WHOA That's Good Podcast - What My Biggest Panic Attack Taught Me | Sadie Robertson Huff | Christian Huff | Levi Lusko

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

Levi Lusko is a pastor, author, and good friend of Sadie and Christian's. Today, he's talking about his brand-new book, Blessed Are the Spiraling. Levi shares about a panic attack—or, as he called it, his "mid-life crisis"—that he experienced several years ago, which started him on a trajectory of seeking truth, God's leading, and inner healing in the years since. He offers tools for stopping the spiral when it's happening and cautions against making big decisions when emotions are high. For anyone who has found themselves in a spiral, you won't want to miss a second of this conversation! Exclusive $35-off Carver Mat at https://AuraFrames.com. Promo Code WHOA https://www.functionhealth.com/WHOA — Try Function and skip the waitlist using my link! https://drinklmnt.com/whoa — Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Conditions apply to all benefits. Visit pcfinancial.ca for details. ["On My Life Now"] ["On My Life Now"] What's up, World That's Good fam? Happy World That's Good Wednesday. I hope you're having a great week, but friends, it is about to get so much better

because we have one of everyone's favorite guests back on the podcast with a brand new book, and I think it's going to help so many people. We have our good friend Levi Lesko back on with a book title that's quite shocking. Blessed are the spiraling, which I love this whole topic of conversation we're gonna be having.

But first off, just welcome back to the podcast Levi. Sadie and Christian, thank you for having me. We love you guys so much. We love y'all. What's new up in y'all's life? Are you still cold tubbing? Are you still running? Tell us about life.

Any new tattoos? All of the above it. I did get a new tattoo, but I got a little leopard right here. See him? Oh, that's cool. But you would laugh, Christian. Today I had, with all the things, and we get so busy, but I was like, I have to work out,

but I didn't have enough time. I was like, I don't have time to change and change. I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna work out on my jeans. And so I did my weights, and then I was like, I would love to run at least one mile. So I was like, but I'm in jeans. I was like, you know what?

I'm just doing it. So I ran a mile in jeans. I was like, you know what? I'm just doing it. So I ran a mile in jeans. I'm wearing a belt buckle that says Montana on it. You should have seen me on my treadmill. I got my mile in. It was like I had 35 minutes to squeeze it all in, but I got it done. I don't know if you've ever run a mile in jeans,

but I don't fully recommend it, but I'm glad I did it. I'm proud of you, though. That's awesome. That's impressive. Way to get it done. Just get it done. Are they skinny jeans or like boot cut jeans? You know, they're kind of right in the middle,

straight fit, they got a little elastic. So that was my saving grace, just a little bit of stretch. I love it. Well, hey, Jenny actually is the one that got me really starting to work out whenever I was visiting you all and she took me to her spin class and that made me fall in love with spin. So you guys are inspiring

when it comes to the workout discipline. But I do really wanna get into this book because we have so much to talk about, so much to cover. Your message at Passion this year was one of my very favorite messages I've ever heard. And I really mean that. I love life advice. That's like what our whole podcast is founded on.

And I love getting advice from people older than me and trying to learn earlier, you know? And so just the heart that you brought to the room by saying like, hey, I didn't really have a lot of people at this age telling me this was so helpful. And now you've written like a whole book, or I guess maybe before that you had written a whole book and we didn't know about it yet,

of just good advice about life and what's going on. And so talk to me a little bit just to start about just why you were ready to share this big message about spiraling and midlife crisis and all the different things that you've been so vulnerable opening up about lately. Mike Hildesbury Oh, you're so, you were so kind right after the message to both of you, but I was actually kind of unsure about that message being the perfect message for passion. But I was talking to some staff members about it because I had been giving that talk, a version of that Alexander the Great and seasons of life and three containers and just kind of that whole roadmap for how to navigate the second half of life.

And mostly I'd been given it in environments where there was guys my age, 40 year old guys, successful business guys, leaders, pastors, and a 20 year old on my staff said, man, that would be the perfect message for passion. And I said, why? He goes, why wait till people are 40 for them to know this is coming?

Tell them early, save us the trouble. And I was like, wow, that's a really good point. So obviously in our prayer talks, I said that was where I was thinking, and Louie was real supportive of it. And then it ended up being one of those things where every single college age 25-year-old, 22-year-old, 18-year-old was saying

it was exactly what I needed to hear, because we do go through transition coming out of college, putting down a jersey in your cleats or your baseball bat or your football for the first. When your final game is over, there's a real identity crisis if your identity has been athlete or cheerleader or sorority girl or whatever. Now all of a sudden, you're transitioning

into the workforce, into being a mom, into having kids. We all struggle in transitions. And that's essentially what Blessed Road Spiraling is. It's a guide for transitions because we feel destabilized. My big spiral moment came when I turned 38. I'm almost 43 now, so it's almost five years ago. And I had a really hard 18 months. I learned a lot.

And when I began to write the book back in 2023, the Lord basically said, I think you're healed enough to start to share some of these lessons. I don't think it's really wise to share too much early in the herding process. You need to heal then. But when you start seeing enough healing

to where you could be generous with it, like Jesus, you can offer your scars to other people. Mm-hmm, man, that is so good. I'm learning that as I go. And that's what I told you after the message. I was like, so much of what you said, I'm kind of going through and I'm learning a lot about right now.

You talked about being a young pastor and like finding your identity and being the young pastor. And then as you got older, kind of coming out of that and that being hard, not even realizing you attach yourself to that. And for me, I was like that. Like everyone was always complimenting me as to like how wise I was at the age I was. And I kind of had this fear, like as I get older, I don't know if I'll still be invited

to these things because is it, am I saying stuff that's really matter or is it just because I'm young or is it just, you know, and I just started getting in my head about like that one aspect. And now I'm like so thankful that my identity wasn't attached to that because yes, I'm still young, but I mean now it's just crazy. Like college students who are 18 are like, oh, I started reading your book when I was like 11.

I'm like, what? Like, you know, I'm starting to not be that young person or it's, I'm not 19, 18 anymore. And that's a good thing. Like, man, thank God I'm starting to not be that young person, or I'm not 19, 18 anymore, and that's a good thing. Man, thank God I'm not. Thank God I've transitioned to where I'm at. But sometimes we fear that transition and what that's gonna mean when we get to attach in our last season of life.

And so so much of what you said, and even what you just said, I'm learning that as I go. Sometimes I will, because we have such a public platform and I'm talking about things publicly I'm currently going with, and I go. Sometimes like I will, because you know, we have such a public platform and I'm talking about things publicly I'm currently going with and I haven't healed from it yet and it's messy and it's confusing.

And so just so much of how you share your life is so helpful to me. When we talk about spiraling, in your book you go through like just, because you kind of nerd out on stuff, which is like the best thing ever, about like spirals in the world and like different things that are in the shape of spirals and stuff.

Can you talk to us about like what a spiral is? And when you say like the people who are spiraling, what does that really look like? Yeah, I think it's really important to see God's sovereign hand. When Job was spiraling, and that's such like cultural language, like I'm having a hard time, I'm confused, I'm asking questions,

Job was doing so because his business was taken away, his health, his kids, all this. He was for sure spiraling, and yet he went to God with his confusion. And his story ends with him blessed, right? Twice as blessed as he was at the beginning. But in the middle, one of the things God says is look up and see the stars. Who called them out by name? Look into the ocean. Who called Leviathan and catches him by

his nose? Who does all these things? And he points him to so many things in nature, the hurricanes, the whirlpools, and all of those things do have spirals in them. You know, tornadoes, the galaxies, even a snail shell, even a wave as it curves in a perfect spiral. And so I think one of the things I'm hoping to do, and the book is not written linear left to right, it's in a circle. So we're coming around and around this content. And I did nerd out for a couple of years on it for sure, Sadie and Christian. And I want to lift people's attention up and to see the bigness and the grandeur of God and hopefully say, hey, I know you're confused

because you've never been here before. You've never been. I have a friend who was spiraling because his daughter went to kindergarten. And he was like, oh my gosh, I'm done with the time where she's just at home all the time. And soon she'll be graduating high school and getting married. And now in his mind, she's already

off with her own family and not returning his phone calls. And he's freaking out. It's like, relax. She's just in kindergarten. But it still is, if it's hurting you, God cares. And God does want to use these things for his good. And so what I'm trying to say to people is continuing to be attitudes.

Blessed are you when you're persecuted. You don't feel blessed, but you are. Blessed are you when you're poor in spirit. Hey, I'd rather be rich in faith. But being poor in spirit develops us. Blessed are those who mourn. I don't want to mourn, but the Bible says that God comes near to broken hearts.

So if I'm broken in heart in the upside down kingdom, I'm actually blessed. So I'm inviting people to say in faith, I choose to rejoice because like Job, I'm going to come out of the spiral better than I went into it. And even though I'd rather win the lottery and get front row parking at the mall and all the things

that we want our life to be like, we actually grow the most in our difficult seasons. That's true. That's true. That's tough. That's true. I didn't know if you, oh, I thought you were about to ask something, sorry. Well, I was about to say you were about to ask something.

You gotta move. At what point, like when you were going through that when you were 38, at what point do you feel like you, like, realize you're in the spiral, come out of the spiral, because you know, most of the time, you know, people always say like, you know, the fastest way to God is to hit rock bottom.

How do you get in the spiral, but not- Get out of it. Yeah. How do you, how do you, you know, consider drawing your face trials in the spiral, but how do you, you know, get out of the, out of the spiral? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was a slow process. You know, I got in it quickly. It hit like, like that. Like I went to bed one night and woke up in a slow process. I got in it quickly. It hit like that.

I went to bed one night and woke up in a panic attack. And I had never had one quite like that. Heart 190 beats per minute, hands sweating. I grabbed my Bible. All the words on the pages were confused. I tried to put on a sermon by our friend, Louie, and it didn't help. I felt more scared.

And I was like, I literally remember thinking, oh my gosh, Ephesians and Louis are not helping me. I'm in big trouble. I'm in trouble. Friends, Mother's Day is around the corner and I wanted to tell y'all about aura frames because it is the best gift you can get your mom. Instead of just a gift,

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can't get you out because that part of your brain's been hijacked. Actually if I would have gone back and coached myself, I would have told myself, deep breathing, singing, or even dancing, strangely enough, those things can actually help you more through a panic attack because they don't involve the same part of your brain that's gotten on fire in the panic attack. But I didn't know why it was happening. There was a number of reasons, partially because of the pace I had been running out for the last 18 years, partially because of some unprocessed wounds from childhood, partially because of, as we mentioned, some of the identity stuff that had gotten hijacked with, you know, me being planning our church at 22, being a pastor when I was so young.

And I didn't mean to, I meant to build my identity on Jesus, but little things creep in along the way. And all of a sudden now little bits of what God's done through me and for me and have become part of how I see me. And so it was quick in and slow out. It was about an 18th month long period where I fully felt like I was out of the clouds of that pit.

But the one year Mark brought some clarity and closure where I feel like I was really of the clouds of that pit. But the one-year mark brought some clarity and closure, where I feel like I was really getting some distance and understanding better what was happening. But in the middle, I just resolved to not make any sudden decisions. I think a lot of people, the reason the midlife crisis trope about the corvette, the divorce, the affair, the quitting the job, whatever, is theirs

because people tend to make their worst decisions in their most severe storms. So what I want people to know is that when you're in it is not the right time to go and do something permanent. Do not make a long-term decision based on a temporary feeling. Do not take your life. Do not get a tattoo.

Do not, you know, so what do you do in the storm? You stick to the plan from the calm. You don't doubt in the shadow what he told you in the sunshine. Keep going, focus on healing, bring the right voices in. Don't trust your objectivity because you might not feel this way a year from now, two years from now, and you might regret a rash decision you make today.

That's so true. One of my favorite pieces of advice my mom has always given me is don't make a really big decision in a crazy time of life because it's so true, that's what you're saying. Because there's so many times where it's like things will get so busy and so crazy, and then you want to make a decision like, OK, well, I'm going to quit that, or I'm going to move,

or I'm going to do this. And it's like, no, because your circumstances right now are feeding all of that. And in a week, you might be out of that. In a month, you might be out of that. In a month, you might be out of that. It's gotta look different. And I look back and I'm super thankful for that advice because it's helped me process things a lot more

in the moment and like, you know, weigh them out a lot better. And then you make a lot better decisions. You kind of talked about how some of it was childhood wounds and different things from the past that were coming up. And it's interesting, because I had a similar panic attack situation

where it woke me up in the night. And that's such an alarming thing when you have like a panic attack weeks before the night. Cause at first you don't know, like you named all the things that you think it was coming from, but you learn that later. You don't realize that in the moment, you know?

And you're like, why is this happening? And then you take time, maybe a good counselor, a good friend, and you start to kind of identify some of those things. And it's so helpful because you can actually kind of get out of it and get to the point where your mind hasn't built up all this for years and you get to the place of attack.

But you had a quote in the book that said, wounds that are concealed cannot be healed. And I was like, whew, that is so good. Which you're so good at those one-liners that you just underline and star and say, well, that's good. Talk a little bit about just some of that because one of the things that I am so thankful for in this book of yours and the things you're sharing

is I think a lot of times, like you've been so honest with you and Jenny's story and losing Linnea and y'all talk about that aspect of life being a hard thing. But sometimes whenever like you get to the point of like talking about one thing in your life, you can just always talk about that one thing that's obviously really hard. But then we don't talk about like all the other things in life that are also really hard and happening. And it's really like a beautiful thing your vulnerabilities say, hey there's like

other stuff that was in my past that I hadn't dealt with that was coming up. What did that process look like for you at 38 years old, going back and healing some of that? And for those listening, who might not be 38 yet, but actually our primary audience is about 20 to 35. So we're kind of in that range. Who haven't dealt with some stuff in the past

that they just think is just gonna be healed by time, but is starting to weigh on them a little bit heavier. What's your advice and how do you go back to that to heal it? Well, there's this great Chinese proverb that says, the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago. And the second best time is today. So if you're listening and you're going,

I'm 20, what I need, I could worry about that later. Let me tell you, if you deal with that tree planting now, you'll be grateful later. And if you are going, oh, dang it, I'm 20, I could worry about that later. Let me tell you, if you deal with that tree planting now, you'll be grateful later. And if you are going, oh, dang it, I'm 35, and I wish I would have gone, well, I would say the second best times today. So no matter what, it's the right time to do some of this work of inner healing.

The Lord wants to bring healing. The Bible says that the wounds of Jesus are there to heal us. By His stripes, you are healed. So it's not just forgiveness. I think a lot of times we limit the cross to forgiveness, the penal substitutionary atonement aspect, meaning we don't have to go to hell because Jesus took

the wrath of God. That's just the beginning. There's this whole process of walking and healing, and that happens cooperatively in community based on the book of James. Confess your sins to one another, not that you would be forgiven, that's Jesus, but that you might be healed.

So that has to happen cooperatively. We have to remember how many times the New Testament says one another, love one another, bear with one another's wounds, all these one another's. Guess how many of those you can do alone? Zero. One another has to be with me and Christian running it out, like bros.

Me and Christian have had a lot of runs together talking about sins, talking about our past, talking about our pain, being honest, praying for each other. I think we have to have community where we can be real. Our good friend Christian Stanfield, like the honesty about the hard stuff he's been through, how his midlife spiral looked like. Phil Wickham, same thing.

Like these are friends in community. You've got the girlfriends. We have to have brothers and sisters. So for me, the coming to connect the dots on some of the things that I needed Jesus to heal, because only Jesus can heal. But we have to process some of this through with gifted counselors who have spiritual gifts of discernment

and biblical-based counseling. But then also, I think, the friendship aspect. So yeah, our daughter went to heaven and that was a big gaping wound. But a big gaping wound, like if you get a gunshot, you're gonna make sure and go to the hospital for a gunshot, right? So I got all the help we needed to process it.

What I didn't realize until it became an issue, because like Mentos and Diet Coke, it starts to burst, is that I had been through some really challenging stuff as a child connected to my mom and dad getting a divorce. But the four and five years before that, before they actually divorced where it was just their marriage was breaking down in our, in our family, but no one really ever talked about it. All that stuff got shoved down to where if you'd have asked me at 25, like, Hey, what did your parents divorce impact you like? And I would have gone, at 25, like, hey, what did your parents' divorce impact you like? And I would have gone, well, it was hard, but not really much of an issue.

Until in this major spiral, I took the time to go through a lot of that childhood processing and do it with a biblical-based counselor and started to connect some dots on like, hey, there's some major patterns in my life that got set into motion, even connecting to my getting addicted to pornography right around that same period of time, that were clear. I can see now coping mechanisms for me to try and avoid the pain that led to other, even ministry, good things that were sort of like my addiction

to different mentors and pushing people away when I felt like they were getting close enough to hurt me. And I just didn't notice those things because we all are blind to our own blind spots. And so what I'm trying to offer people in the book is exactly what you said, just opening your eyes to how you were formed and shaped and how your shadow developed and then letting Jesus's bright light overturn all of those hard things. This is a hypothetical question, but just because I love the title of the book, Blessed are theiraling.

If you would have started the process earlier on, which I think sometimes we can be so quick to want to rush into things after we go through them, what do you think you would have titled the book if you hadn't have let yourself heal those, heal after the time? And what do you feel like maybe some of the content of the book would have been different if you wouldn't have taken that time to really wait three to five years after you'd kind of come out of this. That's an interesting question. Christian, I have done hundreds of interviews

around this book, I have never been asked such a good question. That's a really good question. Bro, you just got your Christopher Nolan on, this is like Tenet, we're like in an alternate universe in the wormhole now. It literally was. Well, because I'm like, if you would have wrote it so soon, I don't think you would have said,

blessed or the spiraling. I would have said blessed. I would have said, the title of the book would have just said, this sucks. Midlife crisis. I quit, right? I don't even know if I would have known it was midlife crisis.

In the midst of it, I was just so hurting and confused, but trying to just, you know, I'm a firm believer in, don't ever trade what you don't know for what you do. So what I do know, I'm a firm believer in don't ever trade what you don't know for what you do. So what I do know, I knew in that moment, God's good and he's gonna bring something good out of this. I just knew that, but I didn't know why. I didn't know that any of this was happening.

I didn't have the closure. I didn't have the clarity. And then coming out of it, it's like coming out of the clouds in an airplane, I was able to look back and see, oh, wow, I was in a fog. I was in a deep pit. The Bible says I was in a horrible pit. He brought me out, put me on a solid rock. In the midst of it, I was able to look back and see, oh, wow, I was in a fog. I was in a deep pit. The Bible says I was in a horrible pit. He brought me out, put me on a solid rock.

In the midst of it, I was confused. I didn't know if you just said, hey, 10 years from now, are you still the pastor of Fresh Life? Are you still preaching? Are you still writing? I would be like, I don't know. But I'm going to just trust God right now. Everything I'm feeling, I'm just going to choose to ignore.

I'm going to believe God's good. He called me. He has a plan. I'm believing I'm in a messy middle or in a wilderness. Kind of like John the Baptist, who even called Jesus and said, did we make a mistake? Are you really the Messiah? And what did Jesus say?

Blessed is he who is not offended because of me. John was spiraling, and Jesus said, you're blessed. And I believe when we're spiraling, God's calling us blessed. We just can't hear it yet. And so in the midst of it, I would never have had any conclusions to come to about that. I would just have pointed to you, hey, the cross is still

true, the God is still good, even when you're confused, he's good. And if I go back and look at some of my preaching in that season, there was a lot of that, where I'm just having to choose to just in faith keep pointing to God's goodness. And I believe everything I said there, I wasn't willing to open up some of this stuff

because it was still in process. I was talking to trusted, wise friends and voices, but not just everybody. And so, when I got to a place, I wasn't fully out of it, but when I got to a place where I was seeing, okay, there's enough here, I started to bottle up some of the things because I knew I wasn't the only one who was going through stuff like that. Yeah, I love that. I have like a question on this because I think that, I think this is gonna help everybody, but I actually really need the advice on this too. Cause you talk about like going through all these hard things

while you're leading a public ministry. Like obviously when you're 38, you are pastor at church and you're going through this and you continue doing it. Not everybody's leading a public ministry, but everybody has a public life in some way or another. You're showing up places. And I feel like it is really hard to know the balance of like showing up and continuing leading something

or doing something when you're struggling. And like there's a time and a place for telling people what you're going through, but then not faking it and not struggling in private. Like, I just feel like it's kind of hard to discern how to do that well. I guess hindsight, do you think you're like, yeah, that's how I would do it again?

Are there ways that different things you would have done as you struggled so deeply personally and then had such a public life of leadership? Yeah, no, I think, Sadie, I think we all have to listen to the Holy Spirit and Christian guide us through the healthy compartmentalization. Unhealthy compartmentalization is what you said, faking, pretending. And I think sometimes we can, in the name of that, we can open up messy wounds that need to be healed instead of the healed scars that need to be shared.

Jesus took healed scars and showed them and shared them. And I think, so like if Jenny and I are having a tough morning and having a heart, we can put a pin in that and not go bleed on our people or use the church like it's therapy. We know we're going to stick to our vows. We're going to work this out. We're not happy with where this is at. But we're choosing to serve the people. I'm not going to get up in the pulpit and be like, well,

I want to be real. So hey, Jenina had a big fight and I'm not even sure how it's all going to work out. That's not helpful. Jesus had different levels of transparency for the 500, the 70, the 12, the 3. He was best friends with Lazarus. So I kind of like to think that he could be like,

let his hair down around Lazarus, because it says he loved him and he was a friend. And Lazarus wasn't an apostle. He was a businessman. So maybe he could be like, man, my HR issues are tough. And Jesus is like, I know. Tell me about it. James and John are driving me crazy.

So I think we have to have safe places to vent. And so I think that's why, if you treat your ministry or your church like it's your therapist, get a therapist. Bless the people, point them to God, then resolve your own issues with your friends, with your safe community. And so I think we're being like Jesus

and knowing Jesus knew all men knew what was within man. And so he didn't reveal himself fully to everybody. That's great. I love that. We literally had this conversation last night. So I was like, that's so good. I love that so much. One of the things that you just touched on too, a minute ago was John the Baptist.

And I loved your perspective reading this on his life and the context of a spiral, because I feel like, you know, when I'm reading, when you're reading the Bible, especially when you're getting John the Baptist, like the emphasis is on Jesus, you know? So I'm not, when you're reading the Bible, especially when you're getting John the Baptist, like the emphasis is on Jesus, you know? So I'm not really thinking about what John was going through personally. And then I'm like, man, that actually would have been

so hard, can you just share with our listeners? And let me say too, you gotta go read the book because the way you break everything down, I want you to give all in a way on the podcast, but I just think that's such a good perspective and, you know, I don't know, everything you said about it, I love. So give our listeners a little insight

of your insight on John the Baptist. Well, you're so kind. I compare John the Baptist as a one man Coachella because he's out in the desert eating weird food dressed strangely and the whole crowds come to him, right? At the beginning, he's like, he's so wild. He's wearing camel skin, eating bugs and honey and crowds of people to hear him.

And that would be disorienting. You spend your whole life lonely. You take in this Nazarite vow. You've just dedicated your life to God. Then how would it feel to have thousands of people wanting? He basically became an influencer, right? Everyone wants to get baptized by him, see him. Even soldiers and Pharisees are coming out.

And then all of a sudden, he does the most important job of his life, which is to baptize his cousin. And now, even some of his own disciples start following Jesus. The crowds start following. The attention goes to Jesus. And you know some of his disciples that did stay with him are like, come on, teacher.

Let's do something to go viral again. We need to reattain the level of influence. Our posts aren't getting to as many people. They said, Jesus's followers are baptizing more than us. And what did John say? He said, he must increase, I must decrease. And hopefully, we'll all have that level of maturity when inevitably in life, no matter what,

you can't sustain peak influence forever. Christians, biceps at 80, they're not going to look like they do today, right? Whatever we might do, I'm not going to have the level of ability to preach and travel. None of what we can do at 20, 30, right, in midlife is the same as 70, 80. So John's was just shrunk down to a compressed timetable.

But he offers all of us a glimpse into the necessary death in order to see Jesus's magnification like we all should want to. But then, having passed that test, he goes to prison. And in prison, he starts to really get low. And it seems like he's confused and doubting, and he sends that message.

Are you really the Messiah? And that's such a haunting question. Did I make a mistake? What's going on? Why am I here? How has this happened? And then Jesus, of course, calls him blessed. And there's that whole dialogue about how John's the greatest man ever born among women. He feels like he made a mistake, but he's like, no, no, no, bro, you have no idea. You hit it on the head and you're good. And the blind are seeing and the deaf are hearing and blessed is he who's not offended because of me."

Wow. That's so good. Two kind of off-topic questions, but going off John the Baptist. Have you ever read up or studied on that some people think that John the Baptist was Jesus' rabbi? I've never heard that. That's wild. Yeah, it's interesting. Well, because at the time people talk about how with Jesus' like his illegitimate birth, he wouldn't have been proper schooling. And people think that, you know, because there's the, the Essings and then a lot of Jesus' kind of philosophy kind of goes off of that. And then it's kind of why Jesus' ministry really starts after

John the Baptist kind of goes to prison and gets beheaded. So, that was just kind of like a sidebar. Sidebar. Sidebar. The interesting thing about John the Baptist was that, so John the Baptist only baptized people in the places where Elijah did his miracles. So, I just was kind of going off. Bro, there's a lot there. I'll have to Google that later. I'll have to nerd out on the Four Eight Men podcast

about that. I'll follow up on it. I'll follow up on John the Baptist study. I remember back in the day, whenever, you know, my life, I was truly like dedicating my life to the Lord. And this is when I was like 17, 18. And I'd already had like a following up to that point because of our family's TV show

and this with the stars and stuff like that. And I remember feeling like, okay, if I go like full on ministry, like I'm totally gonna lose this following and realizing like I'm okay with that because this is what the Lord is calling me into. And I felt like it was out of this public eye, kind of following influencer thing.

And I surrendered that. I was like, okay, go for it. And then it's so amazing because God actually used that, like me really giving my life to the Lord and every influence I have is to bring people to Christ and all these different things and elevated my platform, which I really wasn't expecting at all. But at the same time, I'll hold it loosely because I'm like, it's not always going to be there in this way and in this context. And it's not always like, yeah, the videos aren't always going to

go viral or hit or connect with the young audience and whatnot. And that's okay. But this is where God has me in this song, using my influence, but it's for His glory. He must increase, I must decrease. And so just like relating to John the Baptist in that sense, I never have seen it like that or thought about like that. And I feel like in this book, like you bring up so many different people in the Bible, like you're bringing up David, you're bringing up Job,

you're bringing up John the Baptist, you bring up Solomon, you bring up so many different people. Did this study of this concept just awaken you to a whole new perspective of these people, too? As you studied the Bible, was it coming alive to you in different ways? As you were nerding out, were you actually

getting excited about the things you were learning and seeing in a new way? Without a doubt. Without a doubt. And I love what you're saying. And I hope God continues to elevate both of your podcasts and platforms and influence, because you guys have that heart for Jesus.

But I think we all have to go, but if He didn't, how would I pass that test? But if it went down, how would I handle that? I was talking to Demi Tebow about how she had to give back the crown of Miss Universe and how hard it was to hand the crown over to the next person to go, OK, this crown literally is not mine. I don't have a crown.

It's now on your head. And I think Jesus did the miracle of the feeding of the 4,000 after the 5,000. And the human part of me goes, oh my gosh, I would way rather have you go to 6,000, Jesus, 7,000, right? I want everything to be up and to the right, growing and growing and growing. And everything can't. and if it doesn't,

and when he chooses to, okay, hey, now, what about when you're in a wheelchair? What about when you're in an old folks home? What about when I can't do, do I still have? And I think that's the test of our identity. And to your question, I found positive and negative examples of midlife crisis all over the Bible.

The more I started to look at spiraling and turning into blessing, the more I, it's like when you start looking for a Honda Accord, that's all you see on the road is a Honda Accord. Right? So I started to look for spirals and crises turning into blessing and I found them everywhere,

both positive like Jacob who wrestled with God till his hip was broke and then he was blessed out of that spiral of wrestling. But then I also found Saul, who I think is the best example in the Bible, King Saul, of a midlife crisis gone wrong, where the energy that could have humbled him and taken him to the next level of leadership and influence, actually he was destroyed by his crisis because he spiraled into jealousy and envy. And he started getting so mad when they said, David has slain his tens of thousands,

but it's all only his thousands. So he liked being the one everyone sang about. He liked being the one popping off on the TikTok. But once someone else went more viral than him, he was envious instead of saying, praise God. David, may you go on and do great things, and may I be a part of it. And instead of trying to open up doors,

he was trying to like sabotage and talk bad about David and bring him down. And so I saw in that picture such an example of hopefully what we can avoid if we can find the blessing of God inspiring, find the death that leads to resurrection, deny ourselves, pick up our cross, and become Yoda, and not just want to be Luke Skywalker forever.

So good. That's so great. I love that. There is a quote in the book that I thought was really good. And it was kind of this like invitation to the readers of like, hey, you can change your life. Like, there is never too late. There's never a time that you can't

decide to change what you're doing and the way your life looks like. And I think that was really good advice that some people need to hear, like changing a career path, changing a different day. So like, I love how there's so much to the spiral where it's like, okay, don't go crazy, don't change everything, stay the course, stay.

But then like, when is the time that you go, okay, maybe my life does need to change a little bit and it's okay to start a new adventure or go down a whole new path. What does that look like? okay, maybe my life does need to change a little bit and it's okay to start a new adventure or go down a whole new path. What does that look like? Yeah, great question. I think when we are at a healthier, saner moment, you know, and you can, one of the ways to test that is like,

if you're at a place where you can see the beauty in a flower, like you're better, you know what I'm saying? Like when you're in a panic attack, you're not noticing, oh, there's the bird singing and there's the tree and like, but when you're healthy, when you're better. You know what I'm saying? Like when you're in a panic attack, you're not noticing, oh, there's the bird singing and there's the tree. But when you're healthy, when you're well, when you've worked through that in community and the spiritual advisors in your life are like, you know, I see healing in you.

I think, and then you're like, I still feel maybe a sense of a career changer. I still feel like in the books example, my friend who's a rancher became an electrician. And that's good. That can be a part of that next season of life and approaching the second half. For us, it was launching a youth conference.

I'd always said, oh, I don't want to do a conference because every church does a conference. But we really, in our season of spiraling, one of the things that we started to really feel like was a sense of a call to reach out to junior highers and high school students, partially because I got saved in middle school and high school, right between middle school and high school. And I was like, man, I need to pay it forward

and do something to reach young people in our region. And so many of the great teenage conferences, Motion, Passion Camp, all these conferences for young people forward, they're all in the southeast. And God broke my heart for our region, the Northwest, the Rocky Mountain area. And so to put on a youth conference for young people. And when we were healthy and coming out of that,

we still felt that call. And so it was almost a chance to be reborn in a new season of development and put something out there for God to bless. Great. I love that so much. And for everyone who has not gone to their conference, you gotta go this year.

It is the end of July and I'm dying because I was supposed to speak, but I am literally having a baby three weeks after that. So I have to postpone, but I'm gonna be there next year, which I'm so excited about. And I just love what you're doing. And similar to us, like we felt very called to do our conference here in Monroe.

And people were like, why would you do a conference in Monroe? There's not enough hotel rooms. There's not enough Ubers. There's really not enough anything. And we felt called to. We felt burdened to, because there's none of that here. You have to travel to Atlanta.

Which isn't far. But for some people, it is. It's not accessible. What's been amazing is, one, we've had our community rally for some people it is, it's not accessible. It was been amazing is like, one, we've had our community rally around it, we've had so many local people, but then we had people travel from all over the world, which was like an unexpected blessing, which is so cool.

And so yeah, you gotta, I love that. So much of what you said is like, you have to discern where the spirit really is leading you. And it's hard to discern that when you are spiraling and when you're in the chaos. So lean in, get the wisdom, get the counselor's advice, all the different things. Then when you come out and when you can hear clearly,

when you can see clearly, that's when you can be confident this is truly from the Lord. So I love that advice. Christian, you got anything else on your mind? Yeah, I was gonna say, how, I know you kind of talked about this a little bit in the book, but for the person listening who is kind of wrestling about this a little bit in the book, but for the person listening who is kind of wrestling

with that idea of the spiral because of, you know, it's not, you know, it's less circumstantial. It's more they're wrestling with the shame of something and they're in a spiral because of a decision that they made. How do you kind of speak to the person who's in a spiral because of a circumstance that happened in their life versus someone who's kind of speak to the person who's in a spiral because of a circumstance that happened in their life versus someone who's kind of dealing with that regret or shame of being

in a spiral because of a decision that they made? Yeah, that's great. No, I mean, some of it can be self-induced and I definitely feel some of that like in what many of my spirals, we are all complicit in our own suffering, right? So something doesn't have to be your fault to be your responsibility. So it wasn't my fault. My parents got divorced, but that did impact me. So I needed to deal with it. But there were also some things I needed to address in people pleasing in my attention,

my focus, my saying yes to everything because of a need to be the hero. For example, two weeks ago I got a text message saying, can you come to South Africa in two weeks and speak to 8,500 teenagers and it would be a great opportunity? A previous version of me would have been like, let's do it. The calendar where it is, I'm in Oklahoma and Atlanta this week. I was in seven cities last week. There's all this going on.

It's not the right decision for my family, for my heart, for my church, for me to go off to Africa and do this because I wouldn't be able to stay there and recover from the jet lag. I would have to literally land, preach, get on the plane, which I've done two other times. And so for me, that's sin. That's the sinfulness in my heart of needing the validation and needing

the adrenaline of that. And so that is partially what got me into the season of being too overwhelmed because I was saying yes to too many things like Martha, which leads to anxiety instead of the better part of sitting at Jesus's feet and knowing, hey, if I don't go to South Africa, guess what? They're going to invite someone else. You know what they did? They went down. I probably wasn't even the first call. It was probably because Chad Beach or Rich Walker Center, Sadie said no, or Christian said no. So they got to me. And you know what they're going to do? They're going to go down the list and invite the next 10 preachers who are on their list in their scramble session to fill this lot. So it becoming my emergency and pulling me away from the better things.

A part of my hopefully strategy for the second half is saying yes to what God has actually called me to do. Being comfortable saying no, just as much as yes, not needing to be the hero or the people pleaser and happily sitting at the feet of Jesus and being there with Lennox when he's done with school for the day. That is so good. That just made me think of this story because same for me, I would say yes to all these things and not realizing that it was coming from a place in my heart that was wanting the validation or wanting to be seen in that room or scenario and whatnot. And actually, there was a moment recently

where I was kind of like, whoa, I just kind of saw it for what it was, where this person that I admire from afar and look up to and have always learned a lot from, and this was not this person's fault, and I'm definitely not going to say the name, but it was just an eye-opening thing. So they asked me to like do something for them. Like their team had said,

so and so wants you to be a part of doing this interview and blah, blah, blah for this new project they have coming out. And back in the day, it would have been like, yes, like a hundred percent, just because it was that person that asked. Well, it really didn't make sense for my schedule and my time, all of this different stuff,

same thing, I looked at the calendar and I was like, I really can't do it. And I felt so bad for saying I can't do it, but I was like, I really, I really just can't. And so anyways, we said no. Well, then they said, okay, well, could you do like a little Instagram live or just something, whatever? And I was like, yeah, like we can probably make that happen as opposed to me traveling and doing all this stuff. Well, I was going to get on the call,

and it was kind of like this, like a Riverside situation. It wasn't Instagram. It was some podcast thing or something. So I was going to get on the call. Well, the person didn't realize I was on yet. So this is the person that I looked up to who I think has asked me to do this thing. She's on a phone call telling her team.

She's so annoyed. She's like, and call telling her team, she's so annoyed. She's like, and they only were asking her because they want someone with a big social media following and blah, blah, blah. Doesn't know I'm on the phone. And I'm just listening and I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm so glad I said no, because in my mind, I'm thinking this person asked for me.

And I just got to hear her say her team wanted me because of my following. And she's like, that doesn't even make sense. She's actually kind of deficient. It doesn't make sense for her to drop. Like she's having this whole conversation. So then I'm kind of like, okay, how do I let her know I'm here? Just wait for them to get off the call.

And then like later I come in and I'm like, hey, we could see you. But it was just such a lesson for me and such confirmation. And not saying yes is something for the wrong reasons. Not saying yes just because of a person or a place or for someone to think you're cool, but really doing it because you feel like this is where I need to be and this is where I don't need to be.

And having kids really helped me with that because now I feel like accountable, you know, to my time. And at the end, it just made me be a lot more intentional with my yeses and my nose. But you don't have to wait till you have kids to be accountable to the places you're going, the things you're doing and your why behind them. Like it's so important. And so that was a good little wake up call for me.

Wow. Yeah, that makes me feel uncomfortable, like orange juice and brushing your teeth. It was really awkward. I was like, whoa, this is very. But it's a good reminder for all of us. The Lord is listening all the time, right? Uncomfortable, yes, absolutely. And she never knew us all that and never needs to know.

She wasn't trying to be mean when she said it. She was frustrated with her team for asking me to do that. But anyways, it's just wild. I think this book, I said this at the beginning, it's gonna help so many people. I know it's gonna help so many people. I'm curious to know how much it's helped you. I know in the past few years,

you've had a lot of really hard things happen, like losing your dad. And we were so blessed and honored to get to see your dad at Passion. You talk about this, about him singing Agnus Dei with everyone and standing to his feet even with cancer. And I'm so thankful, Levi, as a friend that I got to be in the room to see that. And it was just beautiful. But with the context of all that you've been studying and all that you've been writing, how has it helped you in your life already with the things in life that you've been going through?

Immensely, immensely. And yeah, that was a moment I'll never let go of. I'll hold onto that till my death. But the big spiral I wrote about from the perspective of 38 is done. There's blessing already coming out of that, right? Every person who reads it and gets in career, that's already a blessing from that spiral.

But now I'm in a new one. And I think that's the thing, is that we're going to continue to face new spirals. And so I guess the way the book is helping me today, because we just had to face the one-year anniversary of my dad's death. And so I'm in a new grief mode. I'm in a new broken mode.

I'm in a new challenging mode. But the testimony of the God who saved me from the lion and the bear tells me he can save me from the paw of the uncircumcised Philistine. So every past victory we emerge from gives us a new level of confidence. It's the testimony to help overcome in the next spiral. So I'm today encouraged facing what I'm up against today.

And hopefully, everyone listening feels every past victory God brought me through is one more reason to trust Him right now. That's great. Well, Liva, I'm personally so inspired, so encouraged by the message that you're putting out. Again, your passion message is one of my very favorites. If you haven't listened to it, go listen to it. And you got to buy this book. You will be so blessed, as we've said many, many times. And thank you for just your vulnerability to share. Every time I even just have moments like this to interview you, I'm like,

can let me think of the questions I need to ask for my personal life, because you're just such a great example. You and Jenny both and your whole family, she's wonderful. So thanks for being back on the podcast. We will, I'm sure, have you back in the future with all the things that you got going on.

So good. Well, literally, anytime. And I think we're locked you in for Movement Compass 2026. So we will get out there. Christian and I are gonna hike a mountain and cold plunge on the top of it. And you can do a spin class with Jenny and the kids can paddleboard down a river.

It'll be a blast. It'll be the greatest thing ever. It will be a blast. Oh, if the listener does want to, the first couple chapters are free at blessedorthespiraling.com. It's like the sample at Costco. And if they like it, the chimichangas are on aisle 17.

That's awesome. Definitely check that out. Well, thank you so much, Levi. You're the best. Love you guys. Love you. We love you. you