WHOA That's Good Podcast - When God Repeats Himself, Start Listening | Sadie Robertson Huff & Levi Lusko

Episode Date: March 23, 2022

Author, pastor, and NASA enthusiast Levi Lusko elaborates on how outer space can help us to see how God's love is greater than the deepest, darkest parts of our inner space. Sadie and Levi discuss the true meaning of communion, whether it's OK for believers to drink, and why we have to start with crawling if we want to fly. You may never see the moon the same way again! "The Last Supper on the Moon" by Levi Lusko is available now. - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up with it's good fam welcome back to the WoW Let's Go podcast y'all today we have another special guest who has been on the podcast before but don't worry I have heard that he has another piece of advice for us we have Levi Lusco and we're going to be talking about his new book I have it right right here. The last supper on the moon First of all how cool is this cover and even just this whole Massive book but leave that I'm so excited to have you on and can't wait to talk about it Sadie, thanks for having me back. You're the best. Yeah, okay, so I hear you have another piece of advice for us So give us our world. That's good moment of the podcast absolutely

So I would say that someone early on in my walk with Jesus told me, no matter where else you're reading in the Bible, mix in the Psalms and Proverbs. Because the Psalms you have that heart of worship and the Proverbs of course wisdom and who doesn't need more wisdom. So, no matter if you're in James, if you're in Matthew, throwing a little Psalms and Proverbs. Okay, well that's good. And also, well, that is exactly what you did with this book. You've mixed in so much of the Psalms,

and it was so cool, which actually we'll just go straight into it from this point, because I was gonna ask you about this one Psalm that you talked about from David. And you talk about how when you look at the moon, you have this just crazy experience. That I actually wrote down the words that you said. You said, I feel the pool of the moon. It speaks to me, it calls to me, it dares me to dream, it invites me to live fully. When I look at the sky at the night and see the moon like wonder the explosion of the stars that asked God, how is it that you even notice me and you go on to talk about just how David had that same thought of like

Who who is man that you would even be mindful of us and so gosh even just your description of that was so beautiful And so gripping and it made me look up It made me want to feel that and so talk to me about just when it started, if you even remember, when you just became fascinated by the moon and reading the Bible in that same context of seeing that these same people look at the moon just as you do in your everyday life. Well, you know, there was a time, Sadie, when people thought that the moon made you sick, and if you've ever heard the word lunatic, we say someone's a lunatic, that literally means lunar sickness. And it was believed the moon the word lunatic, we say someone's a lunatic, that literally means lunar sickness.

And it was believed the moon could make you crazy. That being bathed in moonlight would mess you up. Now of course, we know that's not true. Even though ER nurses do say that there's a higher rate of weird incidents and accidents on nights that are full moon, which, you know, whether that is the tide or being pulled on with gravity is part of, or it could just be like a placebo type of a thing, or maybe on full moon nights, people can see better to do stupid things, I guess.

But the moon has always been there. In our whole lives, we kind of just take it for granted that it's gonna be there. But there is so much power in it, and like you referenced in the Bible, God specifically has attached his faithfulness to the constant of the moon, that we can know the North Star is going to be there. We can know the moon is going to show up.

We can know when it's going to be waxing, crescent, new moon, full moon, no moon, right? We can set our watch to it. But because of that, it's dangerous that we can kind of take it for granted. It's always going to be there. But I think what we're supposed to do is when we look up and see it, be reminded of who God is, how powerful He is. And like David did, just be blown away, like to say literally, whoa, that's good. That is impressive.

And I think it's settling and calming. And to your specific question, I don't know exactly when for the first time I realized that, but I know that when someone told me that there had been a communion service that had happened on the moon, that stopped me dead in my tracks. And it was in 2019 and a friend said, you know, the first thing that was ever eaten on the moon was communion. And I said, no, there's no way that's true. But I got, I googled it as fast as I could say to you and I was like it's true buzz Aldrin Brought bread and wine with him on Apollo 11 and sat there in his lunar capsule the eagle and Eight the bread drank the wine and then read John 155 which Jesus said I am the vine you were the branches that beautiful verse

Wow and say it exploded in my heart. And like many people in 2020, I was having my own mental health issues, just dealing with the craziness of the world, life changing so much. And I started for the first time in my life, having these weird panic attacks at bedtime, where I would just get really overwhelmed.

And one of the things, I talked to my doctor, talked to pastors, prayed with my wife, was vulnerable, but one of the things that really helped me doctor, talked to pastors, prayed with my wife, was vulnerable. But one of the things that really helped me was I would go out into our back deck and look at the moon. Wow. And the thought occurred to me, that's the same moon Abraham looked at, the same moon Esther looked at. And then it hit me really hard. That's the same moon that Jesus looked at when he was on the earth. For whatever reason, that just really comforted me.

Wow. that when he was on the earth. For whatever reason, that just really comforted me. So my hope and prayer is that this book would be for people who read it and experience it, that they would never see the moon the same way again. Yeah, man, it's so powerful. I thought about this time in my life. This is just kind of one of those funny things that you think about. You know how you'll sometimes remember thoughts

that you had when you were a kid, and they're just funny thoughts. And I remember whenever I was little, for some reason, and I know this makes zero sense, but when I was really little, I would look up at the moon and I thought that that was the earth because it looks like the earth and I just thought somehow we're standing on the earth,

but we also can see the earth in the sky. And that's just how your mind is a kid works. It all makes sense, even though it makes no sense. And so this was just a funny thought. Well then fast forward years later in my life and I was like 17, 18 maybe. And I was just not living a great life. Like honestly, I was just living kind of a double life

and a lot of different things. I was in a relationship with a group of people that was pretty toxic that I wasn't really honest about with my family or my close people. It was just not a good time. And I remember just the exhaustion of living this double life had me honestly depressed. And I was driving home one night and I've never had suicidal thoughts like that, but I just remember feeling like this kind of want to just, for it to just end.

I was like, I almost just kind of hope I get in a wreck tonight and it just ends. And I know that's like a horrible, dark thing, but just honestly where I was at. And as I'm having these thoughts and I'm crying, I can hardly even see the road, I looked up at the moon, and the silliest thing, I just happened to remember the thought I used to have when I was a kid. And I don't know why I thought that it just kind of threw me off enough to think,

God, what was that, you know? And I'm looking up at the moon, and I feel God just speak to my heart not audibly but enough to where you could not hear it. And my car by myself and it was just the world is so much bigger than this one moment, Sadie. Your life is so much bigger than this one moment. And you're like look up at the moon, it's bigger than you think. And I think that that was kind of like the idea of used to, I thought that the moon was earthen, it looked really small. But really, it's actually really big.

And my life was a lot bigger than that moment. And I should remember having this moment with myself, thinking if I end it now, then so many people in life, and I wasn't even talking about famous, I was talking about life in general, like friends, family members are going to live a different life because of a decision that I were to make this night that I was having.

And I just remembered the moon humbling me to such a place that it put life into perspective for me. It made me realize that my feelings were driving something that the truth wasn't in my life. And it obviously changed things. I had no one else in the car with me, no mentor, no friend, no mom. I literally had me in the moon. And so when I read that, I was like, well, like, I honestly feel the exact same way. And it's not, I'm not a space person, but now I am because of your book.

I've never been super into that, but I have always been really drawn to the moon. And it has humbled me and taught me and put life into perspective for me. And so I just think it's so cool that you're writing about this. And I want to hear more about why. I love that you just shared that part about hearing about community and that was a beautiful way to even start the book. But when was it that you thought, okay, I'm going to tackle this huge project and write this book that is honestly so different than your other books and really any other book that's out there.

Yeah, it's funny. It's like icy pictures. You know, the picture of Buzz sitting there with blood and wine representing blood and red representing Jesus' body. And just the monumental statement that makes of the beginning. That's the beginning of lunar, you know, like there's right now preparation to go back, but that's the beginning.

That was the ultimate, that's Neil Armstrong's small step. And the small step started with this, this, this, this, this communicator, which is so important that Jesus did it before he went to the cross. And he told us as his followers, do this often in remembrance of me. You know, communion is so important and it speaks to how we could be right with God and how we could be whole. And I think sometimes we miss out on how important the cross is. You know, it's not just our ticket to heaven.

It's the Bible says Colossians puts it this way, it's the beginning of the reconciliation of all things unto themselves. Every part of the cosmos, all of the heavens and the earth, every part of creation will be reconciled to how it was supposed to be. This is Eden regained. And that just, that doesn't just apply to the Grand Canyon

and to the Great Barrier Reef and, you know, the Milky Way, but say to you and me and Christian, Jenny, and Honey, and Clover, like all of our, I just, by the way, made a connection that you have a dollar named Honey and I have a dollar named Clover, and there's also Clover Honey, so that's pretty funny. That's awesome. They definitely need to be in the same room at the same time.

Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be friends. Be at the resurrection of Jesus that work began, it was the first domino tipping over. And when Jesus comes again, the last domino tips over. But in between, God is subduing and bringing us back to Him, conforming us to the image of His Son. So the cross is everything. It's not the ABC of Christianity. It's the A to Z of Christianity. And I think sometimes we think, well, that's good that the cross got me started. The cross began, it's like through the cross is all of us, we live and move and have our being in him. So, the thought and the reason I think this book was so important

for me personally was outer space is an analogy that gives me the permission to talk about inner space. Because there are parts of my heart and soul that are dark and mysterious and intimidating. And so I think there's a good analogy in the cross as the thing that bridges the gap from where we are to where we're meant to be and where we ultimately will be. And the big rocket that it took and the massive amount of people working on it that it took to get us to the moon. So I'm trying to use these,

I'm trying to utilize space as a metaphor so that we can have a frame of reference to actually talk about the cross in a way that hopefully helps us all with our inner battles. Yeah, man, you do such a good job at it, honestly, because it's like this big idea of space, but then you make these like super practical statements. Like I love this one point that you're making.

And there's a bigger point to this and you tell a story and I want you to talk about it, but just the statement, you gotta crawl before you can fly. And I just love that. That's a way that's a good piece of advice for me. That's something that will stick with me. You gotta crawl before you can fly, but you're taking these great analogies

and putting them to play. So tell us a little bit about the lesson behind that. Yeah, I mean, the most powerful rocket that's ever been launched is the Saturn V rocket. And if you get on YouTube and look at Apollo 11 takeoff, you'll see this huge black and white rocket. It's very famous. You've seen the footage a million times.

It's 360 feet tall. It has 180 million horsepower. When it takes off, it generates enough electricity that could run New York City for an hour. It's crazy, okay? Big old rocket. But how does it get to the launch pad? Because they build it in the vehicle assembly building

in Cape Canaveral, Florida at the Kennedy Space Center. And it's huge building. They build it there and has these big doors that open and it has to come out and travel to the launch pad, pad 39A, and to get there, it crawls. They built a vehicle called the crawler. And they assemble the rocket on this crawler to huge tank the size of a baseball field and it sits vertically on it and it crawls like a mile,

I think it's a mile an hour or something so slow. It's just barely moving, but funnily enough the driver still wears a seatbelt going that slowly, because obviously they don't want it to tip over so they go so slow. Oh wow. And I just thought wow, how funny this thing

eventually travels 17,000 miles per second or something ridiculous, but it starts by crawling. And that's just a great parallel because we all wanna fly. Or 17,000 miles per hour. We all wanna fly, but you have to start by crawling. So today's the day to take that baby step, to take that first step towards sharing your faith

or getting into a small group, or whatever it is, the transformation you want, it starts smaller than you think. That's great, man. It's so good. You have so many moments like that in the book. There's a part of the book where you actually say, hey, look, if you're not going to make it through this whole book

because it's really big, then read this chapter in this chapter in this chapter in this chapter and you say it really confidently because you're like, I know that it's so good, you're going to want to read the whole thing. And I have to attest to that because, you know, I'm not much of a, I used to not be much of a reader, I've become a really, I love reading, but sometimes big books intimidate me. I think they intimidate most people. But I didn't wanna skip any chapters

because there's no sleepy chapter. Like there's no sleepy sentence. Like everything is a parallel and analogy that outer space, you know, into the inner space. Like you don't wanna miss the next moment. And I just think that's so cool. And I think it's so fascinating, just how much you know. I remember whenever we were at

the passion meeting like the pre-pastion moment when we were all at the beach and we were talking about passion and praying and um Lou we referenced you as like the human encyclopedia or something like you you know all these things and it was really funny because because I know you but not well enough to know that you know all of these facts. And then whenever I heard your pastime message, I was like, man, like he really is. Like he knows like history so well and then I'm reading this book and I'm like, oh my gosh. And so just a little bit of backstoring your life. Like, have you always been that person that's just loved history, loved facts, and I love how you even include in the book some of your little tics.

Just tell us a little about who you are because I feel like people are listening to this. How does this guy know all this stuff? That's hilarious. Well, if you talk to my high school history teacher, they probably would never have thought I would end up writing a book about history or speaking or being known for being a human encyclopedia because I did not apply myself in school at all. It's really become, it's been afterwards. It's been just a fire god ignited in me about, you know, what did it begin? You know, I guess I read a book called The Right

Stuff, which is now Disney Plus made a series of episodes for kids you could watch. It's all about space travel. And I read that, and that, because I wanted to do a series on the Holy Spirit, that's what it was. And when I read that book, because the Holy Spirit is kind of like a rocket, you know, that was where the analogy

first started, the seed was planted. And so I read that, and you know, just kind of like one thing led to another, like I read that, and I didn't, I think for me the thing was planted. And so I read that. And it's just kind of like one thing led to another. I read that and I think for me, the thing was 80, and I know I'm rambling here. I couldn't be assigned a book by a teacher. I had to wanna read it for myself. That's so easy.

And I guess there's different learning styles. But for some reason, the idea of busy work or I have to do this, I chafed that. So I guess maybe to every parent or teacher out there, you figure out what makes a kid tick and maybe reverse psychology, tell them they don't have to read it. I chafed that. So I guess maybe to every parent or teacher out there, you figure out what makes a kid tick and maybe reverse psychology. Tell them they don't have to read it. You know, I don't know.

That's literally so big because I almost said, I don't like to read. I'm like, who, what am I talking about? I read all the time. But when I was in school, I really didn't like to read because I really struggled to read the books that they chose. And also, I didn't know this at the time

that I was dyslexic. I found that out later in life And so then I was like, oh, that's why I learned differently just like why now I love to because I'm listening to the book on audio So it's not such a hard thing for me to read actually because I love learning like I want to learn and the book on Audio is so cool because you included some of the real live moments in history where the actual people are speaking and it's like, oh man, it's just so fun to listen to. And so that is a really good point that if you're in high school or in college right now and nothing's really clicking for you, you're not loving something, don't worry. I feel like once you get passionate about the what you're going to do in life,

then you get really excited about doing it. going to do in life, then you get really excited about doing it. You can't stop reading, you can't stop learning. That's in life gets really exciting. I feel like I want to ask you about just the meaning behind the word NASA, because when I read that in the book, I was like, oh, I bet you geeked out when you read that. So tell us about the meaning behind NASA and the connection. I think I fell out of my chair, say it honestly.

And thank you for those kind words. I reiterate that back. I have such respect for you as a communicator, the way you've taken a weakness, right? You're being dyslexic. Dislexic, yeah, I'm trying to find the word. And turn that into such a strength, because I know that personally, you've shared with me, it has made you want to memorize your message as more than sit there and reading from notes. And what that has done is when I watch you,

preach like when you preach a passion, you're not looking down at notes, you're looking right into the camera, you're speaking right to people, you're, you know, and there's such a warmth that has come from that. And I think if you weren't dyslexic, you might when you preach look down at notes more. So it's almost like, and that's one of the things I'm trying to communicate in the book is that you can take the dark side of your moon and make it your superpower. It's awesome. For me, weirdness, like with whatever way I'm weird, you know, I'm trying to help people see we're super power. It's awesome. For me, weirdness, with whatever way I'm weird, I'm trying to help people see we're all weird.

You are such an example of becoming the moon, you're born to be, even though you have what some people could say is a setback. We had so much fun in the audio book, pulling in Jenny's voice, she does all the conquer your inner space moments because every NASA mission ends with a debrief. So I wanted to end all these chapters with a debrief, a chance to go, what do we learn? What are we gonna pray about? What are we gonna apply? And Jenny did all those on the thing,

and she's got such a nice voice to listen to. But the word NASA is in the Bible. And it's in God telling Moses who he is. You know, when God, Moses has shown me your glory, and God says, you know, I can't, but I'll tell you who I am if you hide behind the rock. So God flies by and declares his name to Moses. The Lord, the Lord, you know, he talks about, you know,

by no means clearing the guilty, but showing compassion and kindness to those who love him. That passage has the word NASA, and it speaks about carrying away sin, lifting up or blasting off with sin and lifting it away. And I was like, oh my gosh, NASA means to lift away. And that's part of who God is.

And so it's just such a cool connection to the cross. I, you know, every once in a while you come across a nugget in the Bible that you're like, I am so excited. No one's around me right now, but I want to tell somebody, you know? Yeah, it's so good. I know those moments.

Like, and especially whenever you are a communicator or a speaker, you know, Yeah, oh, it's so good. I know those moments. Like, and especially whenever you are a communicator or a speaker, you know when you have those moments and I almost say now, I hear it and other people's talks and they end those moments and you have to be so casual about when you share it, right? But there's nothing casual about those moments, whenever you come upon that. And so when I read that about NASA,

I was like, oh, he was a geek and owl. I bet he literally fell out of his chair. So that's so cool. I think I, I think I, oh, he was geek and owl of it. He literally fell out of his chair. So that's so cool. I think I, I think I tipped something over my office just like, oh my gosh, no, you know, it's so good. All right. So one theme in the book is you talk about the number seven and the significance of the number seven. So I want you to explain a little bit about the significance, but also the fact that Brooke, Lydrick Wood, who is incredible and was also the first guest on this season of the podcast, which is our seventh season to talk about.

What? What? That was totally not planned at all. I didn't even know it was our seventh season to kick off until someone told me after we recorded it. It was like, do you know this is the first episode of the seventh season? So she's on, she's talking about seven.

And then I see you start talking about seven. And then I saw y'all did something together talking about the fact that you are about talking about seven. And I just wanted to take a moment and just you speak to the fact that the Holy Spirit still is speaking to the church. And man, I just think it's so cool. I had a moment about two years ago where I was preparing a message and I heard it talk Kristen Kenda the week before I was going to speak it. And it was almost exactly what I was sharing. It was the same passages. We pulled out the same scripture.

It was crazy. And I was so worried she was going to think I copied her. So I texted her and I said, hey, I just want you to know this message was amazing that you just preached. I just so happened to be studying the same scripture and preaching on this next week. And I didn't want you to feel like I was taking your word or whatever. I've honestly been preparing this for a few months. Like I bugged your apartment, Christine. Sorry, I've been stalking you. I've been sitting in behind the scenes at all your dinners

No, I was like I'm promise you this was just random and she said her response was so cool I was like this is awesome the Holy Spirit speaking and I was like man that's so cool because a lot of what I'm doing right now I'm being trained you know as I go. I'm a lot younger than a lot of people speaking and pastoring and I'm being trained, you know, as I go. I'm a lot younger than a lot of the people speaking and pastoring and I'm just learning. And it was just so cool to see that her reaction wasn't like a jealous teenager that would be like, oh, you took my word. It was actually like a celebration of God speaking the same word

and more affirmation to her message. And I feel like you and Brooker have in that moment right now. So speak to that a little bit, because that is just so awesome. It's crazy. And when Brooke and I, actually it was Scott,

when Scott first told me what Brooke had been working on because we were hanging out and I was like, hey man, he's like, what's God doing? I hadn't told anybody. This book was a big secret. I didn't tell my agent. I didn't tell my publisher.

I wrote the whole thing without telling anybody because it was kind of like, I don't know if people are gonna understand or get it. So I'm just gonna do it and then we'll figure out afterwards. And fortunately, everybody, like on the publishing end was excited about it and all that. But we were sitting there in California and I said, yeah, I've been writing this book and I was so nervous to tell him and he goes,

what's it about? I go, well, the organizing metaphor is the number seven. And his face went white. Like, he was like, are you kidding me? I go, yeah, well, there's seven things Jesus said hanging on the cross. And I want to use those as stepstones to unpack the significance of the cross and how like a rocket, it can get us to the moon. The place God wants us to be. All of that is kind of in this analogy. And so I use seven a lot, and I talk about how seven is in creation seven days of the week.

It's in nature. I mean, you find if you pick up a ladybug, chances are it's going to have seven spots. If you roll two dice, the highest probability number of it being rolled is a seven. There's seven visible colors in a rainbow. There's seven notes in the Western musical scale, seven books in the Harry Potter series. Right? I could go. I loved the seven digits in a phone number. I didn't never realize that either. That's true. Why are there seven digits in a phone number? It's because they found if they went up to eight, people began forgetting better.

Seven seems to be the best number, the biggest best number we can remember all things in a row. It's crazy. And in the book of Isaiah, there are seven spirits that represent before God thrown who and how the Holy Spirit ministers. In Revelation, there's seven trumpet, seven seals. It's all over the place when you start to notice it. And Jesus, seven different times, said, I am and then said something. One of them being the vine that Buzz Aldrin read about in John 15. So I used that all

throughout the book, a book about communion on the moon. Brook has spent the last year at that point working on a whole album called Seven, inspired by Jesus' letters to the Church's Revelation of which there are seven. And then at the center of it all, she's talking about honey coming out of a rock, and the moon is just this big rock, right? And then she Says but I wrote this song about communion. I want the church. I go They were telling me this Scott through Scott and I go you're focused on communion seven and rock

That's literally all I've been doing And so I just realized the Holy Spirit was speaking in stereo You know, and that's like what you're describing with Christine, and it seems like that's what God does. Wow. Oh, that's so cool. And it's so cool, because like I had them in to say to me one time, if God repeats himself, you better be listening. And you see that in the Bible all the time,

you know, whenever there's like a word spoken twice before Jesus speaks, like you know, that's about to be something of significance that you really need to listen to. It's the same thing in life. Like if you start seeing God repeat themself, like start listening to that because that's his voice and he's doing it through his people. And even like naming honey honey, it was just so cool because honey is kind of a random name, right? But man, we just felt like

God really gave us that name for her. It just felt very clear. Honestly, it didn't even seem like a weird name choice until people started saying that that was a weird name choice. Like it seemed so obvious to us that our daughter was gonna be named Honey. And it was really cool because when we announced that or when we knew that, Crowder had that album come out milk and honey

and then Brooke came out with the song, Honey in the Rock and then another artist messaged me who hasn't released the Rock, and then another artist, message me, who hasn't released her stuff yet, and for like a year or two, she's been working on a whole album around Honey. And it was just such confirmation that man, like God, there's something with this. So just his, I don't know,

like there's a message in that, and Honey is actually all throughout the Bible as well. And Proverbs 16 is where we got her name from that kind words like a honeycomb sweeped the soul and healing to the bones. And we feel like in a world where there's so much hatred spoken, so many rude words, negative words, divisive words that maybe honey could be a woman who grows up to speak words that are sweet to the soul and that are healing to the bones. And that's almost like a prophetic word over her life. And so, man, I just, I think it's so cool. When I saw that, I was like so excited with the 7th theme and the rock and the honey and

Christian hour watching y'all's conversation together, which I thought was so cool that y'all took the time to intentionally talk about that. Now, do you talk about honey in the book? There's one part in this book where I talk about honey because the Bible says that when Joshua took the children of Israel and it was a land flowing with milk and Interestingly enough this I heard on a podcast milk and honey are Two of the only things you can eat that nothing has to die for you to eat them. Wow Okay, that's cool if you eat eat grass, the grass dies, right?

If you eat chicken to chicken dies, but milk and honey, and so it's interesting that it's, God is trying to bring us back in revelation to a new heaven and a new earth where there will be no death, only milk and honey in the interesting. Wow, that's so cool. Wait, wow, mind blown, well, that's good moment. These are the moments when I'm interviewing someone,

I wish I wasn't the interviewer, because I need to be the person in my car, just being like, what? That's so cool, but I guess I'll just do it on the microphone with everyone. That's so cool. Yeah, I was, man, the more you, this is why it's cool to search like history

and science, honestly, because the more you discover the more it points to God and the more your mind is just blown. And it's like the littlest things in life that you might think have no significance. Actually, the things that God has put such purpose behind. And man, it's just something like eating honey and all of a sudden you're like blown away

at the things that he wrote, things that he's doing. It's just something like eating honey and all of a sudden you're like blown away at the things that he wrote things that he's doing It's just awesome. You have so many takeaways about the goodness of God In here one thing that I wanted to talk about is the story that you talk about with the father and the ticket and the whole thing I want you to share but I love this quote you say only through the reality of hell and the romance of the cross can God be both just and the justifier of those who believe. And so I want you to talk a little bit about God being both just and justifier because I think this is something that gets really confusing to a lot of people and this is the thing that trips people up and I love how you just talk about it and you gave such a beautiful

example of that. So I want you to share that. Thank you, Sadie. Well, hell is a subject that none of us, like, love to talk about. I don't know anybody who's like, you know what? I love to talk and think about hell. I mean, I think it's in the Bible everywhere. And Jesus spoke about hell more often than he spoke about heaven.

Yeah. So, obviously Jesus believed in hell. And I think a lot of us, especially today, in a time when many people are looking at the Bible and trying to pick and choose what they're going to believe and what they, what, what doesn't maybe violate their sensibilities in, you know, in 2022. And we, we don't really know what to do with it, but here's what's really important to understand. And I always add, when I talk about hell, that you shouldn't be able to talk about hell

without almost tears forming in your eyes. Like if we can talk about hell without just being deeply broken-hearted by the idea of it, then we're not thinking about it. Because we're thinking about people literally being a conscious eternal torment, which Jesus said is what happens to those who reject God's plan of salvation.

So that bricks are hard, but if there's no hell, the cross makes no sense. Not at all. Because when Jesus was in the Garden of Gesemany, saying, God, I don't want to go through this father. If there's any other way, take this cup away from me, bleeding out of his sweat glands. Being crushed by the weight of sin, the thought of it. If there was no hell, why would the father not have said, you know what, just come on back. Like, they're gonna be fine. Only because of the idea of what is our fate without the cross, does the cross actually make sense?

It's not some loving, good idea. Like, oh yeah, I feel so good because of the cross, it gives me warm fuzzies. It's like, no, this is what it took for us, not to end up in hell. And the story I tell in the book that sort of snapped into place for me was something I read about in the news from Wyoming.

A man got pulled over and the police officer came up to the window and the man said, I'm so sorry, I know I need you. I know I know I know I know it, but I can't afford this. And I'm already so behind in my bills and my kids and the cops said I'm sorry you broke the law and he came back and he handed him a ticket And the man was just like devastated because now he thought on top of all my other bills. There's this now Yeah, he was spiraling But when the cop got in his car and drove away the man opened up the ticket envelope and inside it was the ticket

But enough money to cover that ticket and then some. And so the cop faithfully did his job of giving the penalty, but at the same time, he also personally paid the penalty. That's the gospel. Jesus, in Jesus, in his action on the cross, God was paying like laying the full justice of his wrath against sin, but that he also was taking the hit himself.

Yeah. Oh, man, that is so good. And I read that. I was like, wow, like, that is so true. That's it right there. It's fully, you know, giving you the penalty, but fully taking it away. It's just the most beautiful picture of that. You know, I was thinking about this.

You talk about a lot of stuff that's the hard stuff to talk about. I feel like you connect that in the inner space and the outer space and the whole idea of it. And whenever I started this podcast, one thing I never want to do is I never want to give anybody a gotcha question because I felt like being interviewed in the secular world, everyone wants to give anybody a gotcha question because I felt like being interviewed in the secular world everyone wants to ask you the gotcha

question. The question that is the most controversial or whatever. And so in no way in asking this question, don't want this to be the gotcha question. But I do think that this is a question I personally get asked about a lot and when you wrote about it in the book, I thought I think that's gonna be my new answer and so I wanted you to speak to it And you talk about the idea of drunkenness and the difference between drinking to drink and drinking to get drunk and I've never heard it said like how when Jesus was offered the Murr I guess it was when he was being crucified. What that actually would have done for him and why he chose not to have it.

And so can you speak to that? Because people ask me all the time, like is it okay to drink if you're a Christian? Should you not drink if you're a Christian? Where's the line and all the stuff? And I just thought you had an excellent answer for it. So for all the listeners who are asking that question, I'm gonna hand that one to you

because I would say the same thing. So good, Sadie. Um, uh, GK Chesterton once said, if you're going to drink, drink because you are joyful, not because you are miserable. So alcohol, if you look through the scripture, you find statements like, why was given to to glad in the heart of a man. So the idea being, it's a part of this joyous, my son is home, who is dead, prodigal son, the wine flows,

the new heaven speak of wine flowing through the street, and the best, the best honey anyone's ever had and all the rest. So there's a sense of joy in wine. But I think the problem is what we hope the wine can do for us. So if like Chesterson said, we have joy in the Lord and wine becomes a symbol of that because I'm joyful, then that's the biblical idea and understanding of wine. But when you look at someone miserable, hoping the wine will get them to that joy, it can

never live up to that. It will never be able to do that. So I like that as a rule of thumb. If you're thinking, man, it's been such a hard day, I need a drink to take the edge off. You're looking for wine to take you out of misery. It's not as purpose. The purpose is you're joyful and the wine is as simple as that joy, okay? So I like that as a general operating principle. But on the cross, Jesus could have basically had an narcotic substance flowing through his veins that would make him not feel the nails, not feel that, but he chose to feel everything. He didn't want to be drunk and intoxicated, which is the opposite according to Ephesians of being filled with the Spirit. There's never one time in the Bible where it's said it's a sin to drink.

Now it can be because anything not a faith is sin. So if by faith you've been called to abstain from drinking, like a Samson or a John the Baptist or many others, then you have to by faith obey your conscience and then it would become sin to drink. But being drunk is put in Ephesians as the exact opposite of being filled with the Spirit. And how interesting that if you go to a grocery store that sells vodka or rum or whiskey,

it's going to have literally the word spirits at the top of the shelf. So to get drunk is to come under the influence of that Spirit, where you're not in control anymore, that you gave your control of the spirit. So how can you at the same time be under control of the Holy Spirit who wants to use you, bless you? So you want to keep your wits about you and the moment you're drunk or intoxicated. And we all know that's why it's not safe to drive a car intoxicated because you're

not in control of your breaking instincts, all of those things. So drinking is one thing. Being drunk is another thing. And Jesus on the cross was not going to be intoxicated because he wanted his wits about him in the most important mission he was under. And I would say to everyone listening, you're in your life as a mission. I don't mean to turn into T-bow here, but it's possible mission. Yes. Yes. And how can you fulfill that mission if spirits are controlling you and not the Holy Spirit? Yeah, come on, preach that. That is so good. I mean, I just feel like so many things that you talk about are the things that we need

to hear. And so for those who are listening, most of you are probably 18, 25, 30 years old and you're asking these big questions in life, You're wondering these big questions. And I know that this book might look intimidating and might feel like, how is space going to teach me about these things like drunkenness or these things. Like you even talk about, I love you, you had this quote about fear missing out. You said the cure for the fear of missing out is eye content with your savior. If the most important person in the universe is in the room where you are, why would you be worrying about anywhere else? I'm like,

that's so good. You're talking about fear missing out. You're talking about drunkenness. You're talking about you got to crawl before you fly and it's just so good. You really do do such a good job of teaching us about outer space while also helping us navigate our inner space. And so everyone out there listening right now, go get Last Supper on the moon. The audiobooks incredible as well. Highly recommend it. And leave a just thank you for being a great example for so many of us to learn from. Look up to laugh with all the things you and Jenny lead an incredible ministry.

And Christian and I are thankful to know you guys. So thanks again for being on the way that's Go podcast. So you're the best. Thanks for having me. you