WHOOP Podcast - Athlete to Advocate: Keegan Hipgrave's Journey Through Sport, Injury, and Mental Health

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

On this week’s episode, WHOOP Director of Sports Marketing, Jeremy Powers welcomes former Australian National Rugby League (NRL) player, Keegan Hipgrave. Jeremy and Keegan discuss Keegan’s background in sport (1:48), the ins and outs of rugby league (3:52), Keegan’s NRL career (14:28), rugby’s culture around playing through injury (14:28), and Keegan’s medical retirement due to concussion (21:46). Keegan shares his insights on navigating retirement from professional sport (27:53), the importance of implementing mental health resources in the NRL (30:47), his adjustment to retirement (34:20), and the importance of mental health representation in sports (38:19).Resources:Keegan’s InstagramThe Keegan and Company PodcastThe Keegan and Comoany Podcast on InstagramFollow WHOOPwww.whoop.comTrial WHOOP for FreeInstagramTikTokXFacebookLinkedInFollow Will AhmedInstagramXLinkedInSupport the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

All the really hard things that I've gone through has led to positive change and positive impact. When I was 17, I lost one of my really good friends to suicide. That's what got me into mental health. That's what got me to being an ambassador for Movember. I'm really interested about this space. Being medically retired from rugby league, also a really tough place. But then that led me into studying psychology. And that led me to starting my mental health and sport podcasts that I absolutely love and adore.

I get to work with professional NRL players who are now. leaving the game. Yeah. So the advice I would give is just like, it's hard when you're in it, but there is going to be some good that comes out of it. What's up, folks? Welcome back to the Whoop podcast. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, founder and CEO of Whoop.

We're on a mission to unlock human performance. We've got a great guest this week before we get to him. A reminder, if you're thinking about joining Whoop, you can visit our website, sign up for a free 30-day trial. That's just Whoop.com and you get the full Whoop. experience for 30 days. On this week's episode, Woop, Director of Sports Marketing, Jeremy Powers, is joined by Keegan Hipgrave, that Australia native is a former rugby star who had his career cut short due to injury. He now hosts the Keegan and Company podcast to inform others

on mental health and how to deal with traumatic situations in your life. Jeremy and Keegan discussed the sport of rugby league, turning pro at a young age, playing through injury, how Keegan's career ended early due to concussions, helping athletes transition out of sport, and Keegan's mental health and sport podcast. If you have a question, was the answer to on the podcast. Email us, podcast, woof.com. Call us 508-443494952. Here are Jeremy Powers and Keegan Hipgrave. Keegan, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you here at Woop HQ in Boston. Jeremy, thanks for having me, brother. I'm pumped to be here. Well, thanks a lot. We have some in common. We're both retired. And we both seem to be athletes. And you got to cut you.

I think you got a couple years on me, mate. But hey, pump to be here, pumped to talk about the retirement. It looks like it's going well for you, man. I mean, we're both semi-retire. Let's be honest. Yeah. That was a joke. Like, we're not really retired. Like, we're not retired from life. But we're retired from being out there and beating on our bodies anyways. Yeah, but hey, mate, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't have it any other way, man. We still get to train. We still get to be around good crew. It's the best. Tell us about your sport. Tell us a little bit about your story from the top, if you don't mind, like going back a little bit. I obviously want to know about growing up in Australia. I'd love to know about the sport of rugby, but I'd

like to know a lot about you. So can you bring our viewers that maybe don't know about you? For sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So my name is Keegan Hipgrave. I'm from Australia, given the accent, I'll say a lot and I'll abbreviate a lot of words. Even coming over here to America, people can't quite understand us what we're saying, but that's right. We'll make it work. I played a sport professionally called Rugby League. There's two main sports in Australia, Rugby League and Australian rules. They have two biggest sports. I played rugby league professionally for about eight years.

I loved rugby league. It was what I wanted to do when I was a kid. Growing up with Australia, specifically the Gold Coast, it's a very active lifestyle. So I surfed. I did surf life-saving. I played rugby. I did water polo.

I did a bunch of different sports. My mum and dad, they were big sporting nuts. And similar to yourself, mate, had a lot of energy growing up. So my mom just wanted me to just to do anything, just to burn out the energy. so I would sleep at night. But rugby league was the sport that I went down. I signed my first professional contract when I was 17,

which is, I guess, kind of rare. When you're that age, usually you sort of sign your first pro contract a bit later on, but I was 17 for four years. Played for eight years, was medically retired, had too many concussions throughout that time. Rugby leagues, it's a brutal sport. You know, it's probably closest to American football.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to know. I wanted to know, tell, for people that don't know what, you know, know, rugby is, because it's like, you know, you might be talking about soccer, you might be talking about football, you might be talking about rugby. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, break down rugby for two seconds. So if you know rugby, like rugby union, it's kind of similar to that, I imagine,

except it's a little bit more stop and start. So two teams, teams of 13, you've got a little ball. It's actually weird to explain. I've never actually explained rugby league before, but essentially two teams. There's 17 professional teams in Australia spread it around. the country it's a very high contact sport so you're you're running into each other there's high collisions there's a lot of injuries given the nature we don't wear pads we'll go into these games but

it's kind of what we grew up with so it's kind of what you're used to i know when when we first start the season you've had a couple months off in preseason you're doing a lot more running and a lot more conditioning so the first sort of game that maybe the preseason games your body's a little bit sore but your body just kind of gets used to the contact you know and maybe the back end of the season you you're holding a bunch of injuries, probably similar to yourself in the cycling world. But it's a brutal sport, mate. It is a brutal sport. The average number of games sits between 43 and 46 games.

Okay. Just for contacts, there's only 26 rounds in one season. Yeah. So for people to play more than 46 games, it's pretty rare. Or it's the average. But you see guys that go on have 100, 200, 300, 300 plus game careers. Do you score by literally throwing, like, a touchdown? down like do you run across the line and then you've got your like tell tell us a little bit more

about rugby just so that like everybody that's listening has a really good sense of exactly what what this is because we understand like tackling and you know a lot of this like kind of contact sport heavy but like how does one win a game so it's great question uh to to win a game is you score points yeah so we would call it a try yeah uh essentially it's kind of like a touchdown but you can't throw the ball forward so the ball always has to get past backward and you have to run across the in goal or the main, I guess, zone at the end of each field, and then you have to put the ball on the ground. So you can't just run across the line. You actually have to put the ball on the ground. So on the sides of the field, you'll see these really amazing acrobatic

guys that will sort of jump outside of the field to put the ball on the ground. So yeah, that's essentially how it works. You get four points for a try. And then you kick the ball over there's like a two goalpost and then you get an additional two points for that. So yeah, the most points win at the end of the game. It's massive in Australia. Give us a sense of how big this is as like a sport in your country. It's probably similar to the United States where certain regions have their sports that are like they're diehard fans, right? So if you're in Australia and you're in probably more the northern end, so you know, Queensland, so like Gold Coast, Brisbane, Sydney, which a lot of people might know, it's diehard rugby league. Like people are obsessed. Like it's the culture, you know,

we're Australians, we love sport. But then if you were to go to Melbourne, which was a bit further south in Australia, it's Australian rules. It's a different sport, very similar. And I've got mates in both teams, in both different sports, which is really fun. But I grew up Rugby League, so I'm obviously incredibly biased. I love, love the sport. I love that I still get to be a part of the sport. But that's kind of the dynamic of it all. You turn pro young. Tell us about how you got into it. Why? Yeah, what's the backstory there? I mean, I do want to get to how you got to where you are today, but I'd like to know a little bit more about how you turn pro. And it seemed like it was quite young and not maybe super traditional in that regard. Yeah, I think it was bigger than

everyone else when I was younger. When I was at 12, 13, I had a lot of success. I had a lot of confident in like your junior development years. I got picked in all the representative teams, mainly because I was a bigger guy. When I hit about 16, everyone caught up to me. So now everyone's a similar size to me. So I was like, what am I going to do? Because Rugby League was always going to be the thing that I wanted to do. While I did have backup plans and while I was studying outside of Rugby League, that was kind of the goal. And so I was just like, well, if everyone's the same size as me now, how am I going to get to that next level and what's that going to look like? And it looked like training hard, but then also being super competitive. And that competitive aspect kind of looked pretty aggressive, to be honest. Like we play a pretty brutal game. And I had a lot of coaches tell me and probably reinforce that natural aggression. Like I was an aggressive player. I have friends now that say the person you are off the field to the person you were on the field is two totally different people. And I put that down to just being so competitive.

I just wanted to win and I wanted to be the best. And so, yeah, I guess I had a lot of success coming through. I got to play all the representative teams at 17 years old. I got offered a contract, which was four years. And it was really good cash for a 17-year-old, to be honest. And just for context, like, I come from a middle-class family. So growing up, I always thought, if I didn't have to look at petrol, the price of petrol, and I didn't have to look at my grocery bill, then that I'm really.

Rich, like that's a dream. To this day, that's still kind of where I like to sit. But to be offered a good amount of cash at 17 for four years, I know what the next four years is going to look like. That's going to take me to 21. That was a really cool thing, and I took that seriously. And that sort of fed into my identity as me being a professional rugby league player. I put everything into that, mate.

And just because you sign a pro contract doesn't mean you're going to play in the first team. Most guys don't make their, they call it like a debut. I'm not sure if it's similar here, but most people don't make their NRL debut until they're probably like, you know, early 20s, mid-20s. And so I was just like, okay, well, I want to do it young. One of my idols, his name was Corey Parker. He did two things. He made his NRL debut at 18 and he bought his first house at 18. And I was like, well, if I could do that before I'm 20, then maybe I'll be half the player, this guy is.

And I was coming to the same team as him. So he was my idol. I was a little sponge. I sort of just like clung to him like a bad smell. And I just learned from him and he was an aggressive player as well. So we both, we kind of got on. But I had a lot of injuries when I was in that earlier, early sort of years. I told my hamstring five times when I was 19.

And this is me trying to make my NRL debut. Like my goal was going to do it before I was 20. And I was just remember being so frustrated. And it's not like an ACL or a big injury where you have that one significant incident, then you go back, back to the drawing board, you'll work on your recovery, you'll get back, and then you get back to play. It was like, you tell your hamstring, okay, great. Maybe the next time I might have come back a bit too early.

Okay, well, let's go back to the drawing board and start again. Go through so much hard work, so much rehab to try and get back to where it is and you think you're going to be good to play, you tour it again. And then I was like, okay, well, I don't want to start. This is the third time. I want to make my NRL debut before I'm 20. Let's go to the best, you know, hamstring doctors and specialists in Australia. Let's talk to them.

Let's extend the recovery time. So I'm really good. Okay, I put everything into it. This is going to be, yeah. I'm going to make my NRL debut. tear it again. Yeah. And so it's a rollercoaster, mate.

And to be honest, I remember calling my dad after I just taught it for the fifth time. I remember like, be on the phone to him, like, crying, like, because I was just so frustrated. One of the older boys actually said, he was a guy who looked up to. He's just like, mate, if you're a horse, we'd shoot you. You know, you can't even stay on the field. And that stung. I've got a journal entry actually about it because I'm a big journaler. And I remember on the phone, like crying, not from what the guy said, but just because

I was so frustrated I wanted to play so badly. And he's like, well, mate, talk to your manager. I called my manager who is kind of like a mentor to me, Clint Jofoski. And he said, mate, like you're not even 20 years old. Like take the pressure off. Like most guys aren't making their NRL debut until they're a little bit later down the track. So just take the stress off.

We'll go back. We'll do our recovery and we'll just see how it goes. And it was interesting, mate. I actually end up doing a mid-season transfer to the Gold Coast Titans, which was actually my hometown. It was where I grew up. And in this professional team, these are guys that I had a lot of, mates in the team. I had, you know, I was back surfing, which I loved. I had a really good rehab

program. And I think it was just a change of environment. I really was enjoying my footy. I loved it. I was 20 at the time. We did a heap of hard work. And to be honest, mate, I made my NRL debut at the end of that year. The very last game. With the Gold Coast Titans. With the Gold Coast Titans. At 20. Yes. The big dog. Local hometown, we're surfing, but we're also crushing it on the show. Yeah, man. What was that like for you? What was the, what was that feeling to finally get that to finally get that moment in your, you know, it's something you've been working on and, like, putting up on a pedestal for so long. It's a good question because it's something you work hard towards, you know, I think everyone who, especially in Australia, or I'm sure it's the same over here,

you know, you put so much hard work to get to your goal. And that was the goal. And you do it. And it's this euphoric feeling. You know, you've got your friends and family traveling to the game. You've got this little crew in the corner and you have your family, you get the photo. And to be honest, like, I was only supposed to play five, 10 minutes. Like, you know, you're a young, you're still a young play, you don't get that much time. But we had a heap of injuries throughout the game. And I think I ended up playing 60 out of the 80 minutes of the game, which was hard, it was big, it was big and it was hard.

And there was some really big guys on the other team and me being a natural, probably like a bit of a hot head young style, just like, well, I want to take out the best players on the other team. So me and these big guys, we would clash heads and they obviously got it over me because they were, you know, towards the end of their 20s. But it was a cool atmosphere to be a part of. And that accomplishment, that feeling of achievement, it stuck with me. And I think the best thing I learned from it was like, you've just got to do the hard work.

Anything you want to, anything you want to get to, you've got to do the hard work. Yeah, that sounds cool. I was going to ask you what you remembered about it. But it sounds like you remember those dudes. Yeah. These are big guys. And like, I'm not considered to be a big guy in the NRA. I'm considered to be a smaller Ford.

And a forward is someone who is in the middle. And that's where all, like, the collisions take place. It's where all the tackles take place. And I would consider to be a smaller guy. So I was like, well, I got to rely on that competitive, aggressive nature to try and be on the same level as these guys. You know what I mean? Well, if you're just listening to us and you're not watching this, if you, if you were

walking on an alleyway, a dark alleyway, and you just saw Keegan alone, you'd go the other way. Not a small guy. I'm not sure about that, mate. I'm not sure. But, man, it's interesting. Like, when you finish up footy, because when you're in that, you're in that, environment you got to eat so much you got to train so much i i lost 10 kilos within you know a couple

months of of finishing up footy i want to know what you guys did for training though because this sounds like it would be really interesting to know like what a training regimen for a rugby player in australia is like yeah no of course it's great question so we have like obviously different periods so you'd have the preseason before the pre before the season uh then you have the main season and then you'd have your off season and the preseason is where all your strength and conditioning comes in you know you want to be as big and as strong and as fast as you can there's a lot of speed work there's a lot of big runs and there's a lot of weights so we're probably lifting weights you know minimum four times a week we're probably doing two potentially three really

solid conditioning sessions mixed with that skills so it's a ball sport so kind of like rugby so we would do a conditioning block and then rolled into skills so we want to do those skills under fatigue and that was a big part of it we probably wouldn't do so much video session and that was probably when you have a really good foundation leading into the season Pulls probably a back a bit because you're playing, you know, one big game a week. You want your body to be as recovered as possible. So we do a lot more video sessions. We probably lift only two or three times a week, but at much lower volumes,

depending on how quick the turnaround was. But to be honest, mate, like to get through 26 games in the NRL, it's pretty. It's brutal. Yeah, the games is training. And most guys are carrying injuries. Like most of the guys play through it. It's rare to get through a season without having an injury, you know. Like, a lot of fans think that you're just going to, you play out 100% week in, week out.

It's like, that's not the case at all. Like, if you can get to 60, maybe 70% of your best physically, that's a win. You know, there's a lot of times that you're playing under 50%, like, and you've just going to hang on for dear life. And then the off season is the time to get away. We get six to eight weeks off, sometimes 10 weeks off at the end of the season. That's just go decompress, you know, get the body right. If you need to get any surgeries or operations, you usually try and get it in the back end of the season.

It's crazy to think like this is regular life. Like, yeah, if I need to get, like, I'm going to do my surgeries in the off season. Like, you know, my wife's having a kid. Like, I'm going to also do my surgeries then as well. Well, that was the case, mate, like, to be honest. Like, just scheduling things like that. Yeah. Insane for most normal people because, like, we don't, regular people that aren't

thinking about, like, how they, you know, go into surgery to continue to their Yeah, Matt, it's, well, that's, it's, I learn this now because it's coming out of professional sport, it's, but when you're in that little bubble, like, that's all you know. And so I remember there was. one time I tore my AC just off my shoulder and I did it in a tackle in a game and so I came off I was done but then we ran out of players due to injuries and their injuries was worse than my injury and so we had to put 13 players on the field so I meant me just you know we kneeled it we localed it as much as we can we strapped it really heavy so like my right shoulder is pretty much not working

so I want to tackle and tackling with my left shoulder and so we went on we finished the game we ended up winning the game it was against one of our really big teams and it was one of those things where I was just like, it's sort of like when you're in that moment and the adrenaline's pumping, you're not even trying to think about it. One of the most painful things I think I've ever done, but you're just in that moment and you're like, you just do anything to just to play and just to win. Obviously, after the game, that's when all the pain actually really sets in. That was an operation that we sort of pushed back to the end of the season. I tried to play the next week, but I was rubbish. I got, you know, taken off within five, ten minutes of the game.

It was pretty stupid to play anyway. I had a couple weeks off. let the swelling come down. We localed it. We patted it up. We strapped it. And then, yeah, that's the surgery at the end of the year. Savage. Savage. Yeah. That's only where I can really use that. I actually want to say, like, first of all, what's going through your mind when you're playing with an injury? Like, as a former athlete, there would be times when you, like, have to, like, kind of blank out and go to a place where you're really deep and you're not thinking about the actual pain or this or that. But, like, what was that like for you to go one step further on that? Like, if you're in the game, but you know you're injured, you know, like, you're willing

to give everything for that in that moment it's um it's an interesting conversation hey because that's what you know yeah like you you you don't think about what is this going to do to my body five 10 years later right like it's that's not that's not even in the conversation not even a thought to be honest because everyone in that in that room or in that squad in your team environment they all have the same thought yeah it's like how do we get there and if you you would have to be in such a place where you can physically not play and you would actually be worse off for the team to go on the field. It's just like if you could do anything to get on that field, that's what you're doing because you want to play. You want to be there for your mates. You've gone through all the highs and lows

with this team and you want to get to the end goal of winning a premiership. That's the goal. Like that's the dream. That's every player's dream. And so when you'd have an injury, we're like, oh, what's the best things that I can do to get there? You know, and sometimes it's to your detriment. But, you know, sometimes you, you know, I've got fingers that will never be. be the same. You know what I mean? Because it's just, I'm sure you've got one as well. And that's why I think a lot of guys come out of sport. And especially if they've been playing for a long time, they really struggle physically. You know, one of my really good friends, like he can't run. You know, he can't run more than two kilometers. He can walk, but he can't run. And he'll have these injuries forever.

And I think it's a catch-22 because while I love rugby league, I would never change that. I'm actually kind of happy and grateful that I got out at a pretty young age that I'm sure we'll talk about. I left the game at 24. So touch wood, my body's all right now. I've got injuries that I can manage. I can still run. I can still train. I can still do all that. But I've got a lot of mates who are in their 30s, mid 30s, even 40s, and they can't do these things. So it is, it's a, it's a balance. I'm not sure if I have the answer to that. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you give so much and you get to that point where you just want to, you just want to see it through. Like, you're almost wanted to die for it. Like, I remember personally making those deals with myself. I'm like,

cool, I'm good here. Like, we might go careening off the side of this cliff, like, in a sleep and hail storm, you know, at 12,000 feet in the sky with like concrete, you know, roads that are slippery. It's like, cool, I might die. And I'm okay with that. Like, I would make those deals with myself. And that was a thought process that you had in that time. Yeah. That's what, see, that is wild for us to think of it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like, but you might also rip your shoulder off. And you might be like, all right, like, this is, you know, it's already hanging on by a thread and like, you know, what they're going to have to do to it after. It just sounds like you're making a lot of deals with yourself mentally. There was a guy who played, you know, over 300 games,

who was an incredible play. His name's James Graham. And he had a very similar mindset to, obviously a lot of players, similar mindset to you. He had a lot of concussions, like some big knockouts. I want to talk about this. Which we will talk about 100%. He said the exact same thing. And he had so many concussions. And he said, rugby league was my whole life. Rugby League was my whole identity, he's like, I would have died for it. He's like, he's like my purpose, he generally thought my purpose on this earth is to play rugby league. And that's, and he family had kids, he had the whole thing. And it wasn't until, you know, he finished up sport and he's just like, well, this isn't like, this isn't my whole life. I can only play until I'm 30, maybe 35 max. And so he

went through that whole whole deal as well. But it's that interesting thing where you're in that mind frame, like, you're like, it's like from the person, people who are listening to this, you'd be like, there's no way that you'd be willing to die for it. But when you're in the thick of it and you've got people who are all willing to do the same, you're like, you would go to extreme lengths. It's the status quo. It's the norm. Yeah. In 2021, though, you had a serious injury. Tell us about how things, how things you had said medically retired, but tell us more about that. Yeah. Yeah. So 2021, I had a string of big concussions, right? And in the NRL, previously, it used to be a brave thing to do. If you get a concussion, you get back up and you

play. Times have changed, especially with all the research and probably the headlines are about coming out with concussion and CTE. But I had some big ones. But in the 2021 season, yeah, I had three big concussions and the last one being against the Pen with Panthers. It was the last game of the season. You know, it was just before semifinals and we're going into the semifinals. And I remember there was this big guy to Vita, he was a former teammate. He's actually a good friend. He was running a really hard line. He had the ball. And I was tackling him. And so I had to jam in and I just came off second best. I had a big contact. The back of my head hit the ground pretty severely. There's a clip around there out somewhere. It's really ugly to look at, to be honest.

But I remember just being completely out. I don't remember a long of that game. I got up. I walked off. After you have a big concussion, you're going to do a series of tests in the locker room. So I did all those tests, knowing that if you do have a concussion now, you're not allowed to play for the rest of the game. That's the protocols. They got some really good protocols in the NRL now. And to be honest, I just had a headache. Like I had a headache. I had a headache and I was just like, well, that's part of the game. I couldn't play the semifinal of the following week due to the protocols. As much as I was trying to, they wouldn't let me. But that's probably that next week is sort of when I started to notice a lot more of the

symptoms. Like I couldn't train without having this throbbing headache. And I would try and do these really light runs. Like we call them like rehabilitation runs where you would slowly, gradually build up. So I try and do a little run and then I would just sleep all afternoon. You know, I tried and do a really light gym session. I would just sleep all afternoon and all night. And that was the first thing. And then from there, the season wrapped up and all the boys would go on their holidays and get their surgeries and do what they had to do.

And I went back home and I remember just these symptoms started like lingering. I had a headache for about two months after that last big one. My brain was just obviously still recovering. The biggest thing that I noticed was my emotions, like that irritability. Like it was very irritable, just snapping for no particular reason. I remember being, like, so happy on Cloud 9. This is like, I'm with my friends and with my family. And the next minute, I'd be brought down to tears for no reason.

And I've been through it before, so I know that my brain was recovering. I knew that was part of it. But it doesn't take away from the fact that he's still going through it. Like, I remember being with my, it was my granddad's birthday. And my granddad wasn't doing that great at the time. Probably didn't have a many, you know, times left that we would get to see him. And I remember just like being there at this lunch and just being so angry. and I was just thinking of like any other place that I would rather be just like and it was just

in my own brain and then I left that I got into the car and I remember thinking like oh this probably like one of the last times that I'll get to see him and I was just breaking down I was like what's wrong there's got to be something wrong like and then I went to see the neurologist because it was part of the testing part of the follow up and I was just completely honest with him to be fair like I told him all my symptoms I told him all all the things that were happening with the irritability with the headaches the fatigue just for people who are listening to And you go through, you know, a bunch of brain testing, neurological testing, problem solving, literacy, numeracy, reaction time. There's all this whole, like, a day of testing.

And at the end of the testing, it was pretty much like, Kiggs, like, you've had quite a lot of concussions now. You know, you're almost getting to double digits in the professional space. And I know, like, growing up, I'd have way more because that was just what it was like back then. He's like, Kiggs, you've got a lot going on outside of footy, you know, I'd finished a bachelor of business. I was halfway through my MBA. I was curious about a lot of things. I recommend that you should probably medically retire from rugby league. Remember that sitting with me for a little bit and thinking I want to be a footy player.

Like I wanted to play for my country. While I had an average career, I played 49 games. And as we discussed, an average career is 43, 46. So I just tipped over an average career. But there was so much more I wanted to do in the game. But then I sat down and I reflected and I was just like, well, hang on. Like I am curious about a lot of things outside of footy. And to be honest, like, I want to be good when I'm 40 and 50 and 60.

Like, yes, from a brain point of view, but also from a body point of view. And so after I made that choice and I had some conversations with my friends and my family, predominantly my family, it came to the fact of like, I'm not going to try and push back. I'm just going to accept the doctor's advice and medically retire from rugby league. Hard day. Yeah, it was tough, man. It was a tough day to make that call. It was a harder day to tell the coach.

I remember I was in the pool at the time I tried to call him straight after that appointment he didn't get back to me, he's busy man, but he got back to me the next day it was the first time I proper set it out loud to anyone been told him medically retired, this is what it's going to look like and he's just like he's like, he's like while we love sport and while we love rugby league, it's not everything.

You know, you've got your friends, you've got your family, a bunch of stuff happening outside of footy, like that's the special stuff. And after that, it felt good. And while there is a morning period, And while it's sad and, you know, there's a lot of questions and there's a lot of media around it. It's like, I'm not going to kick stones. And so what's next? And all the background of like working hard and being curious about other things that actually helped me transition out of

professional sport to do what I do now. As I was telling you at lunch, I love what I do now. Like I wouldn't change anything. So while it was a hard time, yeah, I wouldn't change anything. What's up, folks? If you are enjoying this podcast or if you care about health, performance, fitness, you may really enjoy getting a whoop. That's right. You can check out whoop at whoop.com. It measures everything around sleep, recovery, strain, and you can now sign up for free for 30 days.

So you'll literally get the high performance wearable in the mail for free. You get to try it for 30 days, see whether you want to be a member. And that is just at whoop.com. Back to the guests. I've had several friends that have had to stop doing sports. you know, especially in like the more dangerous situations because they've had, they've been concussed so many times that there's like really detrimental effect to this being concussed over and over and over again. And the research continues to back that up. That like, hey, this is not what

we're built for. Although we're very resilient. This is not at all what our bodies were built to do. And each of them kind of has its own little effect. And we don't know for some people is worse for them for others. But like was it that one experience that made you think, okay, this is where I really need to stop, or was it the doctor that did it? And then after that, like, you've really now transitioned into, like, mental health and awareness and talking about this story. But I'm curious if there's anything you can say to anyone that would be like, oh, yeah, this was the thing that I just, in my head, I knew that this was the time. Or like, if you're thinking that is the time, it probably is, like, kind of stuff. It's, yeah, it's a hard way. Obviously, hindsight's a beautiful

thing. Right. But you have that. And some people that say, am I not. I look back now and I'm not, I'm not sure why this is, but I feel like all the really hard things that I've gone through has led to positive change and positive impact. When I was 17, I lost one of my really good friends to suicide. That's what got me into mental health. That's what got me to being an ambassador for November. I'm really interested about this space. Being medically retired from rugby league, also a really tough place.

But then that led me into studying psychology, and that led me to starting my mental health and sport podcasts that I absolutely love and adore. I get to work with professional NRL players who are now leaving the game. So the advice I would give is just like, it's hard when you're in it, but there is going to be some good that comes out of it. And it's just you might not be able to see it in that moment, but it is. And I think if you focus on the good things and if you can focus on what you can control, then that'll help.

Like you can't control the uncontrollables. Like you can't control being medically retired or losing your mate to suicide. But what are the next steps? like what is actually going to help not just yourself but but other people and the ability to make genuine change and genuine impact and move the needle is is super important i believe yeah yeah it's like it doesn't matter if it's your brain or your acl or your back or whatever or your l-4-l-through whatever like it might be but like an injury that's like kind of that's the end of most athletes careers it's like you don't get to stop the way you want to unfortunately it's for many it's very yeah

100% it would be very rare for someone just to have the most picture perfect career and then and be like, okay, well, now I'm done. And everyone struggles coming out of professional sport. We've had this conversation before, whereas it's like, it might not be, you know, the financial piece. It might be the connection piece, you know, hanging around the right people. It might be the psychological piece. It might be training and navigating what my purpose is and what my employment's going

to look like. So everyone struggles in different ways. But I think, yeah, hanging around good people is a good thing. I think looking for the good and people and looking for, like, pride opportunities. That stuff helps so much. So now you've been focused a lot on mental health. You've been telling your story. You've been on the podcast or you've got your own podcast. You can plug it with. Kagan and company. Kagan and company. Sam's awesome. But you also have a role with your old league, right?

Yeah, yeah. And you're helping athletes transition out of this. Tell us about kind of what you're up to and what's going on with that and a little bit about, I mean, I think we get a sense for the type of person you are, but like what the great part of that job is because you said you've loved it already. And I, we've talked. So I know. but I want everyone to know, like, how cool that is to be able to help, you know, people maybe that you were friends with or that you played with, transition out to see a world that you already are in. Matt, I'm very grateful to do what I get to do. I study psychology because I want to have the tools to be able to help friends and family first. That was the first piece, I think, of the puzzle when I finished up. Yeah, I think lived experience is great.

And while that makes a huge impact, I want to be able to the right tools to know what actually works, right? So that was the first piece. The second piece of the puzzle was, well, how do we? how do we air these conversations? Everyone who I looked up to growing up were all athletes, you know, and whatever they were doing, that's what I wanted to do. I come to this realization, well, if athletes we all look up to,

they can be seen, you know, talking about their own struggles and vulnerabilities, and it's like, wow, that's normal, that's fine. And it actually makes it okay for everyone else. And they're giving tools and strategies, and that was a huge learning piece. And so we've had some incredible conversations on the podcast with athletes who we all look up to, predominantly Australian-based. now we've been to New York and now we're here in Boston, LA next week. And so it's a really fun thing.

And that's a great way to create awareness. But for me, the genuine impact and the ability to move the needle in my own community is I work for like the Rugby League Players Association. So we're kind of like the player union. And my role specifically is to help with players who might be retiring from the game, might be transitioning over to another league. So we've got the UK is big for rugby league. So we have another players.

We probably have over 100 players playing in that competition. All players who might just not get a contract. And these periods of transition can be really tough for a lot of players. And so I guess my role is that I'll sit with them, I'll meet with them. To be honest, I know a lot of them because you're in a similar conversation and why you might not be direct mates. There is a mutual respect there and you know each other. So we'll sit down and we'll let them know all the benefits and initiatives that they have access to.

It might be psychological help. So seeing psychologists, it might be a financial help. There might be career coaching of what they want to do post-footy. There's education grants that they have access to depending on how long they played in the league. Connection events, which is probably one of my favorite things. When you finish up professional sport, there's that sort of sense of where, okay, well, you're done. Like, go out into the real world and go figure it out. But it's like from my point of view in the rugby league community,

how can we, I guess, bring these plays together? So we have about 12 different locations. We call this Keep Fit, Keep Connected event. So in each region around Australia, we'll have like anyone who's played in our role. I'll come in. We'll do a gym session at a local player's gym. Then we'll go to coffee and catch up. And we'll do that once a quarter, 12 different locations around Australia. And that's such a cool piece because you've got all these guys coming in. I might not have seen each other for a little bit. It's a great way to connect, great way to catch up to see what other

guys are doing. How do we help each other's players? Like whether that with the cafes or restaurants, the guys are networking, they're hanging out. And it's that connection piece that a lot of us miss. And we do a bunch of different initiatives like that. We'll do golf days and reunion events. that pace I think is it's very special to dive into that a little further I'd be curious to know what you think you know retiring from me personally from sport was really really hard you know it's it's what you live for I'm curious to know what you think about athletes that are leaving sport and what you see or what they fear the most or what you're seeing the most of like man I just don't know if I'm able to do this or like that's not I'm like I'm never working on a computer I'm never working

a desk job but like man I really need to do something outside or like you know I want to get into like cutting trees down or my you know my friends have a business that I want to join or I'm an entrepreneur like I'd be curious to know what you're hearing and then like Like how that also relates to regular people as well, they're like leaving their careers. When you're in the professional system, when you're in it, it's kind of like a little bubble, right? And a lot of guys just think that they'll play forever, you know, which is sometimes the case, sometimes not the case. But picture it as like when you're in a professional sporting system or even a corporate world, you're climbing this like a mountain, right?

And a lot of the times or from what I've seen in players who are in it, when they finish up, they think they're just going to jump across to the next mountain. And that might be from a status point of view, that might be from a financial point of view, that might be whatever point of view you want to look at it, right? But it's actually not the case. It's very few that a lot of people will go into media jobs and will go into high corporate jobs. What I found is like you've actually got to climb back down the mountain and you know what? You'll climb the second mountain so much quicker because you've got all the tools and strategies

and lived experience from the first mountain. And so you're not going to be on the same, you know, ways that you're on playing professional sport like the reality of that is very rare and i think anyone in periods of transition and are unsure of probably where they want to go it's just to try things when i first came into professional sport my my mom was like big on academics i started doing a bachelor of business just because i wanted to keep her happy to be honest but i knew that it wasn't going to go forever and so i was trying a bunch of different things and i recognize that i am in a position of privilege because a lot of other businesses like to have professional athletes in their organization. So I was curious about

cafes. So I worked in a cafe on my day off, just making coffees. I liked the idea of potentially owning a restaurant one day. So I worked at a mate's fine dining restaurant just like helping prep. I like property, you know, I bought my first house at 20. I have a few properties and that was a cool thing. So I went into being a mortgage broker just to understand the system, you know, like Brickie's laborer, landscape laborers, chippies, tradies, carpenters, like trade all these things. And then when I was medically retired, at 24, like I was still pretty young, while I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, I knew everything that I didn't want to do. That's what I told players now. Like, just be

curious. Like, being curious is the best trait that you can get. It might not be what you want to do. We had this conversation before. Say yes to everything. That's the best bit of advice. Just say yes. And then you'll figure out what you actually want to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's never easy to like make the jump. You know, for most, it's like, it's go time. You got to take the jump. And you get it better than anyone because you've, you've done. that. Like you've had the professional, you know, the sporting sense and then you've made that transition while it might be a struggle. But now, look, you know, you get to be a part of an amazing company. It must be amazing to look back. It's like all those hard things actually

help me get to where I am today. Yes. As an athlete, like yourself and, you know, as I was, it's like you have a lot of bravado. You hold yourself in a pretty high place in your own little world. And so you do need to go down to come back up. And it's great. That's actually great because you learn a lot on the journey, right? If you look at it like that, then you can get a lot from it. But I think it can be hard. But I think it comes with a great reward. Especially if you want it. Yeah, 100 people. Well, do you reckon you that you had high standards when you left the sporting world

that you took into your professional career? Yeah, I do. I think that if you can apply the tools that you take, you know, I think that it really helps and benefits. It's like, hey, you learned a lot and you did a lot in your career and those same things are going to apply. You just kind of have to reapply them to new things, you know, but it's not the same for everyone.

It's really not. It's just not the same for everyone. Like the way that we, you know, the way that my brain's wired is not the same as yours versus the next rider and next athlete. or the next football or whatever it might be. So it's never an equals one. It's always like everyone's a little bit, excuse me, it's always an equals one. Everyone's a little bit different.

I wanted to just double click on the mental health stuff a little bit and like talk a little bit about how you have continued to push on this advocacy and a little bit about like your journey in that regard right now and like where you're at right now with like I guess the mental health and the things that you're doing. What is some of the tools and the things that you're doing on a daily basis that are pushing you or helping you or that you've used to transition or that you're putting on to players and you're teaching them about or programs that you guys have that are helping with people's mental health. Everyone's different, right? Like everyone, everyone has different tools and different strategies

that helps them. And to be honest, I'm still learning. Like, that's why I want to go study psychology and have conversations with the best athletes around Australia and now the world. I don't think I'm in a position to tell people what works and what doesn't work. Maybe that's right. Maybe that's wrong. But I know me personally, I love being around the ocean. You know, that's something that really centers me. I'm very fortunate that I get to live on the Gold Coast in Australia, which is right on the beach. So I can wake up in the morning, I get to see sunrise and I get to go for a swim. Training is a big coping mechanism for me. I look at the most hardest times in my life, whether it be through relationship breakdown, whether it be from being medically retired. It's usually

probably the fittest time that I've ever been, you know, because I just dive in in my training and it's a great way to get away. That might be healthy. That might not be healthy. I'm not too sure. but training is a really good thing for me. I really enjoy meditation and breath work. That's a new thing for me. I sort of dabbled in it a little bit while I was praying professional sport, but it wasn't really a focus for me. I've had a lot of really great conversations with people who meditate and people who do breathwork.

I've had some really great personal experiences myself, and that's something that I want to do a deep dive into, just to center myself and I think be a bit more present. So they're probably the big ones. And probably lastly, like the best thing that helps me, and I know I'm privileged and I'm fortunate, but I've got some of the best mates, you know,

like I've got some of the best friends, man, like I, friends and family is a thing that you can check off on Woop in your journal. And we see it, we do see like across the board. Like it really does help a lot of people. Higher recovery scores, more likeliness to be recovering better if you check off like friends and family

as time that you spent together. Well, mate, that's actually something that I included in my journal. Oh, good. In my WOOP journal. Yeah, there's a few things. And that's definitely one of them.

And it doesn't have to be like a whole weekend. Like, you know, we talk about being busy, like, and, and having a balance between work life. I don't need a whole weekend to, to re-center myself. You know, if I can get a coffee or a surf with a mate in the morning or do a training session with a mate of an afternoon, like, that just gives me so much energy. I think, I don't know if you're similar, but I do get a lot of energy from people. I think very, very social.

And I really got a lot of love for my friends, you know what I've been. And fortunate because I know there's a lot of people who, might not have similar networks and I don't know if I'm in any place to give any advice but I think if you can hang around places that you enjoy whether that's the gym whether that's you know cycling whether that's you know even your like company the people who you resonate with or might have similar values to it's probably the people that you're more likely to be drawn to anyway you know what I mean yeah so you're going to school uh to get a degree in psychology and I think the other thing that I've really gained from our conversations over the last days and getting to spend this

with you, you're a man of people. You really like to help people. I think this role that you're doing today is like probably really feels like a personally. Like, yeah, I like this work because I also really like to help people. But psychology also kind of goes into that. What do you hope to do with that? It's a great question. I'm not entirely sure what the final product or the final destination is going to be. I want to have the tools to be able to help friends and family foremost. And then secondly to that help players and mates who are transitioning out of sport. That's that's kind of where I'm sitting at the moment and the psychology is a great legitimacy piece. It's a great way to figure out what's actually works, understanding what the studies look like, understanding what's actually

going to generally help instead of just being some person on social media, just talking about things that might work for some people, might not work for some people. I do like the idea of potentially being a clinical psychologist. But then I also like the research piece as well. There's some really great studies that have come out, including, you know, circadian rhythm with mental health, you know, physical activity with mental health, breath work and meditation, go down any pillar that you want to go down. It's really interesting. But long term, I'm not too sure.

I think sport is a passion. I think that's always going to be a foundation. But yeah, potentially like clinical psychologists. I love my podcast, man. Like that's, that is, that is a passion project. And while I never thought that I would be in media when I was playing footy, like, I was that I just wanted to play footy and they're like, kids you up for media. I'd be like, mate, just get someone else to do it.

Really? I'm surprised by that. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was never really a thing until more recently. The podcast is a year old, to me honest, we're only fresh. But the amount of growth that we've had in the last time is it's a good validation piece because it means that we're on the right track, I think. And the messages that we've had from people who listen who get a lot out of it, it's special. And I think when you hear that, it means you're on the right track. So whether that's in sport or clinical cycle, podcasting, I'm not too sure.

But whatever that direction is, I think it's going to work out. All right. So this is the Whoop Podcast. So I have a question. I'm going to put you on the spot. Are you ready? What we got for recovery today? Oh, actually, I did look this morning. I didn't think you were going to ask, but I do. I am in the green. In the green? I am in the green. I wasn't in the green when I first flew over from Australia, given the jet lag. It's about 30 hours to get here. We actually made the mistake. We flew into Manchester. We spent a bit of time in London beforehand. And we thought, oh, we'll go out into town and try and stay awake just to get back. And then we end up staying out a little bit too long. that we're back on Australia time. I know, it's like this is probably not great being a performance podcast. But no, I'm in the green, you know. We love that. We had a great, we had a great weekend.

What do you think? What do you think? Is it just all the good vibes that has brought you there? Because you're saying the game, you've been like here at the HQ, you've been hanging with people, a lot of good energy. You got to interview different people. Brother, Boston is the best. Okay.

I love Boston. I came in, I came into the Woup HQ yesterday. You know, I got to talk to a bunch of different departments, you know, we're even like being here in the WOOP podcast, like part of the, like, excitement, like being here, we've had a lot of, obviously, a heap of cons in the lead up to this, to this trip. Got to see a Red Sox gang, which was awesome, man. Like, I think we're just ticking a lot of good boxes. We're eating some really great quality food.

I feel like I'm back in the routine and I'm sleeping so much better now, which is great. I want to ask, like, what you're using your Woop for most? Yeah, I know you said the journal, but, like, also, what are some other things that you really enjoy about it? Like, especially around, like, mental health, like, maybe you're checking off, you know, oh, I'm doing, you know, I'm doing meditation. Then you're like, hey, when I do meditation, I'm, like, getting a better recovery or maybe it's things that you're eating or, you know, maybe you're seeing other players that you're working

or you're recommending it to some of the people you're working with, like, how are you seeing and using whoop yourself? And then how are you seeing it use amongst your peer group? The biggest thing that I look at it is for the overtraining aspect of it all, because coming out of rugby league, we're obviously training at a pretty high level. And then since laving, I was only 24 and 27 now. So I love to train. And like we talked about training is a coping mechanism for me.

So I get in the habit of wanting to do too much and probably pushing it too much. So when I'm in the red, it's kind of like, it's a bit of an excuse for me for that afternoon or that following morning to not necessarily stop, like not necessarily to not do the workout, but maybe just pull it back. Instead of going for a 10K run, I'm not sure what the equivalent to Miles is over here. But it might just be a light walk, a recovery walk. So that's definitely the biggest thing that I've seen. in terms of mates who also use it I think the sleep is a big aspect of it like I'm learning more

about sleep consistency and the timing of sleep I did a really good podcast with emily capital Lupo and that was a really cool conversation around like when to go to bed and when to wake up and keep keeping them consistent mate I learned so much in that conversation was great but that's something that I'm seeing with mates who I might not be getting enough sleep they might just be getting four or five hours a night and I think that's fine and that's fluctuating my really good friends who I have a lot to do with, they're starting to be a bit more conscious of their bedtime. Yeah, you don't know what you don't track, right? Exactly. Exactly. And then the more conversations that we had, we had a conversation with Dr. Dean Miller around like the lighting

before going to bed, around what you can do before beds. So you're not so stimulated. And these are such great learnings. And these are actually being passed on to mates within our community. It's like you are the type of person of the people you hang out with. Yeah. And so when everyone's sharing these little things and I'm taking all these. I'm taking all these learnings back to Australia with me, you know, we're trying to push these out into the podcast. It's like, that's it. Yeah, that's the play, man. Tell us about the podcast, Kagan and Co. Tell us about the reason to start it and maybe like your favorite conversation that you've had so far. It's made. It's a long story. We'll be here all day. It's a, it's a mental

health and sport podcast. Like that's, that's the goal. The goal is to, you know, have conversations with athletes who we all look up to in the, in the hope to reduce the stigmas around mental health. And we understand that that every conversation is going to be different. You know, every athlete's story is going to be different, but it might resonate with someone and it might validate them and it might give them the tools and strategies to actually help them. We genuinely want to move the needle. And I think creating awareness and having conversation is great. But how do we make genuine impact? That's what I really want to look at. And that's why I want to give the right tools. And to be honest, you know, when you've got someone who you look up to and they're being open

and vulnerable about whatever it is, if they see that, it's like, well, that's cool. And that's fine and that's normal and I'm not, and I'm not weird. You know, it's not a weird thing for me. To be honest, I'm very fortunate that a lot of my friends back in Australia, they're all playing, they're in the best time of their careers at the moment. I'm very fortunate to be able to have these conversations where they probably might not be as likely to be so vulnerable with other people. One of the podcasts that stands out for me was a guy called Braden Maynard. He was a professional Australian rules player for the Hollywood Magpites, a ginormous club in Melbourne, Australia. They won the grand final at the end of last year, a couple weeks after they

won the grand final. We did a podcast. And I remember I've known Braden for a couple years now. He's a really good fellow, tough, tough guy, like known for being one of the toughest players in AFL. Also a guy you don't want to run into it in the alley, I bet. Yeah, big dude, man. I remember him talking on a previous podcast about how he was struggling with a few things back in 2017, but he'd never spoken about it. And I'd already spoken to him of what we wanted to talk about through our podcast. But I just called him the night before, and I was like, hey, bras, like, I heard about these things in the previous podcast. Is this something that you want to talk about on tomorrow's episode? And he's like, Kiggs, like, respectfully, like, love what you're doing, happy to come on. But it's just

something I'm not willing to talk about. Like, I talk to my club psychologist and my teammates. And other than that, no one else knows. I was like, man, fine. Just the fact that you're coming on is huge in itself. The next day, we're in Melbourne. We're mid-podcast. We're having a lot of laughs at the podcast. We're midway through the podcast and he said, Kiggs, look, I know last night I said on the phone that I wasn't comfortable talking about what happened back in 2017, but, you know, I feel so comfortable here, you know, I feel like talking about it could actually do some help. We could actually help people. Okay. And I'm sitting there like, what is it? I'm like, well, what happened? What brother did was he went on to talk about how he struggled

with OCD for the last, you know, seven or eight years. And his thing was checking. So did I lock the back door, you know, checking like, and constantly. And he would do that all night. So he would go to training sessions, semi-finals, grandfiles, he would not sleep at all. He'd be laying in bed thinking, like, what is wrong with me? Like, there's got to be something wrong with me, and he couldn't figure it out. And he actually got super emotional in this podcast, and it really affected him. And then the best bit about that, not only was so open and vulnerable, but he also gave some really good tools and strategies about what helped him. So getting off his phone an hour before bed, so he's not so stimulated. Meditation and breathwork was a big one for him,

actually, talking to his club psychologist, Jackie Lauda, who's also incredible in that space. And then after that podcast, he's like, I feel so good. Like it was, it felt like it was almost like a relief for him. The feedback that we got from that podcast was incredible. You know, it's, it's mom and dad's sitting with their child who just got diagnosed with OCD, who's looking up to Braden as an idol. And it's like, well, Braden Maynard has it. Like, you're not any different from anyone else. You know, it's people who had struggled for years, but couldn't validate what they were feeling or what they were thinking. and what that were going through, but you've got, you know, the best player in the AFL talking

about it so openly and vulnerably. So that episode was one of the ones where it's like, wow, we're doing something cool here, man. But yeah, that's, it was a special one for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it still keeps going through that thread of like how you, how you've been helping people. And then like now the podcast is also doing like a lot of giving back and also coaching like helping other people again. So it continues to kind of fall back into that same thing. Thanks a lot for coming on. Thank you for being a member of WOOP. Thank you for using this tool to teach everybody all these great things that you've been learning about and also continuing to spread your good energy around. It seems like you're having a massive impact on your community,

on the people that you're working with. And I know that everyone here has definitely felt your great energy. So thanks a lot for coming on the show and wishing you nothing but the best and everything to come. Well, Jeremy, Matt, hey, thanks. Thanks for having me on, man. Like, you've been really great in the lead up to this trip. I really enjoyed getting to know you. You're a great man and I appreciate what you're doing, man. So thanks for having me. Thank you. Right back at you. Thank you. Big thanks to Kagan for sharing his incredible story. Check out Kagan on the Kagan and Company podcast.

If you enjoy this episode of the WOOP podcast, please leave a rating or review. Please subscribe to the Woop Podcast. You can check us on social at Woop at Will Ahmed. Have a question to what's the answered on the podcast. Email us, podcast at WIP.com. Call us 508-443-49-2. If you're thinking about joining Woop, good news. You can sign up for free.

That's at Woop.com. new members can use the code will W-I-L get a $60 credit on WOOP accessories when you enter the code at checkout all right that's a wrap folks thank you all for listening we'll catch you next week on the WOOP podcast as always stay healthy and stay in the green