WHOOP Podcast - Balancing Training and Building Mental Toughness with 2x HYROX World Champion Meg Martin

Episode Date: January 7, 2026

Welcome back to the WHOOP Podcast! To kick off the New Year, WHOOP Global Head of Human Performance, Principal Scientist, Dr. Kristen Holmes, sits down with 2x HYROX World Champion, Meg Martin. Meg joins the WHOOP Podcast to share what it really takes to push your physical and mental limits—without burning out. Meg shares how a childhood in gymnastics and sports aerobics built her discipline, why most people overdo intensity in their workouts, and how she and her husband balance elite performance with a focus on recovery and longevity. Meg and Dr. Holmes dives into sickness, travel, immune resilience, sleep, and why mindset work is the real secret behind achieving PRs. Meg presents the idea of “fears week”, a habit she has implemented in her coaching technique to help her clients grow on and off the HYROX course. Whether you’re looking to compete in HYROX, or hoping to build a stronger focus on mental strength, this episode provides you with the habits and mindset shifts to push your performance limits. (00:47) Meg Martin’s Journey to HYROX(02:11) What Is HYROX? (03:32) Building Mental Toughness For HYROX(04:43) “You Have To Love To Hurt” Why Athletes Are Drawn To HYROX(08:07) The Mindset Of A World Champion(10:29) Navigating Illness and Injury As An Athlete(14:48) How Meg Thinks About Sleep, Rest, And Recovery(18:16) Building A Supportive Team & Community(21:59) Incorporating Mindfulness in Coaching (27:54) Finding Happiness & Purpose To Overcome Fears(30:19) HYROX Training True or False Questions(36:29) Volume and Intensity Training As A HYROX Athlete(40:17) How To Build Your Pacing Instincts in HYROX(44:17) Being A Business Owner and Full-Time Athlete(46:55) A Message To New HYROX Athletes: Tips and TechniquesFollow Meg Martin:InstagramYouTubeTikTokSupport the showFollow WHOOP: Sign up for WHOOP Advanced Labs Trial WHOOP for Free www.whoop.com Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

There's a part of high rocks where you have to really love to hurt. It attracts a lot of athletes that are in sports that require a lot of mental strength. If you're going to achieve something, one, you've obviously got to believe it's possible, but two, you've got to put in the work to get there. And I think a lot of people might be willing to put in the work, but don't believe in themselves enough to believe that it's possible. When people train every day hard as much as possible, it's normally out of a place of fear, as in fear that they won't win

or fear that if they don't train today, it's going to result in a bad race on their race date, whatever it is. I think a lot of the time it does come from fear. So if you can teach people how to just be focused on the session that they're doing on that day and experiencing that session and learning from that session, if you have a bad session or a session that, no, you feel really fatigue. Don't get down. Don't take it so personally. Meg Martin. Welcome to the Woot podcast. Thank you so much. I'm so pumped to be here. Well, I'm so pumped to have this conversation. You are just like an absolutely epic human. And I don't know. It's, it's, it's, It's so impressive, I think, what you've been able to do in the world of high rocks and talk a little bit.

So just so listeners can orient themselves around, how did you get into high rocks and kind of, what was that breakthrough moment for you? My background was I was a gymnast really young. After I finished gym, I sort of focused on my studies to finish school. I was a really young elite gymnast. And then after that, I got into gym and running. So I was kind of already living in that hybrid athlete life before it was technically called being a hybrid athlete. And then it was actually friends of ours. So Lucy Davis, you guys, I think, interviewed her.

Yes, another epic human. Yeah, so epic. And we met her before High Rocks came to Australia. So obviously, it's only been in Australia for three years and recommended to us to do High Rocks because we were already kind of competing that way. But we had no expectations of how it would go. And then Will and I raced our first race in Melbourne

had no idea what to do in High Rocks. And I think we got a 58 something, which at the time, I think the record was 56 in mixed doubles. So we were only like two minutes off the record, and it was our first ever race. So we thought we're actually pretty good at this. And what were the components of that race? Are you familiar with the workout of fireworks? Yeah, but I think for our listeners, it's just great for them to just understand, you know, what are the exact components of strength and cardiovascular. Yeah.

So it's eight 1K runs, split up by eight functional exercises. So the first is at 1K ski erg. and then it's sled push, sled pull, which are both 50 meters, and the weight changes depending on what category you're in. And then it goes into 80 meters of burpee broad jumps, 1K row, which is savage because it's in the middle of the workout. And then you've got 200 meters, farmers carry 100 meters of sandbag lunges, and then 100 war balls. And then you have 1K runs in between all of those. So it's the same for every time. Okay, I didn't actually realize that. So that's interesting. The only time it changes is, for example, if you do solo, you do the whole workout.

If you do doubles, you do all the runs, but you split the gym exercises. And then if you're in a relay, you would do two 1K runs and two of the exercises. But that's it. So you only do technically two Ks and two exercises in the whole relay. But relay, even relay, that sounds easy. When you're going max effort for a K straight into an exercise, the lactic is next level. Yeah, I mean, yeah, just the burning sensation and, like, every part of your body is... It's horrible.

It's not easy to overcome. Yeah. At what point is that just really mental for you? And what part, you know, because there's a physical reality, right? Yeah. I just a flactate filled up, right? Like, your body does start to shut down. So obviously, your training is preparing you to kind of move those thresholds.

Like, but at what point does it become like, well, I just have to push through this and that's the difference? It's a good question. I think relay is probably the time where I felt like my body has failed me more than my mind has because the lactic is so intense. But when you're doing doubles or solo, you're not at that peak level that's not sustainable. As in because you're relayed technically if you run a 3.30 and then you did a three minute war balls, then that's like six minute 30 of max effort exercise. It's a lot of lactic.

Three minutes is a long time, actually. Yeah, I know. I'm just like thinking about that. I'm like, yeah. It's a lot. So I think relay more your body, but then it depends. If you're doing relay for fun, obviously it's not going to do anything. But then solo and doubles, I find it's definitely more mental.

And solos is even harder because you don't get any rest. So when you do the doubles, you both do the runs, but you split up the exercise. So you get rests. But yeah, definitely solos is extremely mental. Yeah. At this point, I've talked to a lot of, you know, just some of the very best in the world, CrossFit athletes, High Rocks athletes at this point. And, you know, there is a pattern of gymnastics as a foundation.

Tell me a little bit about how long did you compete for? In gymnastics, I was in, from when I was probably three until I was 10. So I was really young gymnast. Yeah, I wonder, I mean, gymnastics is just such a great, like, base foundation. I mean, you're running, you're sprinting, you're, there's probably a reason why high rocks athletes, lots of them end up being gymnasts or we're formerly gymnasts. Yeah, I mean, there's a part of high rocks where you have to really love to hurt too. So I think it attracts a lot of athletes that are in sports that require a lot of mental strength.

So gymnasts, track athletes, triathletes, they're all really savage sports in terms of having to push past that point of wanting to stop. So I think, yeah, I mean, gymnastics definitely taught me discipline from a really young age. And then I actually did a sport called sports aerobics after gymnastics, which is not as common. It's more of a European-based sport. but I was a world champion when I was 16 for that sport. Wow. Yeah. It was, I mean, and it's like world champion.

I just like, what does that mean? Like how many people are competing? There's two different types of sports aerobics. So there's one that's more American-based. But ours was Australian, European, like Czech Republic, German, Russian. They were always really good at it. I don't even know how many people would compete. Probably not so much now.

I think the sports faded. But at the time, you do like a prelim, semis and finals. and at worlds there would be everyone's got to qualify to get into worlds so they would only probably take top three from each country so maybe 50 athletes at worlds in your age category but yeah that was that was pretty cool and that's a two minute routine that's like max effort for two minutes pretty much and so as in you know how you said we were talking before of sometimes you get nightmares from field hockey and stuff like that how hard it is yeah i got nightmares from sports aerobics it was so hard. But you also have to have a smile on your face. So I think that when I'm in pain,

now I smile because I'm used to doing that. So there's an aesthetic component to sports aerobics. Yeah. It's like gymnastics cross with dancing, but to the intensity of CrossFit for two minutes is the best way to explain it. It's an interesting sport. God, what are the age? Were you competing inside an age range? Yeah. So I was 14 to 16 age group. And then I stopped to focus on my studies in grade 12. Okay. So you did it all the way through. Yeah. from when I was 11 to 16. Wow. And how many times did you win worlds?

Only that one time, actually. When I started a very big... Sorry, 15. You were 15 when you were? So I was not top age, which was unusual. And then the following year I went back. It's actually a great lesson for me. I went back and I guess the expectation was on me to win because I was top age and I'd won

when I was 15. And I came second by 0.1 of a point. And it just, it was a big turning point for me where I realized that. if your focus is only on winning and you're not enjoying a sport, then if you don't win, it feels like the whole year's wasted. Yeah. And sort of learning that win on all levels rather than win at all costs. So I definitely choose to do things that I love and as a result do well at it rather than

do it purely with the focus to win. Well, it's a beautiful life lesson. Yeah. I was blessed to learn it the hard way. Yeah. So when you're 15 years old and you kind of put your head on the pillow at night and you're like, wow, I'm the best in the world. What does that feel like?

It was so cool because I didn't expect it to happen. So when I was 15 and I competed that year, I was just doing it because I love the sport. I didn't have any expectation to win. I think I'd maybe come forth the previous year or something like that. So I just didn't, I just wasn't really thinking about it. I was just thinking I love this sport. It's so fun, we get to travel. And so when I competed and I remember finding out, I reckon it's one of the most euphoric feelings I've had was winning.

because it's just really low expectation and then huge reward in terms of the feeling. But yeah, it's very cool. Maybe contrast that to winning worlds at high rocks. What was that feeling like? And this is maybe a decade apart from that moment when you were 15. That makes you feel a bit old. You're only 25, so when you were first one, right? Yeah.

Interesting. I think for us, for Will and I, so I won mixed doubles with Will the first time. and then I won women's doubles with Molly the second time. When I won mixed doubles with Will, I was actually sick at World. So I know we're going to talk about it. But for some reason, this last year, I have struggled with sickness a lot. And I am definitely doing my own research into what's going on. And I have my own theory, interestingly.

Segway, share it. Yeah. Well, so Will and I, when we competed at Worlds last year, so the 24, 25 season, we won. But we had COVID at Worlds. We didn't find out until after we competed, but it was... So you won with COVID? Yes. But I guess the feeling that I had to answer your previous question was that I would

rather come second and get a time that I know I'm capable of than win and know that I didn't really give the best race that I could have, if that makes sense. A thousand percent. Yeah. So for us, it was amazing to win. And it was the first gold medal for Australia. So that was really exciting. But we just knew we had so much more in the tank.

So it was kind of happy, sad in a way. And when you're an athlete, you know what you're capable of. So you just want to do your best. And obviously you've trained so long to get a time or don't feel sorry for me. I still want worlds. But that's my honest answer. But in terms of sickness, after we got COVID, we came back and then we got influenza A. And then we got pneumonia.

I got bronchitis. We got some other virus after that. And then we got sick again at Worlds. So my theory is actually, because we work with a really great nutritionist, she looks at all of our bloods, all of our supplements and everything like that. We have a great coach who's also a doctor. So we're very well looked after. And the only thing that I can really think could be causing it is that we live such a clean

lifestyle that as soon as we get on the plane, we're not used to germs. I don't know if this isn't scientifically back to anything. But I actually think because we train at home, we have our own gym set up, we order our food, to our home like we I don't really go many places you're not exposed yeah no that there actually is plenty of scientific evidence back that I mean that's why we tell children you know it's good to get your hands dirty it's good to you know you build up immunity by exposing yourself to those pathogens yeah right so yeah that's exactly what's yeah and it's actually back in science yeah so we just joke we're just going to go to the gym and lick the floors once I know it's kind of like an ironic thing you

know, where you're, I kind of find myself in the same boat. I have a, you know, pretty, I'm really into kind of aligning my circadian rhythms with the natural light, dark cycle. So I'm just kind of super. And that's one of the ways I think I, I'm able to avoid being kind of sick and injured is, is I really think about my circadian behaviors. But when I'm in a situation where I have to kind of move away from that, I'm okay for like the first few days. But then after that, I really start to feel it. And I think it's because I think when you are leading kind of a pretty structured kind of routine life, it makes you more robust to potential deviations from that routine for a certain point. And then after that certain point, obviously, it catches up with you. And then you become

vulnerable just like the rest of the population, right? But I think the difference is the rest of the population is adapted to a lower level of functioning just all the time generally, right? Whereas you know what you're capable of. You know what it's. like to fire on all cylinders, because that's your normal, right? So when you deviate from that, you can really feel it. It's super obvious. Yeah. I think as athletes, we are definitely hypersensitive. As in you just know, when it's coming down to minutes and seconds, you can tell. Yeah. So, I mean, I can't recommend racing sick. It's not necessarily the most enjoyable experience. And it does, I mean, the fact that you got really sick afterwards is evidence that, you know, like you

push your body to the absolute limit. And then it just. it's called the letdown effect. There's like a kind of a after you go through a period of time where your body is hypervigilant, hyperstress, right, which is the high rec championship. So if you're going into that already compromised, what happens afterwards is your body just literally shuts down because there's so much inflammation. There's so many things that they have to deal with that it like doesn't want you to move anymore. So it just shuts you down by making you sick. Because we never get sick at home, as in we would probably do less. volume of training than a lot of the high-ox athletes that are competing at the moment is,

and we do significantly less, but we just train with more, I guess, intensity and focus with certain goals in our training. I love that. Yeah, I think it's just as soon as we get on those planes, we get sick. But the perfect example is right now I'm in an off season and I've been going to public gyms. Before I came for this trip and touchwood, I don't get sick, but we've been on the plane and we're not sick.

So how come then when we go to Worlds? haven't been exposed to it, we obviously get sick as soon as we get on the plane. So that's always how it seems to happen a few days after we get. Because we always go really early, it's and we're there for two weeks earlier. But it also seems that once we get sick, we take a while to shake it. It really rocks our body. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, just the intensity of the competition itself is just so taxing on the body. Yeah. Yeah. January Jumpstart is officially live and there's still time to join. Commit to this four-week challenge designed to help you build routines that last long beyond January. Jump in now in the Whoop app and start seeing progress.

How do you think about your sleep? Sleep was always something that I guess being a uni student previously and an athlete, it was just kind of the first thing to go because if you need more time, it was just the easiest place to take it from is sleep. And you can probably get away with that a little bit more when you're younger. But I have definitely noticed that if I, do not get enough sleep, then not only do I not feel great, but obviously found having a healthy sleep routine and following your circadian rhythms, a huge game changer for my recovery and sleep. Probably above everything is actually one of my main things I prioritize as well as nutrition, obviously. Amazing. How long do you need to spend in bed, do you feel, you know, because you're doing

quite a lot of volume and intensity over the course of a week, over course a month, of course a year. Do you find that you need to spend more time in bed? Or have you kind of backed into a sweet spot where you feel like, all right, this is my, this is my duration that really is where I can get the most sort of sleep. And yeah. I think I'm pretty good at sleeping in general, as in I'm not someone that wakes up all the time in the night. So my quality of sleep is really good. But I still try, I would like to get probably 10 hours, but I probably get eight hours most of the time. But, and I find that if I get less than eight hours, then my recovery will be reduced for sure. So, yeah, the more sleep, the better for me. But,

Of course, like being an athlete, fitting two sessions and in a day, plus having a business, sometimes it doesn't always look right. But I think sleep is one of our best methods for longevity. So I was trying to prioritize it. Yeah, that's good. I mean, we definitely know that you can oversleep too. You know, and I think just something to pay attention to. Really? I don't know that.

We've been inside these data for quite a long time trying to figure out, you know, what exactly is healthy sleep? Because as sleep scientists, there's not a lot of consensus on what we don't really have a great definition. So we've been using our massive data set to try to understand how much sleep do we actually need. And one of the things that we see is that super high-fit folks like yourself actually need a bit less sleep. Right. Right. And you can imagine there's patches of time in your training when you are going really hard and you might have a little bit more inflammation than normal. But if you think about this from the perspective of a low-fit person who has a lot of

systemic inflammation. It stands a reason that in order for them to recover from that, they need to spend more time in bed. And that's actually what we're seeing reflected in the data. The really low-fit folks need more time in bed to achieve the restorative sleep that they probably need to feel good and function that next day. Wow. Yeah, whereas high-fit folks have better consolidated sleep, less fragmentation, and as a result tend to spend a bit less time in bed. I mean, we're probably so naked from joining the foot just ready to go. There's no question about it, right? The more, like when you're super active during the day, you're just going to sleep more soundly, right? So there's that dynamic for sure. But I do think

that there's a really heavy inflammatory component to sleep that I don't know that is really discussed that often. But my hypothesis is that that is actually what we're seeing in the data is athletes have less systemic inflammation. And as a result, need less time to recover with sleep. So interesting. Yeah. It really is fascinating to kind of see it play out like that. But I think back to your original point about just how you feel that's going to be that, you know, are you alert enough, how's your training body? You know, all the things that you're already doing. Like that's the best indicator of like, all right, actually, am I recovering enough? Am I getting enough sleep?

Yeah. So you're doing everything perfect. I'm trying. Yeah. And I really have a great nutritionist that's taught me a lot. So it's really helpful. Talk a little bit about your team. Okay.

Who's around you? Well, I mean. You mentioned it briefly. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously my husband is, my husband is also my training partner. And how long have you been married? Three and a half years.

Yeah, it's so exciting. I feel very blessed. That sounds so cheesy, but I really married a good one. And it's so funny. You train together. Yeah, we do everything together. So obviously, Hirox is our main sport. But before we started, we were doing like skiing, surfing, like solo skydiving.

Like we do like ultramarathons. We just like pushing the limits together. But we're also both super invested in our health and long. longevity. So I obviously Will is probably the main person that I spend time with. And then in terms of the people that I seek advice from, I have my physio, who is also a doctor. His name's Aaron. And then I have my nutritionist, whose name is Robin. And she's also a naturopath, which is great because I love that she combines the two. And I often have really disgusting herbs that I have to take at times. But it's been so helpful because I don't think I would have recovered from the sicknesses that I had as well. if I didn't have Robin and learning from her is amazing. And then I also have, he's kind of like a mentor, perspective, shape, up dude. His name's Trevor Hendie.

He was like a Iron Man. So he was like the G of Iron Man's. Nice. And he sort of taught me that mentality of win on all levels rather than win at all costs. So he went through his own experiences in life that taught him how you can actually enjoy the process and also win because I think often for me I've always I've been told you know it's not all about winning and things like that but telling an athlete that is counterproductive kind of go straight over the head yeah and so he's he's the way that he speaks to us and he just

he's kind of like a mentor I guess you can say is that he's saying you can still win but you can win on all levels you can enjoy the process you can smile at your competition and appreciate the fact that they're pushing you to do more as well as obviously win so yeah they're the main people i'm trying to think if i've missed anyone i think that's it i love that you know winning can feel it's very complicated i think for athletes you know in some way and i think having a framework on how to think about because there's a lot of paradoxes you know really that's a winning and you just called out a few of them and i think i love that you you emphasize that because i think for a lot of our listeners too like it's just easy in sports aside competition aside

athletics aside you know i think we all experience you know winning in our own lives you know and just thinking about what does that actually mean and and i think it's easier to say well enjoy the process than to actually enjoy the process yeah right into to appreciate it and you have to train that mentality you know in the same way that you train in other aspects of your life because i don't think it it naturally i don't think it comes easy you know and when i reflect to my own athletic career like I didn't have a lot of joy as training and competing. I think that's pretty common too. I think it's the norm for a lot of high level athletes. And that's, you know, one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about lately. And I love that you have someone to mentor you

on how to create a framework that allows you to approach your day to day in a way that is, that's healthy, you know, and that allows you to tap into that joy in ways that are really authentic. because I don't think that's, that's not, it's not common, you know, it's been really helpful. And do you transfer that to the athletes that you coach? Yeah, definitely. I mean, so in all of my programs that I give out, we do a whole mindset component to them. It's actually why we get such insane results because. Love that, Meg. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to achieve something, one, you've obviously got to believe it's possible, but two, you've got to put in the work to get there.

And I think a lot of people might be willing to put in the work, but don't believe in themselves enough to believe that it's possible, as in that's definitely something that I've always had as this deep internal self-belief, probably because when I was really young in gymnastics, you see that if you work hard, you can get results, but not everyone is lucky enough to have the same experience young. And so we, I also used to be super shy and like a little bit socially awkward. And so I worked, I mean, it's the truth. And I really worked and quite limited by fear as well. So I worked really hard on my mindset even before I met this mentor. In my running programs, for example, every week you have a mindset challenge. So not only do people get this insane

PB at the end of their program, but they also have all these small milestones along the way that they can build confidence from, as in what's the point in competing if it's not going to make you feel good? As in, yeah, I really feel that strongly. And I think obviously coming second the following year after winning worlds for sports aerobics, I learnt that then. And I have found myself sometimes falling back into that sort of pattern of thinking but then i just go meg it's not worth it if it's not going to be an enjoyable process along the way yeah because you can just tie your self-worth so yeah closely to outcomes you know and that that can be so draining you know and just uh take the joy out of the day to day for sure but but absolutely out of the out of the

competition yourself you know well i'm going to try your program amazing i'll send it to you I'm going to give it a go. It would be great. I'm excited. What you're doing is, well, I love that you're just approaching performance and competition just like so holistically, you know, because to your point, I don't know that everyone has had that experience. You know, it's kind of coming into maybe this type of training without any experience, you know, so I think you're kind of giving, it sounds like, all the pieces to the puzzle. Hopefully. Yeah. I mean, that's what I want to do. I feel I was blessed to have that realization myself and it changed my life. It gave me true confidence as in one of the weeks we do a fears week so people literally go out as in you're doing

a running program and you're doing a fears week but for example if you're afraid of rejection then next time you're at the coffee shop you've got to start a conversation with whoever's there as in there's little challenges along the way that really build true confidence and it's cool though like I mean I'm I'm super passionate about it because it changed my life and I've seen the lives of all these people who have done the program completely changed and they're getting not like a couple of second P.Bs, 10 weeks, like 30-minute half-marathon PBs and stuff, like 30 minutes and not like they're going, not like they're going from three hours, like some of them two hours to 1.30. Like that's wild. Crazy. Yeah. Wow. And what would you attribute it to just this more holistic approach?

Is it just, you mentioned earlier, just really being mindful about volume and intensity and it's more is sometimes just more, it's not better. Is it just a combination of all of those things? Yes. And I, I really do think that the mind is not something that we can really fully understand yet. So we don't really look at it and go, oh, well, that person has, like, how do you quantify confidence or discipline? And so I think that's what I'm most interested in is the mindset. Because if I was to really compare my training that I do to a lot of other people in the sport of high rocks, they would be doing much more than what I am doing, probably, you know. From a volume perspective. Yeah. Yeah. And, but I don't, I think what sets me apart, and I'm not saying that the other athletes don't have this

because some of them definitely do, is that mindset and, you know, resting in the fact that, you know, if one day I'm feeling really sick or I am injured, I'm okay with not training, you know? So I definitely think knowing who you are and what you're capable of is a superpower that can't really be quantified at this stage. Yeah, I think honoring your body's rhythms and the signals your body is sent. is is important you know I but I think that takes like also listening to your body you know and like actively you know in the days that you feel really good too you know not in the days that you just that you feel bad right but it's it's kind of collecting like all this data on yourself

yeah you know so you can be more informed and how you live your life and how you train and how you move in the world and I think living out of a place of faith it doesn't matter of what your belief is But when people train every day hard as much as possible, it's normally out of a place of fear, as in fear that they won't win or fear that, you know, if they don't train today, it's going to result in a bad race on their race date, whatever it is. I think a lot of the time it does come from fear. So if you can teach people how to just be focused on the session that they're doing on that day and experiencing that session and learning from that session,

if you have a bad session or a session that, you know, you feel really fatigued, okay, don't get down, don't take it so personally. Look at your body as like a, not like a machine because it makes it a little bit insensitive, but kind of like that. So you wouldn't get disappointed in your car if it just stopped working. You just go and figure out what's wrong with it and help it again. So, yeah, I kind of try and look at it more from that perspective as well. Is there anything you're afraid of?

That's a good question. Most people's answer, I guess, would probably be like not fulfilling your potential. And I do feel that a little bit, as in I do believe in God, and I think I don't want to go to heaven and God be like, this is who you could have been. You know, I really want to impact as many people as I can while I'm here. I love that. Yeah, and you just over the course of this kind of short conversation, you've talked a lot about fear and trust. And, you know, I think being aware of the emotions of fear and how they show up in your life is a really important source of insight, you know, because you can transform those feelings and those emotions. to emotions of trust if you can get curious about them and understand them. And that's really

powerful. And I love how that's kind of very accessible and seamlessly built into the experience that you've created for the people who have your programs. You know, like, because I don't know that people think about those emotions very often, you know, and how they are kind of the silent architect of your life, right? Like without knowing it, right? Like if you think about all the things that people are afraid of or how fear manifests in their life in terms of how they engage in the world and their profession and their relationships, right? That's like such a powerful component, you know, and to be able to kind of zoom out and think about, all right, where does fear show up in my life? And how is that holding me back from my potential? Yeah, you've got to lean in. I also don't want

to make clear that it doesn't necessarily not work as in there's definitely people who are, you know, competing and getting great results from feel or from maybe hurt and things like that. It works, but it depends what you consider as success because, you know, if you go and win that Olympic gold, but you are feeling horrible in your life as in you see a lot of Olympians struggle when they do win because they've told themselves that when they win they'll be happy and then they win and they're not, they don't feel anything. So I think it depends what you consider as success.

It doesn't mean it doesn't work, but I find that if you do it this way, then it means that when you win, you will feel fulfilled as well and you will have looked back and being like, wow, I enjoyed that whole process rather than I hate it every day and then I won. Yeah, that is absolutely short-term can, but when you're thinking about it from a long-term strategy, you know, operating from a place of fear is limiting.

Yeah. You know, it limits your potential in a lot of ways and opportunity for, like, real joy. Yeah, your experience of life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've definitely felt that personally in so many aspects, you know. Yeah. But trust is so expansive, you know, and opens us up to the world in ways that fear just doesn't. you know so i i love that you're offering that you know as a perspective trying to not perfect yet but

working on it yeah yeah yeah okay we're going to do a little social segment all right so true or false the sled push is the ultimate make or break station in a high rocks race yeah i i reckon true normally i'm not i'm not normally when we race after or maybe sled push and sled pool after sled pool is when the race starts normally i'm not leading until after those stations and then yeah people go out way too hard in high rocks as in when i won with molly we we beat everyone by three minutes as in that's a lot in high rocks yeah that is this is wild yeah okay so where is the sled race so you go ski sled push sled pool so first three and then but and you're running in between each one of those yeah okay so you're about or maybe

if you're doing a 53 or something, half of that, maybe 20 minutes in or something like that, maybe 18 minutes. Yeah, I'd say the race doesn't start until after those because you can really burn yourself out in either of them. Also probably sled pushed, but you can really struggle on the sled pool too. So I always say just let them go at the start, as in Molly and I probably came in eighth into the ski org and then we were winning from probably after sled pool. Wow.

All right, true or false. Training for high rocks is harder than actually racing it. Well, I don't think so. I feel like racing hyroxes. Well, because you're going to give it your all. I mean, I train really hard too, but there's just something about doing that high rocks race that always hurts. And if it doesn't, then I don't think you're going hard enough.

Well, definitely not. Yeah. No. Are you ever like, oh, my God, I just need this to be over? Yeah, sometimes when I've been sick in my races, you just think. oh golly this is really dragging on but um I can't believe you're still winning under those conditions yeah it's been interesting yeah um all right true or false racing doubles is more trust than talent hmm I don't know how much I mean maybe I don't notice it because I

race with my husband and a friend of mine so we already have the trust built but I don't really think it's talent either because it's not really skillful for high rocks didn't answer that very well but I don't think RRex requires that much skill per se. It's more fitness, yeah, and grit, yeah. Although the row, there are some technical aspects to some, I mean, skier, too. You can have technique, yeah, of course. Yeah, which creates some efficiencies probably in some level of like. But it's not like you're going and, you know, shooting and doing archery or something.

That's true, yes, and that's what I think is more skillful. Yeah, yeah. Or doing, I don't know, surfing or something, because in, yeah. It's super hard or gymnastics. I'm more thinking anyone can do a high-rox, but to do well, obviously, you want to refine your technique more. Yeah, true or false. Coaching other athletes taught you more about recovery than your own training ever did. I feel like I took what I learned in my own training and then applied it to my athletes.

But it has taught me that most people don't understand and I have to really emphasize just trust the process because when I tell people in easy sessions, please go easy, it's really hard. to get that into their heads mainly out of fear because they really want these goals so much that they're almost willing to do it at the detriment of their own bodies. But obviously, sometimes you have to learn that the hard way. Yeah. I think like just my last like 15 years, I was a coach prior to coming to Wu nine years ago and it's just become abundantly clear to me that people really don't understand recovery and the role of recovery.

I just finished writing an entire book about it. And that you perform. bed out if you recover. There's no question. And it's like recovery is literally, we just got through, we're in the process. It's in peer review right now, but this amazing paper looking at professional golfers over the course of five years, all their kind of golf performance data, and then all of the physiological data kind of running alongside. It's like over 500 events, over 300 people, close to 400 people in this data set. It's really like robust. But the main takeaway is that the athletes in that study who really think about recovery as a way.

of being in the world are three shots better than the dudes who aren't. Wow. Right? So recovering it is this really powerful lever that I just don't think people really understand how to leverage in their day to day. Because it's not just about, and this is what this data set really showed us, it's not just about one day. It's about how you're thinking about the entire year.

Yeah, there's this insane compound effect that shows up in how they perform over the course of a year. Well, it's the same with training. So if you train one day, it's not really going to do that much, but training consistently, it's the accumulation of the training sessions. And I remember, I can't remember, I just said I remember, but I can't remember who told me. But if you look at the breakdown of your sessions, like not every session should feel good or you're probably not pushing it hard enough in some of your intensity sessions.

So I think, obviously, majority of them should feel good, especially the easier ones. But there's going to be some that don't feel good, and that doesn't necessarily mean you're doing the wrong thing, just means that you've got to be on that limit of pushing without going too far. And like sometimes in order to find where the limit is, you go too far. Right. But that's part of learning as an athlete too. I guess the best athletes are the ones that are curious enough to look for the statistics and assess and reflect on their own training and recovery.

So awesome. What's up, folks, if you are enjoying this podcast or if you care about health, performance, fitness, you may really enjoy getting a whoop. That's right. You can check out whoop at whoop.com. It measures everything around sleep, recovery, strain, and you can now sign up for free for 30 days. So you'll literally get the high performance wearable in the mail for free.

You get to try it for 30 days, see whether you want to be a member. And that is just at whoop.com. Back to the guests. True or false, intensity matters more than volume. Oh, that's a hard question. I don't know. I would probably say, I would probably say both. Yeah, I mean, they both matter.

Yeah, they do. I don't know which one I would say matters more. I kind of would have to say both, as in, because I think volume particularly is unique to the individual and the sport, obviously, and then intensity, again, unique to the individual and sport is, and you're not going to get people who are doing ultra-altramarathon. doing super intense sessions, it doesn't really make that much sense. They might do one or two in a week, but yeah, that's a hard question to answer. Yeah, I guess I'm wondering, too, like, you know, does volume alone create enough stimulus to prepare you for the demands of, like, a high rocks race? I think intensity is important.

Yeah. Yeah, especially because the whole race you're in that lactate threshold. Yeah. Intensity level. But also, I don't think that just training that intensity all the time is good. which is what most people do. As in if you speak to the general pop of high rocks, their training is going to look like five or six hit classes a week.

And I'm thinking your body must not be doing very good on the inside. And you're also selling yourself short of so much potential. So both are important. I'm sorry that I can't give you a one answer. No, it's good. No, yeah, I was kind of asking for myself. I was just curious, like how you think about that. Because when I observe some of my friends who are doing the training,

I'm like, wow, like these are really intense. sessions like four or five times a week. Yeah, in my opinion is that's too much. I would only do two to three intense sessions a week and then pretty much everything else will be easy. And from an energy system, are you, is it really thinking about, like, are you in zone three primarily? Or are you really getting into those upper kind of four to five heart rate zone areas? It's a, it's a mixture. If I'm doing four to five, it would normally be more intervals. Okay. Although four, I would probably sit at four for my lactate threshold style sessions.

And then normally far out from a competition, I would spend a lot more time in Zone 2 and then closer towards the competition or combine Zone 2 with Zone 3, longer runs. But yeah, I find as if I'm further out from a race, it's lots more easy, strength-based and aerobic-based stuff. And then obviously you drop the volume as your intensity increases coming closer into competition. I think a lot of people go wrong where they try and keep the volume the same and then increase the intensity. And I don't think that creates good results. Interesting. Yeah. There's a lot of really good nuggets that you are dropping. Well, I mean, it's from my own experiences and I only really speak on

things that I've done myself. And I mean, everybody at the moment is trying to say they have the best high rocks programming. And, you know, we're all probably programming pretty much the same stuff. So So really, I think that most people train with coaches for accountability, and the main reason people train with me is because I really focus on that mindset side of things anyway. But if people are saying, you, I have the best high rocks program, like, it's probably just the same as what the other person is doing. There are some different styles, but yeah, a lot of them are just way too much volume, way too much intensity.

Yeah. I think like when you get to the very top levels, there is, you know, I think about this from just a coaching perspective, right? Like technically, tactically, like MBA, NHL, or like, you know, an AFL league, right? Like, for the most part, the talent and the coaching is going to be similar. But it's like these other areas that if they're missing from your infrastructure, if they're missing from your programming, you're just not going to maximize your potential, right? And that's really the difference of being able to sustain levels of winning versus not.

Yeah. Okay, true or false. The secret to winning high rocks is as much about mental pacing as it is about muscular and I would say, yeah. I really think there's a big part of the mental and believing that you can do it and being willing to push because everyone has different pain, thresholds and tolerances of what they can handle too. And then being strategic strategy in races is a game changer. Then if you go out too hard, it's really hard to come back from that. Whereas if you just build into it, then I mean, I think it's a high rock rookie thing to do is just go out too hard. Yeah. And that's okay you learn and then you don't do that again yeah you kind of need to be like a horse you need to have like those little blinders on yeah because that's why I would need that because it's so hard like when someone to your left or right is going like balls out and you're like are they going to sustain that like am I going too slow like that would definitely I would need like a really clear

strategy yeah and that hard thing too is you can't see your pace when you're running so I think because you're inside most of the time you're um if you most people will wear garment watches or something like that you literally can't see your pace. It will just not work in most buildings. Oh, interesting. So then people, I think, get stuffed up if they have spent their whole time whenever they train, always looking at the watch. One of my advice for my athletes is to, when you train, yes, you use your watch,

but also make sure that you're familiar with how that pace feels without just always living off, like, am I on pace? Am I on pace? Yeah, yeah. Try and get to your pace and then use your own self-awareness to make sure you're on pace because otherwise you get in a high rocks, not even know what the pace feels like. Yeah.

And then just it can go bellies up real quick. I love that. And I think like for athletes who don't have a lot of experience pushing themselves to those kind of limits, we'll struggle. Yeah. You know, like I think you, like it takes, I think it takes a lot of experience to like actually like build that intuition.

Yeah. Around pacing, you know, and I feel like, I know for me like now, like I can run eight 400s and I'll be. be within a second of one time from each repetition. But that's taking, that's, you know, running track and field for like 30, you know, like years and years and years, you know. So if you were to train without any kind of pacing devices, how do you tap into that instinct of like knowing how fast to run to be able to sustain whatever repetitions you need to do in that workout, for example? Yeah, I mean, my immediate thought is experience. So obviously, that is one thing that I have in all my programs

is if we do something like eight, four hundreds or maybe 10, 800s. It's a pretty gross session, but that's sometimes a session. Wow. Yeah, well, because you're working on 1K reps. So if that was a session, then people might, when they first start the program, they might stuff the session up and go out way too hard on the 800s. But if you, once you do that once, you sort of have an idea of how it feels to run an 800. And then, yeah, I think they experience for reps. But then obviously for something like a Zone 2, you can easily do, well, like, can you have a conversation at full sentences?

And I do encourage people in their Zone 2 runs to either not where I watch or like stop looking at 24-7 because people are just so locked into their devices that, you know, they're probably not even enjoying that they're out in nature. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, now I'm at a point where I'm just how I feel is like almost as good as like a pacer. You know, like I know like I've basically trained myself to understand like how fast I'm running and like what that actually is going to feel. And I really credit whoop to like kind of just allowing me to build that intuition, you know. Yeah.

Meg. So in addition to being just this like ultra human hierarchs athlete, you own two businesses. Yeah. So you are very busy. Talk to me a little bit about what the name of the business is, what you do. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So my husband and I have two separate businesses. One is the app that we've spoken about. So it's called Train to Go Squad. And I guess the reason why it's called Train to Go Squad is because I lack the concept of being trained to go. So ready for anything. So it's more of a learn how to live your life and train with longevity rather than just live event to event. You're still going to get great results. But I just, I love doing all different things all throughout the year. And, you know, a half marathon might pop up and you can go and do that. But you might also be strong enough to go and do a tough mud or something like that. I definitely love that concept.

So, and obviously we focus heavily on the mindset side of things as well. So we've got running programs, strength programs, hierarchs programs, all sorts of things on the app. And that's going really well. And then the other business that we have is apparel. And it's called mega. It started with socks. believe they are the best running socks you'll ever wear. And they seriously are. Like, we went, we flew to Europe and we traveled for eight months, setting up our relationships

with our manufacturers. And we got to work, we found this amazing factory that we got to work with in person. And we would literally, we bought the socks that we, we obviously tried so many different socks. Funny how, when you learn, when you go into a topic, there's so many details that you, as in, I know so much about socks. It's so funny. But it's like, And it's socks, but we didn't, so when we started the business, it was because we were doing ultramarathons, and we were struggling to find socks that were good enough to obviously last, 100Ks, 160Ks, and we had this brand that we liked, but every time we would wear them, we'd need to buy a couple of them for a race because they were quite thin and your toes would pop through

them and stuff like that. So we just thought, let's do it. And yeah, we got to work with this factory. We would try the socks on, go for a run. come back and make the changes, like, in person. And so on the socks, it actually has a number 28, because it's the 28th version of sock that we created. And these are available. Yeah. Sox are available right now, and our full collection should be out in the next few months. That's wow. Congratulations. Thank you. That's epic. Yeah, it's been a process. I mean,

your feet are so damn important. Well, especially in an ultra blisters. A lot of people get taken out because they get really bad blisters in their feet amongst like gut issues and stuff like that. But feet are a big problem in ultra-marathons. Yeah, definitely. Meg, you have shared just so many unbelievable nuggets of wisdom. You're just wise beyond your years. So nice. Yeah, no, you're so impressive.

You know, just in terms of just some closing thoughts, like is there anything that we haven't covered that you feel like you love our listeners to understand or to know about Hierox's training? anything. I mean, the thing that I think is probably most impactful for me is it's a quote of my own, but it's through the feats of others that we realize what's possible. It's through the feats of our own that we realize we're capable of more. And the reason why I say that is because it was what changed my life. And obviously I know we're talking about recovery and performance and things like that, but if you can use other people's stories to inspire you that you can do

something because there's plenty of people that have obviously probably been through worse and done better with it, then that's what can ignite your belief to go and pursue something. And then obviously every time you push your own limits in your own training, and I often get asked, well, then how do you actually do that? Is I believe it's through finding a reason to keep going, that means more to you than obviously stopping. So if there's something, I think often a lot of athletes and just people in general, we live our lives for ourselves. But if you can find something, a purpose that is greater than yourself, that's when your athletic performance and also your life experience goes to another level.

What is that for you? My purpose. I mean, I think to share that we're all capable of more and that your greatest contribution to humanity is to live your passion. As in if everyone in the world had the confidence and, capacity to pursue what they were put here to do is in I think everyone has a unique calling in life, then everyone would be so much happier, everyone would be so much healthier because obviously I believe that fulfillment is connected to your health as well. I just think that

would change the world. It would be transformational. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. If you enjoyed this episode of the WOOP podcast, please leave a rating or review. Check us out on social at Whoop at Will Ahmed. If you have a question to us answered on the podcast, email us, podcast at Whoop.com. Call us 508-443-4952. If you think about joining Whoop, you can visit Whoop.com. Sign up for a free 30-day trial membership. New members can use the code Will, W-I-L, to get a $60 credit on Whoop accessories

when you enter the code at checkout. That's a wrap, folks. Thank you all for listening. We'll catch you next week on the Whoop podcast. As always, stay healthy and stay in the green. It's nothing