WHOOP Podcast - Chris Mosier, first trans athlete to make Team USA, discusses finding yourself and his journey to becoming an elite athlete.

Episode Date: September 30, 2020

On this week’s episode of the WHOOP Podcast, Kristen Holmes sits down with Chris Mosier, the first trans man to represent the United States in international athletic competition. Chris is a trailblazer in the world of sports. He successfully challenged the International Olympic Committee’s policy on trans athletes and has made Team USA 6 times in duathlon and triathlon. Chris discusses advocating for trans athletes (4:10), his fear of losing sports after transition (7:01), finding yourself (11:44), supporting trans youth (14:47), sports and life lessons (21:32), recovering from two mini-strokes (24:31), finding running (26:14), painkiller abuse (31:08), using WHOOP (33:50), learning from the WHOOP Journal (39:03), and his motto to live by (43:05).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

Hello, folks, welcome to the WOOP podcast. I'm your host, Will Lamed, the founder and CEO of WOOP, and we are on a mission to unlock human performance. We build technology that's designed to help you improve your health and your performance. So it's a combination of hardware and software and analytics, all rolled up in the WOOP membership. You can get 15% off that WOOP membership. if you use the code Will Ahmed, W-I-L-L-A-H-M-E-D. We got a great episode for you today.

Our VP of Performance, Kristen Holmes, returns for an inspiring, important conversation with Chris Mosier. Chris is a remarkable person, an elite athlete, and a true trailblazer in the world of sports. He was the first trans man to make a U.S. national team, a feat he accomplished in 2015, when he earned a spot on Team USA's Sprint-Duathlon team. Before he could compete, Chris had to challenge the International Olympic Committee's policy on trans athletes. He served as the catalyst for the eventual change in IOC rules. He was the first trans athlete to ever compete at the Olympic trials in any sport and is now

a six-time member of Team USA. Chris was the first trans athlete to be featured in his own Nike commercial. It was also the first trans athlete to appear in the ESPN body issue. Kristen Holmes and Chris discuss his long and difficult journey to finding himself, how he overcame two many strokes before launching his career as an elite runner, and how he's used whoop to improve his performance both athletically and in his everyday life. We should note that this conversation touches on some difficult themes, such as depression, substance abuse, and trans youth suicide. Chris is very open about a lot of the struggles he has faced in transitioning. This is an eye-open

episode, and I think you'll take a lot away from it. Without further ado, here is Chris. I am so excited to introduce Chris Mosier to our listeners. Chris is an amazing athlete, human being, and whoop enthusiast. Chris also happens to be the first transgender athlete to represent the United States in international competition. This is a conversation about Chris's extraordinary life. It is a conversation about the privileges of gender, rights, and class. It is a conversation about identity and change in both the literal and figurative sense. Most importantly, it is a conversation about compassion, understanding, and education. Regardless of what gender you identify as, there is so much to learn from Chris's experience of searching for and finding the

core person and ultimately what that means to live in authentic life. On some level, we all need to be aware of the dangers of letting others define who we are. We take on a number of roles in our lifetime. But the process of discovering who we are is not just a matter of curiosity. It is a search for the principles by which all choices are to be made. Chris's journey gives us a rare opportunity to appreciate and learn from his process of discovery. Chris, we are so thrilled and thankful to have you here today to talk about your personal journey as a trans athlete competing at the highest level and everything that has come and comes with that. Wow, thank you so much. That was an amazing introduction. I feel like you have already set the bar pretty high for me. So thank you for that.

Well, I just have so many questions to ask you. What struck me, you know, reading, you know, everything that you've done in your life, you know, the first thing that came to my mind is, wow, Chris has had a lot of first first transgender athlete to represent the United States international competition. I mean, that is just mind-blowing. And then, you know, the first transgender athlete to be featured in a Nike commercial also, like, incredibly epic. So I guess, you know, there's just a lot of hype that comes with being first. I guess I would love to start and for you to talk about what is it like to kind of shoulder what must be an extraordinary level of advocacy.

Like, how do you do that? It's really interesting and humbling to hear it read back to me because I don't, you know, I don't really dwell on the first and the things that have happened. I mean, obviously it comes up when I'm doing my advocacy and when I'm doing speeches and whatnot. But in this case, it is really interesting. Really why I took on this role as advocate, which was a very clear, distinct choice that I made. Because I knew in 2009, when I was still participating with women, that when I transitioned, that I would be the first. Like, I just didn't see anybody who looked like me, who was participating in sports. And I didn't see any trans men

competing with men, which is what I wanted to do. And not just compete. I wanted to compete at a high level. Like, I didn't want to lose my competitiveness in order to be my authentic self. But I knew coming out that that would just be a one-time thing. Like, when you come out on the internet, you are forever labeled the transgender person, right? So it was a real choice. And, you know, it took me a long time to make that decision because I wasn't sure at that time what my life would look like if I was out, like, would I be safe? Would I be even allowed to play because there weren't rules in different areas? You know, for my local races, I had to out myself in order to participate in change categories. And so there were a lot of steps along the way, but all of it is driven

by my deep desire to make it easier for everyone who comes after me. Was there a moment where you maybe didn't know if you were actually going to be able to compete and what was that and just the gravity of that given that you're, you know, a huge part of your identity is just athlete, right? So how did you kind of reconcile, you know, that moment where you just didn't really know what the future was going to look like at all? Yeah, I mean, you nailed it. I think so many people can relate into this regardless of your gender identity. I grew up playing sports and that's where I felt the most at home. I felt the most like myself. made my friends, my family, my community was made through sports beginning at the age of four.

I remember playing t-ball, making friends, and all the way up through high school sports into college, even though I didn't play college sports specifically, you know, intramural sports and things that I felt comfortable participating in as I sort of figured out my identity at that time. All of that, like sport was just so essential to me. I think, you know, before I actually decided to transition and to tell people, there was a year and a half that I knew who I was deep down inside and I was just terrified to come out and to start my transition because I didn't want to lose sport. Like it was that important to me. And so there was that idea of like I'm not seeing people. No one in sport looks like me that I can that I can see. I don't see policies on the

websites or on, you know, talking to people. I don't even know if it's possible if I am possible in sport to participate with men. And so, you know, really thinking about that was the first time that I questioned, you know, whether or not I'd be able to play. And how that feels is, you know, obviously it was so important to me that it took up almost 18 months of my life of debating whether or not I would participate, like would transition. And when I finally decided, you know, it was really because I thought like I'm so uncomfortable

in the rest of my life. I'm not participating in sports. And at that point, like, it had just become so much for me to go in public and to have to use a women's restroom or to have somebody call me, she just became so almost debilitating for me. That's when I knew that regardless of what would happen in sport, even if I couldn't play anymore, I had to transition because I quite literally would not be here on this earth if I didn't. And so if they talk about it being an enormous decision, having a lot of weight, you know,

it was really truly a matter of life and death for me. And so, you know, sport took a second place to my survival at that point. That psychological weight that you describe, how does that manifest in just your daily behaviors, your actions, your relationships, you know, how you connect, your ability to be present? I mean, I just imagine that that impacts you at on such a profound level. Like, how do you just deal with the day to day? Like, how did you? Yeah, at that point, you know, I started to see a therapist talking about my gender identity

and sort of exploring my options. And, you know, so I was talking to somebody about it. And as I would talk more and more about it, you know, therapy is amazing just as a side note. Like therapy is incredible. just to have somebody, you know. Don't do this alone, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And just like, you know, not even, not even say anything back to me just to be a space where I could just work it out, right? And just like talk it through. And as I would talk, I would figure out more things about myself. What I always describe it as is I literally felt like a video game character that I would leave my house on full power every day. And

when I would go out in the world, you know, somebody would call me she and like a little bit of power would go down or I'd have to use a women's restroom or someone would question my gender and you know and things actually like as an adult in New York City in 2009 things like that were happening to me can multiple times a week that someone would say are you a guy or a girl or you know like make some sort of comment about my gender or my presentation in a way that was like really it was threatening it was scary it didn't seem safe and so you know every time that something like that would happen or I'd interact with somebody and, and they'd say she or, you know, whatever, my power would go down. And by the end of the day, after all of those, you know, sort of microaggressions,

the accumulation of those very small little things that didn't align with the way that I saw myself or that I felt deep down inside, you know, I'd come home and just be a shell and then have to recharge and do it again and again. And, you know, after time, it's like, it's like having a rechargeable battery. You know, it's good for a while. And then, like, after a year, it doesn't hold the same charge anymore. I really felt like that was the way that I was existing in the world. And how I dealt with that was like, it just came to a point where I, you know, that breaking point of being like, I can't do this anymore. Like, I actually can't, I can't picture myself being here for my next birthday if something doesn't change. You mentioned that you were four years old when you

knew something was different. And I'd love for you to just kind of talk through that moment when you became aware and kind of what that felt like and when you looked around and you didn't fit in. And I just, I guess I just wonder like what that moment is like for, for you when you're a child. And, you know, how do you wrap your brain around that? Can you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, hindsight is amazing, right? Like we can go back and say, okay, all of these things really line up and tell me who I am. But at the time, you had no idea. And as you said, you don't know who you are if you don't see a reflection of yourself, right? Like, if there's no example and you don't have the access to the terminology and the language to describe how you're feeling, then, you know, how do you process that?

At the age of four, I certainly didn't have it. Even in high school, I didn't have the language or the terminology to define who I was in a way that satisfied. other people's curiosity or accurately described who I now know myself to be. I distinctly remember being four years old on a hot summer day outside of Chicago. And we had a pretty modest little house next to my cousins who we shared a driveway with. And the modest little house had this incredible backyard. So, you know, like a soccer field for a backyard that just was the central hub before all kids in the neighborhood to play. And so we were always playing sports. It was awesome.

And I remember being four years old, running around with my shirt off with all of the kids in the neighborhood on a hot summer day. And my aunt pulled me around the back of the house and said, you can't run around like this. Little girls don't run around with their shirts off. And being four years old and looking around, and I'm like, well, my four-year-old body is the same

as all these other four-year-old bodies. And I just didn't get it. But it was like the first thing that I remember about gender that people, that someone said, hey, you can't do that or you are doing this wrong. And then, you know, through my childhood, I can think of hundreds of examples of, you know, being told that I couldn't wear a baseball hat because little girls don't wear hats or I shouldn't skateboard because little girls don't do that. And, you know, all of this time I'm thinking, okay, well, you're telling me I'm a little girl and I like to do this. So little girls do

skateboard, right? Like, I don't understand why I'm not allowed to do this. And, you know, I had a little brother and we would both play with the same toys. And it wasn't an issue until adults in my life told me that it was an issue. What is the message to parents? Like, how do we get past this? It does seem like such an antiquated way of just thinking generally, you know, knowing kind of what we know about the spectrum of kind of where we land, you know, as in terms of identity.

Like, how do we, what do we need to do to do to kind of? kind of change our language as just as parents, you know, and as, you know, if you can think about it through that lens, you know, of just listeners who, you know, are interacting with kids and, and how do we, how do we change that? There are so many factors that would make us or make a young person not want to disclose their identity, even if they know it deep down inside to be, you know, 100% true. We can just let people express themselves in the way that makes them feel most happy, most comfortable and isn't hurting anyone else. And I think that's the big thing. thing is that for any parent who has a non-binary, a kid who doesn't identify as male or female,

or a transgender kid or somebody who is questioning their own gender identity, a lot of times we have two options. It's you either have a trans kid or you have a dead kid. And I don't say that for shock value. I say that because the suicide statistics for the trans community are outrageous. And for many of us, you know, the thought crosses our minds that this world is not set up for us. So the best thing any parent could do is to let their kid be who they are and to love them because they're your child and you want to see them happy and succeed in life. The statistics around trans youth suicide are just sobering. I could, and I, Chris, I have to tell you, you know, literally just three weeks ago,

a classmate of my children, 13 years old. took his life in my gosh in my town so you know I think this I think things happen for a reason but the fact that I get to talk to you today is um is kind of therapeutic for me frankly um but I just you know these I can only imagine the dark moments that you've had in your life and you've described some of them and you talked about seeing a therapist you know what are some other strategies you know what can folks do to you know if they think their child is at risk in some way and how do we even start, where do we start, you know, to start to put ourselves on the other side of this horrible statistic. And it's just, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm certainly not a mental health

expert. And I'll, I'll say that first and foremost, but I have definitely, you know, had some dark moments myself and also have spoken to a lot of people who have had a lot of feelings and experiences and also some who are not here with us today because of, because of suicide. And And, you know, I think the biggest thing, as you mentioned, is loving your child, right? And that we, I assume, parents want their kids to succeed, to be happy to support them, you know. And that is no matter what, like, they are still your kid. And so leaving space open for them to be themselves, as I said, but also sending those messages, even if your kid hasn't come out to you, even if, you know, you're not sure that they, that they are gay or they are trans or they are non-biased. binary or, you know, any of those things, that just leaving the space open for them to explore that in a non-judgmental way. And I think a way that parents can do that. And, you know, here, like something great that Allies did for me as I was thinking about coming out was to give me hints that it would be okay for me to talk about who I was with them. And so whether

that was, you know, I had a supervisor who asked me, asked me a question actually about my name. So this is kind of fun. I punctuate my. my name when I type. I don't know why I've done it since sixth grade since I started to type that I either write CHRIS period or my full name and a punctuation period at the end. And my new supervisor at my job before I transitioned asked me on like her, you know, seventh or eighth day on the job, hey, I noticed that you punctuate your name. Do you want me to punctuate your name when I write about you? And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. Like, that person is interested in this tiny, you know, tiny detail.

So they're paying attention. And also they're trying to make me feel comfortable. So I think that this person is a safe person for me to disclose my identity to. And she was the first person that I came out to at work. I asked that she used they, them pronouns or not use pronouns with me. And she did so for an entire year before I came out to anybody else. But it was that little hint of saying something to me that made me know that that door was open. So I always tell like coaches or parents, the way that you can do that is when you see a story about a gay athlete or a trans athlete highlight that like you would any other athlete that's out there.

When you see issues of social justice come up and topics that are happening in current events, you see the WNBA players taking an incredible stance this season. and talk about that with your kid or with your players and open those doors to let them know that this is something that's on your mind and that it's okay for them to talk about it too. And I think that's really important. It's really key, just letting people know sending those small signals that you are a person

that they could talk to. You know, I do feel like the conversation is changing. I feel like people are more open, more tolerant. Do you feel that? Like, do you feel like the tides are kind of turning and that it's becoming more inclusive and if that's, yes, that's great, but, you know, if, if, and I'm sure there's parts of it that aren't, you know, I guess what are the pieces that are still, like, where do we need to make the most change,

I guess? Like, what still, you know, really bothers you, gets under your skin? Yeah, you know, the best way that I could say it is it's like a wave, right? So when we have a wave that crashes onto the shore, there's the pull back, where the wave pulls back. And I think, unfortunately, I feel like right now we are in that pulling back part. When I came out in 2010, there were not really policies, and, you know, obviously through my own coming-out process, which sparked some policies to be made, challenging the International Olympic Committee, getting that policy changed. Fortunate thing about that one is when the IOC changed their policy, that has just such an incredible trickle-down effect to all of the national governing bodies. And, you know, most organizations look to the Olympics as the gold standard, quote-unquote, right? pun intended, I guess.

But that policy is in question now again. And World Athletics, formerly IAAF, changed their policy recently about participation of transgender women. At the high school level, I've seen so many more states actually add policies in the last seven years. But unfortunately, last year in the 2019 legislative session, we had about 30, 37 anti-trans bills in 19 different states, and many of them targeted transgender athletes in high school. When we think about all of the benefits that people get from participating in sport, you know, so much about what I love about myself, I learned through playing youth sports.

Oh, gosh, me too. Yeah. I just, yeah, and there's just, like, I'm sure. Yeah. And not just a savior for us at that time period, but, like, I think about, you know, my dedication, my goal setting. how I interact with other people, my ability to be a good teammate, to be a good leader, to be a good communicator. All of those came from my participation in sports. Maybe I would have learned them

some other way, but what I know is that for me, sport was where I found so much of those positive values and lessons that I got. And I think all people should have access to that. When we think about specifically when we're talking about youth sports, you know, what is the goal? It's to create better people. It's to provide young people opportunities to move their bodies, to have enriching experiences, to connect to their peers. And we also know, you know, the positive physical, mental, social and psychological benefits that go along with playing sport, better outcomes in school, you know, higher graduation rates, better grades, better organizational skills, so many different things that are affiliated with being active and being in sports. So, you know, I think

if we just think about how can we, instead of thinking about how we can exclude a certain group of people, how can we think about including all people? I want to get into sports and just human physiology. And Chris, you've had some crazy health issues that I read about kind of toward the back end of your college career. I guess I just, I'm so curious, number one, if you can just describe for our listeners kind of what happened to you and how this has kind of impacted you as an individual and an athlete and just your general lens with which you look at your, you know, think about your body and your behaviors and, you know, how you prepare for races, et cetera.

Yeah. So in my last year of college, so I should back up, I did not choose to participate in college sports. I really wanted to play college basketball when it came time to do that. I just, you know, in hindsight, could say I didn't feel comfortable. being on a women's team, having a coach say, hey, ladies, let's go. I didn't know that at the time, but I backed away from that and just did everything that was co-ed, that didn't require me to use a locker room, but I could just kind of blend in with the other athletes on the team. And so I had just this really incredible, you know, experience of playing everything for fun. And it was great,

but, you know, you need to talk about Wildcat Willie. Yeah. Okay, so I did get my, I did get my NCAA division of letter. Yep, in cheerleading, which is a hilarious joke for anybody who's met me. And it was because I was the college mascot. And so that is a very, yeah, it is a very athletic position. I will assure you, actually. Oh, yes. I did no doubt about that. Yeah, there's a lot of sweating that happens in there for sure. So I was the college mascot for a year and a half, and that was my like really close athletic experience. But in my, in my, in my, in my real life when I was not behind the mask, I was, you know, I was doing all of these other things. And I was also, you know, towards the end of my college career was not taking very good care of

myself. I was not sleeping very much. And I also probably wasn't eating very well and not doing a lot of self-care. And so, you know, for reasons that I still don't fully understand in my last year of school, I had two mini strokes. And after that, I had a really hard time was plagued by migraine headaches and, you know, just a lot of, you know, confusion of not really knowing what's going on, trying to struggle my way through school. And also, you know, maybe a sense of not really caring that that was happening, to be honest, because I didn't really see a place for me in the world. Like, I just, I didn't, I didn't think that I would reach my 25th birthday. I didn't see myself getting married. I didn't see myself having a relationship. And I certainly didn't see myself, you know, here sharing my story today. There was no future for me. It just every day was just another day. And there was a, you know, sort of probably a sense that I didn't really care like if I died. So there, there, that happened. Were you out to anyone at this point? I didn't even know I was trans at this point. To be totally honest, I, you know, there were, I didn't know I was trans. I was struggling with, uh, with my, identity a little bit, but, you know, it was more just feeling like people weren't seeing me

how I saw myself, but I didn't even know I could be trans, to be honest. Like, the trans people that I had seen in the media in these sort of negative representations on trashy TV shows like Jerry Springer and Moripovich, like those people were not me. So there are nothing about that when I saw a trans person on these shows. I didn't go, oh yeah, that like really resonates with me. That really is my experience. It didn't even cross my radar. And so I was just having a really tough time, not being able to express why. And so after I had these two mini strokes, I really kind of got reset to not being able to run a mile, not really, really struggling to make a recovery.

And I saw a Chicago Marathon banner, and that was really what I said, I'm going to do that. My friends were like, okay, you can't run a mile. So good luck with that. And that was really the start of this athletic journey post college. And part of it was reconnecting with myself and my body because I just loved sports when I was a kid. And I thought, okay, like that was one place where I really felt like myself, where I really felt a lot of joy. And this is what I need right now. Like I need to be myself. I need joy. And so I started to run for fitness, for trying to reconnect. I started to lift weights. And I think subconsciously I was doing

it because I wanted to sort of manipulate my body before transition of being like, well, if I build my upper body a little bit, if I slimmed down, maybe people will call me he more than they'll call me she. And so like in hindsight, again, I was doing all of these things. You know, I built my way up from a 5K, 10K, half marathon, marathon, ultramarathon, and then thought what's the next challenge? And I think that, that, you know, that experience of like flatlining in an ER really gives me a perspective of being like, wow, like bodies are incredible. How far can I push mine? You know, what am I capable? If I can, if I can bounce back from that, what am I capable of? And so that was really, you know, after the, I didn't want to run longer

than 36 miles. I was good there. So I bought a bike, taught myself how to swim, signed up for my first triathlon, and then started on this journey of like sprint, Olympic, half Iron Man, Iron Man triathlon, on and really just, you know, that constant push of being like, you know, what am I capable of? And as I transition, now what am I capable of? Because there's actually no expectations. There's no benchmarks. There's no comparison. So what can I do?

First, first, first. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it blows my mind that you literally have no experience, had no experience running, really. I mean, other than, you know, sports, obviously, you're running. but actual running and cycling. So this literally just started at this point in your career. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty cool to think about that this is like we are capable of so much more than we believe and that we live in ourselves. And, you know, certainly I'm not the, I'm definitely not the fastest athlete in the country by any means.

I was second fastest in my group internationally for Americans, which was great. But, you know, I have still been a men's all-American, a two-time national champion and have really just found my space to participate in the way that really feels good to me. And to me, what feels good is doing the best that I can on the day. You can talk to some high-achieving athletes who are just so dedicated and driven to excellence, to performance, to winning that that's all I think about, right? And I know for myself, I love winning. I love doing well. I love setting PRs for myself, but part of what I know about myself as an athlete is that I also am doing this to give myself a platform to talk about trans inclusion in sport and

in the world. And so my participation in sport is really twofold. And I definitely feel that sense of drive for performance myself and for my community. You had mentioned like just the weight of doing this, of taking on the activist role. I really do feel like every time that I win, every time that I have a first, it's a, it's a win for the trans people. It's a win for the LGBTQ plus community when I, you know, go to the Olympic trials. How would you describe? So you go from this state where you're really, really sick. You know, how did you start to tackle the behavior change that was required to really

get yourself back on track? You know, it's not like you just, after having two strokes, you jump out of bed and all of a sudden you're running marathons. I mean, to actually, change your behaviors in a way that that enables you to have this, you know, to run a marathon and to have the athletic career that you've had. Like just, I'd love to hear just what that journey, what that process was like for you to kind of get on track. I think part of it was just the recognition of I cannot continue to live my life like this. And part of that was wrapped up in my identity, you know, and not feeling like I could exist anymore with people calling me she and seeing me as a woman.

And I never really identified as a woman, but that was the way I was perceived in the world. Part of it was the recognition of just bad health choices of saying, like, I really am not sleeping much. I had a lot of trouble with sleep in college. And then, you know, after my stroke, I had a really hard time with painkillers and, you know, being in a place where I, it wasn't consistent use. but it was definitely abuse when I was taking them and having just a great sense and awareness of like I didn't drink all through high school into college that was never part of

my experience. I had alcoholism in my family and have just always been really, really acutely aware of my own relationship to substances. And I was really, really troubled by the way that I was using pain killers when I did have them. And I can recognize that part of that was just like, I wasn't numbing my pain. I was numbing my pain, right? Like, I was numbing like my life pain. And, you know, I think that one good thing about me is that I, when I set my mind to something, that is what I'm going to do. And so, you know, there was no, no rehab, no program or anything. It was like, I'm not doing this anymore. And just the commitment to keep my promise to myself of, you know, I have to stop this because I don't think I'm going to be able to exist

much longer in the way that I'm going. And that's really been, you know, in terms of those health changes like that. And then athletically, what it really was was wanting to prove people wrong. The very first article that came out about me in the New York Times was amazing. It highlighted me as competing as a man in the New York City Triathlon after competing as a woman two years before. And I was just so pumped. It was a full page. New York Times, you know, like sports section, awesome photo. I was so pumped. And the article really painted me as a middle of the back guy. And I was like, and I remain deeply offended. And I, and really, that is, that is every single day. I woke up and thought about that. And I thought, I am not going to be outworked.

Like, there are things outside of my control. I cannot control who shows up to a race. I cannot control. their gifts that they have athletically, what I can do is be the best, most prepared version of myself. And so that is really what drove me, you know, to try to be my best self showing up at my races. Okay. So transitioning a little bit to whoop. I'm so curious, you know, just being, obviously, an extraordinary athlete, like, competing at the highest level. How do you use your data? You know, what's your kind of process and, like, how does that inform your goals and how you think about your training and kind of your volume and your intensity. Yeah, I just would love to hear just your general thoughts on kind of how you apply some of this data to kind of drive your outcomes.

Yeah, oh my gosh, the best part of this has just been my sleep, you know, and really trying to hit sleep numbers. It's like a challenge to myself of trying to get accurate or trying to get improved recovery. So this morning, we're recording this on a Thursday and Thursday mornings. I get up at four in the morning to go coach and I have a very long day on Thursdays and I consistently mess up on Wednesday nights and just go to bed too late. And so every, every single week just consistently have, you know, I'm in the red on Thursdays and then sometimes on Fridays and seeing how my body recovers. I think, you know, trying to have that benchmark for sleep has been the best part of the whoop for me of figuring out, you know, what I actually need. I'm a

astounded. Like, it says that I need 10 hours, 10 hours and four minutes of sleep. And, you know, just think about how important sleep is in, in the whole process and how as athletes were just so conditioned, I guess, at least I was as a young person, to say, like, more workout is better, right? And we know that's not true, but, you know, like, as an endurance athlete, I go, okay, well, I can run longer. I can do another strength session. I could do some mobility work. I could add another bike session, whatever. And, you know, then we, accumulate on all this fatigue without the appropriate amount of rest and recovery. And this has just been so instrumental in actually having a visual for that to say, okay, like, yeah, okay, like, you need to get your butt to bed. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So what is like your average strain on, I guess if you think about like you're weak, do you use whoop to kind of drive some of your decisions around volume intensity or do you just

kind of like, hey, I have this plan. I'm going to do it regardless of my capacity that day. Like, how flexible, I guess, are you in your training? Yeah, I'm very flexible, especially right now. So in January 2020, I was in the Olympic trials for racewalking. Yeah, okay. We didn't even talk about that. Another first.

And we're going to racewalk, which is frankly, racewalk. Like, walking fast is hard. So hard. It was so much. Right. What is, okay, let's talk about race walking strain real quick. It's so hard. Like, that's the beginning of it.

It's just, it's so hard. It's so much harder than running for me as somebody who, like, I could just space out on a run and just go knock out miles. Like, it's my therapy, you know. And there's just so much that I have to think about in terms of technique. And also, it's just a movement that my body is just not used to. So, yeah, I've found it to be an incredible challenge, especially as an adult beginner to say, like, when was the last time you were a true beginner at some. something, right, and that you learn and you showed up at a race and you were the least experienced person there. And, you know, it's been a really exciting process in the last year for me because

I started it last summer. And you got to the Olympic trials. And I got to the Olympic trials. I mean, it was awesome. I'm like, how's that even possible? Yeah, it was great. Yeah, I mean, I just, if there's a will, there's a way and I figured out how to get there. So, you know, I definitely, like, give so much respect to the athletes who have been doing this their whole life. And, you know, I got there. I got there. But I definitely, it wasn't pretty. So, so I've been, I tore my meniscus and got that diagnosis around the time of the Olympic trials. And so I pulled out of the Olympic trials with that injury. And, you know, then COVID hit. And I really had this, it was kind of such a blessing to have this time with no races, with no,

You know, like deadline to say, I have to be better by world championship. I have to be better so I can go to Switzerland and like the, you know, these sort of things. So I've just had all of this time to just rehab and recover and start my journey back on fitness. My average strain is 20.2. Isn't that wild? That's gosh. I mean, that's why you need to spend 10 hours in bed. I mean, that's exactly. Same cardiovascular load, Chris. 20.6, 19. 1, 20.5, 19.8. So, yeah, like, I have very heavy days. Wow. I mean, coaching is no joke. I mean, I coached for years. And, yeah, I mean, I always had huge kind of heart rate, you know, low data on those days. You know, it's, and then you top it off with obviously working out and, you know, just all the other life things. Yeah, you can get your strain up there pretty quick. It's really interesting, though, for, you know, as an athlete who, who, who think about sessions being, you know, that hour and a half at the track, right? Or that hour on the

bike. Yeah. I think what this is really, what a blessing, this is really exposed to me is that stress is stress. This is actually a tool where I can say, wow, like, I really didn't work out today and still my stress level is so high. My body is equating this to, you know, a track session. Do you use the journal? I do every day, yes. Nice. And what do you, so you track CBD? I don't know if we were recording when we were talking about that. But Chris, yeah, for the listeners, yeah, kind of talk about CBD because I thought that was really interesting. I always am raving and talking about CBD on all the podcasts. So tell us your experience. Yeah, I love it. And I, you know, I've been taking it for a while. I take it consistently. And there were definitely times when, you know, other things like I didn't have it or I didn't take it. And I logged it. And what I've seen is that, On the days that I take CBD, I have on average one hour and 14 more minutes of sleep than if I don't. And that, like, you know, is probably the most mind-blowing statistic of everything that I've learned about myself and my training and my recovery through using WOOP. The monthly reports are just awesome to look at and do the comparison of, like, how my training has gone that month, how I felt.

Are there any differences? Yeah, the monthly performance assessment is like, it's quite magical. You know, as you start to accumulate enough data, you know, we can start to just draw these like nice little associations. And I always think about it as, you know, you've got certain behaviors that are like your anchors. You know, if you do this one behavior, it kind of sets you off in a good path to do a whole host of other behaviors. But the data has been so helpful to kind of help me identify what are those core. behaviors like behavioral anchors that are going to really position me to kind of put myself in in the best possible, you know, state to be able to adapt and activate in a way that's,

that's really optimal. I'm actually upset when my battery dies. Like I had a trip recently and I didn't bring my charger and I was like, oh, no, three days of data and I was on the road and I'd like really wanted to see. Yeah, like what's happening when you're traveling. Yeah, traveling has like such a enormous impact. When you're crossing time zones, it's even worse. Okay, so I have a couple other just, well, not random questions, but what do you wish everyone

knew about being trans and an athlete? Yeah, but there's not just one way to be a trans person. Just as there's not just one way to be a man, there's not just one way to be a woman, there's not just one way to identify as a trans person. And in sport, that really makes a difference because every person's process is so individual. It's so personal and that I am a representation of our community, but I'm not a representation of every trans man, of every trans athlete that I'm just a case study of one at the end of the day, but that trans people are possible in sport. If you had to give one book to someone as a gift, what would you give to them? The champion's mind. If I'm going a sports direction, I actually had three books immediately popped into my mind.

Okay, share, share. Okay, so the champion's mind is the book that I listen to. I've read it, but I also listen to the audio version before every single race that I do now, since I've actually gotten the book. I play this book just on repeat on my way to the race. You know, if I'm driving to the state that the race is in or on a plane, it is just, to me, it's just so grounding and such a good reminder. So, and I recommend it to all of my athletes.

I just love that book. I love it. The second is my favorite book from when I was a kid, which is the autobiography of Malcolm X. I read it when I was 10 years old, like way above my reading level. And I absolutely love that book. And then The Alchemist is another one of my absolute favorites

of just possibility and self-confidence in the hero's journey. That's great. I definitely have never read The Champions Mind. Oh, put it on your list. I'm all over that. I can't wait. So Tim Ferriss always asked this question and I'm like, oh, it's such a great question. So if you could put kind of one thing on a billboard that you know millions of folks would see, what would it be? Right now it would be trans girls are girls. Just, you know, just in terms of our advocacy piece here, I think that's such a, you know,

such an important thing for people to know in terms of this moment. Actually, probably what it would be is every day you have a shot at making history. I have had a poster of this since I was 14 years old. I put it on my wall and it went to college with me. It has gone to every home with me and it is framed right next to my bike right here, right underneath my All-American plaque, that every day you have a shot at making history. It's just the possibility that, like, you can do anything and, and you could, you could change the course of the entire world on any given day. I mean, you're the embodiment of that, right?

You're right. I mean, to your earlier point, like, there's, like, it's just, like, what our body can do. And when we don't put limitations on ourselves and when others don't put limitations on us, it's truly mind-blowing. What I tell every athlete that I meet, every person, you know, that I'm talking to, that I'm trying to inspire. And what I think would be a really great message for people is, you know, to your point about what the human body can do, never limit your own greatness to make other people feel more comfortable. We all just need that message, that reminder, because so many people and, you know, people in the queer community, you know, gay athletes, and I think just all women have been taught to make themselves smaller to make other people feel more comfortable. and, you know, really, like, just if we all just, you know, lived our lives to the, to the potential of our own greatness, what an incredible gift that would be to other people.

I can't thank you enough, Chris, for just your generosity and just your willingness to share and educate. This is really just a wonderful, for me, just a wonderful discussion. So thank you. Thank you. Where is the best place for folks to find you? So I live on Instagram at the Christmas. Mosier and also on Twitter at the Chris Mosier.

Well, the world's lucky to have you, Chris. Thank you so much for everything that you are doing and have done. Thank you. This is awesome. Thanks to Chris for coming on the WOOP podcast. Thank you all for listening. A reminder, you can use the code Will Ahmed, W-I-L-L-A-H-M-E-D to get 15% off a W-W-M-M-R-M-Ship. Also, you can check us out on social at W-W-E-A-W-A-W-A-W-A-W-A. Stay healthy, folks. stay in the green.