WHOOP Podcast - Data That Drives Longevity: How to Stay in the Game Longer with Bethanie Mattek-Sands

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

On this week’s episode WHOOP Global Head of Human Performance, Principal Scientist Kristen Holmes is joined by tennis star Bethanie Mattek-Sands. The 9-time Grand Slam champion, commonly known as America’s Rock Star of Tennis, Bethanie has brought a charismatic and eccentric energy to the sport, which has propelled her to 31 titles throughout her career. Kristen and Bethanie discuss how Bethanie started tennis at a young age (2:47), leaning into her true identity on and off the court (7:58), prioritizing recovery (13:48), the biggest impacts and tools for Bethanie’s health (20:45), breathwork (35:29), how Bethanie resets away from tennis (38:42), using data to optimize performance (42:17), the state of women’s sports (51:06), and what’s next for Bethanie (54:25).Resources:Bethanie’s InstagramThe Art of Learning by Josh WaitzkinFollow WHOOPwww.whoop.comTrial WHOOP for FreeInstagramXFacebookLinkedInFollow Will AhmedInstagramXLinkedInFollow Kristen HolmesInstagramLinkedInSupport the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

What's up, folks? Welcome back to the Whoop podcast. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, founder, and CEO of Whoop. We're on a mission to unlock human performance. If you're thinking about joining Whoop, you can visit our website, Woop.com, sign up for a free 30-day trial and decide whether you want to become a WOOP member. That's a pretty good deal. Okay, on this week's episode, Woop, Global Head of Human Performance, Principal Scientists, The Fearless, Kristen Holmes, is joined. By tennis star, Bethany Maddox Sands, the nine-time Grand Slam champion is here today to talk about her commitment to health and wellness and recovery and how that gave her a resurgence late in her career. She's commonly known as America's rock star of tennis and she has brought a charismatic and eccentric energy to the court, which has propelled her to 31 titles throughout her career. Kristen and Bethany discuss starting tennis at a young age. She was really thrust into adulthood turning pro at just 14 years old, leaning into her charismatic personality, how Bethany monitors her health and favorite recovery modalities. She's used to test what works best for her.

Her love for the infrared sauna, resetting and taking time away from tennis, her passion for data and how it has prolonged her career, and her view on the growing state of women's sports. If you have a question to see answered on the podcast, email is podcast.com. Call us 508 443-495-2. Without further ado, here is Kristen Holmes and Bethany Attic Sands. Bethany, it's so wonderful to have you here. Nice to see you, too. We're rocking our glasses here. I feel like this fits the mood right now.

It's 9 p.m. in Rome right now. So this is like my wind down with you, but I'm excited to dive in some details. I know. We'll get your mind right. right before you go to bed, we'll do a little breathwork at the end to wind down from the conversation. Bethany, it's been so fun learning about you. I think the least interesting thing about you actually is your tennis. You have just this incredibly vibrant, amazing personality, and you're just impacting the world in so many ways. But let's start, I mean, your tennis career has been legendary in doubles and mixed doubles. you have just won, you know, titles and Olympic medals and most recently two titles,

even just this year, Miami and Abu Dhabi. And so you're just, you're off to a banger start in, in 2024. Maybe let's start. Let's talk about young Bethany. And how, how has she evolved? Wow. That's actually a great question because, you know, I was kind of reminiscing how long I've been pro. This is going to be my 25th year. playing tennis as a professional. I turned pro when I was 14, but I started playing tennis when I was five. My dad got me interested in tennis. And I will say I played a lot of different sports when I was young. And I feel like that's maybe one of the reasons that I'm still around right now. I felt like I was well-rounded as an athlete. I didn't get that singular focus too early. I've seen a lot

of players come and go. And if we're talking about young Bethany and looking at all the junior that I played with, you just start to see how small of a percentage it is that makes it to that elite status in athletics. And it's not nothing to say that, you know, pump myself up or anything. You know, I think a lot of parents and kids go into sports with the idea that they're going to play professional. And it's a great goal, but I think there's so many other things that you can get out of sports and continuing to play sports, even if you don't go pro. I think that's my main message. You know,

one of the things that's inspired me to sort of talk about it in that way is 70% of girls give up sports by the age of 14. And if I'm thinking at 14 is when I'm turning pro, and that's when so many players, so many women, girls are giving up on sports. And, you know, I think about everything that I've learned and sort of the woman I've become. I grew up in and around the sport of tennis.

I mean, when I turned pro at 14, I was sort of thrust into this adult world. and it was uncomfortable. I, you know, was already different in the way I grew up. I missed some of my schooling because I went to an academy and I played tournaments and I traveled. I was homeschooled for a little bit. And so, you know, already that, you know, my social life was very different from your average teenager. And then turning pro that young, you sort of thrust in this adult world.

And I was, you know, unsure of myself a little bit. And I feel like the colorful sort of outgoing person you see now, it was very different when I was younger. It took me a while to come out of my shell and to sort of, you know, gain this confidence within myself. And that took years, I would say. The biggest shift sort of going from 14-year-old Bethany until now is really releasing my identity with my wins and losses. I would think so highly of myself when I won. I'd be rewarded. I'd be praised. I'd be praised. Everyone would have love me. I'd want to hang out with people and then I would lose and I would isolate and I would, you know, think, be pretty negative towards myself. And I think that was one of my biggest

sort of growing pains that I went through from the very beginning to who I am now. It's so hard for your identity and your self-worth not to be attached to your wins and losses. And I think that's just like one of the, I think, hardest things for athletes to learn is that they're just totally separate. They're not related. In some ways, I wish there was a bit more education, you know, to kind of help young athletes really unpack that, you know, in language that they can understand. And because you can really spiral, you know, in those moments where you just feel like you could have done better, should have done better. and to actually view yourself as less than because of that, you know, is obviously pretty unproductive.

It takes a while to learn that. I mean, really because ultimately you think, in a warped way, you think you're helping push yourself to improve by thinking those things of yourself, right? There's like this odd dichotomy that that's what it takes to be successful or that's what it takes to get to the next level or to beat your opponents. And, you know, I feel like that's maybe part of my message as a 39-year-old athlete is that I've gotten to kind of go through the whole cycle and still have this awesome opportunity to play professional tennis now with a pretty different mindset. And that's, for me, it's something that, you know, you had to walk through the

fire to figure that out. And you had to sort of crash and burn a little bit and, you know, feel the highs of those winds and how great that felt with everyone around you and feel the lows when you were out and you're injured or you're losing and to feel that difference and to really start separating how you feel as a person. So it's really, I mean, you're spot on with what you're saying. You mentioned confidence. You know, you seem, again, this is me just observing, but, you know, this is extraordinarily confident individual, optimistic, charismatic, you know, you said that you didn't necessarily have that as a younger athlete. And there's, do you remember kind of this inflection point where you were like,

you know, what, I'm going to lean into who I am. I'm going to lean into, you know, this personality that is just inside me. Like, what was that moment? I think I had a couple, but I'll give you one of the stories. I remember one of the years that I was going down to Australia. When I was younger, I had signed a contract with Nike. And then after that, I had been with Adidas. and I had all this new Adidas gear from the off season.

I brought it to the trip to Australia, which is January. It's the beginning of our season. And I got an email saying that I had been cut from the team. And in my mind, I was really upset, but I was like, I don't want to wear all this Adidas stuff because I just got cut from the team. And so that's kind of a little bit at the beginning when you started seeing some of my funky fashion come out because I went shopping. At the time, I mean, this is years ago. There wasn't like the cool a leisure looos, and I've led it in all these things, Lorna Jains and all these, you know, cool brands that you could get cool.

So I was shopping at normal stores, seeing if I could play in some of these, like, tank tops and skirts and shirt options and sort of put together some cool outfits and colorful outfits. And for me, sort of showing that fashion side and being unique in that way was kind of a catalyst for me coming out of my shell. It was a talking point. It was something I was interested off the court anyways. But it was also a conversation starter. Generally, when I wore something sort of funky or noteworthy, someone would ask me about it. And it sort of helped me sort of start conversations and talk about it. And that's, I remember that sort of being a little bit of a catalyst to the more colorful tattoo person you see now. But it really happened over years. I mean,

I met my husband in my early 20s. I didn't have any tattoos before that. So that was like once I met him, I would say I gained even a little bit more confidence with my womanhood and with that relationship, you know, because before that, it was hard. You know, I was on the road by myself a lot. And you can talk to a lot of athletes, but when you're sort of in that mode, you don't have a lot of time to go on dates and you're not home for a lot of weeks. So it's like, hey, I got a couple weeks in November if you want to hook up.

And it gets challenging. So I feel like, you know, over the years, it's definitely come out. And, you know, I'm really grateful for, you know, the people that I've had around me that have encouraged that. Like, they've really encouraged me to sort of lean into my personality quirks and sort of my creativity. And because if you watch me play on the court, that's how I play. I'm not, you know, a really cookie cutter tennis player. And I remember I went to Chris Everett's tennis academy when I was young. And I remember her, even to this day, she was like, why didn't you just want to go cross court?

And I was like, that was boring for me. That's not how I wanted to play play. I don't want to drop shot. I wanted to go down the line. I wanted to, you know, be flashy and athletic. And so it just, you know, I feel like staying true to all of that. When I really could stay true to that within myself, that's when I really started coming into my game. coming into myself as a tennis player, coming into myself as a woman.

And that was, but that was years. I mean, I'll be honest. You know, I'm speaking out as a veteran right now at 39, and it really took some time. I think that's like a great lesson for coaches listening, you know, that I think we try to fit athletes, or maybe this is a message for athletes to find coaches that, like, work with your quirks, Right. And work with, you know, I think about like if you're playing chess, for example, like, yeah, there's chess players who really like to be aggressive. There's other chess players who like to be more conservative and slower pace. And, you know, there's a personality, I think, attached to how you play the game, you know. And I think that enabling and allowing for building an infrastructure that allows that individuality is so important. You know, you'll get so much more from an athlete if they're allowed to express themselves, you know. And 100%. And I love that. You found that. And speaking of chess, actually, you just kind of brought up something.

Have you read the book, The Art of Learning by Josh Weiskin? As you were talking, that is exactly what I was thinking in my brain. It was just like, gosh, this sounds exactly like how kind of Josh unpacked his whole kind of learning journey and his development as a chess player. And yeah, it's a beautiful book. Honestly, years ago that I picked up that book. and that was probably one of my most re-read sort of highlighted books that I had. And that was probably a good, like, I don't know, maybe eight years ago.

And I actually reached out to Josh, too. I had a couple back and forth emails because I had a few other personal questions. But I think really to throw out a book at the beginning of our podcast here, that's actually one of my favorites still to this day. So that's really funny. I would put that in my top 10 as well. I remember reading that when it first came out. And I think he was on the Tim Ferriss podcast maybe.

So I really got into this Josh Whiteskin kind of like rabbit hole for a good, a good period of time. He's really fascinating. And I think his journey is so interesting and there's a lot to learn from it. I'm excited to talk about recovery. Obviously, one of the reasons why we gravitated to you is just, you know, how vigilant you are about your just in how you prepare and how you think about your body and this really, and your mind. this really holistic manner. It's just so inspiring. How did you gain this perspective around recovery? Like, did it come from injury? Did it come from, you know, what was that kind of catalyst that being like, all right, this is actually the thing? You know, I've done a lot of deep

thinking about that. And I'll tell you this. It's been sort of in my, part of my recent emotional journey is really going back to how my parents raised me. And I'm saying this with a grain of salt because I went through a phase where I didn't really get along with my dad. My dad was my coach when I was younger and we really butted heads and I went through a whole cycle of, you know, not even talking to him for a long time and trying to find my own way and be rebellious and independent and, you know, proving to him, proven to myself, proving to coaches and, but if I'm honest, my dad really instilled a lot of the habits that I, sort of have propelled even further. I remember as a kid, my dad was opting to send me to a

naturopathic doctor. He was opting to send me. I was getting muscle tested. I was getting massages. I was doing acupuncture. And this is like a 12, 13 year old, 14 year old. And I remember even before that as a kid, I would have my exercise routines. And we would have pushups, situps, bicep curls. And we'd have our weekly list. And we'd put stars. And at the end of the week, if we did all of our exercises, you know, we would go to Toys R Us and pick something out. And so I really have to give my dad and mom like a lot of credit for sort of instilling some of those habits that I feel like I've definitely expanded on, you know, from that point. But, you know, I think beyond that, injuries definitely humble you and make you rethink things.

You know, I had a really big injury. The knee injury is sort of what most people. you know, if you're YouTube, that will come up. And that was something that you're going from the top of the world to not being able to get out of bed. And it forces you to change your thought process. You go from being this athlete thinking that a certain amount of things worked, this certain routine worked, to having to learn how to walk again, to read, you have to create a new normal. My knee, if I'm honest, has never felt the same. It's never felt the same as it did pre-injury, but does it feel really strong right now? It does. But I had to emotionally reprogram.

I had to mentally reprogram. Actually, physically, that was probably the easiest process to go from injured to back up and running on the court. It's more of that trust in the body. And so I've, you know what i've sort of challenged myself to do is to really always question if what i'm doing right now is what's going to be the best option going forward that's what i see a lot of athletes that get stuck or aren't coming back from injury is they're kind of hanging on to what worked in the past and you really have to be willing to sort of explore and get to know yourself like it's one thing also to have a coach or a doctor say this is the best thing for you this is how you got to do it. But I've really taken it upon myself to learn how I feel, to listen, how I

feel, and to explore a lot of different things. Has everything worked? No, I've tried some things for a month, put it out to the side, say, hey, I didn't get the benefits that I wanted. But some other things have surprised me, and I've held on to them for years. So, you know, I think going into this with this mentality of adaptability and curiosity is sort of what has led me to all the recovery modalities that I'm using now. And we could talk in five years and I'm sure it will change. We're going to have new insights. We're going to have new data. We're going to have new studies coming out. And for me, that's really exciting, right? Like, that's one of the reasons why I'm still playing professional tennis too is I feel like I can still get better. I still feel

like there's percentage gaps that I can improve, and that's what makes it exciting. There's never, you know, in the beginning, you always think like maybe there's this pie in the sky, and once I get there, I'm going to be done. And, you know, the further I've gotten in my career, the more I've opened my training and performance and recovery, not just to my tennis, but to lifestyle, to health. I want to be in my 70s and 80s and active. And once I sort of made that transformation mentally and emotionally, of course, I'm still getting performance benefits on the court, but it's really opened my eyes to a lot of different options out there. And again, it's really something I like to share what I do, but I'm not here to say, you need to follow

this protocol exactly, and these are the results you're going to get. I want people to play around with it and to get to know themselves. I mean, that's what, and again, it's on a holistic level. It's mentally, emotionally, and physically, they're all tied together. It even, even on my who data. I can I can tell you when I'm having emotionally tough days, it's getting, I'm getting stress-centered, right? So I think that's also another thing I've learned going this far into my career is I was so focused on what physically I could do to either recover, get stronger, get faster, win. And now I'm really seeing the emotional and the mental side of things and how that affects my performance and how it actually affects your data. Yeah. I mean, I'm a psychophysiologist, right?

So that's what I do is I, you know, but the reason why I became a psychophysiologist, I first started studying psychology, and then I was like, wow, you know, you can only talk yourself into a better future before you're actually your biology and your physiology take over. So there's got to be this cross talk, right? And if we're only thinking about one or the other as an athlete, we're just, we're obviously missing the other, you know, the other half. And so, you know, I appreciate, you know, the fact that you're kind of coming at this

from like this, you know, lens of curiosity and self-experimentation. And I could not agree more that, you know, that, that I think really is the path. You know, people were, and I think what whoop has really elevated in terms of conversation is that, you know, what is happening within is not necessarily what's happening between, right? Like, you know, the effects that are happening inside me are not going to be replicated to the person to my left or right. You know, we have unique physiology, unique ways, patterns of thinking. unique demands on our time, you know, all of that is so individual. And I think Woop gives us this opportunity to really understand how we are responding and adapting to all of life's loads, right?

Yep. So saying that, so curious, you know, what are your non-negotiables? You know, what are the things that you just, you can't live without day to day. Like this is like, hey, I know that this directly impacts my ability to show up as the best version of them. myself. All right. So I'm going to give some like some truth bombs here, I guess, for myself. So number one, alcohol. Alcohol. And I've, I've tested it where it's, you know, we talk about, you know, tequila, red wine in the day. And like, I can. Two ounces versus four ounces. Six p.m. versus four I have one step in the afternoon with protein. Like, talk to me.

I've gone every week's day. 24 ounces of water for every four ounces of it. And it's just one of those stats that will always bump me down, like at the end of the day. So if it's going to be an evening where I want to enjoy some wine, I want to enjoy a margarita, I make sure it's always ahead of days. off. Like I just know what I'm going to get the next day. I know it's going to take me two to three days recovery. I think that's sometimes what people don't realize too is it's not just the next day. Like it sometimes will take me a couple days to get back into the green. And at some point, you know, are we emotionally going to be like, you know what? I just want to have a good

time and do it. Yes, 100%. I'm here for the balance. And that's why I'll time up when I have those nights out with friends and everything but for me alcohol and getting to bed late so I aim to be in bed before 10 which is why this podcast we're like right on the edge no I know so on the edge no I'll be good I'll be good I can sleep in I'm not playing tomorrow so I can sleep in a little bit but what I found is yeah even if I think I'm getting away getting my eight hours from 10 to you know six seven versus 12 to eight I'll always get better recovery the earlier I get to bed and the earlier I wake up. So even when I'm traveling, if I get to bed too late, I'll wake up early so that I'm tired

that next day or the next evening. So I go to bed earlier rather than sleeping in. The data supports that at population levels. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So good. For me, I played around with intermittent fasting.

This is another big factor for me that will get me. into, I'll tell you, that my highest HRVs have been when I've done long fasts from 24 hours to 36. I've even done a couple 72 hour fasts. And that's when I get into the 136, 150 HRV. And it's not just about that number either. Like, it's great to get a high number like that and you're just showing it off. But I notice my systemic inflammation goes down. I can feel the difference. And for me, if I'm thinking of one common denominator that I want to, address throughout my career it's been inflammation whether it's been with my injuries whether it's just been not being able to move the next day whether it's i feel my joints if i can manage that i feel

pretty athletic and i can do a lot so that's why the recovery is so important and for me food and nutrition is a big one there so eating late at in the evening for me i don't like today i i had my last meal at 3 p.m that's when i'm going to feel my best 100%. i've and i've tested it out, even if I had 200 calories, you know, almonds, protein, carbs. You know, it's when I eat too close to bedtime, I don't drop into my REM sleep. I don't get enough deep sleep. Generally, my temperature, my skin temperature will go up because I'm still digesting through that early part of the night. So if I can go to bed on as empty as a stomach as I can, I will sleep my best. Let's unpack that a little bit. Okay. So you're feeding windows

about six hours. Your eating window, sorry, it's about six, six, seven hours. So I'll go anywhere from probably eight to, yeah, six to eight, because I'll wake up early. So my big thing, what I've been doing now is I eat pretty much when I wake up, like within 30 minutes of waking up. Like this morning, I had veal and eggs for my breakfast. And as I started out with some proteins, some fats, and that's helped me, because I know a lot of people intermittent fast with the later part of the day. And I was doing that for a little bit, and I'm not shooting it down. I just know that for me personally, I felt better when I've shifted my bigger meals earlier in the day. You're more insulin sensitive earlier in the day.

You become more insulin resistant as the day goes on. We are not meant to digest food after the sun goes down. That's just the reality of the situation. So the fact that when I hear the internet talking about fasting, I get a little annoyed because I think where you just put a one-size-fits-all on this notion of fasting. You're not restricting calories. You are just shifting your feeding window to earlier in the day when, frankly, that is when we're most active and when we need the energy. So, like, I think that women, we over-index, we hear, you know, a scientist or influencer, you know, talk about intermittent fasting for women

is bad. No, restricting your feeding window is actually the path for humans, right? Because we're not meant to be eating for 16 hours a day. Like, that is so metabolically, like costly to our system and leads to things like inflammation and we again like we're you know all sorts of downstream effects you know it impacts sleep but I think to your point like it's it's going to be individual right so not everyone is going to respond the same and this is what works for you and you've experimented you this is your this is what works for you and I and I think that's that's kind of the opportunity with a lot of these data is that you've been able to very much from a data driven lens and and how you feel and how you perform

you've been able to kind of see these results. Yeah, and actually going along with the insulin resistance, so I was wearing a CGM for a little, a glucose monitor. And one of, I mean, there's a lot of things that I found really interesting about that, but in line with what you're saying was I could eat the same exact food in the morning and I would have a different response when I ate the same exact thing in the afternoon. I would have a higher spike, same calories, same amount, same food. So for me, again, that's another one of my tinkery, and I wanted to really dive into my nutrition

and sort of compare what even my, what else I noticed was interesting to bring the whoop data into this is I noticed when I was spiking on my insulin, my stress level on my whoop was spiking as well. And I'd be in that high stress zone. And so I started putting two and two together where some of those higher spikes that I was having with some of the foods that I was eating was also contributing to me being in that high stress zone, even when I'm thinking, and I'm not even stressed right now. Like, I feel pretty good. I'm kind of chilling.

I'm relaxed. You're like, oh, I ate. Yeah, I ate something that spiked my blood sugar and kept it up there for a little too long. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. So, all right. So you restrict your feeding window. That's a pretty, like, that's a pretty aggressive feeding window.

But it gives you this really nice, long break where your body can absolutely focus on recovery, which is, which is, I think the whole, to me, the whole benefit of this time restricted eating. We actually just did a study. We're writing up these results and we're going to send them for peer review. So they're preliminary, but it supports what you're saying. You know, we saw basically the folks who engaged in time restricted eating had via sleep consistency. So time restricted eating, viewing morning sunlight, led to greater sleep consistency. And then greater sleep consistency led to

better cardiovascular function and bagel tone. So it was like a really cool. Yeah, it's cool to see all that. No, that's awesome. No, that's awesome. Because that morning, I, that's why I like to get up early. Like, I have a balcony even here that I'll spend time drinking by morning tea or coffee, and I spend my time outside in the sunlight. But I would say along that vein, one of my biggest hacks for traveling and getting used of time zone is long fasting. That's like bar none.

And I've traveled with compression. I've traveled with my own snacks. I have like all my neuro sort of brain wave. therapy like i i travel with it all like i've done it all but one of the biggest i would say pro positive i'm getting used of a new time zone is fasting until i get to a breakfast time zone where i'm going so even if i get somewhere in the evening i'll wait out another 12 hours and make sure that my first meal in a new city is my breakfast meal and it will be a big meal and i'm telling you what like traveling you're relaxing anyway so it's not i don't really feel

calorie deficient sort of try like I'm sitting around I'm laying down I'm watching movies like I don't need that much energy as far as calories go right this isn't and but when I get somewhere I've just felt I've been able to sleep better I it's probably cut my time zone sort of getting you resetting your circadian rhythms by by at least a few days yeah yeah for sure yeah absolutely brilliant I love that someone who studies circadian alignment, is circadian misalignment. I'll tell you that that, like, I think that is the way to go for sure. And I, you know, I think for folks who, you know, are not accustomed to doing those longer fast, it might be challenging. But I think you've just trained your system. And I think traveling going across these time zones, you know, being in,

you know, suboptimal sleeping conditions, all of this is super stressful in the body. And eating, frankly, is a little stressful in the body, you know. And so when you remove that and you allow your your body just to kind of, you know, run it at baseline. You really preserve, I think, a lot of that, you know, energy for recalimatizing when you get to your new time zone. So I love that. That's how I approach travel as well based on everything that I know about circadian rhythms. And that is such great advice, I think, for folks. Do you use like a electrolyte, you know, to kind of buffer? Okay. Because that's the key to making it, I think, is you just You got to have the salt.

Yeah. 100%. I actually travel with salt. So I'll put it on my tongue and I'll just suck it like on the salt for a little bit if I really need it. But I'll mix it in my hot water. I'll have the hot water and lemon sometimes. But I'll mix it in my water. I always have electrolytes with me.

For me personally, I found that the electrolytes that are a little more magnesium heavy have helped me feel better. But I'll say when I first started fasting, I didn't use the salt in the electrolytes. And it made a, if you find yourself or anyone for, finds themselves struggling to sort of stay clear and fight up those hunger pains, it's definitely the electrolytes for sure. That made a massive difference in how long I could I could fast. I love that. Yeah, I think for folks who are like intentionally fasting, like the salt obviously isn't going to break the fast. So they don't trigger or release insulin. And I think that's what like you're trying to minimize during during travel is, is those, you know,

kind of just trying to keep your your insulin levels as stable as possible throughout that that travel experience yeah yeah that's phenomenal okay so anything else that you feel like is really core to kind of your just principles of just optimizing recovery oh i would say so when i'm home one of the best purchases i've made was my infrared sauna that is something that what i am in every single day and i have it on all different kinds of settings but that is something when when I'm home and I can I can feel the difference people can see the difference when I've been in my infrared sauna regularly for a week my husband will even mention something. It's like your skin is good. I know it's like it's so people don't realize

it's just like magic. I know I'm obsessed. It's it's probably one of my one of my favorite investments that I've made but when I so when I'm traveling right now obviously I don't have access to infrared saunas, but I carry a red light with me that I can put on my knees. It's a red light wrap. But I actually travel with a mattress topper. So this is kind of, it's like it's 23 pounds and it's an all organic latex foam mattress topper that I'll put on top of every hotel bed that I go to. And it's the same one that I use at home. So a lot of the beds, especially in Europe, are pretty firm. So whenever I put my mattress topper on top of it, I get a great night's sleep as if I'm at home.

And I remember there were a couple years we got an Airbnb and every, my coach was staying with me. I had a hitting partner, another friend, my husband, everybody woke up. They couldn't even tie their shoes and I'm waking up. I was like, guys, I feel, I feel pretty great. So it's one of the best travel investments. I mean, it's a separate bag. It's its own bag, the bed bag, we call it.

But I have a foam pillow in there, silk pillow case. I have my mattress topper. And that's something that has gone with me on every single thing. trip for the last, I don't know, probably, it's probably been like 10 years now that I've been traveling with it. Do you feel like everyone on tour is dialing in on these variables in the way that you are? Because I mean, this is a massive competitive advantage. I think so. And you know what? I feel like people are eventually, are sort of turning the corner with this. I feel like I kind of, I probably go a little extreme. So I'm usually that outlier that's, you know, I travel with an electric

modality called an art unit that's something that i've been traveling with for 14 years it's something i can do for neurological recovery it's something i can do if i have an injury that i can hook up i've slept with it um and i feel like not everyone does all of that um but again i will be honest not everyone tells you what they're doing while they're doing it i feel like you all end up hearing about athlete's secret stories sort of after they're retired but you know i kind of share all the gadgets that i'm testing, testing out on the road just because as much of an advantage as it is, there's still something to be said about the talent and skill and mental forward to do it takes to win tennis matches. Again, these are all great recovery modalities and they do bump up my fitness levels,

my recovery levels. But to win matches, there's still, there's still a certain skill set that at the end of the day, it's like either you're going to beat me today or I'm going to beat you. And that's where, you know, at the beginning of my career, I dove so much into all the physical things that I could do when really, I mean, I could tell you, like, one of my non-negotiables is always doing breathwork. For me, that's transformed sort of how I thought about recovery, because that that was a game changer for me just in even even in moments where I was injured and I couldn't do a lot of cardio doing breathwork put me in a place where I didn't feel like I was so far out of shape and I feel like all athletes should take advantage of that that's that's a massive advantage knowing that you don't

have to beat up your body and you can make all these sort of gains with recovery and fitness just doing consistent breathwork. So for me, breathworks are non-negotiable. Yeah. I mean, just, I mean, if you look at, I don't, I don't know that it's funny. I was talking to Rachel Vickory, who is kind of a human performance specialist, and she specializes in teaching how people how to breathe properly. It is pretty wild when you look at professional athletes and, you know, probably half of them are not breathing properly, right? So they're leaving so much on the table in terms of untapped physiological potential. I know. I know. I wasn't breathing. properly. Like once I was doing it, I was like, I'm not breathing in long enough.

I'm not fully exhaling. Yeah, I'm not fully exhaling. So I'm there. It's definitely worth, I think, investigating. Because I think if you're, you know, if you're, if you're not breathing properly, you know, it's going to impact your sleep. It's going to impact just your cognitive bandwidth throughout the day, your ability to focus. It impacts, you know, probably every aspect of your life. So it's definitely worth, I think, checking to see if you're breathing properly and if you're not, you know, training it. I have one of these with me, too, actually now they're talking about breathing. It's a little breathwork trainer. So, and I actually love this. Like, it's really helped me sort of build up my breathing. I mean, I do a lot of meditation and I enjoy it, right? And I do it

before matches. I'll do it to relax in the evening. I'll do it to wake up in the morning. The breathwork for me was it was a game changer. What's up, folks, if you are enjoying this podcast or if you care about health, performance, fitness, you may really enjoy getting a whoop. That's right. You can check out whoop at whoop.com. It measures everything around sleep, recovery, strain, and you can now sign up for free for 30 days. So you'll literally get the high performance wearable in the mail for free.

You get to try it for 30 days, see whether you want to be a member. and that is just at whoop.com. Back to the guests. I think all these things that you're doing clearly are adding up. When you look at your career, it's like mind-blowing, like how consistently you've been able to show up tournament after tournament and not just, you know, show up, but actually, you know, win medals and titles. And it's phenomenal.

So, you know, you're doing all these micro things every day, pretty consistent. And I have to believe that they're contributing and, you know, you do all the training. How do you reset? How do you think about your time away from the game? And what does that, what does that involve for you? Yeah, that's actually a great question because I feel like I'm probably one of the players that has put the least amount of hours in on court. And sometimes that's been unintentional because of injuries. I remember there was a phase where I knew my body could only handle an hour and a half of tennis and I had to forego a warmup. And I was like, I'm just going to be a gamer and go out for the match. That's what I'm here for. And, you know,

I think it was years ago, I made a decision not to get super locked into the idea that if I didn't practice, I wouldn't be able to perform. I had to separate from that. I have, I've had too many injuries. I've had too many instances where you miss a flight, you get somewhere late, something happens no practice courts are open your hitting partner doesn't get there and you have to mentally separate okay i didn't get to sort of do the routine i wanted to how do i just show up for the game how do i just show up for my match and how can i win this and that's that's a mental battle right and so i've through my career i feel like i've i've been able to get better and improve at my days off And I have a great team that actually can read me pretty well, right?

And they'll make suggestions on when I should take a full day off. And when I mean a full day off, I mean, I'm not going to the courts. I'm not sitting there watching tennis on TV. I'm going to explore the cities. It was in my early 20s that I really figured out that when I enjoyed myself and enjoyed the cities and felt like a normal human being and connected with friends and family, I performed better. Like straight up, my performance went up.

So I went through a phase where I was just like, I'm going to go to bed early, I'm going to be by myself, I'm going to visualize, I'm going to do it. And that wasn't my time of best performance. And it's not saying that all these things fell off, like because I was having fun, but that balance is so important. That's something that I always tell parents and coaches of young kids

that it's so necessary. It's so not, we talk about separating the wins and the loss from your identity, but having that life balance is just crucial for performance. Even if you want to be selfish and say, I'm doing it for performance. It's really, it's one of the reasons why I'm still playing at 39. If I was burnt out, I would have stopped a long time ago. Like, I have, there's a lot of cool things that I feel like I can do in life, but I'm still really engaged in the process of getting better as a tennis player and exploring the world. Like I have a pretty cool job. Like I'm in Rome right now. Last week I was in Barcelona for a little bit. Like what actually what happened was I lost earlier in Madrid and I had extra time. And old Bethany would have maybe been really upset, sort of sulked for a couple days, gone and practiced in Madrid. But instead we kind of made the group decision to go to another city that we haven't really spent much time in. We went to Barcelona. I got a couple days of practice, a couple days off. So that's when I had my reset meals. I had some wine a little bit

later in the day, knew I had a few days before I came to Rome. And I got back here and my first couple practices were some of the best hits I've had, you know, in the last few weeks. So I've just, I discovered that days off really help me. And that's something that I've been able to sort of easily add into my scheduling. How do you use data? I use it a lot of different ways, right? Like if I'm in the red, what happens is it changes how I go about that. day. Maybe I take an extra nap. Maybe I don't go in the gym for another time. Maybe I get to bed earlier that night. Like for me, I feel like I've always been able to carve out and use that data to constantly elevate. And it's not just about, oh, I'm green. It's going to be a happy day. I'm red. It's a really

bad day. It helped me discover things that have worked and not worked. Like you need the red days to almost be like, okay, well, that didn't work. Or I'm going to shift it way differently for the next couple days and see if I can bump that up. And maybe it's saying I need to take a break. And I got to be honest with that too, right? Like, trust me, I went through half my career willpowering my way through things. And it led to a lot of injuries. I mean, I've had two hip surgeries. I've had two knee surgeries. And I like to think that I'm pretty tough and resilient. But there were times where I pushed too hard. And it's, that's something that I use my loop data for. Now, do I wake up and I check how I slept I you know I've used it for a couple years now so I have a good idea

generally of where I am every once in a while I'm surprised right like I feel like the data gives you an early sense of if you're getting sick because like I'll random I'll randomly get a really low red and I'm like I kind of feel okay and like that that usually it gives me a day to maybe like okay if I am getting sick you know here's some of the things that I could do to maybe shorten the length of time that I'm sick which is great that's It's great info to have, right? But I mean, I use it for calculating how much REM is ideal for me, how much deep sleep. I use the stress monitor a lot, actually, at the bottom.

That's probably what I look at the most. Obviously, I have all my strains. And, you know, one of the most interesting things I would say recently was figuring out why certain warmups I was getting into my zone five so quickly, right? and actually eating close to practicing would put me in this zone five heart rate where I thought I wasn't, I was like, what, this is just a 20 minute warm up. Like, I shouldn't be revving yet. Like, this isn't even the match.

And so I'll use the heart rate sort of to gauge how long I want to be in that red zone, how if I want to stay in zone three. But the stress monitor is what I use a lot because when I'm going to bed, you know, I'll spend time if I feel like I'm not able to sort of come down into like that point three point two point four before I go into bed that's when I'll opt to do some breath work or I'll do like I have a couple brain games that I do that I feel like knock me out and and bring me down actually a fun a really wild stat that I've recently found out is cuddling with my husband puts me in a really low stress zone and it's just like I remember actually a few times we would watch we'd be watching

Netflix at home on the couch, and it actually caught me as napping. And I was awake. I was just so relaxed and my breathing was just that consistent that it put me in that state when I was cuddling with him. So it's now Justin knows when I say I want to I want to cuddle. He's like, are you just trying to improve your whoop numbers? And I'm like, no. That's so good. It's so true though. like you can you get in resonance with other human beings you know and it's almost like I mean I say like you should pick your partners based on like how they impact your physiology it's I'm not even kidding though like it's a hundred percent he's like I joke I'm like he's my grounding mat like yeah I really am stressed like a a long hug from him or just a cuddle like a quick cuddle at

night my stress level and I've documented it a bunch of times goes down to like point to Yeah, I mean, I think after six seconds of hugging, so that's like the, you want to make sure your hug is at least six seconds, because that's when you actually, your brain can pick up on the fact that you're hugging. And if it's, if it's working, you'll release oxygen. And the hoot data will tell you the truth. Yeah, that's right. Your stress water will plummet. It's so true, though, because even when you talk about, you know, I realized and I know, I use the journal a lot, right? just to keep track of certain things, whether it's, you know, I just did an ice, like I'm doing an ice bath here in Rome because I have access to that. Sometimes I do the cold showers, every once in a while I'll do cryo. So I generally keep track of sort of what I'm doing. And, you know, obviously, we'll give you sort of the percentages that you're getting out of it. And, but I noticed when I hang out with friends socializing, I put that as one of my journal links.

Did I feel like I, I socialized enough? Yeah. Because for me, And that's very personal because there's times where I can sort of get in my own world in a zone way. It's not even a negative way, but it's something so focused. And that actually tires me out. And if I don't spend time just going to lunch with someone or coffee or having a conversation outside of tennis, because I used to think those were tiring, actually. And my whoop data said differently that those were really important. for me having my consistent high recoveries because when I when I missed out on that when I thought I was kind of focused or in the zone in a good routine nobody like needs to like I'm good by myself

it wasn't it was never as high of a quality of recovery as when I I did have those moments where I spent time with family and friends too yeah yeah and there's a lot happening neurologically you know when we're in the presence of loved ones you know and people that we feel like we're really connecting with emotionally and spiritually and sometimes physically. So yeah, it's, yeah, I think it's pretty core to the human experience. And I think loop data will definitely confirm that that is true. Yeah. And stimulating conversations, even learning something. Like, you know, a big piece of this too is that I look to learn something every day. Like we talk about sort of that emotional and mental stimulation because again like this this is the joy of being an athlete

that goes to the extremes because i'll be like if i just rest all day and have no stimulation that's going to be optimal and you just start to see that oh i dove down this rabbit hole and learn something about rome or some other stats and like that all adds all of it adds like there's no I like I trust me I've been tempted to go find one vertical and be like this is the winner like if I just did this to the best of my ability that will catapult me and it's such a medley of everything and there's and and it changes necessary too like shifting and adapting being uncomfortable being comfortable like it's always it's always both sides gosh so true it's so true and I think like our our body like needs and wants that variety you know like when you think about like from an evolutionary perspective like we we were never in like temperature controlled you know environments right like we went from like hot to to cold to and i think just modernity has kind of robbed us right from all that variety you know and that's kind of what you're describing is you know putting your body through you know in healthy ways and

finding sweet spots across you know these different um you know i think we're charmedeer you know a lot of modalities, you know, like hot and cold and, you know, but also making sure that you're getting alone time, but you're also getting connection. And it sounds like you've just figured out an incredible balance across all of these things. I'm still, trust me, I'm still testing it because my, my extreme personality loves to like dive into certain areas. But then there's just this, this reminder, you know, that everything is, everything in the universe is changing. Everything about me is evolving and sometimes going with that flow is the best course of action we we force so many things and trust me i i still do right it's tempting it's like i could do this better i could like

make this happen and there's times we're just sort of letting that go and sort of following that that universal current is the best way is the way so you play mixed doubles and and doubles have you seen women's sports kind of evolve and you know where do you where do you see it going i i suppose and and what's what's your role well obviously i'm still still competing i feel like i'm still able to to sign up for tournaments and compete and give myself a chance to win so i love that i'm involved still in that capacity you know for me sports has given me so many tools that I maybe didn't always realize how important they were in life until, you know, I took some time off and joined real life. And I was just like, wow, I have like this discipline, this resilience, the problem solving, handling losses, handling big win.

And all these things that you learn playing sports have such a big crossover. And that's really a big message of mine is to sort of share that with all these young girls coming up, that you don't have to, it's not to just be professional. It's not just for awards on your wall. There's so much more that you get out of sports that apply to whatever you're going to do. And it's something that keeps your mind healthy, your body healthy. tennis can be social like for me tennis is an amazing sports i mean i you know doubles you get that team aspect sing there's something about singles in this individual sport learning what it feels like

to have all the pressure on you or having the win only be you right there's just so many different dynamics that tennis takes you through and i just would love to see more girls sort of be grow up in that with that confidence and with with those tools that they can go on and even if it's not professional and they stop after college. Like I want them to still continue that healthy body, healthy mind, healthy lifestyle and with whatever job or career path that they're following. And I feel like that's probably going to be, that's been one of my biggest messages because, you know, tennis really has given me a lot.

And not just because I've been professional. I've been at the top of the game. Yes, it's awesome. But if I really think about sort of the woman I've grown into, it's from being, it's from playing tennis. Yeah. What's your next major tournament? So I'm here in Rome. So this is a big event for us.

It's the same size as the tournament in Miami that my partner, Sonia and I won last month. So Sonia and I were playing here. She was actually playing singles today. There was some rain delays, but I think she ended up winning. So we'll play, we'll probably play Friday. or Saturday, so our first round. So we'll get, we'll, we'll, we'll kick it off. So I'm going here that I play a smaller tournament in Straussburg with another friend of mine. Dez, we're going to be, it's a small, a little smaller event. But then the next major is French Open in Paris.

So that's right. That's in a couple weeks. Yeah. That's really exciting. This has been such a fun conversation. You're like so damn inspiring. You know, you're 39 years old. And I think to just to have a career that seems like it's it's not slowing down. I mean, you're just seemed like you're on an upward tick in every way imaginable. You know, what do these next like five years look like for you? That is a great question. You know, I'll say kids are on the horizon here at some point. I've went through the process of freezing my eggs, which I think is something that, you know, I'd love to advocate just getting more information about sort of what what that looks like for women, especially athletes, because we're sort of in this space where we're making decisions

like that. It's like, do we, can we take time off? Can we come back? And, you know, it's inspiring to see how many moms have come back on tour. And, you know, it was something that, you know, my husband and I had spoken about. But we had, you know, I just, I felt sort of unfulfilled after a few of my injuries. I think after one of the surgeries, my knee surgery, I couldn't walk. I was like, well, we could have kids now, and just like, it's, it's probably not emotionally the time. Yeah. Just start talking about that. I'm injured and I'm some kids, yeah.

Yeah, but, you know, so that's definitely on the near horizon. But, you know, I've played a full schedule this year. I mean, I've been home six days this whole year and, and feeling good, really. I feel like it's, again, balancing the days off, enjoying the cities, enjoying the travel, traveling with people I love that are inspiring, whether it's my coaches, my friends, staying with family in Miami. So, you know, I feel like I'm playing a bigger schedule now than I was able to in my 20s. I mean, honestly, I'm more healthy now than I was in my 20s. I had more injuries. I had more issues. And that is all, that always feels great. It's like, do I just end my career like, hey,

I feel great. I'm just going to move on and feel great somewhere else. It's so hard as Stop playing, like when you're just feeling good, you know? But I will say it's more mentally, I think. You know, I guess I feel great that I'm physically, you know, I don't feel like that's keeping me from competing. For me, it'd be more, you know, there's other things I'm interested in doing in life. There's other places I want to go to other than the tennis tournaments. Every once in a while, I get to a tournament and I'm like, I feel like I've been here.

here a few times and it's getting a little repetitive. So I think that's going to be my moment where I'll choose to go do something else. But for right now, you know, I'm planning on finishing this year with a full schedule. You know, obviously I've been doing really well with with Sonia. My old, there was a big announcement actually the partner that I won all my grand slams with Lucy Saferova, who's a mom of two right now. She decided to come back. And so, we're going to we're getting the band back together she's from check republic so we're going to play for the first time in our careers we're going to play in prague and so part of me is like lucy you're deciding to come back now like i was kind of like on you know on the break of maybe naplin and she's

like hey we could just have some fun and i'm like i was like that sounds great actually i was like let's let's go so there's still a little bit of tennis left in me but um well we'll see how everything kind of bounces out between family and normal home life and sort of just even wanting to change a little bit in life. All right. So it's 10-10 in Rome and you're going to be heading to bed right now. We've got just, you know, you're like the master, right, of sleeping and recovery. So what are you going to do right now once you get off in order to make sure you get a nice restorative sleep. Okay. So first of all, I'm going to dim all the lights in this house. Like, one of the things that I do when I'm home is I have all my lights on dimmers. I've been tempted

to replace some red light bulbs in the house. I don't know. My husband is like not quite on that plane, but when I was staying with my family in Miami, I was staying with my brother. And he's kind of, he's a little bit like me. So he had the red lights in the garage, the red light in the bathroom. I'm like, this is awesome. So I'm going to dim all my lights. I actually might have a little bit of tea before I go to bed. I generally put a little bit of music on. So I just calm my nervous system down.

A lot of times I like to put my legs up. I do something. I don't know if you've heard of something called TRE. I'll sometimes do it. You know TRE. That's a whole other conversation because TRI has transformed some of my hips and some other injuries. So I'll probably do a little bit of that,

a little bit of breath work. So it's the releasing exercises, right? It's the releasing exercises. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's used in trauma. Like so, I understand. I know the clinical application, but yeah. Yep, yep.

So I'll do a little bit of that to sort of help me wind down. No screens, no phone. I put my, I put my phone on airplane mode. So there's no scrolling. There's no last minute scrolling. That's one of the things that I, I've noticed. If I do that, even when I'm meditating, if I, if I've been on my phone and I close my eyes, you notice your eyes are even going like this, right? And it takes me, and I'll know how stressed

I am, how long it takes me to still my eyes. And that's not even getting sort of my stress. That's just like my mind being too. So a lot of people, when they talk about their minds going fast, I'll shut down my phone sometimes hours before I go to bed. And I'm not scrolling. So if I'm doing anything it's just something around i can read a book or i can sort of listen to some music and that's that's about it so that's then i have my i have my bed all set up i i mean i have a it's funny because actually justin like makes fun of my whole routine like i have a whole when i'm home just even with my face products and everything like i make it all this nightly routine where i just go down like i'm not one of those people that can just go from this

to like conk out in bed. So I'll dim everything down and it will probably take me like 20, 20, 30 minutes right now, but that's, I'm good with that. I'll be, I'll be in the, I have a feeling I'll be in the green tomorrow. I had a pretty good recovery day today. I was able to get my stress down for most of the day. I stopped eating pretty early. So that's, that's how I use my move data. Like really, I just kind of know what, what things will give me the biggest percentages. when I can sort of do little resets and when I really need them, that I just kind of incorporate all the things that I know. So with that, I'll do a little bit of meditating and be out for the count.

I love it. This has been so fun. Thank you so much. Yeah. Good luck in this tournament. And can't wait to continue to follow you and your career. And just appreciate, you know, all that you've done to be. bring you know whoop to your followers you know i i love to see you post about it and uh it's

really cool so yeah we're really really grateful for just everything you've done for women's sports in general but uh in the sport of tennis and and just uh and certainly for you know just get and whoop out there to broader audience so thank you no i definitely appreciate it in any time i mean i could i could go down this rabbit hole for probably another two hours like there's so many things that I'm thinking about that I like to incorporate. So we'll have to do this again, but appreciate you too. I mean, really, I think that's sort of putting the info out there on all these different things that women especially can explore. You know, again, when we use the words like performance, it seems, it takes on a little bit of a masculine sort of path. But, you know,

women, you can just get better sleep, have more energy in your day. And you can really use all this data and learn more about your body, your mental faculties, your emotions, and how everything is sort of interconnected. So I really appreciate you for sharing that and for, you know, getting more data out to girls and women. And I think it will benefit, there'll be a big time benefit for everyone. So I'm here for it. Anytime you want to do this, I'm down. Just let me know. So grateful. Thanks, Bethany. Yeah, thanks, Kristen. To you. Big thank you to Bethany for joining the show today and sharing her passion for health and fitness. If you enjoyed this episode of the WOOP podcast, please leave a rating or review.

Please subscribe to the WOOP podcast. You can check us out on social at Woop at Will Ahmed. If you have a question once he answered on the podcast, email us, podcast at Woop.com. Call us 508-443-4952. If you're thinking about joining Woop, you can visit Woop.com to sign up for a 30-day free trial membership and take the first step to unlocking your own best performance. New members can use the code will, W I-L, to get a $60 credit on with accessories. Okay, folks, that's a wrap.

Thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with another great guest. As always, stay healthy and stay in the green.