WHOOP Podcast - How To Sleep Better with Dr. Shelby Harris

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

How can you improve your sleep this month? On this episode of our How To Series, WHOOP SVP Research, Algorithms, and Data, Emily Capodilupo sits down with Sleep Psychologist, Dr. Shelby Harris, PsyD DBSM. Dr. Shelby Harris is a clinical psychologist, specializing in behavioral sleep medicine. Dr. Harris provides expert insights on optimizing sleep through better bedtime routines, adjusting lifestyle factors like screen time and diet, and creating an ideal sleep environment. She discusses how sleep affects immune function, metabolism, mental health, and weight management while offering practical solutions for common disruptions like nighttime awakenings, stress, and irregular schedules.On this episode, Dr. Shelby Harris is helping WHOOP Podcast listeners learn how to get the best sleep of their life. Emily and Dr. Harris discuss Dr. Harris’s background (00:29), why sleep is important (01:18), misconceptions about sleep hygiene (02:05), how sleep is active (03:20), what habits are bad for sleep (05:58), and the effects of sleep apnea (08:20) and perimenopause (10:05). Dr. Shelby Harris shares the best habits to improve your sleep (12:29), why sleep hygiene involves more than just blocking blue light (15:25), and presents a valuable mental model for measuring normal sleep versus when it's time to seek help from a professional (24:59). Emily and Dr. Harris break down insomnia and how it can be treated (26:26), the importance of sleep during marathon training (30:00), where to start with sleep (35:40), and how WHOOP can help track sleep performance (40:16).Follow Dr. Shelby Harris:InstagramTiktokWebsiteSupport the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

Sleep is that thing that just keeps our systems going, keeps all systems kind of going. And if we aren't sleeping enough, we know all these terrible things can happen, right? Like we're talking about immune system issues. We can have issues with performance, cognitive performance, physical performance, increased risk of stroke, heart attack, all these things if we're not routinely getting enough sleep. So sleep is that thing that just keeps all the things more of like status quo. Dr. Harris, thank you so much for joining us on the Woot Podcast today. Thank you for having me here, Emily.

I'm really excited to talk with you today. Us too. If you're not familiar with Dr. Harris, she is an absolute expert on so many things related to sleep. Sleep is one of the absolutely most impactful things you can do to improve your overall health, yet it's something that people just constantly struggle with. So I am so excited for your wealth of knowledge about all things related to optimizing sleep, optimizing your bedtime routine, your lifestyle factors, your diet.

We're going to chat about how sleep affects the immune system, metabolism, mental health, weight management, and not to spoil things, but I think you're going to give us some practical advice and solutions for common challenges. So I'm really excited for all of that. Let's get into it. Let's do it. All right. We're going to start, hopefully, with an easy one.

why is sleep so important for our overall health? You know, it's funny. Everyone says that it should be an easy one, but it really isn't because sleep is that thing that just keeps our systems going, keeps all systems kind of going. And if we aren't sleeping enough, we know all these terrible things can happen, right? Like we're talking about immune system issues. We can have issues with performance, cognitive performance, physical performance, increased risk of stroke, heart attack, all these things, if we're not routinely getting enough sleep. So sleep is that thing that just keeps all the things more of, like, status quo and going. So it's hard to give, like, one succinct answer.

I never am able to do that. I love your answer. Sleep is important for absolutely everything. What are some of the misconceptions? The biggest one that I get all the time is I'll sleep when I'm dead. I get that one because I work in New York City. So I think that's, you know, sleep is the thing now that will help you with putting that death I mean, you can die from a million things, but sleep is one of the things that helps keep

other things going, right? So I think the other big misconception I get a lot is that you can always, I mean, there's two actually. One is that you can make up for a lot of lost sleep over time. So to some extent on weekends, you can make up for a little bit, but I mean, most people are burning the candle at both ends, that they're losing so much that on the weekends, it's like a tiny amount that you're able to make up. So you're really, really, even though you can fall asleep, you can sleep a lot on the weekends, you're just constantly paying back a sleep debt and you're sleep deprived. And then the other one I get all the time is people always say like deep sleep. I need that deep REM sleep. And REM sleep is not

deep sleep. Rem sleep is very active sleep. It's when our brains are processing. It's when we're having, you can dream in any stage, but you're dreaming the most during REM. We have more memory formation. Emotions are regulated then, that it's really a very active sleep as opposed to like being knocked up the whole night. I started studying sleep, I guess, back in 2009. And this realization that, like, during REM sleep, you're actually, you're so active that your body has to paralyze you. Yes.

And that, like, all these things are going on. It totally blew my mind. It's why I fell in love with the space. But I think maybe something that not enough people understand. So if you want to just keep going, what do you mean that, like, sleep is active? Like, everybody's perception of it is they're totally dead to the world, right? So what's going on? Yeah, it's not a quiet time throughout the entire night. And I think that's another big misconception, right?

So what happens when you go to go to sleep at night, if you're just generally a, let's use the term healthy normal, whatever normal really means, but healthy normal sleeper, you're getting, let's say, seven to eight hours at night. Once you go to bed at night, you cycle through various stages of sleep. So there's this stage one, which is kind of this in between stage. Like if you've ever noticed that you're kind of like half awake, half asleep, you hear a little noise. You're kind of like, that's that in between. in stage one. Then there's stage two, which is this kind of middle ground sleep. And you spend a good 60 to 65% of the night in that stage. That's really the part where our body is recovering. We have certain things that we see on an EEG on a sleep study called sleep spindles. There are different things that we see that are happening that are indicative of stage two. And that's really for your body's just general energy reserves that are happening during that time, sometimes memory formation. And then you go to stage three, which is that deep sleep. And that during that stage is

when your brain is really essentially turned off and your body isn't turned off. It's a little bit different from REM, but that's when we see sleepwalking, stuff like that can happen. But that's when your body is repairing itself. So that stage three sleep is when we see a lot of recovery from exercise. Muscle growth is happening. Kids have a lot of deep sleep ideally because they're growing during that time. So that's when our body is literally repairing itself. And then you go into REM sleep. And REM sleep is, like you were saying, it's that very active type of sleep. And that during that stage is when your body ideally is turned off so that you don't act out all the things that you're dreaming about during that stage. It's a protective mechanism. There's actually a sleep disorder called

REM behavior disorder that we treat when people's bodies don't turn off during REM. So you go through that all that cycle. Then you have a quick awakening. Usually most people don't know that they're awakening. Then you go back to sleep, rinse and repeat, four to six, four to seven times a night. And you have more deep sleep at the beginning third of the night and more REM sleep later on at the night, which is why people tend to remember their dreams closer to waking up. And they feel like their sleep is a bit lighter, closer to awakening in the morning. So you just talked a little bit about how, you know, the different stages of sleep are distributed differently throughout the night and have different benefits. If I really care about getting smarter, can I do anything to make more REM sleep? I really care about getting buff.

Can I do anything to get more slow wave sleep? How do people think about that? Yes, to some extent, although it's hard to like spot treat specifically, but there are things that we are often doing that might be then changing up our sleep staging. So one thing could be just inconsistent sleep wake patterns, right? If you're someone, this, for example, teenagers, right? Teenagers have, they have early school start times and they want to sleep later a lot of the times. So what we're doing for those teens is we're cutting off REM sleep because they're getting up so early to go to school. So they're losing. out on that memory formation, that emotion processing part because they have to get up early to go to school. So sometimes it's just the timing of our sleep and getting more consistent sleep that's aligned with what our bodies naturally want to do. Other things could be things like nicotine, alcohol. Those are things that can influence how much REM you're getting, usually decreasing it. Deep sleep is often influenced by the amount of sleep or the amount of timing

sleep that you're getting. But the other thing to think about for a lot of these sleep stages is also we take a lot of medications sometimes. So some people are on medications for anxiety, for depression. And some of these medications can change up the staging of the sleep as well. And sometimes people get very fixated on something saying, well, it says I don't get enough REM sleep, but they're not thinking about the entire picture of what they might be drinking or medications they're taking. And sometimes the benefit of taking, let's say, like an SSRI might overpower or outweigh the sleep. So we always think about it kind of in relation to everything else. You can spot treat it, but not always. Yeah. So it sounds like you can't super intentionally juice these things, but you can

likely accidentally do things that it's going to make it much harder to get into those restorative stages. Exactly. And also, sorry to interrupt. Sleep disorders. So certain things will impact sleep like sleep apnea. Like so many people don't want to think about their sleep apnea. And we see it a lot in people who are certain types of athletes, bodybuilders, we see it a lot. football players. But that can drastically influence the kind of REM sleep for a lot of people or deep sleep that you're getting. Sleep apnea is a tricky one, something like 80% of sleep apnea is undiagnosed. And so what should people think about there, given that it's so commonly missed? Yeah. So what I always encourage people to do is to try to table the idea that you

have to be an older male who's obese or overweight because that couldn't, I mean, yes, that puts you at a higher risk, but that is not something that is for everyone. So if you're someone who has tried all the basic sleep hygiene stuff, in general, you're limiting the alcohol, you're trying to keep a consistent sleep awake schedule. Maybe, and you've been doing that for a few weeks, I would always encourage you to talk with your doctor about it. And then if you notice you're having pauses in your breathing, if you wake up a lot to use the bathroom at night, you wake up with headaches in the morning, you have a dry mouth, those are all symptoms. Or if you feel like your sleep is just not refreshing. Those are all possible symptoms. But you don't have to be allowed snore to

have sleep apnea. It gets missed, especially in women all the time. Yeah. It gets missed in women because they're less likely to snore. They are less likely to either snore or report that they snore or the snoring is much quieter. So it might not be heard as much. And it might just not be there. It might just be little pauses. And women will often report feeling tired or sometimes their mood is down, more so than excessive sleepiness where they're falling asleep all the time. So it can look a little different. And we see the rates of sleep apnea get closer to equal as women start to reach perimenopause. And we're talking like late 30s and 40s. So I can't tell you how many people I've seen over the years who are thin, fit women that are starting to go through perimenopause. And it turns out that they

have sleep apnea that's causing some of their sleep problems. What is it about perimenopause that triggers sleep apnea. So great question. So the changes in progesterone and estrogen, the lessening of that tends to, first of all, for some people, it can cause more weight gain, right? So especially in the midsection, sometimes in the neck. And also it causes a loosening of your airway and your muscles in your body. So when you have a loosening of your airway and your muscles, you can snore a little bit more, have more of those pauses and breathing, and then you get more sleep apnea. Okay, so there's some very good practical tips in here because I think that people should be aware that this goes undiagnosed very often and that there are real consequences of sleep apnea, even in that kind of undiagnosed

phase. If you are feeling very tired or even falling asleep during the day, if you've noticed changes in your mood, especially if you're at that age of menopause or perimenopause, worth asking your doctor about it. How would you start that conversation with your doctor? I would say something like I've tried all the basic sleep hygiene stuff. I've limited my caffeine, limited the alcohol, and I'm keeping a consistent. And I still don't feel like my sleep is restorative enough. Or I have a lot of awakenings at night and I don't know if it's, and sometimes you can have insomnia and sleep apnea. But if you just don't feel like your sleep is restorative, you have to make the case for that. And if your doctor just keeps telling you, well, limit the alcohol, find a different doctor.

Yeah, but there's a really good tip in there too, which is first you want to try the caffeine and alcohol because that's where your doctor's going to dismiss you first. Exactly. And then if you've rolled that out, push on it. Give it like two or so weeks. If you don't see any gain in two weeks, like don't keep torture yourself. Go and push on it for sure. Oh, I like that because that's not even terribly long.

No. So you'll see this pretty quickly if it was purely a caffeine or alcohol issue. All right. I love that. what's up folks if you are enjoying this podcast or if you care about health performance fitness you may really enjoy getting a whoop that's right you can check out whoop at woup dot com it measures everything around sleep recovery strain and you can now sign up for free for 30 days so you'll literally get the high performance wearable in the mail for free you get to try it

for 30 days see whether you want to be a member and that is just at wu dot com back to the guests so we were talking a bit about you know some of the habits that can be detrimental to sleep what are some of the habits especially maybe ones that people don't think about as much that can improve the quality of your sleep the number one thing I do and I've said this a little while ago is I think consistency in your sleep like timing it doesn't have to be I think people get too rigid with the idea you have to get up exactly at the same time but within about an hour of the same time is really, really important. There was a whole consensus paper that came out just about a, I would say, a year ago at this point by some very, very big sleep researchers. And they

actually said, and I totally agree with them on this, that the first thing we need to think about more than anything is consistency of your sleep wake timing more so than the amount of sleep that you're getting. So consistency is the number one thing in my book. And then we also want to think about things that we're doing in the middle of the night, right? So so many people are like watching a clock in the middle of the night. And then they start training themselves to be getting up in the middle of the night. So I'm a big fan of keeping everything quiet, dark, cool, comfortable, trying to limit the distractions in the middle of the night because we're so used to like checking our phones now. And then just trying to keep that consistent timing. And I think if you can do those things and also just allow for

a little bit of time to quiet your brain down, sleep shouldn't be like an on-off switch where you pass out. You should be good overall with those things. We'll push is really hard on sleep consistency and it's important. I actually was lucky enough to do a lot of my thesis research with Andrew Phillips, who did a ton of the research around the importance of sleep consistency. And so I'm super familiar with all of that work. And we've incorporated a lot of that into how we think about sleep here at Woop. But I think it's important for people to remember, like, as much as Woop is pushing you,

you know, to get your consistency as dialed as possible. That, like, an hour really is a lot of wiggle room. Yeah. And, you know, I think something that should be reasonable from. most people to be achieving most of the time. Yeah, I think when people are fighting me on the fact that they can't sleep in a few extra hours on the weekend, the thing I always come back at is, well, why do you feel like you need three extra hours on the weekend? Is it because you're so sleep deprived or have poor quality sleep in the middle of the weekend? Usually that's the

answer for a lot of people, or they're going out and they're out really, really late at night, whatever it might be, and that can cause a lot of other issues. But yeah, consistency, I'm one of those people, it's like consistency is important with everything, but rigidity can backfire for so many people because I specialize in insomnia work. I just see people get too rigid on this stuff that then they put a hyperfocus on sleep and then it ends up backfiring in that way too. Yeah, I think there's something just from like a behavioral science perspective there that's helpful to understand, right? It's like you don't have to be perfect in order to get the benefits of moving in this direction. So it's like finding that balance between what's realistic

for you and, like, what's in the direction of better? Exactly. You talked about, you know, keeping your environment dark and, you know, sleep friendly. You talked about sort of how screens in the middle of the night can be really toxic. What is it about screens that, like, makes them so bad for sleep? So the interesting thing about the blue light aspect is that for a long time, for like the past 15-ish years, we've been in the field, been like, don't go near blue light. Blue light's the devil.

don't do. And there's been more recent research. There was just a paper out by Michael Gradosar. It was kind of groundbreaking for a lot of people. There was just an article in the Wall Street Journal a number of months ago about it. And it's really, it was groundbreaking. I wish it got more press than it did because it kind of confirmed what a lot of us in sleep medicine have kind of seen with our patients that the blue light has a tiny impact for many people, but not so drastic that it's, like, causing your stay up for hours. The bigger issue, in my opinion with it is, first of all, like, we all have them in our faces. Like, it's so funny, there's a generational thing, too.

I ask, like, younger patients almost never have a TV in their room. The older ones do, and they have the TV as further away. But most people nowadays are getting their phone closer and closer to their face. So it's right in your face. And then on top of that, it's what are you looking at, right? So the screens, for some people, they can sleep fine and watch an episode of, of, I don't know, the office or something. And it's quieting if they have a lot of busy brain.

But you have to be able to figure out, are you that person that gets so stimulated by it that you can't put it down, that it gets your brain too active, that it's really about figuring out where do you fall with your relationship with the screen? And in the middle of the night, I mean, it's like people are just picking up their phones and they automatically open up social media and, like, they go down that rabbit hole. Or they're binge watching shows and just automatically going from show to show. So that's the stuff that really has even bigger impact than the blue light. Blue light's not ideal, but it doesn't have that.

It's not going to make or break your insomnia treatment if you routinely have trouble with sleep. So this is a really interesting twist on this advice because I think so many people hear this blue light message and what you're identifying, which like if you think about it for two seconds, just makes so much common sense, right? Is that like hyper-stimulating yourself is about more than just light. So the light isn't great. but there's this other really, really intense stimulus.

And I've heard, like, funny things, like, where people will call, like, the office or friends, like their emotional support TV shows. It's always those two shows, too. It's hilarious. It's always those two. And they're emotional support TV shows. If there's a third, maybe it's Gilmore Girls, I'm not sure, but maybe I'm dating myself here. I don't know.

And I think in that case, it's something that could, like, to your point, be really calming because you know exactly what's coming. And so much of, like, sleep onset insomnia is anxiety. And so, like, that effect of calming your brain could be more beneficial than the sort of damage of the light. Exactly. But then, yeah, it's like the scrolling TikTok, which is just cortisol and cortisol and cortisol, like, has nothing to do almost with the blue light. Right. I have to remind people constantly in my practice, like, these apps are meant to be addictive.

So, like, it's supposed to be hard to put it down. But yeah, I'm not going to initially get into a debate with someone in my office about putting a show down. If it's something that's quiet, that's relaxing to them, that they kind of know what's going to happen. And it's kind of like a place holder for everything else that they can just turn it off when it's time to go to sleep. If they're still struggling with sleep, then we might try to target that a little bit more. And I'm also a little unusual in that one of the treatments for insomnia. So if you routinely have trouble falling asleep, one of the common treatments that we have is called, time-in-bed restriction. So we have people stay up later. So it actually helps them to fall asleep

faster because you're making them stay up later. And guess what I do? Because a lot of people are like, how am I going to stay up? I need to watch your phone. Watch it home. It works. And then it fixed the underlying problem. So it's not, I always am very cautious against a like black and white kind of thinking about a lot of the stuff. And I loved that paper on the blue light because it really helped to kind of show what we do clinically a lot of times with patients. Yeah. I think, think like just really, really practical great advice there around like, okay, blue light, important, not everything, and be really mindful about what you're watching because it's not this black and white screen time, no screen time. Like screen time can actually be a tool. And that's,

I think, a level of nuance that people haven't really been, I haven't heard, talked about as much. So thank you. Remember, you're welcome. The first paper that came out that was like, Blue Lights Bad, that was out of Harvard, Chuck Sazer's group. Do you know how? How long it actually showed that it delayed sleep onset? So actually, I worked for Chuck. So I do. But it was pretty short. It was like 12 minutes or something, right?

Yeah. I always said I rounded like 10 minutes. Yeah. And all of this field has now been around all that stuff for an initial paper that showed 12 minutes. Yeah. It's fascinating. I worked in Czech's group and all my thesis work built on that.

So super familiar. There you go. Huge fan of his, all the respect to the. contributions he's made to the field. But, yeah, I think, you know, when you look at the studies now that even, like, come, you know, way later, you know, what teens, the young teens are doing scrolling TikTok, which, of course, didn't exist at the time. Like, yeah, that's hours and hours.

Like, some of the data coming out of, like, the National Sleep Foundation shows that, like, compared to same age peers, like, 30 years ago, they're getting, like, two and a half hours less sleep. Yeah. But is it the blue light or is it? It's just scrolling, right? That's the thing. That's the difference, right?

But we're so quick to blame it on blue light, like you said, and just put on the blockers or the app, and then it gets around the problem, but you're still having trouble sleeping because you're not addressing the actual real thing that's addicting you. Yeah. All right. I think a lot of people are going to be rattled by this. You know, I remember back in college, and again, like I was working in Chuck's research group, but like putting flux on my laptop because I filtered out the blue light and just

feeling like so fitnessy and on top of stuff. And okay, so I think important takeaway for people, still limit the blue, limit the other really stimulating stuff too. Exactly. Okay. So we were talking about, you know, behavior. So we've covered light screens. What else do you want to talk about?

Habits that will improve your sleep. So habits that improve sleep, I think another big one is not thinking too much about it. Is that a weird one? No, I love it. one, but it's like the psychologist in me, and I think most behavioral sleep medicine experts would also agree, is that the more you think about it, the more you're actually going to make it harder to sleep. So if you're someone who generally doesn't have trouble sleeping, but you're not sleep deprived, you don't put that much thought into it, right? You might have a little bit of a routine

before bed that helps to signal. It's time to wind down and go to bed. Like I always do some stretching, do a little bit of reading. I get in bed. I like to do a little bit of face skincare. That's it. But I don't overthink it. If you overthink having to do all these things in line, putting on your blacking, your blue blacking glasses, all that stuff, you're actually going to make it harder for yourself to sleep. I really like that because I feel like so much of the sleep hygiene advice is around this idea of ritualizing sleep and all of this stuff.

And then I guess the other thing that's challenging is the worst thing you can do if you don't want somebody to think about something is say, don't think about this. So what are some of the ways practically, what does it look like to take that advice? Yeah, I think the first thing is to just say to yourself, okay, what are the things that are obvious sleep disruptors for most people that I'm trying to not do routinely? So alcohol, caffeine close to bed, right? All that sort of stuff. Being to work, I mean, working out even is getting a little bit debated in the literature a little bit too to close to bed. But any of those obvious things, you're doing what you can.

Otherwise, it's like, okay, I'm doing these things. I have a routine, but it's not going to like, I think the thing that should be the red flag is if you don't do something or you mix up the order of doing something that makes you more anxious about not sleeping and are you so worried about having a night where you don't sleep? Because you can still do all the stuff perfect and still have a bad night. It happens. That anxiety that it creates in you should be that kind of sense of, okay, maybe there's an issue here. And then the other thing that I always like to say is we have this thing called act therapy. This is this type of therapy called acceptance and commitment. treatment therapy. And one of the biggest ideas of acceptance and commitment, in my opinion, is this idea of not forcing it, right? So if you think about this finger trap toy, did you ever play with one of those? Oh, yeah. And the part of you pull the heart. Yeah, part of your pull. That's what people are often doing for sleep. So if you find that you're doing these things and you're still struggling, you should then go and get it evaluated and work with someone on meditation, mindfulness to be able to let go of those thoughts. Because the more you think about the sleep, the worse it's

going to be. And that's where I think meditation and mindfulness can help because it helps you to relax more than anything. So I love the advice around meditation, mindfulness, which I think is kind of everybody should be doing anyway for all kinds of reasons. But I also want to just kind of continue on the thread you had right there around like, you know, if it's so hard and you're so stressed about it, go get evaluated. What is, what's your trigger or like, what mental model do we want to share with people around this is the sort of, yeah, that's normal? kind of keep going on your own versus if this is what you start to see, seek professional help. I think there's a few ways to think of it. So one is if you are having trouble routinely with the

quality of the sleep you're having or like three or more nights a week, you're having trouble with falling asleep, staying asleep. Like that's definitely something you should or the timing of your sleep. You should get that evaluated. Or if you find that you're getting, like sleep is important. We are in the business of helping people sleep and doing these things. But if you find that you're becoming so hyper-focused on it, that it is making you not want to go out, stay up later once in a while. Like, I'm not saying to do these things routinely, but if you're not want to travel or like you're, you get very anxious thinking about sleep because you might not have the ability to wind down the way you want to at night or have access to certain things that you're

used to, that should be the red flag for you to really get that evaluated. Because there's more of an anxiety about sleep than anything that needs to get looked at. One of the things that's so challenging with a lot of sleep disorders is that they creep up on you. And so you just get used to being tired and you're like, I'm just somebody who needs a lot of sleep or I'm just somebody and you don't realize that like help is available. So I think it might be helpful. Okay, so I finally admit that I have a problem and realize that I'm meeting this three-day criteria. What is it that are actually going to do for me? Like, can this be fixed? Yeah. So it depends. What is it that's the issue, right? So that's the first thing.

I think if we're talking about insomnia, that's the criteria is three or more nights of trouble falling, asleep, staying asleep, or awakening. The first thing that we typically will do in the field of sleep medicine is something called cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia. So that different, it's an interesting name because people often think it's like CBT for anxiety, depression. It's actually very different. There's some parts that are similar, like where we challenge your worries about sleep, but a lot of it is this mismatch between the amount of time that you're in bed and the amount of sleep on average that you perceive you're getting. And so we try to limit that. And then once you notice you're sleeping a bit

better, then we teach people ways to increase the total sleep time. So it's essentially you're consolidating, spending a little less time sleeping, increasing that sleepiness that happens. So you fall asleep and stay asleep more and then teaching people to open up that window. And then there are other components. So like sleep hygiene is a piece of it, but honestly, sleep hygiene doesn't fix chronic insomnia. It just doesn't. Granted, if someone's drinking a two liter bottle of soda before bed with caffeine, good luck with that. But in most cases, most people have tried that stuff. It's kind of the control in a lot of studies. So we do that just to make sure you're doing this stuff generally. Then there's also this idea of getting out of bed if you're

really anxious in bed. So if you're trying to force sleep to happen, if you're lying there, that finger trap, right? I have to sleep. If that's happening, you're getting anxious, get up, go sit somewhere else, and just pass the time. It's not going to be finding something to make you sleepy. It's just passing the time so you're not lying in bed, worrying about it. And then we'll also build on to it some ways to challenge your thoughts about sleep, meditation, sometimes some relaxation. But the biggest components are really the getting in and out of bed if you're anxious and the limiting your time in bed. That's called sleep restriction. I hate the name, but it's called sleep restriction. It works very well for a lot of people. It's not an easy

treatment but it's the most effective treatment for insomnia ahead of medication and it works really really well for a lot of different people so we usually start there okay super helpful to understand all of that and I think you know if people are listening to this and they feel like they're hitting that three day mark you just said that's the clinical criteria for insomnia and there is treatment out there so yeah don't ignore that but also to add to that emily is that I like that criteria I mean, yeah, it doesn't have to be hard and fast three days. But I like that criteria because what it suggests to people is that it is also normal to have a bad night here and there. That's a key, right?

Like some of my patients think that I have like perfect sleep every single day. I'm like, no, I'm a human being. Take into account if you notice things going in the wrong direction, talk with someone, and it doesn't have to be medication. That's not the first thing that we usually do with a lot of people nowadays. Yeah, I think that's helpful too. I feel like increasingly people don't want to be medicated. And so if they just think that going to the doctor means I'm going to get an ambient prescription and, you know, that feels like scarier to like, oh, my sleep's not that bad. It's really helpful to be aware that there's all kinds of non-medication, non-pharmacological options out there. Yeah, that even outshine the medication. That's the crazy part. Even better. Yeah. Most people don't know about it. So, yeah, I highly recommend people look into it. Okay. I want to shift gears a little bit because I happen to know that you're a marathon runner, and we have lots of athletes at all kinds of different levels of athlete. I generally like, think that if you have a body, you're an athlete, but, you know, I think that people are really interested in hearing from the sleep doctor. How does marathon training change the way you sleep, both kind of beyond the training. How would you sleep differently or prepare to be really rested, say the night before the night before your marathons?

Oh, gosh. So, all right. So I have been running, I've run 24 marathons at this point. And so it's kind of crazy. I started when I was just about to turn 30 and I was working in the sleep lab here in New York City at Montefiore Medical Center. And I was like telling my patients, you should exercise. And I was like such a hypocrite. I didn't at all.

So I went from zero to 60 because I was a little crazy about it. But I noticed when I first started to run, because I was not a runner at all, I needed more sleep. So that was one thing from my own body. I started to need more hours of sleep. And when I could, I wasn't always able to do it. I actually needed a nap during the day. And it didn't impact my sleep at night. But I noticed that that recovery aspect for me was much more needed.

So that was one big thing. And then as I've run more and more, it's interesting. When I was in like my later 30s, I didn't really feel like I needed more sleep. I was so used to it that I just kind of, it just became the norm for me. But then now that I'm like kind of, I'm full on in like paramenopause and my later 40s, I'm noticing that the same kind of run, I'm still, I'm getting more tired. So I need to take that nap sometimes in the afternoon as long. And it doesn't impact my nighttime sleep.

So that's important for me. And then competition-wise, I do a lot of, when I do race it, competition, I mean, I'm competing with myself. I'm not winning anything. I notice that I focus on trying to get sleep, not the night before, because adrenaline will carry you through the race. It's really about thinking about the week before. So trying to think about what can I do to make sure I'm trying to get the most out

of my sleep or even months before, right, targeting problems that you might be having. But that week leading up is when I try to focus on it the most and just know that the night before is a mess for many people and you just have to let that adrenaline go because that's what often does it. But if you go in with a good base, you're going to be in better shape. I really love that point because I think that people get really stressed out the night before, whether it's a big marathon or big presentation at work or, you know, whatever it is. And what you're almost kind of saying there is like you can bank good sleep. And when it's a little bit less pressured, three days before, two days before, prioritize getting the sleep then. Because even if the night before the marathon gets compromised, which, by the way, it often does because a lot of times these marathons start at like 7 a.m. So you might be getting up at 4 in order to, you know, get your carbs in, travel, do all those things.

Exactly. Line up at 6 a.m. Yeah. I mean, I do the New York City Marathon almost every year. And like that one, I live up in Westchester. Like that is a full day's commitment. just to get down there for the start. It's a lot.

So you really do lose a lot of sleep. And it's hard to make yourself go to sleep three hours earlier than you usually do. Yeah, you're just not going to tired. So you have to have a little bit of acceptance, go into it with that. I know I said you can't fully bank, but you're doing the most you can. And then also thinking judiciously about your caffeine use, like anything that could potentially disrupt the quality you're getting, that's what you want to think about. And then one other thing I always add in.

I travel a lot for me. marathons. So I do make sure when I can to pack my own pillow. I pack. I make sure that I can get the room as dark as possible. I try to really like get everything out the night before that I'm going to eat the next morning so I can get the most that night of the sleep that I need to. So I don't have to wake up too early to get everything ready. Yeah, there's like a really, I think, practical and smart compromise there. It's like do the things you can. Yeah. You can bank a little bit. So start prioritizing sleep, what would you say three, four days? Three to four days out.

And then just let it go. And whatever happens, happens. And the good sleep leading into it, plus the training will carry you. Exactly. You said you travel a lot for marathons. What's the most fun place you've gotten to go to? That's a great question. I think the most fun one I've done was the Rome Marathon.

That's on my bucket list. Are you a marathon runner? Not as accomplished as you are. You got to do it. The European ones tend to wreck your ankles because there's a lot of cobblestones. But Rome, you start and finish at the Coliseum. I mean, it was pretty badass. That's pretty incredible.

And I finished and had like a bunch of gelato. I mean, come on. It's amazing. So, highly recommend it. Yeah, I know the ability to have a lot of gelato and pasta. Oh, that was the other thing. Yeah. Like post-marathon reward seems correct.

I was like, if I'm in a carboload, I want a carboload in the, like, the best place in the world to carboload. Yeah. And that was what I did. It was fantastic. Yeah, I know my husband's family is Italian, so we spend a good amount of time over there. There you go. Definitely would be the place I would choose to carbolode. I just have one more question as we get close to time here.

But, you know, I think a lot of people are looking for, you know, the easy, quick fix type stuff. Are there things, maybe just rattle off a few if you have them, but if there's one thing that, you know, we could get all these listeners to do tonight, what would it be? I have two answers. Can I give you two? That's okay. I'll take five. So the first one that no one ever wants to hear me say is start meditating today.

And it's not about doing meditation to fall asleep to. That's not the point. It's about doing something during the day or evening where you're practicing just you have something to listen to and you let your brain wander and you bring it back. And it's the bringing it back, which will help you. at night when you have a busy brain eventually to be able to let things go and say, okay, this is not helping me. Let me just go to sleep.

So if you can start today, the best time to start meditating was yesterday. So if you start that today, you will build in a better practice down the road. So that's number one. And then number two, I would say, is just try to give yourself a little bit of a buffer of if you are someone who's like, I never have any time to wind down. I'm going, going with my family. I work and then I have to go to sleep. Try to give yourself at least five minutes just to decompress.

right five minutes write things down get some stuff out of your brain because otherwise the minute your head hits the pillow you might be so sleepy you fall asleep but you might wake up in the middle of the night and have everything still there so try to just give yourself that five minute buffer and if you can do five minutes maybe work to eight and then kind of work your way up so that you get to like ideally 30 minutes I'm like I would love an hour but I think that's unrealistic for a lot of people you know what I love about your two answers and I truly love them they both speak to this idea that sleep is a skill. Yeah.

And I think that too often people, they focus on the caffeine, they focus on the blue light, and then they think of sleep almost as like a chemical reaction or, you know, a drug response. Yeah. You just need enough melatonin. You just, you know, need to not have the caffeine or alcohol or whatever it is. And what you're saying is like, no, like you have to learn how to turn your brain off. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny.

So I have a toddler. And, like, sleep training is a thing and, like, helping them learn how to, like, get comfortable and relax and all of that. And we know this with toddlers, and I feel like we forget it as we age. I say that all the time. What makes us so special as adults that we don't have similar rules that we should have younger? Yeah. Yeah. So I think, like, if more people understood that it's a skill and, therefore, something you can learn to do, not just, you know, need to change all your chemistry or whatever.

really changed so you think about it. And I think, too, that a lot of people are relying on other crutches to help themselves turn their brain off. Like we were talking about the TV and watching that. I get that. But a lot of people are using alcohol. They're using THC, whatever it might be, as an external way to quiet their brain down. But we need to start learning these other ways as the world is just getting busier and busier. and we have more external input at our hands at all times in the bed that really then can make us have an even more awake brain. Yeah, right.

It's all the things that are sort of preventing us from learning those skills and distracting us from practicing them. So you talked a lot about meditation. I also love that you talked about practicing meditation during the day. I think people don't give enough credit to the fact that, like, good sleep is kind of like an all-day thing. And setting yourself up. Well, we talk about meditation in the sleep medicine field more so of mindfulness meditation, right? So when your brain wanders, you bring it back.

And I always think of that like a strength rep when you're doing strength training. So every time you wander, the goal is not to focus the whole time. It's when you wander, it's bringing it back. So you're doing a strength rep. You're making your brain stronger so that at night when you want to let go of those thoughts, you are stronger from your daytime practice. That's how you have to think about it with the meditation. You're putting in the work so that you'll see the benefit at night.

Yeah, and I super love that. And I also just love how accessible it is, right? Like, you can practice this for free in whatever five minutes you can do it when you're, you know, at a red light and driving. People overcomplicate mindfulness meditation all the time. I'm like just, you don't even need two minutes. Start with two minutes if you can't do five. And the apps are good because it just gives you something to focus on, but whatever. It doesn't matter.

You can make anything into a mindfulness exercise. All right, so the thing that I'd love to just end on, because this is the Whoop podcast, after all, is how can wearable sleep trackers and Whoop in particular be helpful in all of this? And how do you think about that, you know, in your clinical practice? So I think for a lot of people, trackers are fantastic because we are in a world where we don't, there are many people who don't make sleep a priority. They don't think about it or it's that last kind of thing where they go to bed and they just pass out because they're so sleep deprived. So I think that the trackers, if you're someone who's

burning the candle at both ends, you don't think about your sleep. I think the trackers and the wearables will help to highlight maybe just how sleep deprived you are and things that you can do to improve the quality or consistency of your sleep. The other side, which I see sometimes in my practice, are the patients who have really entrenched insomnia and they are buying a lot of trackers. They're overly thinking about their sleep. And like we were talking about earlier, the finger trap, right? So by looking at the data, is the data actually helping you to change your relationships with sleep? Are you someone who's putting too much emphasis on sleep? That's a separate problem. And if that's doing that for you, then maybe put that to the side for a bit, work with

someone, and then you can revisit it when you have a different relationship with sleep. Yeah, I do very strongly resonate with the first part of what you were saying around people not being aware of how big of an issue it is. When we first started, you know, putting WOOP on people outside of employees, we started with Harvard athletes because sort of that's where Woop came from. And it was like you have these, you know, type A Harvard students. And we were like giving them like a C at sleep. You know, they'd never been told that they were bad at anything. And it just like, they like kind of fought back. They were like, no, I'm division one athlete. And I'm getting good grades. How could I possibly not be getting enough sleep? And it was right around

the time that, I don't know if you read like Sherry Ma's study at Stanford, yeah, was coming out and it was like, you know, free throws, yeah. Yeah, athletes getting, you know, those 10 and a half hours of sleep like are seeing more benefit, even if they weren't reporting being sleepy. And it was just totally mind-blowing to, you know, the research community, to anybody, you know, just that how much sleep you actually need. And that if you let yourself listen to this advice, because it is deeply grounded in science and there's good science there, you will feel better. And so I think it's been, honestly, like one of the things that I'm the most proud of is how many people we've gotten to get more sleep and to realize that sleep matters.

But I also appreciate the kind of healthy caution on the other side of if it's just becoming a source of anxiety for you, then you need people like you more structured support. And so if you're obsessing and stressing over your sleep data instead of being motivated by it, that could be a sign that you should talk to. Thank you. Yeah. If it's not helping you to make changes and you're just getting more stressed by it, get some help. Well, this has been so much fun. I love talking to anybody who loves sleep as much as I do.

Good talk about all day long. You know, our listeners feel the same way, and I'm sure I really appreciate this. So thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. If you enjoyed this episode of the Whoop Podcast, please leave a rating or review. Check us out on social. at WOOP at Will Ahmed.

If you have a question what's the answer on the podcast, email us, podcast at Woop.com. Call us 508-44349.52. If you think about joining Woop, you can visit Woop.com. Sign up for a free 30-day trial membership. New members can use the code Will, W-I-L,

to get a $60 credit on W-W-Acessaries when you enter the code at checkout. That's a wrap, folks. Thank you all for listening. We'll catch you next week on the Woop podcast. As always, stay healthy and stay in the green. Thank you.