WHOOP Podcast - Improving Sleep Performance For You and Your Family with Dr. Angela Holliday-Bell

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

On this week’s episode of the WHOOP Podcast, WHOOP SVP of Research, Algorithms, and Data Emily Capodilupo sits down with Dr. Angela Holliday-Bell, physician and certified sleep specialist, to discuss the importance of sleep training from infancy to adulthood. Dr. Holliday-Bell explains how building consistent sleep habits supports long-term health by reducing risks like cardiovascular disease, anxiety, and depression, while also improving daily energy, focus, and creativity. Dr. Holliday-Bell shares her insights from her own experience sleep training her infant and breaks down the variety of methods parents can use to help their children sleep through the night. Emily and Dr. Holliday-Bell discuss the need for setting solid sleep routines for your toddler, teen, and evolving with these habits as your children grow up. Ultimately, Dr. Holliday-Bell reveals the key to supporting your child’s sleep is supporting your own.  (00:54) Dr. Angela Holliday-Bell’s Background and Intro(03:18) WHOOP Rapid Fire Q’s (04:03) Importance of Regulating Your Own Sleep to Help Your Child(05:42) How You Sleep As A Child Impacts Your Sleep As An Adult(06:31) Skills & Behaviors You Need For Your Child’s Sleep Routine(09:36) The Three Habits To Try Before Seeking Help From Your Pediatrician(10:30) Life Through Sleep Stages: Newborn, Infancy, and Adulthood(15:52) How To Sleep Train Your Toddler(17:22) Importance of Whole Family Sleep Hygiene (20:30) Common Misconceptions About Sleep and Sleep Training(30:50) What To Look For In A Sleep Specialist(33:50) Sleep For Teens: How To Ensure Your Teen Is Sleeping Effectively(36:58) Sleep Patterns and Puberty: How Parents Can Help?(42:40) How To Reduce Sleep Deprivation(47:55) Wearables and Sleep Tracking for Parents & Kids(49:15) Dr. Holliday-Bell’s Message For Kids, Teens, & ParentsFollow Dr. Angela Holliday-Bell:InstagramTiktokLinkedInWebsiteSupport the showFollow WHOOP: Sign up for WHOOP Advanced Labs Trial WHOOP for Free www.whoop.com Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

As an adult, you're not sleeping. It affects every single area of your life. Your ability to focus, your creativity, your motivation, your energy, your health, at least to increase risk of things like obesity and cardiovascular disease and type of diabetes, as well as the mental health issues like anxiety and depression. So it's pretty serious in and of itself. Empower yourself, just like you're empowering your child to understand that you're doing the best thing for them.

Do it in the way that works for your family that you view and your partner, if you have one, can be consistent with and that you both can agree on. better for everyone. You're actually going to be a better parent for it. When you focus on your child's sleep, but then also take the time to focus on your sleep, too, because I see a lot of parents who will set up a bedtime routine for their kids and make sure that they have everything they need when it comes to their sleep, but then they're still, as a parent, sleeping poorly and not understanding that their sleep also matters. Hi, everybody. I am Emily Capitaluppo, Woop Senior Vice President of Research Algorithms

and data and today I am joined by the incredible Dr. Angela Holiday Bell. Dr. Holiday Bell is a board certified physician, certified sleep specialist who focuses on pediatric and family sleep health. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about this because I feel like so many people always have questions about their child sleep and their sleep, so I'm excited to dig it. Okay. As a mom to a two and a half year old, I am one of those people and I know so many of our listeners are those people. And if you're not, you know those people, so forward the episode along. I think this is one that people are going to be really excited to hear. I'd love to hear your story. How did you get into this space? And what does it mean to be a family sleep

specialist? Great question. So I actually got into this space because of my own struggle with insomnia. So I am a pediatrician by training. And as I was going through my medical training, I started to suffer from insomnia. Initially, I didn't have time to sleep because I was working 80 plus hours a week. But then it became me not being able to sleep even when I had the time. Absolutely one of the most stressful and frustrating things I've ever been through in my life. And so I started on my own class to just fix my sleep and started learning things about sleep, volunteering in the sleep clinic in my hospital.

And in that process, started to put practices into place that I was learning in my entire life, changed for the better. My relationships, my energy, I was being a better doctor, everything improved. At the same time, sleep was always coming up in every single visit, from the newborn visit to toddlers, to school-age children, to teenagers, to parents, saying, like, how do I sleep? And so I knew that it was about more than just me. I really needed to help everyone sleep. And so much of how you sleep as an adult is impacted by how you slept as a child. If you have children, it's impacted by how your children sleep. So everything is so interconnected that it was hard to focus on just one realm. So for me, it was important to help the entire family sleep because

it really is a family process. And everyone does better when everyone is sleeping. Oh, I fully believe that. And so beautiful to hear how you were able to channel your struggle into something so helpful for so many people. So congratulations on that. It's so credible. Before we keep going, I'd love to jump into just a rapid fire list of questions, help people. get a sense of where this is going. So I know this can be tricky, but try to just answer true or false. Okay. You ready?

Yes. All right. True or false. Letting your child stay up later will actually help them fall asleep. That is false. True or false. Parents should sleep train themselves too. True.

True or false. Blue light affects children's melatonin production even more than adults. True. True or false. Kids who sleep better have stronger immune systems and better behavior. True. Same question for adults. True.

True or false? Your own sleep quality as a parent directly impacts how well you support your child's sleep. 100% true. Okay, so what I love about maybe some of the themes that came up in these questions is that it really gives parents maybe some permission to engage in some self-care and to prioritize their own sleep. I think as parents, whether it's easier you feel pressure to sacrifice your own sleep. certain ways you have to, right? If you're nursing a newborn, you're getting up in the middle of the night. But I think a lot of parents do struggle with this. So moving away from just the true or false, now let's get into the meet. Can you help people understand why their

own sleep is going to affect their kids' sleep and why this is not selfish to prioritize? Yes, absolutely. You hit the nail on the head and this is part of why I do what I do and looking at the family as a whole. First of all, again, how you sleep as a child significantly impacts how sleep as an adult. And for our children, they model our behaviors, right? So if you want your kid to eat healthy, you also need to eat your vegetables. If you want your kid to exercise, you need to show them exercise. Same thing goes with sleep. So if you show your kids that sleep is not important in that you're sacrificing sleep, no matter what you're teaching them for their sleep, they're going to look at the behaviors that you have. In addition, in order to be the most present,

best patient parent that you can be, sleep is a significant part of that because our emotional regulation is significantly impacted by our sleep. So I would like parents first to have the permission that you can rest, that you deserve to rest, and that you actually become a better parents when you do. And your kids are looking at you from the moment that they're born up until adulthood. So you really want to model healthy behaviors that will help them live their healthiest lives in the future as well. I love that. You mentioned that how you sleep as a child impacts how you sleep as an adult. How does that work? So sleep is a skill, and a lot of people don't understand that.

You feel like, oh, you're born. Of course, you just sleep. Absolutely, there's sleep pressure that builds, and over time you will sleep. But in terms of having healthy sleep habits, it's something that we need to learn. One of the best things you can do for your children is teach them those healthy sleep habits from a young age. A lot of the adults that I see who have chronic insomnia, one of the first things they'll say is I've always been a bad sleeper. My parents tell me, I've never slept well. And that's because they don't learn the healthy sleep habits.

and it just gets worse and worse and grows over time. So you really want to implement healthy behaviors and strategies when you're young so that you don't have to undo all of those unhealthy behaviors when you get older. So start young. It will be one of the best things you can do for your children. Okay, so I'm sure our listener's question is what are those behaviors and what are the skills that they might be missing? Yeah.

So first of all, prioritizing sleep. Like I said, as a family, helping your child to understand that sleep is important. It's not something that you leave as a last minute thing, When we're done binge watching our favorite show and scrolling through social media and leaving whatever time is left over for sleep, is having conversations about the importance of sleep early. When you have a baby and infant and into toddlerhood and childhood, setting up specific sleep routines. So having a consistent wake time, a consistent bedtime that is a non-negotiable.

This is the time we go to bed. This is the time we wake up. And then having a bedtime routine that coincides with that, right? So a wind down 30, 45 minutes before bed. where you're doing the same relaxing activities and preparing your child for sleep. And again, during that time, talking to them about why this is important, why sleep is important, you're going to learn better, you're going to feel better the next day. So it's really prioritizing and setting up those healthy habits.

And let's say people are listening to this and they're saying, you know, oh, I try to do that and it's not working. What are the things that are behavior and you're a pediatrician? What's the moment where we're struggling with sleep and it's actually a, you need to go see a pediatrician or access a more clinical evaluation moment. That's a great question. And when it comes to kids, it really depends on their age and developmental stage because what we expect from them is going to be a little bit different at each stage. But to speak broadly to that, whether you're dealing with your child sleep or your own sleep,

I always say have a very low threshold to seek help. Sleep should be thought of as one of the significant pillars of health. So if you were struggling with anything else, if you were to walk out this room and fall and break your leg, you're going to go to the hospital, right? Because you need your leg to be working properly for you to function properly. Same thing goes for your sleep.

So if you are struggling with your child's sleep, if you're struggling with your sleep, absolutely bring it up to your pediatrician. You don't have to wait a certain amount of time. Same thing goes for yourself. As pediatricians, we do have some knowledge around sleep. Not all of us are sleep trains, you know, the way that I am and I've sought additional

education on that, but definitely you can be given adequate resources or refer to the person that can give you more help. But I say have a low threshold. If you're struggling, go ahead and bring it up. I love that message because, you know, you mentioned during our rapid fire true and fall section that it was true that sleep affects immune systems and that a lot of behavioral issues get exacerbated by poor sleep. And so sleep isn't just about are you tired or not. It's about whole body health. And I think it is important. I think culturally we, and there's good reasons for this, but we treat medical professionals with a lot of, like, reverence and people try to solve issues by themselves. And it's worth remembering that these are resources there to

help you. And we shouldn't struggle with sleep by ourselves for too long. So you heard it from a pediatrician. She says, make an appointment. Low barrier. Absolutely. So what would be, I just want to make this really practical for people because I think this is really important. What would be the try A, B, C, and if that doesn't work, call me. Like, what would that look like? Yeah, so let's start by age. So in the infant sleep period, first of all, understanding what to expect. So for the first three months, like you said, babies are going to wake up to feed all throughout the night. They need to do that. You're just following their hunger cues and their sleepy cues. You try your best to get the best quality to sleep during that time period that you can. But then after that,

there are things you can put into place to train them, teach them what to expect, whatever you want to call it, to sleep. Generally speaking, with consistency, most things, even for a toddler or older child, within a week, you should start to see some improvement. There's going to be variations depending on the tactic that you use. But if you're being consistent with a routine or strategy, and within that week, you're not really seeing change, then definitely bring it up to your provider to talk about some of the strategies. Okay, I like that. We've talked a little bit about how sleep is a skill, and this is true for children. adults. What are the ways in which childhood sleep actually is different from adult sleep and therefore where parents might be misunderstanding or confused about what they're seeing? Yeah. So starting

in infancy, first of all, the architecture of sleep in infancy is very different than that of an adult. Infant sleep, especially for the first three months, is broken up into two separate stages. You have REM sleep, which is also known as active sleep. And then you have non-rimmed sleep, which is quiet sleep. And babies actually spend about 50% of their time in each of those stages. As they get older and transition beyond the three-month period, then their sleep architecture starts to break down a little bit more like adults, where that non-rimmed sleep is broken down into three separate stages. And then they have that rim sleep, and that they're slowly spending less and less time in the rim sleep and closer to about five years of age, their sleep architecture and the time spent in each stage looks more like hours. This is important to know because as babies are making that transition from the infant sleep, the newborn, I'm sorry, sleep architecture to infant sleep architecture. That's when we start to experience changes like the four-months sleep regression and they're waking up more often because they're awakening between these stages that they're now going through.

And a lot of them have not learned how to self-soothe or fall back to sleep themselves. So the parents intervene. And that's not wrong, but the goal is to teach them the healthy independent sleep habits. And so your expectations around that time need to change a little bit. So talk about that. How do expectations change and how do parents support that four-month sleep regression? because I think I did that one wrong and that ended up being months four through six and a little bit painful.

Tell me what I should have done. So understanding, like I said, for the first three months, they're going to need you to intervene. They're going to be hungry. They need to feed overnight. At about four months and 14 pounds, generally speaking, understanding that every child is different, a lot of children are able to sustain themselves overnight without requiring a feed because they have enough glucose stores or sugar stores that they don't need it. And they neurologically are able to self-soothe a bit.

So at that point, your attention should shift to teaching them how to soothe themselves back to sleep during that transition between sleep stages as opposed to needing your intervention. The way that you do that is up to you. There's no right way to do it. We can talk about the different ways that there are, but choose a way to teach your child the healthy sleep habits. Try not to intervene too much or start to do too much for them because then they learn that they do need your presence or they do need something additional. of themselves to fall back asleep. And we call that negative sleep associations. And so it's much more difficult to then have them unlearn that behavior. And now they have to start kind of from scratch to learn how to fall back asleep. So be consistent. Choose one way to teach them. But at the

end of the day, you're teaching them how to self-soothe, how to fall back to sleep without needing your intervention. So this teaching, that's sleep training. Yes. How do you know that your baby's ready for sleep training because you're saying the first three months or so, they're not ready. They need that feed. And then you mentioned 14 pounds, three months-ish. They have enough glucose stores to last the night. We're probably not testing our baby's glucose levels. So how do I know that I can start sleep training?

Really, when they reset four months and 14 pounds, it's a good benchmark for most babies. Four months, 14 pounds. We use 14 pounds as a surrogate for the glucose store. so we assume that once they reach this weight, they have enough that they're able to sleep train. For most babies, it's within that four to six months, though. So now every baby is ready right at the four months, but usually within that time and that weight. Talk to your pediatrician, make sure that they're growing adequately, that they really don't need those overnight fees to stay on their growth charts. Some other markers, though, is if they're able to have a slightly longer sleep stretches without needing to feed.

So now they're going four, five, six hours, if you've seen themselves sooth sucking their thumb and they go back to sleep or my son likes to like rub his own head and he falls back to sleep. It's a cutest thing. But that lets me know that he has some ability to self-soothe. Those are perfect markers that it's okay to go ahead and start. Instead of training, I like to say, teaching them what to expect, setting up healthy expectations for what happens overnight. Perfect time to start doing that. I love that framing because so much of like the mommy wars and the blogs and everything, it's about like you have to let them cry and like suffer and there's so much negativity and it's like don't sue them and it's it's about deprivation and I think that just when you're vulnerable and postpartum it like hits hard but this

framing that you're offering people is I'm giving you a skill a skill that lasts a lifetime absolutely and it's this ability to to know that if you support that transition by empowering them to be capable, that's actually a huge gift. Absolutely. And I love the way that you just frame that, empowering them to be capable. Oftentimes in parenting, a lot of it is trial and error. It's allowing our children to explore this world that's completely new to them and learn what to expect from the things that they do and their actions. And sometimes there's a little bit of struggle associated with that, and that's okay. That doesn't mean that it's bad. A lot of growth comes from some of that struggle. So it is allowing yourself to take a step back and empowering your

child to work through it and develop these independent skills. Now let's say somebody's listening to this and they're thinking, uh-oh, I messed up. And, you know, they didn't sleep train and they, you know, they went in and they comforted their child. And maybe now that child is two, three, four years old and regularly waking up, coming into mom and dad's bed, all that kind of stuff. What do you do with those families? Yeah. So first of all, I want to reassure them that you've never messed up, right? It can feel that way in a lot of areas of parenting, right? There's no handbook that comes with this. And for some families, there's one way that works for them.

And for others, there are other ways. So I always like to tell them to understand that it's okay. You didn't mess up. And there's never a wrong time to start sleep training, especially beyond the four months and 14 pounds, right? Some adults need sleep training. I should say a lot of adults need sleep training. So whenever you decide that this is something that you, want to empower your child to do and help them develop those skills, that's the right time to go

ahead and do it. Will it take maybe a little bit more time for a child who's gone two, three years without having those independent sleep habits? Yes, but it's still possible. And also understanding that developmentally, that may look a little bit different. So as a child becomes a toddler and they understand rewards and punishments a little bit more, it can be helpful to do what we call positive reinforcement. So you're rewarding them now for those behaviors. You're doing sticker charts and you're doing rewards, and they really want that praise from you, and so you can use that to your advantage. So it'll look a little bit different, but it is always possible. You know, I think you have this really unique and beautiful approach of whole family,

sleep, coaching, and support. And so I think maybe also now helpful to talk about what are the ways in which these parents whose children are constantly waking up and either calling out are coming into their parents' rooms, what are the ways in which they might be suffering that they haven't quite articulated to themselves? And, you know, hopefully they can hear some of that and that help them motivate resolving this issue and kind of getting through this hurdle. Yeah, so first of all, feeling guilty, feeling bad about wanting to sleep, or give their child those independent sleep habits, feeling like they should have to intervene. Feeling deprived themselves, So as an adult, you're not sleeping.

It affects every single area of your life, your ability to focus, your creativity, your motivation, your energy, your health, at least to increase risk of things like obesity and cardiovascular disease and type to diabetes, as well as the mental health issues like anxiety and depression. So it's pretty serious in and of itself. And again, you are helping your child to avoid some of those consequences potentially later. So empower yourself. It's like you're empowering your child to understand that you're doing the best thing. thing for them. Do it in the way that works for your family that you and your partner, if you have one, can be consistent with and that you both can agree on, but understand that it's going to be better for everyone. And again, going back to the idea that you're actually

going to be a better parent for it, when you focus on your child's sleep, but then also take the time to focus on your sleep too. Because I see a lot of parents who will set up a bedtime routine for their kids and make sure that they have everything they need when it comes to their sleep, but then they're still as a parent sleeping poorly and not understanding that their sleep also matters. Yeah. I think one of the things that just people don't realize is that when we're sleep deprived, we get impulsive and reactive. And so much of parenting, especially little kids, is the ability to roll with the punches, not get too upset by the crazy things that toddlers will inevitably get into. And so I do hope that people hear what you're saying, that this

is a whole family gift and that you'll show up as a better parent, you'll feel better, you reduce your own long-term risk of disease and just lower functioning and give your child a gift too. Absolutely. And understanding that you're more present as a parent when you are well-rested, right? Even if you're showing up and doing the things that you need to do, being present in that moment, really in it with your child, really able to enjoy all of the milestones and the beautiful things that comes with parenting is enhanced so much more when you're doing it in a well-rested

state. Our best offer of the year begins tomorrow. Get up to $60 off annual memberships, plus save 30% on 5.0 and MG accessories and apparel. That's right. The best offer of the year runs from 1120 through 12-2. What are some of the misconceptions you hear a lot around sleep and what do you wish people knew that they don't really understand. The biggest one I see, especially surrounding infant and child sleep is that sleep training is harmful. And as you mentioned, coming from this place of deprivation and you're not comforting your child. And I like people to reframe that, again, is equipping them with those independent sleep skills. But also speaking objectively, there are studies that have been done one very popular study that compared children who were

sleep trained using the graduated extinction method or Ferber method. Some people, People call it where you wait longer and longer intervals before you go in and come for your child. But during that time, you allow them to cry and then you go in and soothe after longer intervals compared to children who are not sleep trained. And they measure the children's cortisol levels, which is a marker of stress, as well as their attachment styles at year one. Because some families believe that, oh, they're going to be insecurely attached and they're going to learn that I don't, their caregiver doesn't give them care. And what the study found was that after the sleep training, the cortisol levels of the sleep trained children was actually lower than those who are not. And the attachment styles were similar at one year follow-up.

But the maternal mental health was better for the sleep trained individuals. And so understanding that you're not harming your child, you're literally teaching them what to expect, which in a lot of ways is really healthy for a child. That's the routines are so important. And that's the way that they learn to navigate the world. So that's a huge one. Aside from that, though, one big misconception that parents have is that if their baby specifically is moving a lot in their sleep, that means they're not sleeping well or their sleep quality is poor and often leads to them intervening sooner than they need to. But if they understand the sleep architecture that I mentioned, babies spend 50% of their time in REM sleep, which is that active sleep, dream state sleep for adults. And babies are actually not paralyzed like we are. Our muscles are paralyzed during REM sleep for babies. it's not. So they're literally acting out their dreams is a way to think about it. 50% of the time that they're sleeping. So they're going to move around a lot and grunt and make all these crazy sounds, but that doesn't mean that they're not sleeping. That's just a part of the way

that their sleep is. And then lastly, I think you kind of touched on this earlier, is thinking that having a child stay up later will then help them sleep better at night. But that's actually not true because if they miss their nap time or their wake windows are too long, it again causes an increase in that cortisol and gives them that second wind effect. And that's when they start to fight sleep, have more broken sleep, have trouble falling to sleep at night. So you really want to make sure they're getting an appropriate amount of daytime sleep to help their nighttime sleep. So that was one of the things that as a mom, like I think everybody has experienced that because it does feel counterintuitive. But it's such a great example of how sleep is actually a skill.

And if you're at the point where you're like quite literally just passing out and like there's so much sleep pressure that you just kind of almost just like have no choice but to sleep, you're actually incredibly sleep deprived and have gone way too far. And so what actually happens is when they're not so wildly exhausted, they can, this sounds like maybe the wrong word for an infant, but it's like they can tell themselves, I'm safe, I'm comfortable and allow that transition to happen. But when they get so dysregulated because they're overtired, then they're just uncomfortable. And so that discomfort manifests as screaming, which is very counterproductive to falling asleep. And so there is nothing harder than getting my child to go to sleep when we get like, you know, 45 minutes or something past bedtime. And you'd think like, oh, she should be really tired. This will be easy. And it's a little counterintuitive because like going to the playground and running around is great for sleep.

Yeah. Staying a plate for her. Terrible. And it's that dysregulated when she's like, I'm uncomfy, and I'm like, uh-oh, I'm screwed. This is going to be very challenging. And then the other thing you said, which also I did not realize until was sort of living it with my own child was how wiggly they are within sleep. And there's such a trend of, you know, you have to keep your kid in your room right by your own bed because it's protective against SIDS. And I know, like, when I was in a newborn, you know, we were in our own bed from night one because that's what they told parents to do 30 years ago.

And now it's, you know, they have to be right there. And so as a result of her being in like a co-sleeping bassinet, 12 inches from my face, it was like as soon as she made a noise, I'd go pick her up. And I didn't realize that she's actually not even awake. And one change we made was we moved to the bassinet instead of literally right up against my bed to like 10 feet away, but still in our room. so I could see her, but often, like, by the time I had gotten out of bed and walked over to the basement, she'd fallen back asleep. And so that was a bit of an unlock. And so it's so uncomfortable as a new parent where you're, like, so committed.

And, you know, I woke up the second that she made any noise. You can probably tell it was my first kid. You know, and then you're like, oh, I just want to, you know, not let you cry and not let you be uncomfortable, but I was probably waking her up doing that. Exactly. Exactly. And then the other thing you talked about that just very much resonates with my experience as a mother, especially as my daughter's getting a little bit older and into the intense I can do it myself phase is, you know, it doesn't surprise me at all that the kids who can self-soothe have no increase in cortisol because nothing makes my daughter feel better than feeling competent. Yes, absolutely. And so, and like that learned helplessness of, you know, I can't do that. this basic biological function by myself, I need, you know, to be rocked, I need to nurse or to have

a bottle, all these things, enforces this idea that I'm not capable. And that's actually a little bit terrifying to feel like it's not a healthy attachment. It's a dependency. And it's one thing to have healthy relationships. And I think very stressful to feel completely dependent. A hundred percent. I think you hit the nail on the head. And so there's some of that intervening that is appropriate and comforting, but some of that is just letting them learn the world now that they're in and giving them some independence and some space. And then you'll be surprised just like your daughter fell back asleep before you even needed to intervene. You'll be surprised at what they're capable of if you allow them the opportunity to do so. Yeah, I think

it's hard until you've lived it, but they are even from like a pretty young age more capable than I think we get told they are in all those things. And it's really incredible to watch. Agreed. Such a privilege. What other misconceptions would you like to debunk? I would say those are the biggest ones. Oh, the other one is that kids will just grow out of bad sleep habits over time. Like, oh, they're a bad sleep. They'll just grow out of it. And as I've already mentioned, how you sleep as a child has a significant impact on how you sleep as an adult. And so thinking your child is just going to grow out of it so you don't have to implement those healthy things is not the best way to think about it. So you do want to set up those healthy behaviors. And then also

the thought that sleep training is synonymous with cry it out. Like when people think sleep training, they think cried out. That is one method and that does work. But there are multiple other methods and it's more important to be consistent with the method you choose than whichever method it is that you choose. I like to empower parents that there's no one way. Every child is different. Every family is different. There's no one right way to do anything. So don't think that because you can't stand necessarily to hear a child cried out, then that means I can't sleep train. Think about the other methods and what might work best for you, but be consistent with whatever that is that you choose. I love that. And I think sometimes people get really anxious with like

the be consistent advice because it's like, well, I'm trying to be consistent. It's not working. How do I know maybe that I tried this and now it's time to try something different? How long would you give something like this before mixing it up? And that's a very fair concern because I also think think parents get confused with consistency and flexibility. And they are different. So you should be consistent, but not necessarily inflexible. Because again, every child is a little bit different. And so if you're trying to be consistent and things maybe aren't quite working the way that you thought they would, it's okay to be flexible and shift a little bit. But a good rule of thumb is, again, within a week, most methods should see some improvement. The gentler the method or the method

that requires more of your intervention will take longer to fully quote unquote work. But you should start to see some improvement generally within a week. And if you're not and you're making adjustments and it's not working, it's okay to seek help. With your primary provider, pediatrician, a trusted sleep training expert, there are many out there. But some who have certifications behind their name, understanding too, that one specific method may not just work for your child. Temperaments are different. It can be hard when you're comparing your child to other children and families who are like, oh, my child. child slept in three days with this method. And you're like, what am I doing wrong? It may not be

something you're doing wrong. It just may be that your child is a little bit different. From personal experience, I have a four-month-old at home. And we recently just completed the sleep training process. And he did amazing. We decided to do cry it out because that's what worked best for our family. My son gets very stimulated if he sees me at all. So coming in to check on him frequently would have just stimulated him so much. So I decided not to do that for him. But he's a big boy he was born nine pounds one ounce and he he's pretty big and so after a certain period he was actually needing still a nighttime feed like he was trying to self-soothe but really couldn't get there because he was hungry towards the like end of the night and so we ended up doing a combo of kind

of a cry-it-out and a night weaned so we like weaned that last feed to get him used to not needing it anymore and shifting it and now he's sleeping 12 hours a night without needing it but there had to be and flexibility involved for him to get there. That is incredible that your four-month-old is doing that. And congrats on the new baby. Thank you. That's very exciting. One thing I want to pick up on that you said that I think is really important.

So you are a certified sleep specialist, and you said seek help from people who are properly certified. There are probably, I don't know, 10,000 to one in terms of mom influencers on Instagram telling you what to do versus actually certified sleep specialists. And so what does it mean that you're certified? what should people be looking for and what are the watchouts for all the social media noise out there?

Oh, that's a hard one. So first of all, a physician, your pediatrician is going to be the best highest source, I would say, in terms of either helping you themselves or recommending someone who is going to have the credentials to back up

what they're saying. So I would say start there. Then there are people who are certified. So there are so many different certifying, Like I'm certified by the board of registered polysumographic technologists. It's like a very high board. It doesn't have to be that case. There are people who are just certified in sleep training.

But I would say if they're giving advice, look at what their credentials are. Are they actually certified? Look up what that certification is. And then there are just influencers who speak from just their one very own singular experience or what they think should happen. And there are no certifications behind their name. And I would just be very cautious of listening to that information. Not that it's not true or not valid, it just may not apply to you.

And there's just so much noise that you really want to make sure you're getting it from at least verified source. So I don't expect you to know what all the certifications are, but at least starting with someone who is certified and has some sort of credential behind their names is a good place to start rather than someone who's just saying things based on their own experience but doesn't have any verification behind it. Yeah, and I think this one's so tricky because there are so many influencers out there. And it's very tempting, you know, at 3 a.m. when you're nursing to just scroll social media. And I think we do and should get a lot of advice from family and friends and things like that. But I think it's really helpful and important for people to realize that there are experts out there. Exactly, exactly. Especially if you feel like you're struggling despite some of that advice to go seek those people out.

Exactly. And then it can be tempting in those situations to hop around to different methods. I'm going to try this. And this person said this. I'm going to try this and try that. And then it becomes confusing to your job because now you're trying all these things and it really isn't working for anyone. So I would say try to have someone who has some credentials behind their name, stick with a certain method. Be flexible, but try not to bounce around to all the shiny new things that people are talking about that works because that can often make things worse. Yeah, I think that piece is so important and you've touched on consistency a couple times in that 3 a.m. breastfeeding, doom scrolling, not to just totally change and over-rotate your parenting

strategy night overnight because that's just chaos for everybody and probably drives your partner crazy too. I've been over indexing, I think, on infant and toddler sleep because I'm in the thick of it. I'd love to hear a little bit about sleep for older kids. And one of the stats that I've been terrified about for a while from the National Sleep Foundation is that kids in like elementary school age are getting something like two and a half hours less sleep than they were 30 years ago and sort of just the prevalence of screens, especially kind of handheld personal screen devices, whether that's laptops, computers, or even TVs in their bedrooms, are sort of causing.

And so how should parents think about those things, especially as you get into those teenage years where there's so much social and peer pressure to provide those and they might even need laptops and things for schoolwork? Yeah. So having boundaries around the type of screen use and the timing of screen use, blue light. which is richly emitted from screens like the television, the computer, the phone, and tablet, suppresses melatonin for anyone. So light is a strongest factor that influences your circading rhythm in a way that tells you to be awakened alert by suppressing your melatonin, and the blue wavelength of light has the strongest alerting effect. Children's retinas are more sensitive to light in general, so they are even more sensitive

to that suppression. And because their circadian rhythms are still developing, it is a lot more sensitive to things that dysregulated. So a lot of our modern world comes with technology use now, unfortunately, but really limiting that to school time. And then after that, instead of maybe watching their shows on their tablet, doing a puzzle, doing some kind of physical hands-on activities as opposed to screen time use, and definitely limiting that use within an hour of bedtime. Instead, use that time for a calming wind-down routine that does not include screens ideally. So a warm bath, reading a book, using red,

light if you do need light is actually more calming and much less stimulating to your circadian rhythm than other wavelengths of light. But you want to separate that use from bedtime, ideally not having a TV in your child's room for the same reason. As they get older, they become adolescents and they have a little more autonomy. That becomes a little bit different. But again, ideally you're setting up those healthy sleep habits all throughout their childhood so they understand the importance of sleep. Still having boundaries. Although they have autonomy, there should still be rules and regulations surrounding when they're using their phone, not even just for sleep, but other safety reasons.

Ideally, I've had some parents, and I love when they're able to do this, have their kids charge of their phones outside of their room. There's no TV or computer in their room, so there's no access to that technology, but really talking to your child about the importance of it in setting up healthy boundaries that inhibit them from accessing it when they otherwise would. What's up, folks, if you are enjoying this podcast, or if you care about health, performance fitness, you may really enjoy getting a whoop. That's right. You can check out whoop at whoop.com. It measures everything around sleep, recovery, strain, and you can now sign up

for free for 30 days. So you'll literally get the high performance wearable in the mail for free. You get to try it for 30 days, see whether you want to be a member. And that is just at whoop.com. Back to the guests. And what are the other things that parents of slightly older kids, say teenagers, should be looking out for for sleep? Because that is a period, especially in puberty, where sleep patterns change quite a lot. Yes. And so, again, it comes back to those expectations. One thing that I often will counsel parents is that when kids go through puberty and they hit adolescence,

there's a natural biological shift in their circadian rhythms such that they naturally get sleepy about a couple hours later on. average than they were before. This is not their fault. They're not trying necessarily trying to stay up. They're not lazy. They naturally shift the time that their melatonin is released and when they get sleepy. So it is typical for them to get sleepy later. More of the problem is how society is set up for a lot of our kids where they're still having to get up early for school or sports and things like that. And that makes a little more difficult, but not vilifying your child because they truly are not sleepy until later. A lot of, not I wouldn't say a lot. Some schools in some states have adjusted school start times for that reason, because the research is strong in showing

that kids naturally get sleepy later. Things like car accidents, poor test scores, and all those things increase when school times are earlier, so they've shifted, and then that helps kids to get a little more sleep. If that's not the case, though, you want to help your child slowly adjust their circadian rhythm, as opposed to saying, oh, well, you just need to go to sleep at 9 when they're literally not capable of doing that. So if they're falling in sleep naturally, let's say midnight, let's say a couple days you have them try to go sleep at 1145 and then 1130 and then 1115 slowly adjusting so that their bodies and their circadian rhythms can get used to the time change as opposed to having them try to fall asleep right away. Meeting children where they are.

So what I found works for me when I'm talking to adolescents about sleep is helping them understand that their sports performance will decrease if they're not getting enough sleep. They're much more likely to break bones during sports activities if they're not getting enough sleep. They're less likely to do well on tests and scoring in terms of getting into college and doing what they want to do. So having them to meet them in their world and things that are important to them when it comes to sleep can be helpful. You know, I love that. You said that because I think sometimes parents feel like they're nagging their kids about sleep and they're not tired and their friends are online playing video games and there's so much fomo around. It's like, you know,

being the square that like goes to bed earlier, you know, can't hang. And I think socially that feels important in all these things. And so helping them understand that it's not just about what you're giving up or sort of being asked to not do, but also about things that are really important to them, like athletic performance. Also makes your skin better. Exactly. Yes, that too. And I actually talked to a school, a high school student about sleeping. I'm not going to talk to them about sleep. They don't care about this.

But I found clips from people that they do care about. like LeBron James talks about how important it is that he gets his eight hours of sleep and he's so much better on the court and so much sharper. And then they're like, LeBron James, well, I guess I should sleep. These are the people that you do care about, that you want to model your behavior after. So helping them to connect to people that are important to them is also helpful. Yeah, and we did a study back in, I think, 2014 or 2015 with the MLB. And we looked at sleep patterns in professional baseball players.

and the ones who had more career longevity were sleeping more. And there's so much pressure to stay up and so many exciting things to stay up for that it's really important to balance that message with all the good things. And then also things that people don't even realize are connected to getting enough sleep, like insulin sensitivity. So it's much easier to maintain a healthy weight if you're getting enough sleep and all of those things. So you can stay up and play that video game. or invest in kind of long-term health.

And I think a lot about as a parent and as a parent who hasn't really faced these issues yet because my two-and-a-half-year-old has limited autonomy on the screen is like, you know, it's one thing to get all righteous about, oh, of course we're not going to do that. But, you know, I see I've got two godsons that are teenagers and all of their friends get on the same, you know, connected video games at night and they're all playing together. and it's their most important social interaction. And then that translates to when they show up in school the next day. And they're talking through school.

They're talking through all these things when they're playing these video games. And you don't want to socially isolate your child either. And so it's like how do you almost create the culture at the school level and how do you get buy-in across the entire friend group? So that, you know, I want you to socialize, but I want you to do it and be done by 9 p.m. Exactly. That really is a fine line to balance and to walk. And I think, again, meeting your teenager where they are and at least addressing the fact that this is important to them and not just kind of brushing it off because I think at

that age, they really want to be heard. Their friend group is one of the most important social factors in their lives. So at least addressing the fact that that is important to them, talking to them too, helping them. I always counsel parents to like come up with a plan together. Ask them what things that they can adjust and change because there's a way more buy-in when they feel like they're also helping than when they're just being told what to do. So really get their buy-in and come up with a plan together.

I love that advice. And I think, like, so often kids, like I said earlier, they're so much more capable of understanding than we sometimes give them credit. And I do think that you can empower them to be a part of that story. Yes. The other thing that I think is helpful for people to realize is that it takes like two nights of good sleep to go, oh. Yeah.

This is what was available to me. that whole time. And so I think people envision that it's going to be this horrible struggle forever because like the one time you were strict, it was a horrible struggle. But as soon as the system realizes, oh, this is, I could feel like this every day, it becomes much easier to make that choice. Absolutely. And I think for it, the same goes for adults. So many adults are sleep deprived for so long that they don't even remember what it feels like to be rested in the first place. And it's hard to seek a feeling that you don't remember. And so focusing on sleep, even for just a short time and realizing like, oh, everything is literally better when I'm well-rested,

makes it more likely that you'll continue to do that in the future. Yeah, I think that's such an important point. I think one of my funniest moments really early on at Whoop before we even had working hardware, we were talking to the Harvard men's squash team, and we were talking about sleep, and they were telling us what they were doing, and there was a paper that had just come out. So this is early 2013 that this conversation is. happening at the end of 2011, Sherry Ma at Stanford published this study where she got the Stanford men's basketball team to increase their sleep by two hours per night. So they were sleeping

like 10 hours, which was a lot. Nobody was choosing to do that. And they didn't have a single sick day that season. Their free throw percentage went up. Like they had their best season in years. There was like all these things that happened. Like it was just like a total unlock. Their GPAs went up. We should link the study in the show notes. Yeah, that's amazing. And then she had a follow-up study a couple years later. But we were talking about this study with the Harvard Men's Squash team, and nobody had told them before that they weren't getting enough sleep. And they were all kind of doing the same thing. And I think sleep is something that we normalize for ourselves.

We normalize across each other. And this is a group of Division I athletes at an academically rigorous and athletically rigorous program. So they're really burning the candle on both ends, working hard in school, working hard on their – And so they really weren't getting enough sleep. And we just challenged them. We said, here's the data from Dr. Ma's study. Try it, right? And just nobody had told them that they were bad at sleep before.

They've only been told they're great at everything, right? D1F at Harvard. And we used to, like, buy them pizza once a month to give us feedback on one. This is how we built with in the early days, some inside secret sauce. And they were like, yeah, I feel so much better. And they actually, they went on to win the championship that year. And we absolutely can't take full credit for that. But I do think that it's a factor to understand that this is important.

And because it's very easy and we're very good at adapting to imperfect situations, it's incredibly protective behavior in a lot of ways. But it does blind us to what's possible. And so I get told all the time by people like, your sleep score is so annoying because I get five hours of sleep a night and it's all I've ever needed and I just don't need more and whoops should figure that out. And I'm like, I promise you, go get seven hours for three days and tell me that that's not better. And they're like, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. And I'm like, try it. And like the people who have

taken us up on it, they're like, oh. And now they're annoyed at us because like it's inconvenient that they need to figure out where those two hours are going to come from. But, you know, I think like there's so many versions of this, right? stop eating drunk food, stop drinking alcohol, give it a week, and like tell me you don't feel better on the other side of that. Start strength training. Tell me you don't feel better. And I think like you get used to not feeling good. Yep. And that becomes your new baseline. Yeah. And, you know, for all of our sakes, it's great that we don't just feel like crap all the time because we'd be so dysfunctional. And but when you have room in your life to like explore these higher planes of

functioning, it's worth trying it. And I just, yeah, I guess I really want to leave people with that for themselves and for their kids that if you're truly this person who only needs five hours of sleep, and I honestly haven't met that person yet. But if you exist, you'll try my experiment for three days and realize you were right. And I will be the first to tell you I was wrong. But, you know, I think that it's incredible what you can unlock when you unlock it. Absolutely. And getting enough sleep makes you more efficient, more productive. And so people view it as losing time, but you're gaining productivity by spending time sleeping. It's an investment of who you want to be and how you want to show up tomorrow and so on. So people always talk like, I don't have time to sleep that much.

But like you do, most of the time when I look at people schedule, I'm like, actually, if we just rearrange these things or took a couple things out, you do. But also, you'll find that you don't need as much time to do all the other things when you're all rested because you do it so much better. I think that point is so important, right? It's that it's not just. go find this time and sacrifice and lose the time for everything else. It's that everything else is easier. Absolutely. So go make your life easier. And you'll get more life. Yes. Yes. It is very protective and longevity promoting. So switching gears just a little bit because we're whoop. I'd love to get your take on sort of the role of wearables and sleep tracking, especially for parents and kids and

how to think about that, especially as we want to respect privacy, but maybe also interested in the data. Yeah. I think it can be helpful if used appropriately, particularly for babies, infants, toddlers when they have different wake windows and you're trying to like do this mental math all that time. Like, how long have they been up? Should they be going to sleep? How long are they sleeping at night? That can be difficult in mentally taxing in and of itself. So if you have something that's tracking that for you, it just makes it a little bit easier for you to make adjustments and see what's working. I think to use it holistically to look at patterns. So when they've gone to the playground, they slept, you know, eight hours and there was less of a struggle and they fell asleep

with them this time. Really picking out those things can be helpful and can help you adjust the next steps. Not getting so caught up, especially in kids, though, in the minutiaa and wanting to have perfect sleep every time, similar for yourself, because that can create a little bit of anxiety in of itself. But I think having those numbers, taking away some of that mental strain that comes with like trying to keep up with everything yourself and using it to pick up patterns and make adjustments can be really, really helpful in ways that I don't think a lot of parents may even realize. As we wrap up, one final message to all the parents and maybe even some older teens listening to this, what do you want everybody to know? To parents, first of all, you're doing a great

job. No matter what you're doing, you did a great job. Parenting is not easy. But I understand that you deserve to sleep. Your sleep is important. Having a child does not make your sleep less important. And that one of the best things you can do for your child from a physical, developmental, and emotional standpoint is to gift them with healthy, independent sleep habits and model that for them yourself. So don't feel guilty for doing that. It's one of the best things you can do. You all deserve it and will all be healthier for it. I love, love, love your message and the wording around gifting it to your kid and then removing all guilt from the fervorizing or the sleep training and all of that. I wish we had met when I was at the beginning of this

parenting journey because everything you've shared has been incredibly helpful. For parents listening who want more of you, where can they find you? The best place is my website. The solution is sleep.com. It has ways to get in touch with me, ways to, to utilize my services. And I also say on Instagram at the sleep underscore MD, I give very bite-sized tidbits, educational pieces for the entire family to help you get better sleep. And again, in a world where there are lots of voices and lots of noise, I try to be that credible source. So either of those two places would be the best. Love that. Thank you so, so much, Dr. Holiday Bell, for being on the podcast. Thank you again for having me.

If you enjoyed this episode of the WooP podcast, please leave a rating or review. Check us out on social at Whoop at Will Ahmed. If you have a question to us answered on the podcast, email us, podcast to Whoop.com. Call us 508-44349.52. If you think about joining Whoop, you can visit whoop.com, sign up for a free 30-day trial membership. New members can use the code Will, W-I-L, to get a $60 credit on Whoop accessories when you enter the code at checkout. That's a wrap, folks. Thank you all for listening. We'll catch you next week on the podcast as always stay healthy and stay in the green