WHOOP Podcast - Kate Courtney, Mountain Bike World Champion, shares everything she’s done to reach the pinnacle of her sport.

Episode Date: April 17, 2019

Defending mountain bike world champion Kate Courtney talks about her intro to the sport (3:10) and incredible rise to the top (8:06), her love of data (11:37) and meditation (15:45), recovery as a life skill (21:52), fueling with waffles (23:57), training and functional overreaching (28:37), her nap routine (35:18), workouts in the gym (39:01) and not fearing strength on the bike (44:08), pre-bed recovery (49:48), sleep habits and environment (57:39), travel advice (1:08:54), a typical day's strain (1:10:51), and her biggest goal going forward (1:18:57).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

We discovered that there were secrets that your body was trying to tell you that could really help you optimize performance, but no one could monitor those things. And that's when we set out to build the technology that we thought could really change the world. Welcome to the WOOP podcast. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, founder and CEO of WOOP, where we are on a mission to unlock human performance. At WOOP, we measure the body 24-7 and provide analytics to our members to help improve performance. This includes strain, recovery, and sleep. Our clients range for the best professional athletes in the world, to Navy SEALs, to fitness enthusiasts, to Fortune 500 CEOs and executives.

The common thread among WOOP members is a passion to improve. What does it take to optimize performance for athletes, for humans, really anyone? We're launching a podcast to dig deeper. We'll interview experts and industry leaders across sports, data, technology, physiology, athletic achievement, you name it. My hope is that you'll leave these conversations with some new ideas and a greater passion for performance. With that in mind, I welcome you to the Whoop podcast.

I will also note to begin that in the realm of people, focusing on data, I'm like way far in the extremes. Like I love it. It's really motivating for me. I think some people think it distracts from the love of the bike, but I think for me, it's part of it. And part of what I love about cycling is the ability to focus on these things and make progress. Hello, folks. My guest today is Mountain Bike World Champion Kate Courtney. Last year, Kate won the 2018 UCI World Championships, despite being the youngest competitor in the field, just 22 years old. And she is amazing.

She turned pro in 2014 at the age of 18, but still managed to graduate from Stanford with a degree in human biology. Kate and I discuss everything she's done to reach the apex of her sport, including her love of data that led her to using whoop for the past year. I think you're going to get a lot of insights into how she uses whoop. We also talk about her training on the bike and in the gym, what her daily strain is like, how she prioritizes recovery, her love of meditation, habits that make her a self-described great sleeper.

That's right. She knows how to sleep. And the surprising piece of cooking equipment she always brings on the road with her. I had a lot of fun chatting with Kate. I think you're going to enjoy this one. Without further ado, here is Kate. Kate, welcome to the Wooop Podcast. Thank you so much. Happy to be here. So I'm really impressed with your background. You're only 23 years old and here you are winning all of these mountain biking

competitions. How'd you get into mountain biking? Yeah, so I started mountain biking when I was pretty young. I grew up close to where we're recording actually and we're in county where mountain biking was founded and just grew up kind of exploring the mountain on my bike, fell in love with it. But I actually didn't start racing until high school. So I ran cross country and did a bunch of different sports, but didn't discover that cycling could be competitive even until I was in high school. And my high school had a team, and I joined it. So you joined the mountain biking team in high school. And how many people are on it?

Like, what do you do on a weekly basis? Yeah. So I started through the high school league, which actually right now in the States, there's a huge movement. It's called the National Interscholastic Cycling Association. and they have teams across the country at high school. So that was my start in the sport. I was the only girl on a five-person team. And then I joined a local development team.

So that was a little bit bigger and gave me the chance to start racing around the nation. And later with USA Cycling, the National Federation, I got the chance to go abroad and start with World Cup racing. So what was the moment when you realized that you were good at this? Oh, that's a good question. I think it was really interesting to me. I think my love of the competitive side of mountain biking and my love of the sport in general kind of developed separately.

So I fell in love with cycling, riding with my dad as a kid on the mountain. We'd go get pancakes and be outside, and I just loved, you know, looking down and seeing how far you could go. And that side has always stayed with me. But the competitive side, I think as soon as I lined up and race that first time, It was a completely new experience for me. It was something where I felt I was challenged physically, technically, tactically, mentally, mentally mountain biking, I think is really demanding because it's both very physical, but it requires a skill and a lot of thinking and tactics. So I completely fell in love with it from the first race, I think. And were you kicking all the guys' ass on the team that you were on?

What was the moment for you where you're like, wow, I'm actually better than this, better. this than I was expecting. Yeah, I think the cool thing for me is that growing up, I was in a place where mountain picking was huge, and there were always people who were really talented. Right, that makes sense. I was on a team where the guys were really competitive, and the girls just even in my high school league were the best in the nation. So I think it was really humbling for me at the start and kept me chasing those guys

and wanting to be able to keep up with them and wanting to ride harder and harder trails. and they were always accepting and encouraging. And I think that's how I slowly started to build confidence and see little bits of progress as I kind of stayed longer and longer. It's a good point. Like if you grow up in an environment where it's considered like a good group of athletes for any sport,

if you can just stand out in that neighborhood, then all of a sudden you realize you're really good at something. I remember I grew up in a neighborhood that was really good at lacrosse because I grew up on Long Island. And so, you know, a few of my friends that were like the best lacrosse players in that group, Sure enough, went on to go play college lacrosse because, you know, it's just sort of a natural thing. But anyway, that's interesting that you grew up in this neighborhood where everyone was really good at it.

So in 2012, you're the national junior champion, age 17. You become the first American woman to win a mountain bike World Cup event in a junior category. That's kind of a big deal. How'd that make you feel? Were you just like, this is amazing? Or are you kind of like, all right, what's the next thing I can win? I think it was both. So that year, 2012, was the first year that I raced World Cups.

And one thing you'll know about mountain biking is it's way more competitive in Europe. So it started in America, but in Europe they have mountain bike high schools. And if you go to a Swiss, even a local Swiss race, there's like hundreds of kids on push bikes racing. So they just have a level of love for the sport and kind of grassroots development that we're working on but are slowly catching up again. So racing in the States for me was one step, but as soon as I started racing internationally, it was a completely different ballgame. And while I was able to take one win that year, I think it was also definitely a turning point for me because I got my butt kicked in a lot of other races. Oh, okay. And really had to learn what it would take to race with the European girls who had been kind of competing on these more technical courses and at a higher level for a lot longer.

A lot of them started when they were five or six and had been racing each other for years. And I really saw, you know, one, that there was a possibility that I was close, that I could be good at this. And I think that win was really important in seeing that potential. But also, I think more importantly, I saw how far I had to go and what types of things I needed to do to really be competitive. Now, when you describe how far you had to go, right? like breakdown for the naive listener like myself even around the sport. What are sort of the things that you're even thinking about improving in mountain biking? I assume there's ways to improve speed and ways to approve certain courses and ways to improve

technique. Like what are the sort of nitty gritty of how you improved? Oh, there's so many things. That's one of my favorite things about the sport is that there's so many opportunities to improve. And I think, you know, my motto with my coach the last few years. years has been trying to be like a diamond cut on all sides and really looking at each opportunity to maximize potential. And I think at that time, my biggest opportunities for growth were technical

skill. So in Europe, if you watch any of the Mountain Bike World Cups or, you know, any of the high-level races, there's huge rock gardens and they would build man-made drops and just really like specific technical features. They have to be able to ride. So there'll be an A-line and and a B-line, and the B-line will be a lot slower. So that was one of the biggest areas for improvement for me. And then I think overall in the sport, it is an endurance sport. So training, fitness, hours on the bike, hours in the gym. For me, yoga, mental preparation, sleep, recovery, all these things are kind of on an equal

level, and every year we identify a few to really focus on. Makes a lot of sense. And so 2014, 2015, 2016, you won the USA Cycling National Championships for your age group, so congratulations. And then more recently, 2018, you won the cross-country mountain bike world championships as the youngest competitor in the field. First American woman to win the title in 17 years. Kate, come on. Yeah, that was a pretty cool day. So from 2014-2018, what do you have?

feel like you made the leaps in? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think, you know, my nutritionist always talks to me about pounding the rock. Like, you're pounding the rock and it breaks on the 100th below, but it wasn't that one. It was all the ones before. And that's really how I try to approach my training. And I think from kind of a young age, I was really drawn to numbers and data and chasing these little bits of progress. And that's resulted in a lot of consistency. So for example, in U-23, which is 19 to 22 years old for the World Cup category, I was eighth overall, then fourth overall, then second overall, then won the overall. So it's like every year I took a little step forward. And for me to be able to take a really big step in 2018, I think was

a result of that really, really consistent progress and hard work. And also just having a great day on the bike. I think, you know, you can say what you want about how hard we work and how hard we prepare. But at the end of the day, things come together in a certain way on those special rides. And it's really magical. And it's a product of all those things and a little bit of luck and the right day and the right time. Well, let's talk about the data side. I've come to realize how much cyclists, bikers, I mean, you guys are geeks when it comes to data. And I totally respect that. But there's all sorts of different instruments and tools and then a lot of technical things related even to the bike. Let's just start with high level in the early stages of your

career. So we're talking 2012, 2013, 201714. What were you doing from a data standpoint? Okay. I will also note to begin that in the realm of people focusing on data, I'm like way far in the extremes. Like I love it. Okay. It's really motivating for me. I think some people think it distracts from the love of the bike, but I think for me it's part of it and part of What I love about cycling is the ability to focus on these things and make progress. So I've actually trained with a power meter since I was like 17, 16. So we were really early on that. And my dad actually was an analyst.

So he loves the data. Has been a huge kind of supporter in that. And it's actually kind of a fun thing we do together. We look at the numbers and strategize and have year over year over year. So for power and heart rate, obviously, you know, our little bike computers, I use a garment, they track time and distance and whatnot. So for me, having all that data year over year helps me see what areas I'm improving and where I can kind of have more room to grow. Now, with mountain biking, you're going down and up, correct? So will you also look at the slope alongside power and things of that nature?

Yeah, I think for me now, I've had an ability to race on a lot of the courses we race. So we have data from, for example... So it's looking at historical data on every course. That makes sense. That's been really a cool thing for me to see is, you know, if I race that course last year and I'm racing again this year, what can I see in that data that could help me prepare better for this event? Well, I say this all the time with WOOP, but you can only really manage what you measure.

So by looking at all that data on a course, you're obviously... identifying certain areas of weakness or strength, right? And then you want to target the weaknesses, I would think. Completely. And yeah, it's the, it's old saying that what you measure improves. And I feel that way, certainly with my data on the bike, and also with WOOP, that's been a huge, you know, way to quantify recovery that I've never had access to before. So, first of all, it's awesome that you're on WOOP. Love that you're a WOOP user. When did you hear about the product and we'll cut you on to it. Yeah. So I graduated in 2017 from college and that next year, 2018, was really huge focus for me in terms of, you know, I had time to

train. All of a sudden I didn't have to go to class. Right. And you're like, hey, this is my career too. Time to train. This is my career. I was insanely motivated and really excited to finally have the chance to focus full time on it. And when we sat down and identified ways to improve, my coach and I always kind of point out a few different things that are going to be the focus of the year and for that year it was recovery and he actually turned me on to whoop and said start using this this is what we're doing um and for me that was a huge benefit especially you know being an athlete who's motivated who now has time um you know there's only so many hours in the day there's only so much you can train and that there's a there's definitely a risk of you know everyone says overtraining um

And for me, and I think, especially with my coach, it's more of a management of under recovery. I don't really think you can over-train. I think you can under-recover. And so... Interesting. Yeah, I think it was a huge benefit that year. I was able to train so much harder than I've ever trained before, but with a new level of appreciation for all the things that go into that.

So napping every day, meditating, kind of seeing how life stress or just adding you know more activities into your day if you're constantly running around if you're constantly running errands um those things take a load on your body yeah yeah so let's walk through um a day in the life of kate so you wake up in the morning at what time 7.30 or 8 it i like give myself the half an hour if you're training extra hard yeah okay and so you get up what's the first thing you do meditate so I'm awesome and what kind of meditation practice do you do Um, it's fluctuated over the year. So for me, I've realized, like, I love meditation. I actually, I T-A. This was really helpful when I was in school. I T-A.ed a meditation course, um, every spring. And so when I was racing, I not only got to T-A this two-hour meditation course every week, which is a fantastic help to my training and racing in the spring, but I also got a lot of credits for it. So that was. So you were meditating in school. Yeah. Gosh, I think it would have made me like a way better student.

and, like, young person, I definitely would have been a little less wild. I find meditation just so incredibly beneficial in my life. Yeah, what kind of a practice do you have? I've been doing transcendental meditation for about four years now. Awesome. Yeah, and I got into it. It was kind of like this moment of crisis where I just felt like with my business and my life, and I was just strung out, you know, and so I needed to do something.

And I took a TM course for four days. which costs like a thousand dollars so there was that sunk cost thing too where i was like i just spent a silly amount of money on this you know four hour course i have to now commit to this and honestly it's the best money i've ever spent i really believe that because ever since i've just gotten a lot better i feel like at managing stress and also it it takes you out of your your own head and i think in a really healthy way i mean i'm curious what it's like for you but for me when i'm meditating most effectively, it's almost like I'm looking at myself in the third person, you know? Yeah. It gives you a perspective. It does. And then sometimes throughout the day, right, you feel

that, at least I do, where you realize you're about to say something you shouldn't say or you're about to have an emotion like, oh, Will's about to get angry. Like I actually hear myself say that before it happens, whereas before it just would have happened, you know, and then you're reacting to your own, you know, your own mistakes or your own inability to control. yourself. I completely connect with that. I think that's been one of the most interesting things. It's just a self-awareness piece. Yeah.

Where I feel like with meditation, there's this middle part where you, like, are now aware of what you're doing, but you can't quite change it yet with certain things. So I always say that to my family. I'm like, I know that I'm going to be really stressed out and I'm going to try my best. So like, you know, it's

an understanding of how your mind works and like why you might be feeling an emotion. and where it's coming from. And that's helped me a lot in racing as well. And I think, so I do back to what my practice is. I decided, you know, I was doing the, it's the mindfulness-based stress reduction,

John Cabot-Zinn class that I was doing. And I really liked that. But the length of time was really difficult. So for me, like 15 minutes a day is perfect. And I'll do it every single day. But if I try to go 20, 25, if I try to go longer, it becomes sporadic. And I can't, you know, every day,

I'll be like, well, you know, it's bad weather and I got to get out of my bike or, you know, you just, it's harder for me to do it. So I finally just said, no judgment. I'm going to do what works for me 15 minutes a day, 10 minutes a day. And that's been huge because now it's part of my routine and it's how I reset to start my day. And I think as you're saying, the biggest thing for me has been that perspective, that seeing things from a new vantage point. Totally. That allows you to understand that there's a different way to look at it. So I was telling you, I just came back from the Pan American Championships in Mexico.

Right. And it was a crazy event. It's hectic. You know, we have to drive an hour from the hotel to the venue. And it's just a really exciting but very demanding event. And thousands of fans screaming, Kate, Kate, Kate. So the fans there, it was difficult for me, to be honest. I think I'm a competitor that goes in before races.

I like to really focus. I like to have all my stuff lined up and get my perfect little preparation. in. And of course, I'm flexible and adaptable, but I think that quiet internal time is really important for me. And anytime I was at the venue, people, I couldn't stop. People would grab me, taking selfies, kids surrounding me. And I had to, like, luckily my mom and my mechanic were there, and they kind of, like, insulated me when possible. And we did signings and pictures and really tried to manage it. But it was really overwhelming. And I think for me, having time to sit with that, And in my meditation, I kind of had the realization of, like, wow, how cool is it that these people, like, know who I am, that they love cycling, which is something I love.

Like, that's something we share, that they're out here to watch this bike race. It's 85 degrees, and we're at 6,000 feet of elevation. I'm kind of cranky about being here, and they're so excited. Right, right. Standing in the sun all day, cheering me on. They knew who I was. They yelled for me in the race, even though. You know, I was a foreign competitor, and there was a Mexican racer who was also competing for the title.

So it just having that moment to sit and be like, wow, this is a frustrating, overwhelming experience. Like, I understand why I feel this way. But I also understand if I flip my vantage point, like, this is amazing fuel. Like, let's take this energy of these people. Let's appreciate this opportunity I have and use it as fuel to race as hard as I can. Well, you have an awesome attitude about it. And I think you just gave a great advertisement for meditation too, right? Because it gives you that appreciation where you can kind of get out of your own head

and your own sort of emotion in the moment and sort of realize the bigger picture. The bigger pictures that you had all these people that are like crazy obsessed with you and want to cheer for you, right? And yet in the moment it was sort of draining you, right? Absolutely. So a funny way to let it fill you up energy. And do you see like our results in your strain from that? Like you're having to run around and sign all these things?

Do you feel like your heart was elevated or did you get used to it? Yeah. No, I think it definitely, like that's one of the most helpful things I think about Woop is for me. I think recovery is a life skill. You know, in that moment, I could be completely losing energy, panicking, thinking that I'm not prepared for the race. Or I could say, okay, this is a little different than what I normally do, but I'm okay. I'm going to allot this amount of time. Then we're going to get this at the hotel and I'm going to put my legs up and it's going to be fine.

And theoretically, the strain score for both of those would be the same. But the way that you look at it is so different. And in a lot of ways, I think Woop has helped me be a little less paranoid about my preparation. I think, you know, obviously I attend to every detail I can before a race. Sure. But then the added stress and anxiety isn't really a benefit. Yeah, totally not. And if you have something that's telling you, like, no, it's okay.

Like, you're getting sleep. No, it's okay. your strain scores are normal like right you know that's really helpful and of course you know your body can do anything so i've woken up before actually i've had like you know really bad recovery days on a day when i actually perform really well and that's sometimes that just happens it's sometimes it happens you know their data isn't a hundred percent perfect and predictable but more often than not i think i see a trend of um you know performing a little better than i thought i would you know when whoops says you've got a higher recovery yeah like being like oh actually

actually, you know, I spent an extra 20 minutes at the venue. It did not triple my strain score. Right. You know, it was not as big of a blip on the radar. And it encourages me to then focus on the life skill of managing all these things, keeping the stress low before a race, and really keeping up with the little habits that I think do kind of add up to help my recovery. So the meditation, taking a nap, having that. Let's talk about your napping practice.

So first way, we got to go back. So you've woken up, you've now meditated. Okay, meditated. Do you eat? I eat food. I love to eat food. Food is fuel for what I do. It's a really good benefit of being a cyclist.

You really do get to fuel your ride. So usually I have waffles before a hard ride. Thank you. Good for you. Very keto of you. Well, it's complex carbohydrates. Look, I think some of this diet stuff is just, you know, it's gone too far. Right?

Like you need carbs to fuel your. your body. And if you're going to be burning like 5,000 calories a day on a bike, you need carbs. At least that's my point of view on it. Another huge piece of recovery. I don't claim to be a nutritionist for the record. Everyone take everything we're saying as facts. Go eat waffles. Only eat waffles for the rest of your life. No, I think for me, that's also been a huge realization is I think, you know, we were talking about the start of my career and all these little gains that I've made and the biggest things now are really managing what's going to allow me to train as hard as I can, be recovered, be happy, and, you know, be fueled so that I can do it

all over again. Yeah. And the nutrition has been a big part of that, sleep, napping. So you eat waffles, and then how soon are you out and exercising? Usually about an hour. I think I'm, I think it's a whole time to digest. But that's not a lot of time. Yeah, maybe an hour.

If I got on a bike an hour after eating waffles, I think I would be suboptimal. I don't know. It's a slow start to it. We kind of get a warm up. Okay, you ease into it. Yeah. All right. Good for you.

That's, I think you've got a fast metabolism for the record. I think I do. Okay, so now you're on a bike, right? And how close do you live to where you're training or? Yeah, so I just go right out the door, which is a really phenomenal thing for me. I think it has been a big. And you'll do it with your coach. right there or um no mostly mostly solo yeah so i do some group rides um there's one group ride

that i do pretty often on wednesday that's been really cool and has a lot of local pro road women on it oh that's cool unfortunately all are now racing and living in gerona so i'm missing my group ride but uh but i do that ride and then a lot of my training is just really structured and um alone so i'll go maybe i'll have hill intervals one day and i'll do warm up go do the intervals on the hill um get home and how will you know what what is done right this was something i used to struggle with when i was training as a college athlete and it's in part what inspired me to start whoop is that i didn't know when to stop and i would just go and go and go until i was exhausted and you know for a long period of time that would get you fitter but eventually i would

just fall off a cliff no pun intended and and yeah and so that's where i got really interested in recovery. How do you know when you're doing too much to your body? But for you, like, how do you think about that? I mean, that's a really good point. I think for me, it's been a process of learning what I'm capable of. And I switched two years ago, I guess this is my third season with my coach Jim Miller. And he's incredibly talented. And he also pushes his athletes. And I think for me sometimes being able to have someone overseeing my training and telling me like, this is a day you're going to need to push.

And just going and accepting the plan and rising to the challenge has been really important. I don't love being out there being like, should I keep going? Should I not? Right. You just have to accept the plan.

Yeah. And it's adjustable. And I think we work a lot based on how I'm feeling and how the ride's going. And I know for my numbers, whether it's a good day or a bad day or what kind of situation we're in, So what numbers will you look at during or after a workout to say, okay, like, I've hit the right amount?

Is it distance traveled? Is it your whoop strain? Is it like your power? So it's primarily power for me and time. So I have, I ride my bike seven days a week, sometimes twice a day. And I'm in the gym three days a week as well. So mostly, it's a lot of training. But mostly for the riding segments, it's, you know, I have a prescribed workout.

So the workout might be go ride for two hours at around this power or on a really key day. And those are the workouts that we really focus on, that recovery is really important to prepare for those days. Those will usually be an interval day. And a lot of times simulate kind of a race situation. So like go do this climb at this power and do it seven times or something. So it's easier. I would say that's something that I don't have to worry about as much in my training. In terms of like when I wake up, I have a plan, I go execute it unless something's wrong.

But I think as I've evolved as an athlete, the communication with my coach and the understanding of like, okay, I can see my recovery scores. He has access to my whoop and sees everything that's happening. So he'll look at that data and adjust it on the fly too. Yeah. I think it's just a, it requires a complete picture. So I do, I have trained hard on days when I'm in the red. I think that's something that I actually always say to people when they're asking me about whoop and like if I'm in the like can I only work out if I'm in the green and for me sometimes my coach and I will like make the decision that we're pushing as hard as I can go yeah and that you can only do that with the understanding that you will recover at some point you need to recover at a point but it's kind of a you know partnership in managing my fatigue because he can't completely estimate you know. am I stressed out? Do I have a lot going on? And so that gives him one tool, who helps him see, you know, he can see if I'm not sleeping well or if something's starting to show a crack during a training block. Like, you don't just go from crushing it to not being good at all in one day. You kind of, you start not sleeping as well. You're not recovering between workouts and you slowly degrade. So understanding that process and knowing the balance between pushing and getting as much as we possibly can out of me.

but also making sure that we're managing fatigue and that we have a long-term strategy. Well, you just made a really good point about whoop recovery because I get asked this all the time, like when I'm in the red, should I not work out? And the answer isn't yes. Like, you know, the answer is you can work out. The thing to keep in mind is that over a long period of time or even a short period of time, you've got an event coming up, like if you've got the Pan-Anne games on Saturday and you're red on Wednesday, you don't want to go hard on Wednesday, right?

Absolutely not. But if your goal for a three-month period of time is just to get as fit as possible, you can overdo it on a few days, knowing that at some point that recovery needs to catch back up, right? And so it sounds like that's how you've thought about it. Yeah, I think it's really cool to have that long-term vision. And that's why I've now been using Loop for two years. Oh, awesome. So having an understanding of how that data's evolved and year over year,

what it looks like when I'm in the fall. You know, in the fall, there's times when I'm training so hard, and I just know I'm going to get so run down, and that's my job at that point. And then when I get a week off, my job is to recover, like, nobody's business. Have you ever redlined on whoop, like, three or four days in a row in the red? Maybe like two, two to three. Okay. Two is probably the most.

Honestly, I think my body bounces back pretty quickly, and that's been another really... Well, it sounds like your training is really effective. I mean, that's a sign that you're training. training effectively. Yeah, it's been really interesting to see. So every year I do this really silly training block called the Kate Epic. It evolved from, so it evolved from two years ago. I race the Cape Epic, and that is the hardest mountain bike stage race in the world.

It's eight days in South African desert climate. Cape C-A-P-E. Yeah, Cape Epic. So it starts in Cape Town. And it's known as one of the biggest physical challenges you can do. four or five hours a day. It's a partner race. My partner was the world champion and defender defending winner. So I knew that was going to be hard. And this is a man or a woman? A woman. Okay, great. So it's a team of two women. It was a really cool experience. But going into it,

I was pretty nervous. And so we started with the Kate Epic, which was me at home. We trained. We did an eight-day training block where I did 35 hours and did a couple races and group rides and tried to really push that limit so that when I went to the Cape Epic, I knew, okay, I can survive on my bicycle for this long. Like physically, I guess I can do it. It's like, it's like running 22 miles before you go run a marathon. You're like, okay, well, theoretically now, hopefully my body is ready. But yeah, that's become an annual thing now. And that's been my biggest kind of light bulb moment in terms of understanding recovery, understanding pushing your body. Because a lot of times, I'll stay green for a few days and eventually by the end I get to the red and then you have like this bounce back and I'll go back to the orange and I'm like wow like good job body like I thought that I would be done by today but I'm getting that one last day out and then oftentimes the last two days of that seven or eight day block end up being some of my best and you finish feeling really good and I think you know that needs to be managed but mentally understanding that like you're not you don't

don't know where your limit is, is the coolest thing as an athlete, and I think is a huge asset as you go into racing. Well, it sounds like you've built, like, an amazing understanding of your body. And at a really young age, I would say, like, I think that a lot of the things that you're talking about are things that I find athletes talk about in their 30s. Like, it's just, it's one of those things where it takes people more time to realize how important this is. And for you, I think it also helps that you're in a sport that is so dependent.

dependent on your body being like dialed, you know, because you're, you're looking at all this data and you're really understanding it. Let's go back for a second. So you've now, we're slowly getting through my day. You're slowly getting through your day. Yeah. So, okay, so you've now done your first workout of the day. You just did biking the mountain. And what now? So it depends how hard that workout was. If it was a really hard workout, it will probably be lunch. Take a nap. What kind of lunch are we doing? More waffles?

Of any kind of variety of things. I think I usually have like a go-to and then I eat it for a couple weeks and then I get tired of it and go to something else. Right now it's kind of like a sweet potato, carrot, broccoli, veggie, stir-fry, some eggs over it is probably. Maybe some kale. Do you eat meat? I do eat meat. Yeah. So I typically, I'll usually have like eggs and maybe some like chicken sausage after.

a workout in my kind of veggie meal and then and usually some carbs as well if it's a hard workout so add maybe rice or quinoff if it was a really big day but then at night I'll usually have my bigger kind of serving of protein and then you'll typically go back out in the afternoon so it depends on how hard the workout was so usually a nap in there and then and how long do you like to nap for as long as I can really no it's not that crazy but uh so you'll eat and then you'll transition to nap yeah so usually i'll eat and nap um somewhere in there it it varies a little bit depending on how the weather was so during the winter uh i used to try to get home and stretch right away and i'd be wet and cold and and i realized

like it was worse for my recovery um so now i try to eat and kind of relax for a minute and get that kind of parasympathetic nervous system going relax and then i do my post ride stretching and napping and that recovery stuff. And, I mean, if I'm exhausted, maybe I'll nap and then stretch. But I think for me having those like pillars, like I have the habits that I do and they can kind of be stacked in different ways. That's smart. And for you and taking a nap, do you take anything to fall asleep or you just pass out?

I should put on my little sleep mask and sleep. I would say that's, I'm a good sleeper. It's something I've worked on. Something you've learned from whoop. Yeah, you got to sleep. And what kind of a sleep mask do you use? Right now I have a really random one that we got when we were in South Africa for that trip. It was like, yeah, buy them in airports, can never have too many.

I like the sleep mask. I've gotten into it. Do you have a specific one? Well, I try a lot of different things just by virtue of my job. And right now, I'm forgetting the brand name, but it's like a bigger operation. It's not, you know, one of those little pieces of paper, so to speak, that just soaked, it just goes over your face. It's got, like, goggles, so to speak, that go. It's serious.

Yeah, it's intense. It's intense. I still haven't found one that I love, you know. I would say that generally speaking, I think sleep masks are great. Yeah. Broadly speaking, I like the whole concept. I just, I'm pretty finicky with products and industrial design and stuff. So it's, I don't feel like someone's made a great one.

I'm with you on that. If we could get into sleep masks. That would be great for me. Yeah, to be continued. It's so hard to find the right. I had this experience. I forgot mine on the way to Mexico, and my mom was traveling with me. And we went to like five places.

I was like, no, that one won't work for me. She's like, what are you looking for in a sleep mask? And it's hard to find the right one. Yeah, anyone listening to this, if you have an awesome sleep mask, please let us know. I will definitely buy it. I'll send one to Kate as well. We'll both wear it. No, I think the sleep mask is great.

I mean, design aside, anything about your post nap routine? Like, do you just pop right up, take a shower, no shower, go right on the mountain? I usually have showered before I naped. So maybe I'm not giving as detailed about it. Well, no, I figured you shower it after working out. Yes, exactly. But I'm someone who likes to, like, literally, anytime I wake up from anywhere, even if I'm late for something, I have to shower. Wow.

It just gets me going. I'm not, I am not one of those people, but I respect it. Maybe I should, maybe I should take my showers. It's my transition into the world. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I think the nap transition is something I'm maybe still mastering. I think when I have an afternoon workout, it's pretty easy because I get up.

I maybe have a snack at this point because it's been a few hours and then go to the gym or go to yoga, depending on how hard the day was. And then if I have a second ride, I can go do that. But if I don't have a second workout or if I'm just doing yoga or kind of have more of a recovery afternoon. Let's pick the most intense day. If it's a super intense day, what are you doing? I'm going to the gym. So you're going to gym. What do you like to do in the gym?

Yeah, I do a lot of stuff in the gym. I love that part of my training. And I think I'm a little unique in that. I think it's starting to become bigger in mountain biking. But I felt early on, you know, I'm a little bit of a more petite rider and having the strength to control the and having the stamina in my upper body strength was something that I saw I could improve in the gym. And it's also just nice to have something different.

Totally. You know, I think setting the goal of like, I really want to be able to do a bunch of pull-ups or I really want to be able to jump on a higher box. Yeah. It's so different than the goals I've been setting for years and years and years of upping this power number or doing this hill faster or winning this race. It kind of gets your mind in a different zone. And that's been really cool for me.

and within the gym are you doing a lot of weightlifting it sounds like you're doing some body weight stuff obviously pull-ups talk a little bit more about what you're doing the gym yeah so I have a really awesome strength coach who works with the US ski team the Norik team and they're super creative so I think we spend a lot of time honestly on injury prevention and mobility and my warm-ups about 45 minutes so so I feel like I go to the gym and I crawl around on the ground for 45 minutes and then I like lift you to Hexbar. So deadlifting. Yeah, deadlifting squats are kind of the main things for mountain biking. A lot of like plios, a lot of jumping. We actually, we've done a lot of stair jumping this year. So that's been very trendy. And then, you know, at the end of it, I think for me, a lot of core, stability,

upper body, balance and coordination. So I'll have like a set routine that my strength coach provides, but she also gives time at the end where she was like, play, do something that feels like mountain biking. And we kind of, like, I'll stand on a bounce ball and flip weights or throw a ball at the wall or stand on the end of board or do something where it feels like I'm on handlebars and I'm bouncing. And I think that's been really cool for me to, you know, be able to learn from people around me and incorporate these cool ideas and be creative in a way that makes it fun. So like, ooh, I wonder if I could flip this kettlebell and catch it. True story. Did drop it on the

ground a few times but um just don't chop it on your foot this is there we go it's not always the safest but uh but i try to try to be as safe as i can um but yeah i think being able to push in those different ways is really cool and um i think it challenges your brain and that's something that i think people underestimate in cycling and in sports in general is that when you're learning something new like it is a different neurological experience totally and it helps you yeah i think You're absolutely right. I think the process also of getting better at things is positive in other aspects of your life, right? Like, just the fact that you're improving at weightlifting gives you more confidence in your mountain biking world.

Absolutely. Like, I think that's a real phenomenon, let alone the fact that obviously you're getting stronger, which is going to help your career. But also just feeling strong. Like, I think that's something to, that goes beyond the weightlifting and includes the nutrition piece and the sleep piece. It's when you wake up and you feel really strong and you feel really capable and you pull up to that start line and you know, oh, I've done all these things to like make my body and my mind as strong as I can, that's a really good feeling. And I think each of these little things, even playing in the gym and being like, oh, I can flip this weight while I'm standing on this thing, may not be the core of my training. I mean, it's definitely not the core of my training, but it adds to that sense of confidence and that sense of strength. I feel like in the last maybe five years, but it could even be less than that.

There's just been a huge growth to women lifting weights, right? Maybe it ties with what's going on in society right now around female empowerment, but to me it seems like women are really gravitating more to weightlifting. Do you feel the same way? Absolutely. I think one of my biggest heroes in sports in general has been Lindsay Vaughn. Oh, cool. Ever since I was little, I watched her race and just thought she was such a badass.

But I think even more recently, you know, as I've been kind of a young female athlete figuring out all these different things, nutrition, I think is a really hard one for female athletes, weightlifting, just all these challenging kind of places where you want to improve and you want to be healthy and you want to do the right thing. Lindsay Vaughn's been a huge inspiration to follow and she promotes that idea of just like working your ass off. And I think she posts all these videos in the gym, and she's so strong. And I think seeing that, but also seeing the response to it, which is, I think, society, by and large, all the Instagram comments, everything I see is, wow, you're so strong, that's amazing. And then, you know, really paying attention to her race results and really connecting that hard work and that strength with the results has been a huge positive message for me. And hopefully I can continue to pass that on. Yeah, I'm sure you are. I mean, for you, like, is there, I mean, you talked about the challenge of it.

Is there, do you feel like some kind of a societal fear of getting strong, like that is now being overcome by women in sports? I think it's complex for that. And I wrote something about this a long time ago about, like, fueling for something like cycling. And in a lot of these sports, like weight and your physique matters a lot. And I think that's really challenging, especially as you're growing and developing. Like, you need strength. Like, I think that's the biggest thing I've learned is the more that I fuel my body, the more that I build strength, the harder I can work and the harder I can train.

And that's something that, you know, in the past, I think with cyclists, there's some, you know, camps where people are just, like, getting really thin. And that's been, like, a look. There's really thin cyclists who are really fast and they can climb hills fast. But I think to have longevity in the sport to be strong, to be careful, to be careful. capable and to be able to reach your potential over a long period of time, you have to have that core strength and that core kind of nutrition that allows you to be a peak performer and lean out when you need to, but in a way that's really healthy and that maximize your

potential instead of kind of leaving you dangling and possibly falling off a cliff in terms of fitness and health. Well, I read about this tour de France. cyclist and maybe you know who I'm talking about but there's this guy and I'm unfortunately blanking on his name who intentionally atrophied like his whole upper half like the top half of his body has virtually no muscle like when you look at him he's just two legs like literally it's two legs and a skeleton and I was reading about that I was like gosh that is so crazy and it was very intentional like he doesn't lift anything grocery bags you want yeah I'm not kidding uh and his point of view is that he wanted to have no muscle in his upper body because he felt like

it was just going to take away from his cycling performance. Now, cycling's a little different from mountain biking, but, I mean, what's your reaction to that? Does that sound totally crazy to you? It sounds pretty crazy to me, but I do understand, like, I think it's the balance of understanding, you know, weight and muscle kind of makeup. Those are things that affect performance, just like the weight of the bike and, you know, your strength up a climb. Those are aspects of performance, but they need to be kept in perspective and put in place. And a healthy rider is a fast rider. In my opinion, a happy rider is a fast rider.

And in my sport in mountain biking, you have to be strong. Like, I think it is very different and the kind of needs are different for road cycling and mountain cycling. But at the end of the day, for me, I think it's keeping that one thing in perspective. and that's what I really appreciate about the female athletes that I've looked up to now is I'm not going to say that weight doesn't matter at all, and an athlete should eat whatever they want and do whatever they want. You know, we spend our whole lives dedicated to optimizing this thing.

Of course, we should be putting the right fuel in our bodies, and when you have a huge championship event, that's certainly something I pay attention to. But it's the way that you treat it and the way that you approach it as this is an aspect of performance. But the most important thing is that I'm healthy and strong and competing at the level I need to be. And then this is just one more thing to tweak in the way that works for you and in a way that's nuanced and not just saying, okay, well, that rider was really skinny. So that's the one thing that I need to do to be successful. Yeah, and maybe it works for him.

I just found it fascinating that it was so out there. Okay. So you've now finished weightlifting. Where is your day headed? So after that, I'd probably head home, pick up some groceries. Do you like to cook for yourself? I do. I love cooking.

Good for you. It's really cool for me to be able to, again, like, kind of, you know, make sure I'm putting really healthy, yummy, awesome things in my body. And cooking them is the easiest way to control what you're eating. And I think it also makes me appreciate what I'm eating. True. What do you like to have for dinner? Usually some kind of meat, so like salmon or chicken and roasted vegetables. and salad, and then maybe sweet potato or rice for carbs.

So it kind of depends. I feel like I mix and match based on what I did that day and my nutritional needs. Sweet potatoes are apparently one of the best carbs. They're one of the most delicious things. I mean, you've mentioned them a few times, so I want to call them out. You're calling me out on one of my, this is my food podium. Like sweet potatoes, avocados, dark chocolate are my main thing. Now, do you think dark chocolate has performance benefits or do you think that it just tastes

good. It absolutely has deliciousness benefits. That's important. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I think some of those things I mean, some people literally claim that chocolate has, particularly dark chocolate, has performance benefits. Anti-inflammatories. Yeah. A bunch of antioxidants. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah. I don't know. I think, yeah, for me, it's like what makes you feel good and what do you like eating? And then, you know, I work with a nutritionist pretty closely. And we, he's been really great about making sure I get enough fuel. I think that's actually the most important thing as a cyclist for me at this time in my training

is just being like, am I getting enough protein and fat, like making sure that my body has the fuel it needs to meet the demands that I'm putting on it. And now, I mean, we're in the evening, right? In the evening. What's your pre-bed routine? Yeah, I'm a pretty big creature of habit in that. So usually in the evenings, I'll have some time to relax. you know, put the legs up, do normatech boots, foam roll, stretching out.

How often will you normatech? Norma tech for those listening is like leggings that push air through them in order to massage you in an intelligent way. Yes. That's a very great description of Noratax. Was it? Okay. Yes, good job. All right, go ahead. But yeah, so I kind of have a bunch of different things that I do for recovery and it depends on how I'm feeling and what I might need, but also how much time I have. I think Norma text for me are really easy to do at night if you're reading or watching TV. And will you do them every day? Will you do them only if you're sore? Will you do them if you're not sore? Kind of roughly every day. Okay. There's definitely days I skip. I think for me, I always prioritize sleep. So if for some reason I had a really long day and I just want to go to

bed, I'm not going to stay up late to like do the Norma tax or stay up late to foam roll. I think that's something that I've matured into is not feeling like you have to tick every single box every single day. Right. Because sometimes that actually works against you. Right. And being able to understand when these tools are useful. So, okay, so Norma Tech, and you like to do it for what did you say 30 minutes?

Yeah, 34, 5 minutes. Okay. And will you ever use those? The theragon. Yeah. I have one of those, too. I'll use the theragon, which doesn't take as long, too. But, yeah, I would say I don't do all of these things every day, but I have them available, which is really awesome for me.

And they're great tools. Well, it's something that you do that you think most people don't. Ooh, like in life? Not biking. No, I'm talking about it in recovery. In recovery. I would say naps are the biggest thing. And I think it's like meditation.

It's the thing that you know is good for you. You want to do. You feel good after you do it. But it's so hard to do for some reason. And that's been my experience with napping is a lot of times after a hard workout, you're just spent mentally and physically. And you kind of are trying to, like, get yourself to go and take this nap. And while it sounds luxurious, like, when you're that tired, it's sometimes hard to even, like, get yourself to do that. And you want to just, like, sit and look at Instagram and feel terrible.

So being really diligent about getting that rest time and forcing myself, like, sit, set the timer, and I always fall asleep once I get to that point. Now, you mentioned Instagram. You strike me as someone who would have a healthy relationship with your phone, but describe it. You just made a funny face, so we'll see. I try my best. It's something that I actively try to manage. I think I learned this year, Instagram for me is, I feel mixed about it. I think it's something that I spend too much time on, quite frankly, but that it also brings

so many magical things to me, which is, like, if I had to spend two hours on Instagram and I get one message from a little girl who says, hey, you really inspired me to ride my bike. Like, I was wondering if you have any tips on climbing a big mountain. Like, that's the best thing that could ever happen to me. And as an athlete, it gives me meaning, it gives me purpose. It makes me feel that the thing that I'm dedicating myself to has value and is impacting people. And I think that's a perspective that I really never want to lose. But I also think there's an unhealthy side of it.

and, you know, scrolling through, looking at other people's stuff and just kind of wasting time on it is something that I'm trying to move away from. Yeah, it's a very interesting product just in terms of the connectivity of it. I mean, it's a fascinating moment in time and that you can literally find any person in the world practically and see what they're up to in their life or, you know, at least the best versions of their life. and for super successful athletes like yourself who've built up these huge fan bases, I wonder like how you manage it because it pulls you in two directions, right? You just described it. On one hand, it's rewarding because it's, you know, you're talking directly to your fans and they're responding and they're excited and they're liking all your content.

But on the other side, it's, I mean, it's fundamentally a distraction, I think, from anything positive right like it's it's just pulling you into this wormhole that's separating you from the rest of the world and for someone who's like so focused on training and being present i don't know i can just imagine it's a hard balance for you yeah no you've definitely you've hit on it i think it's something i have to be um pretty honest with myself about and check in about um because there is that half that's so positive for me um and i get to share i think also i get to share this journey like I'm working hard all year I'm working on things all year

and I share the process of doing that and then when I have a result for example at World Championships I remember all these people messaging me being like this was amazing to follow you working so hard this year I'm so glad I got to be a part of this Yeah that's crazy

And it's like for those people to feel that they were a part of that win is like the coolest thing for me because honestly they are Like I have a job because people care about mountain biking Hopefully everyone watch mountain biking. But yeah, no, that's why I get to do this and I feel honored to be able to. And so that's the positive side. But yeah, the distraction side is something that I need to check

in and be like, am I on Instagram right now because it's positive and I'm interacting with these people and it's work or am I on it right now because I'm tired or I'm distracted or I'm overwhelmed. And I think a lot of times, you know, paying attention to what makes you pull out your phone has been a good learning experience for me. Like sometimes when I'm just in an overwhelming situation, you're like, oh, this is something that I can manage and look at. You know, and that, like, it makes you wonder what the world was like when people didn't just pull out their phone when they were awkwardly sitting somewhere. You know, people probably talk to each other. And so in those moments, I've actively tried to be like, okay, I don't

need to do anything on my phone right now? Like, I'm sitting here. Like, do I just want to stay here? Do I want to talk to this person? Like, is there something else that I can do? to improve the situation that isn't going to be so negative. Well, what you just described is the voice of someone who meditates because that is like a very third person view of yourself about to pick up a phone. And I think, I mean, a lot of people struggle at that. I think it's a fact.

Now, other things on your phone pull you in. I mean, hopefully you look at the whoop app from time to time. I definitely look at the whoop app. I look at my training numbers on training peaks. It's the kind of tracks all of my training. Hey, shout out TrainingPeaks. We recently did an integration with Training Peaks. So if you want to push your data to TrainingPeaks.

I would just like to say that this is my dream. And from day one, I was like emailing support at Woof like, can we get an integration with TrainingPeaks? Yes, so you can now do that. And my coach actually works at TrainingPeaks. So it all comes full circle for me. This is great integration. But, but yeah.

It's still in its, by the way, it's still in its early stages, a bit of a beta. But we've seen a great response from Whoop users who are using. it so yeah excited i am yeah um but yeah so i look at that and what else i mean email but really yeah i think um the social media stuff is what's most most draws me in on my phone and so that's that's the part that i need to be aware of now are you conscious of uh of like putting your phone away a certain time before bed or anything like that or will you be looking at the minute up to the minute before you fall asleep so i and that was the year that we identified recovery and i got my loop that was a huge thing is I've kind of changed my habits around my sleep time.

Nice. Let's do it. Yeah. So we just moved. So I'm still working on getting this set up in our new place. But I don't sleep with my phone in the room. I sleep with, I actually got like an Amazon Alexa, because it's, you know, each of these habits, I was like, okay, well, I don't want my phone in the room, but then how do I set my alarm? And then how do I meditate? And how do I do all these things? So I ended up getting that. And I can say, like, I set the alarm before I go to sleep, say, Alexa, wake me up at 8 a.m. And then when I wake up, I can say, Alexa, like, open headspace and start a meditation,

and they start, like, the daily 10-minute meditation, which has been really cool, and it makes me do it. Because if you wake up in your bed and your phone's in the other room and you want to meditate, like, you'll just sit there and do it. You know, you're not going to, like, reach for it and then see an email, and then realize you have to do something and need to write something down and get up. And do you wake up to an alarm or you just wake up on your own? I wake up to an alarm. Okay, but like an old-fashioned one.

Yeah, well, it's Alexa. Oh, it's the Alexa, sorry. Yeah, this was all part of, it felt so silly when I did this. I was like, I'm changing my sleep habits, and I ordered all these things. I ordered my sleep mask. I have earplugs of all these things. I order my Amazon Alexa, and I got to say it worked. So I get in a bad, I set my alarm.

I write in a gratitude journal every night, so that's been something I've done for like five years. So it's really easy. I write three things that I'm grateful for from the day. What would be examples of those that you can share? Yeah, no, they're really, I mean, they're not rocket science. I'll be like, I am grateful for recording this amazing podcast with Whoop this morning. It was a really cool experience, and we got to talk a lot about a lot of things that matter to me. Okay, great.

That would be one thing. And so it's usually, like, it's also like kind of a journal, but I would, I need more kind of more structure than. just like journaling so i think the three things i'm grateful for it it always takes a few minutes so i'll actually do it and um it does just kind of like prime your brain to look for positives yeah it's another thing that i don't do that but i know a lot of people do and they speak really highly of it i kind of want to do it so i might get into it okay yeah i recommend it and your format is just three bullets effectively yeah date three bullets date three bullets so easy but you'll find like i think the biggest thing for me about that is I'm definitely a creature of habit. You'll probably

notice that for my little daily schedule, but things that I do every day, I'll do every day. Things that I do sometimes, I forget to do. And so, you know, coaling these habits down into like a simple thing that I'll do every day and that impacts me, I'll keep doing it. And it really becomes a habit versus something that I have to think about. And on my worst days, Like, I will, like, have a bad day. I pull out my graditude journal. Like, okay, I'm right in the stupid gratitude journal. And you finally come up with something.

You're like, fine, I had a good breakfast, I guess. And then all of a sudden, you start to realize all of these things that happen in your day. And more importantly, all these people that contributed to your day. So maybe like, oh, well, actually, I did talk to my mom and she was so great earlier. And that was so nice. Or, oh, man, you know, I passed, like, it was rainy on my ride, but I passed this person and, like, they said hi and blah, blah, blah. So it can even be these tiny things. Tiny, tiny things.

But when you start to realize that, like you run out of space on the page. Like that happens to me all the time. We're like, oh, shoot, that other thing happened. That was really awesome. Or, oh, that person did that really nice thing for me that you just forget because the days are pretty long. Well, I mean, yeah, that to me just seems like a super healthy practice. So, okay, so you've now written three things in your gratitude journal. Yeah?

What now? Read a book. Read a book. What do you like to read? A lot of things. I think I read kind of random stuff sometimes. I like reading psychology books. Interesting.

Or like my fun books a lot of times will be like autobiographies or biographies of athletes and just interesting, like high performing people. What's the most interesting book you've read on a high performer recently? On a high performer recently. Or it can be your favorite. My favorite book. Oh, this is so hard. One of your favorites.

One of my favorite books. I love Malcolm Gladwell. I love like Outliers, Blank, all those books. I just find fascinating. I'm actually going to a dinner with him soon. I'm excited. Okay, we'll tell him. I'm a big fan.

Yeah, I'll tell him. I'm a big fan. Yeah, so I love those books. And I think for me, I just read, the book I just finished on the plane on the way here was called Let Your Mind Run. And that was about like the mental side of running. Oh, interesting. And it's just, I find that, especially when I'm in season and I'm racing, I just love hearing about like people's journeys and And it'll be in random sports.

Last year I was like read about Ronda Rousey and like MMA. This year I'm randomly reading a lot about Formula One and like high performers in Formula One and reading Jensen Button's book right now. So there's there's really random things that strike my interest. But I think hearing about people pursuing excellence at anything, it doesn't have to be sports even, always draws me in. How experimental are you? Like if you read in a book that Rhonda Rousey likes to wear socks to bed because it makes her fall asleep faster. Like, will you just throw that in all of a sudden? Or, you know, and that's a very, but that's the kind of example.

Got to wear socks to bed. No, I think it's hard to discern sometimes what you should be like learning for other people and whatnot. I think I've gotten a lot better about that over time. And also, you have to remind yourself that like it's all pretty good right now. Like, your progression as an athlete is very linear. Knock on wood. Yeah. But, yeah, no, I think it's more mental for me.

I think I take ideas more than I take actual. Yeah, literal tactics. Literal things. I think occasionally there'll be something that I'll be like, oh, this is kind of an interesting idea. But it's usually not something that I'm like, oh, they did this and therefore that's why they were successful. It's more about, like, the way they approach their career or I think, I'll get an example. Yeah, I find very rarely it's this thing made them successful. but I like this idea of you try to steal a little bit from here and there

and eventually you build up all these interesting. A good example is I read Ronda Rousey's book at the start of the World Cup season and then I went up to altitude camp. And in the book, she goes to fight camp. And like in MMA fighting, they kind of have these periods where they're not really training hard and then they'll go to like a six-week fight camp and then they go to their battle. I know this is ridiculous. But for me, like, I read this book and I like was going up to Tahoe.

And so finally, I was like, this is my fight camp. Like, we are going to fight camp. And so that's how we talked about it the whole time. It was my fight camp. My coach knew it was my fight camp. And I think it was cool to have something, like, just have a word that even reminded me, like, this is my focus time. Like, I'm going to turn into an animal at this fight camp and be ready to go for the next World Cup. And it sounded ridiculous, but it mentally really helped me, you know, section off that time as like, okay, I'm,

going there alone i'm not gonna you know i'm gonna eat exactly perfectly or i'm gonna train as hard as i can and and be really focused for this time i like that a lot now uh okay so now you're going to bed yeah uh cold room warm room uh natural light dark light i like it very dark and i like to have a million pillows but other than that i'm actually i'm a pretty good sleeper i'm pretty much like Head hits a pillow, I'm out. Boom. Sleep latency of zero. Yes.

Unwoop. No sleep lost. Yeah. No. But yeah, I do fall asleep really easily, which is nice. How much REM and slow wave sleep do you find you get at a night? Oh, that's a good question. Like hours-wise?

I should go look at it. I think it varies. I think I wake up feeling the most rested when I get a lot of deep sleep. Like there's a lot of times where I get like an hour of deep sleep and I wake up feeling amazing. Yeah. even if I didn't sleep as long overall. But yeah, I haven't, I think I don't lose that much sleep.

Right. So you're a very efficient sleeper. I'm a pretty efficient sleeper. Efficiency is like the amount of time you spend in bed actually translating to sleep. So I think I lose like 30 minutes usually. And you're spending eight hours in bed roughly? Like nine. Nine hours of bed.

So that's actually really good. Because typically what we see is after about seven and a half hours, it becomes harder to maintain a high sleep efficiency. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So the fact that you're getting eight and a half hours of sleep, spending nine hours in bed, that's like, yeah, that's restorative. I really do my best.

It's something I, I mean, I think I'm lucky. Like, I always slept really well, but I also, those habits and kind of prioritize it helps. Yeah, but a lot of it's not luck, too. I mean, all the habits that you're describing, if you take someone who right now is listening to this and they're not a great sleeper, And they just introduced half the things that we talked about. I guarantee you that person's going to sleep better. I guarantee you.

Gratitude Journal, put your phone away, learn to meditate, exercise once a day. Hell, you do it twice a day. You're definitely going to sleep better. Good. Yeah. So take half of those things. Yeah. I would say also nutrition for me is good.

I forgot to mention my other two pre-bedtime routine things that are absolutely pillars. We need to know. My family will attest. I take like a magnesium. Do you know the natural vitality calm stuff? That I make into like tea. So I always have something warm before I go to bed. Okay.

That I really like. And then I also, there's been a bunch of studies about weight protein helping you recover overnight. So I have a little bit of Greek yogurt. I have like a Greek yogurt problem. But I eat Greek yogurt. So every night you have Greek yogurt? Yeah, just a little bit. And it actually serves a lot of purposes for me because I think having that,

little check-in and having my Greek yogurt. Greek yogurt probably like that. I know. It's like I need a Greek yogurt sponsorship. So if anyone... If you're listening to this and you have access to Greek yogurt sponsored. My boyfriend the other day came on with... I was like, can you get some Greek yogurt?

And he's like, I literally bought it yesterday. And I was like, I ate it. I don't know what to say. I'm sorry. But, yeah, I think I sometimes put chocolate chips in them or like put little sliced almonds, make it kind of an almost desserty thing. And that's also another opportunity for me if I didn't feel like I got enough fuel in the day. So if I didn't quite hit my fat or protein numbers that you can add a scoop of almond butter to that or kind of check in, make sure that you meet those numbers and have your little bedtime snack.

And I think actually when traveling, that's been really huge. Because, you know, if you have a bunch of days where you don't get enough fuel, that can be really detrimental. And when you travel, what are some of your tricks to staying recovered? Yeah, I think just planning, you know, just making sure if there are things you know you need, bring them. And make sure you have them. Good advice, literally. I bring my waffle maker with me to races. Wow.

Yes. So I have a mini waffle maker that comes with me in the States. And then I think, yeah, kind of at the beginning of the season, we'll buy one in Europe. So it has the adapter. And I will always have waffles. There we go. So, okay, so you've got your waffles, you're prepared. If you're taking a flight over a few time zones, are you someone who likes to try to get on the time that you're at,

or are you someone who likes to stay on the previous time zone that you were in? Yeah, I think that's another place where you're planning and also just like experience helps a lot. I think everyone's different. So for me, usually taking a later flight to Europe, I sleep on the plane really well. usually making sure that I don't just like stay up and watch movies that I do, like get that sleep, arrive and usually ride and then you're tired from traveling and then I can go to sleep that night. And for me, hitting that first night in Europe is the biggest thing. Like having a good night sleep that first night makes a big difference. So I don't take naps when I get there.

I just try to be tired for that and adjust. But I think also, you know, it's a lot about knowing your body and knowing what works for you and also appreciating that if you're on a plane and you're sleeping, you're doing the best you can with recovery and just kind of accepting it and not being super paranoid and stressed out because... Well, not being stressed alone is massive for recovery. Exactly. And it's really hard to sleep when you're like very stressed and you hear a noise and you're like, oh, everything is conspiring against me.

So I can't sleep. Well, you wouldn't put that in your gratitude journal. No, exactly. On the whoop side of things, what does your strain look like on a daily basis? Yeah, I think my average strain right now is like 18 or like 17.5. That's high. So it's pretty high. And if you think about the distribution of a week, like will you mostly have green recoveries, mostly yellow?

I think it depends a little bit on the time of year. Mostly I'd say green and yellow. I don't have red recoveries that often. And then once I'm in season, I rarely have them, other than maybe from travel. But I think, you know, we're doing less hard workouts right before a World Cup. As you're saying, you're not, if you're, if you're yellow. So some concept of tapering, right? Yeah, exactly.

The strain measurement, it was one of the biggest things that, like, I wish I had in college because I was thinking about how I used to over-trained the days leading up to a game because you get excited and all of a sudden you can't quite feel the stress that you're putting on your body. If you think about strain, so you typically average 18 a day. If you think about the strain that you put on your body two days or a day before an event, what does that look like on whoop? More like 14, 15. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's a balance.

As you're saying, you get excited, you feel good, you're rested. And also you need to do, for me, you need to open her. So I can't just really, really chill before the race. I need to make sure my body's primed. The engine's ready to go. Yeah. But usually I think the bigger thing is understanding what goes around that preparation. So for me, making sure that I go to the venue or the venue, I ride on the course, I do my preparation, and then it's like a race.

Like how fast can I get back to the hotel room and get my legs up? And if you have that mindset, you'll do it. You'll just go home. But if you're not thinking about it, you get sucked in. You're excited to be at the race. You see all your friends. You're standing around in the sun. And those are things that wouldn't show up on my power meter because I'm not riding, but would show up on my whoop if I spent all day at the venue or, you know, forgot a bunch of things and then had to run a bunch of variants that day.

Those things are things that contribute to the overall weight of that day. Yeah, they totally accumulate stress on your body that otherwise you might not think of. Like I think that there's such a point of view for a lot of athletes that exercise is the only time that they're putting stress on their body, right? And you're talking about all these other aspects in your day, which is why at WOOP, we've thought of strain through the lens of daily strain, not just an activity strain, which we also measure. So an activity strain being like the workout, but what are all those other little things throughout the day? Yeah, I think that's been the biggest asset for me, you know, because of the nature of data and cycling, like I have pretty good measures of what I'm doing on the bike. But before Woop, I had no way to quantify those other things. And as you're saying, you know, you never know when it's enough.

And as an athlete, that's so hard, especially when you're really wanting to make the jump to the top level or you are there and want to stay there and you have time to do things. And you're saying, should I go to Pilates and stretch and go to the gym and do this? And a lot of times what I'll see is like, if I get back from a ride and my whoops course 20.5, I should probably just chill for probably the whole day. And that's been a hard mental thing for me Because basically it means that I'm using a complete day's worth of energy in less than a day Right You know it's like about energy management not necessarily time Like for me time is not the scarcest resource in terms of training

Like you know someone who goes to a 9 to 5 they have their work is dispersed Like they're working a whole day For me I feel like I use that amount of energy in a four hour really hard bike ride and then I still have the rest of the day. And so learning that, okay, you've done your job. Like your job for the day. Yeah, chill. That part is done.

The job for the afternoon is the recovery side. And, like, thinking of that as the next piece. So if you're going to relax or chill out, do you have any guilty pleasures? I would say my biggest, like, luxurious thing is we've had a string of rainy days here in California. And so I'll train outside. it's cold, I get back, and I'll make my recovery drink, and I'll go drink it in the hot tub. And that is, I'm like, I'm recovered. I'm better now.

I'm fixed. So that's my like. Do you do anything with hot cold? I have tried. So I used to do like ice bath a little bit, and the research on that is quite mixed. As people probably know, it's quite mixed. But the hot cold, hot cold, hot cold, I really like. And now I have access to a hot tub.

So I've done cold bath, hot tub back. It doesn't feel awesome. but it works I think there's something to be said for doing things that just improve your mood too and there's no question that going hot cold hot cold improves your mood like I've gotten really into

spending like 10 minutes in a sauna and then doing as cold a shower as I possibly can stand in for probably about as long as I can stand in it and then going back into the sauna and then back into the cold and I feel euphoric afterwards honestly euphoric.

Yeah. And it just, I mean, intuitively it makes sense. Like your body, when you go somewhere that's really hot or really cold, like your body flushes your system with blood. It's saying when you get really cold, it's saying like, ah, let's, you know, maintain our limbs here. And then also, you know, draws it back to your core. And I just think that kind of like blood flow is positive and helps you feel really fresh when you get moving again. For people listening, what are some other resources that you recommend for learning more about performance, Or if people want to better understand mountain biking. Mountain biking. So if you want to watch our bike races, they stream all of them on Red Bull TV. So that's, they're super exciting. They're only about an hour and a half. And I promise you, in the women's field, in particular, it is very competitive right now.

So very exciting. Has anyone ever, like, intentionally hit you with their bike or anything, like, kind of like that? You know, I would say people are pretty good, especially, like, I think at the front of the field. I think it gets a little more dodgy at the back. at the front of the field people like really have respect and we all know each other like you're going to be racing me every race so if you yeah you know if you did something that was not cool uh you know that in the future if you wanted to like pass me or something like it would be harder what goes around comes around yeah and i don't think there is a lot of that like i think just the knowing that you're going to be racing these people and also like having respect for your competitors like i think we all work really really hard and we're more alike than different Now, I'm reading here that you're a big fan of melatonin. I do like, I take melatonin. Now, do you take that with magnesium when you sleep?

So they have a con, they have a version of that that has melatonin in it, which I use sometimes for traveling. I actually don't use melaton at home. I mostly save it for traveling or racing trips because it does make me feel like I sleep a little better. So it's like almost like a safety blanket when you're traveling and you're like, oh, I hope I'm not jet lagged. Okay, I took my melatonin.

I'll be great now. Right. And then, of course, it's not like a sleeping pill, but it helps with that. Now, I'm also reading that you're gluten-free. I am. So the waffles are actually gluten-free. Well, that's a pretty important distinction. I'm not sponsored by them, but I love, they have really good. We'll include the brand in the show notes.

I'm sure someone's going to buy them. Okay. And what's the lowest recovery you've had on Woop and why? When was the lowest recovery? Like girls' night out kind of thing? Maybe like 20%. Honestly, I'm not that cool. No, you're focused.

That's what you are. I definitely, if I have that low of recovery score, I brought it upon myself. Yeah. From training very hard. But yeah, I think it was like 20%, 17% might be low. And it was just from training. Just from training. You're a healthy person.

I do my best. Plans to compete in the 2020 Olympics? I hope so. I'm doing my absolute best to qualify. It's been my big goal for a long time. Well, I believe in you. I think you're going to make it. Where can people find you online?

Yeah. So my Instagram's Kate Plus Fate, and my website's just katechorny.com. I think those are probably the easiest ways. All right. We'll include those in the show notes. Anything else you want to cover or plug? I think we're good. I don't know.

All right. Thanks so much for coming on, Kate. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks to Kate for coming on the podcast. We are expecting big things from her again in 2019. If you're not already a member, you can join the Whoop community now

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For our European customers, the code is Will Ahmed E-U. Just tag E-U on the end of my name, and that'll get you 30 euros off when you join. Check out whoop.com slash the locker for show notes and more, including links to relevant topics from our conversation. You can subscribe, rate, and review the Whoop podcast on iTunes, Google, Spotify, or wherever you've found this podcast. We'd love to hear your feedback. You can find me online at Will Ahmed and follow at Whoop on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. You can also email The Locker at Whoop.com with any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions. For our current members, we've got a lot of new gear in the Whoop store.

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