WHOOP Podcast - Learning to Thrive: Resilience expert Dr. Mollie Marti talks mental health and wellbeing

Episode Date: May 11, 2022

Resilience expert Dr. Mollie Marti shares practical ways that you can go about building your mental resilience and improving your emotional wellbeing. She joins WHOOP VP of Performance Kristen Holmes to discuss what mental resilience is (6:32), the THRIVE model for building resilience (8:38), the importance of relationships (9:10), our core needs as humans (11:32), practicing realistic optimism (15:22), awareness (20:52), accepting what you can't control (21:44), negative thoughts and using sensory resets (24:21), physiological health and mental health (29:42), utilizing resets for your body (39:03), and stress, rest, and recovery (41:21).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

What's up, folks? Welcome back to the WOOP podcast, where we sit down with the best of the best. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, founder and CEO of WOOP, and we're still on a mission to unlock human performance. As a reminder, you can get 15% off a WOOP membership if you use the code Will. That's WI-L. Comes with the brand new WOOP 4.0, which is now shipping on demand. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and so we're continuing our podcast series on mental health. We had a great guest last week, Michael Phelps, household name, who you can find at whoop.com slash locker or wherever you listen to podcasts to catch that episode.

Michael spent a lot of the conversation discussing his own mental health challenges, and that's pretty damn inspiring coming from one of the greatest athletes of all time. For this week's episode, Whoop VP of Performance, Kristen Holmes, is back, and she sits down with resilience expert, Dr. Molly Marty. This podcast focuses on practical ways that you can go about building your mental resilience and improving your emotional well-being. Dr. Marty has spent much of her career helping people and communities affected by trauma and loss and has dedicated a significant portion of her efforts to helping young people

prepare for life's challenges. Before transitioning to that important work, Dr. Marty was a performance psychologist working with Olympians and other high-level athletes. Kristen and Dr. Marty discuss what resilience is and how it plays a key role in our mental health, how physiological health and mental health intersect, the importance of relationships and why they're the number one predictor of resilience, our core needs as human beings, and how understanding them can improve our toolbox for life, how to manage stress and rest, and Dr. Marty explains her thrive model for resilience.

resiliency, thrive standing for trusted relationships, high expectations, resilience skills, involvement, vision, and enrichment. That sounds like a pretty damn good list. Okay, without further ado, here are Kristen Holmes and Dr. Molly Marty. Dr. Molly Marty is a psychologist, researcher, lawyer, humanitarian, and parent. She is the founding CEO of World Maker International. Her research has looked at the factors driving group norms of hope, help seeking, and resilience. She is also the author of two leadership books, and she has developed the

Thrive Resilience Model, used globally in community trauma, recovery, military health, workplace, mental health, and school-based resilience. Molly, we go way back to our days at the University of Iowa. It's so wonderful to have you here today. Thank you. It's always a joy to be in your presence. And every time I'm with you, Kristen, I learned something. And I'm looking forward to finding out what I learned today. And I think these conversations that WOOP is hosting are so important right now with the pandemic and the fallout. Even if you're dedicated to your peak performance and you're dedicated to learning and growing, we all have had missteps along the way. There's a lot going on. And so I'm just really excited for this conversation. Well, when we met at the University of

Iowa, you were pursuing your PhD in psychology. But at the time, your work was really focused on examining the interconnectedness of our psychology and physiology and what those connections really mean for human performance. And it was, you know, at the time, totally innovative way of thinking about human performance. And I just feel so fortunate that our paths crossed because it, I mean, it totally changed the trajectory of my life in so many profound ways and really inform everything I do today, that kind of foundation and platform that you created. And, you know, I just, the fact that I was able to kind of join your mission at the time and really help in developing some of these performance education frameworks, specifically in athletic settings, was just really wonderful. So, you know, I suppose those were kind of your roots.

You know, how did you evolve from, you know, working with elite athletic performers and, you know, teaching at the university and psychology, you know, to kind of what you're doing today at World Maker? Yeah, I did not go looking to be the executive of a nonprofit. it really came knocking at my door in the community where my husband and I were raising our three children. We had three teens who died by suicide within six months' times. The last two were just two weeks apart, and we had more attempts. We had more kids going to the hospital. And so having to just continue to tell my kids what was going on as we got those calls from the school and seeing what was needed at the school, it just really laid itself on my heart. And so I made a decision to take one year, a step back from my work and volunteer for a year to help

stop that loss of life and to create these multiple layers of safety nets. I thought that I could use my performance psych work. And I also knew that I had a lot to learn and a lot to teach. This is kind of how I breathe as an educator. So I looked around the world at where we could learn and I settled on the Israel Trauma Coalition, who's done years of work in trauma and resilience. and we took a team over there and did a deep dive into this area and just continued to learn more about the impacts of trauma and resilience. You know, I really thought, and in many ways when we worked together, I thought that was resilience, and it was.

And yet, you know, I was working with the top 1, 2, 3% of performers. It was much more peak performance. And when you are looking at equipping people that get up every day in their own communities and they're dedicated to making a difference, right? these teachers or these mental health providers or human resources, right? All of these people. And so I really have made it my life's mission to continue to do that research but get tools in their hands so that they can do a better job of what they are dedicated to doing.

So maybe, you know, we can just dig into just defining resilience and maybe you knew kind of indicated that, you know, resilience in its kind of earlier form as you were studying it wasn't really resilience in some way. So maybe just talk about where you saw that separation occur and how do folks think about resilience just generally. Yeah, I mean, you know, now I would say resilience is not a solo sport. And, you know, when I worked with athletes, it also, we would look at teams and culture and leadership top down. So all of those are very much part of the work that I continue to do. So we define resilience as the capacity to prepare for, adapt to and grow through adversity. That word capacity is really important. It's not just an ability or

something you have or not. It can be grown. It's based on a skill set that you can learn and need to practice. And there is that possibility of thriving. There is that possibility of post-traumatic growth. There is that possibility of coming through even great adversities, lost trauma, in ways that our lives are more meaningful. We have newer or deeper perspectives. We have greater strengths in some ways. And so it's a pretty broad definition. How do you advise folks to think about loss? And how is that different at a community level versus an individual level? And maybe how do they blend together? Yeah, I think it's important to distinguish between trauma and loss. And loss is a process and then to normalize and support healthy grieving. There's a process

that follows loss. And we don't want to rush in and I've seen some communities or people do this, we don't want to rush in after a loss and do measurements for PTSD, right? Because there is this natural process that we need to tend to. And we really look at kind of that long arc of loss and how that unfolds over time and can be supported. But I think that, you know, certainly the United States, Western societies, we really don't normalize and support loss and grief and growth as a normal process of being human. But what you were saying about, you know, how that can clarify, I think that, you know, loss is, is often an invitation to not only say, who am I, you know, what impacts me all that, but who do I want to be? You know, that self-ideal

piece, it really can shine a light on that. So maybe we can talk about the model that you developed, so the Thrive Resilience model. You know, how is this really creating a a framework for helping folks understand how I adapt and really understand these really difficult and potentially traumatic situations? Yeah, so the Thrive model, I started with six relationship-based capacities and then grew into adding five individual practices. So it's kind of the Thrive and the Spex. So Thrive stands, it's an acronym, be scientists like our acronyms or educators.

So Thrive is an acronym for trusted relationships. high expectations, resilience, leadership, involvement, vision, and enrichment. And so starting with trusted relationships, relationships are the number one predictor of resilience. And I think that's something that I didn't fully understand what I was working solely in peak performance. And so we do a lot around helping people, it's called the science of mattering as we teach it, helping people understand that their life has significance and that they're cared for. One piece of mattering I really love in the assessment of mattering, it's the extent to which people think about you when you're not there. And so I've started this

practice and you can communicate it with no shame, no guilt, but if someone isn't going to be at a meeting or a function or, you know, they have something to communicate understanding, I really, I understand and yet I want you to know we're going to be less without you. And so, to communicate that, so that can kind of grease the wheels of those relationships. And then the area of trust, building trust, is really interesting, too, because there's a different process in early trust, and you really build initial trust by being there, by showing up. It's the frequency of encounters. And then over time, it's supported and developed through care and concern and also reliability and competence. I don't want to get caught up in, well,

only be on tea and our hour will be done. So high expectations is about using challenge for growth and really meeting people where they are and not just communicating expectations, but providing that support. Resilience leadership is about understanding our core shared human needs. And that is a piece I'd love to dig into a bit more. Just for high expectations, you just mentioned challenge. Do you want to just double tap on kind of challenge versus threat and some of the neurobiology that's happening there. I think people need to understand what's actually, what is that difference and what is actually happening physiologically and in the brain that actually impacts how we respond

to a specific situation. Yeah. Yeah. So let's kind of put high expectations and resilience leadership together because that's, you know, the core of understanding that we have these human needs. And one of those needs, the primary need is safety. And that's both physical safety and psychological safety. But let's talk about these four needs and how they come together. So we have a need to feel safe. We have a need for belonging. I talked a bit about mattering, right? We need to feel seen and accepted and affirmed. We're tribal beings or social beings. We have a need for competence, right? That sense of control and agency and to be able to grow mastery. And then we have a need for purpose and that need for meaning and a positive expectation for the future hope.

So we just really hone in on these four needs and we look at the flip sides. And so you're looking at that flip side of that need of safety and that's threat. If your need is violated, you're going to feel threatened. If your need for belonging is violated, you're going to feel isolated. If your need for competence isn't met, you're going to feel powerless. And if your need for purpose isn't met, you're going to feel useless. When human beings are left feeling this way, when we're left feeling threatened, isolated, powerless, useless, it will erode resilience. It will erode well-being.

And so we do a lot of work on helping people understand that you have these needs, I have these needs, we all have. These are shared human needs. And so getting those needs met in ourselves, but then also looking at what's, going on with other people and not reacting to the behaviors that get triggered when these needs aren't met because we will try to get these needs met and that can come at us in various ways, not reacting when someone is expressing frustration or anger or not getting upset when you're like, I've told you so many times, don't do that. Knock it off. It's not acceptable. You know, why are you doing that? Instead of reacting to the behaviors to go under that and get curious

And like, what need is being expressed here and how might I help meet it? So I think that's an important kind of foundation for that consideration of threat versus challenge. In the Whoop Journal, we actually track these core needs and how essential they are to, you know, when they're not met, it's going to have a direct impact on our physiology. And just understanding, again, this connection, I think, is really important. So we really encourage people to reflect, you know, what is my feeling of purpose? Do I have a sense of control? Do I have a sense of effort? Do I have a sense of efficacy, what is my, you know, feelings of belonging? And I think maybe just talk briefly about the power of connecting to that and reflecting on it daily and how that actually builds resilience.

Perceived resources must be higher than perceived demands. And if they flip and those demands are higher, so we have our resources, we have what we have for social support, our knowledge, our skills, our tools. And then we have the demands, what's being required of us, expected of us. Do we think that we have what it takes? And then that word perceives really important because we can do two things. We can bolster our resources and we also can work on our perceptions. And that's where coping skills come in and that framing and certainly emotion regulation skills. And we'll go back to the skills specifically and get really tactical there on the resilient skills. Anything that you want to kind of talk about in terms of just enrichment and vision, kind of the final kind

of two aspects to the Thrive model? Vision, we're really focusing on values-based direction. We're focusing on goal setting, and we're focusing on hope and that positive expectation for the future. What's like one exercise that you would recommend? You know, what do you think is kind of the one that really seems to cement that feeling of just like, gosh, all right, I feel really positive about the future. I feel like I have more clear on my identity, more clear on how I want to move around

in this world. you know, what's the kind of that one exercise that you feel like is like the one that's that we could offer our members to like help them think about this? You know, I think realistic optimism. I think that as a mindset is helpful because if you're pessimistic, you're not even going to engage in that process of looking to the future. If you're overly optimistic, you do engage the study show that you engage, but you peter out because when those challenges hit, you just thought you didn't expect, you didn't plan for them. And so that realistic, optimistic and so, yeah, this is going to be tough, you know, that whole glass half full,

glass half empty, there's a half a glass of water. And it's going to empty. And when it empties, I'm going to find a way to refill it. And to take that approach, I think, can be really, well, we know from the research. That's a very success mindset. Oftentimes, you know, this kind of emphasis on, you know, remaining positive can actually lead people to respond poorly to failure. And may even actually contribute to conditions of depression. So maybe just talk a little bit more about just the difference, because I think we're always, we're just told, be positive, you know, and you can kind of talk yourself and do a better future, but we know that that actually creates a lot of anxiety in people. So what is actually the best way to kind of approach the

healthiest possible mindset? Yeah, and this is Marty Sullivan's work from UPenn, and it's called Realistic Optimism. And so you do need to have that realistic piece. You engage in the goal setting. When I think of a hope, I look at the P's. And so it is that possibility thinking. So that's where it starts. And then it's pathways. And it's not just one pathway, but pathways because you're going to need plan B and C. And what does that look like?

And then perseverance skills. And so how do you keep moving when you hit those roadblocks? Because we will hit those roadblocks. And then people, right, don't forget the fourth P. And that's, again, where that social support comes in. So that's how I kind of frame up hope building and goal accomplishment with that process. Yeah, I remember one of the very first exercises I did with you when we were working with some of the teams at University of Iowa was writing your own obituary.

That to me, I mean, I remember it to this day, what that whole process, how uncomfortable it actually made me feel and kind of how far away I was from being that person that I aspired to be. And I think doing that as a younger person, I mean, I think you should do it yearly. You know, I do it yearly as kind of part of my year-end review and kind of as I'm thinking about the new year. But I find that to be a really powerful exercise to just, all right, what is my identity? Who am I actually in this world? But who do I aspire to be?

And how do I close that gap? Yeah, that can really work for a lot of people. Another, you know, if that doesn't work for you, for one of our listeners, another way that you can approach that, too, is through celebration. So think about your 75th birthday party and in clarity who is going to be there. And then you have them give toasts and what are they going to say as they toast that glass to you? And I remember our team when we were doing this and then one of our younger members of the team when we were putting that one of our workbooks because we give, you know, different exercises. And she's like, wow, I just had a vision of your 75th birthday party, Molly.

going to be really fun. Oh, that's so cute. I like that. I love that. Yeah, but it's another one, right? All of those people that you impact and to be thinking of them coming back and having that moment where they, you know, thank you, where they hold up a mirror to that. And I don't think we do that enough, you know, that we don't hold up that mirror for

ourselves. But that self-ideal is really what we're talking about. You know, we talk about the self-concept and self-esteem and self-expectancy, right, all of that, but that self-concept is really made up of how we see ourselves and how we think others see us in the now and then also in the future. And that future point, I think, and I said this way, you know, 20 years ago or 15 whenever we were working together, right? I think it is the most underrated, underutilized piece of this, you know, whether you call it values-based direction or you call it vision. It's powerful to be creating that self-ideal in a way that

that it's living and breathing and it's truly a North Star in your life. All right. And enrichment, you know, thanks for kind of hanging on vision there for a second. I think that's like just such an important piece and just wanted some tangible folks can take away. But enrichment. Yeah. So enrichment is, like I said, when we, you know, prepare for adapt to and grow through,

that growth piece is enrichment, that just even that concept that we can use challenges and even loss, trauma. We can use these great adversity. in life for growth, for finding our way through in a new and different way. You talk about an invitation, a global pandemic. There's really an invitation that has come to our door. And so I think normalizing this concept and providing support for that process is more essential now than ever.

Let's talk about skills. So kind of the specs part of kind of the broader model. And we can start with awareness. This is obviously, I think probably the most important. entry point, and that's probably why you have it first. But, you know, kind of getting a baseline understanding where you sit, I think, both psychologically and physiologically, once you understand that baseline, you kind of understand where the pathways for improvement potentially are or where you might be thinking about a situation incorrectly. Like, just talk a little bit about

how you think about that piece specifically and what we can take away from that. Yeah, I mean, it's difficult, if not impossible, to change something that we're not aware of, right? So we can't be transforming behaviors and thoughts if we don't even know they're there. So it is essential, and you referenced earlier, you know, why is it so important that we do this work daily, that we, that we have a process that we go inward and that we are noticing, you know, what's going on. But it can be really powerful for people to use whatever tools to create a little more space between them and their thoughts, them and their emotions, them and their sensations, and to realize that they aren't their thoughts. And so that's that self-awareness piece, is creating that space and really. realizing that you have a lot of power, you know, ability to choose and to control certain aspects. And you don't have any ability around others, right? I think that that's also important.

I think we create a lot of stress for ourselves when we're trying to control things that are not within our sphere of control. And so the way that I think of that, you know, is kind of asking questions. And I frame it up as involvement, influence, or interaction. So taking the pandemic, you know, can I choose to participate or not? Do I get to choose to be involved or not for the most part? It's no, here it is, right? And so if that answer is yes, then own it and explore what that looks like. But if it's a no, move on as quickly as you can to that next level.

And it's okay to say, I don't like this. I wish it wasn't happening. I wouldn't wish it on anyone else, right? It doesn't mean you can never say anything bad about it, right? Process it in your way, but process it as quickly. as you can, so you can move on to the next, and that's influence. You know, can I shape some, can I shape this or can I shape some aspects of it? Again, with the pandemic, most of us don't have a lot of say over certainly the virus and how it is going to unfold, but even mass mandates

and travel. But there are aspects that I'm sure we all can have a say over in our families or our workplaces or, you know, what that looks like. And then even if that answers no, like, nope, I just, I don't have any ability to shape this. Then how do I interact? And that answer is always yes, right? We each have that ability to choose our focus and where we put our attention and our behaviors and our attitude. And so, you know, maybe that's, you know, where we hone in. But I think that can help when you're doing that self-awareness to really figure out what is your level of interacting and truly embrace that. And let me just ask a question on that. Like I, you know, I always say like 90% of my thoughts are like total nonsense.

But it wasn't until I actually did the kind of internal work to be able to actually be more mindful of my thoughts that I recognize that my thoughts were nonsense. What are some tactical things that they can do to just be more aware of the thoughts and understand which ones do we hold on to? Which one do we not hold on to? And maybe it is around, okay, can I control this? Can I not control this? And the things that I can't control, I throw away. That's kind of how I view it. I try not to fantasize or ruminate or hypothesize about stuff that might be happening in the future.

Like, I really try to throw all those away and just focus on the stuff that is immediate as here now as possible and things that I can control. Any thoughts around just that process? Because I think it's really important. Again, if we start awareness being, again, you can't begin to transform anything if you don't understand where you're actually at. Yeah, there's two places I'd like to intersect with that. One is the rumination and one are these negative thoughts. It's easy to do it, right? You get in those circles, you go round and around. You're overwhelmed. You're focusing on things that either happened in the past or haven't happened yet in the future. And so to do a brain reset on that, what I recommend is using sensory input. And what's most effective is either visual or audio. If you're doing audio, close your eyes, right? So if I just do sensory reset, I would close my eyes and then just pick up a sound in my environment. Maybe it's a hum. the refrigerator or something with the equipment, something that's steady here, not a car that

just drove by, right, but something steady in my environment. Or if I do visual, you know, I look at a piece of art, it's not just all of that art, but I hone in to where I'm looking at, you know, a leaf on the tree, right? I'm looking at these trees here. I'm not just taking in the sky and the trees and all that, but hone in with such focus that I'm taking it in as if I, you know, I'm just going to describe it in great detail to someone. If you do that 30 to 60 seconds, I think you're going to find and be surprised how short of attention span that you can do that. This is a skill. And I did something like this in our performance cycle, right?

So, but if you hone in and then the key is to have it set up of what you want to be moving into. So, for example, if I have a sort of writer's block, as I call it, right? And I just start to get in my head and, oh, this is horrible and it's not going to work and I'm not getting aware of it. So then the key would be as soon as I come back out, right, as soon as I start to take in more senses, I know, okay, I'm there, and then step into that task. And so I would just start clicking away of what's coming through my writing, right? You want to step into where you're going. If you find you've been experiencing a lot of negativity, then maybe you want a tablet and a pen

next to you and you just step into writing a list of 10 things you're grateful for or a couple thank you notes. And so you shift from that sensory reset to, I'm going to write, you know, who comes first to mine, I'm going to just tell them how much I appreciate them and write that. And so you're really greasing the wheels on that. And then you also, you know, you talked about these negative thoughts. And I go to Marty Sullivan's work again. We call it the three piece, right? But scanning, like being aware of those thoughts and then scanning to see if they're personal, if they're pervasive and they're permanent. And if you're telling a story that this is about I, I, I, I, you know,

or it's an attribute of me versus no, it's something that happened, you know, and it's separate and get that space. If you're telling yourself that I not only, you know, suck at that my whole life is a mess. Like, I not just bungle that activity, but nothing's working for me. Right. So you start to make that pervasive and you're using those words, nothing and always, that can be a really strong invitation to be pulling it back. And then that permanent, you know, not only did I bungle this, but I'm never, you know, going to figure this out or, you know, this is going to

just impact the rest of my life. And so that can really be helpful to run the three keys filter, personal, pervasive, and permanent. And to bring yourself back to go, no, today's setback is today's setback. And I'm going to learn from it and turn the page. All right, let's talk a little bit about self-regulation. For my point of view, it's physiology generally first. I think we can access resilience much better if we have a nice foundation in terms of how we manage our physiology, how we think about our sleep behavior and kind of within that, what's her exposure to light and to nature and, you know, what's the timing of that, you know, feeding windows and exercise timing and sleep wake timing. You know, some of these kind of circadian behaviors, I think, impact our ability

to regulate our emotions and our thoughts and our perceptions and things like that. So I I'd love to kind of talk about how do you think about self-regulation more broadly inside this model. You know, what are you bringing to folks in terms of thinking about the physiology as a gateway toward resilience? Yeah, I mean, sleep is, we all agree, right, is that number one, you know, of moving you around and either increasing your capacity to be processing what's coming at you or not. And nutrition, hydration, you know, this is kind of getting into, you know, the wellness piece as well. Right. So the big ones are the slate, nutrition, hydration, and movement. But also looking high on my list, social connection. You mentioned time and nature. You know, that's really important. Creativity and play, learning, you know, and then also looking at financial health, spiritual practices. So all of these things, I mean, taking really a holistic approach. But the reality is you can't take, okay, here's 10 things that I know are really important and I'm going to do them all, right? So you have to prioritize and start to get strategies and routines. around that, and then you can continue to build. You know, I'm in agreement with that, that physiological is a really powerful and important place to be starting and getting that

as that foundation piece. And just maybe talk about that in the context of just impulse control and some of the things that we're trying to manage and regulate, despite kind of some of our hardwired tendencies. Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to some of those foundational pieces we've talked about that if you're not attending to your physiological health, then your resources are going like this. And then if you had those demands, the space between those, you know, is going to be an area where you're going to see certainly mental health impacts and you're going to need some coping skills.

You're more likely to perceive things as threat. I think there's this process where you can really learn how to protect your space. There's a lot of research that goes into this, but I've kind of created this acronym of D, C, B, A. And I do that opposite of the ABCD because we're really pulling back into our self, our power, our space. I see that a lot of people are taking on stuff that is not theirs to take on. And that stuff in 21st century life is coming at us more and more quickly. And so what I would say about emotion regulation and understanding that window of tolerance and staying within it,

the first thing I do is I create distance and I use physical distance so let me talk through this because this strategy would look different if I'm sitting at a conference table and we're in a meeting there's things I would do and then if I'm at I'm at home or I'm on the phone or you really want to practice it full out and then you can create these shortcuts and heuristics so the first is distance so ideally I'm standing up I'm taking a step back I'm creating that physical distance which will support the psychological distance. You know, if I'm here, you're not even going to notice if I just lean back a little, right? So you can do that very subtly.

But the first is create some distance. The second is to center yourself. It's really effective. Palms are very healing, hand on the heart, you know, from heart mass work and coherence, the hand on the heart, or it also can be very effective to touch your belly area, which is easier. If you're a conference table, I can have one hand on my belly and one hand here and nobody, you know, is annoying. If you create a triangle around your navel area, that can really help you center. If I'm alone, I might do some swaying.

That rocking motion, we know, is very soothing to settle down the stress response system. So distance, center, breathe, you know, an effective breath, you know, long in, short in, sigh, right? And so that breath work. And then the A is anchoring, anchoring your space. And I call this not my stuff, right? And so that's when you're anchoring in yourself. And when I'm alone, I might just say, not my stuff. Or, you know, it's not like, you know, it's not like this sucks for you.

And, you know, back to, you know, but it's sending it back with, you know, love and you have your path and I have mine. And that's not my path. And I actually started to create this tool, my emotion regulation tool. And I use it, you know, you know, I go into communities after suicides and shootings and natural disasters. and a lot of trauma and loss and grief. And I can't do the work that I am being called to do and what I'm capable of doing if I'm regulated when I'm taking on other people's stuff.

And this really came to me early on in this work. It was the year I was doing the community resilience work. We had lost kids and we had dinner and my son was running late. He was running cross country. Got a call. The bus was running late and so he wasn't going to be home for dinner. and so we ate and the girls and my husband excused themselves and in nate's plate was still

sitting there and i'm sitting there and and i just i took on all of this grief of my friend who had lost her son by suicide and i thought she's going to have this empty plate at her table for the rest of her life like she has an empty plate life and i was just awashed in this grief and being taking on and i don't know grace i had a moment where it was It was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, stop, this isn't yours. This isn't yours, right? What is yours? You are mothering these three kids. You are helping that mother through her grief. You're helping this community. You're a wife to, right? What is yours? And if you keep taking on other people's stuff, you're going to be less at what is yours. And so I did this dive into the research. I'm like, I need tools to

not take on. And so that's my not my stuff, piece of emotion regulation. Wow. I mean, that was just a master class in energy management. I mean, that's effectively kind of what we're all tasked with across the day is figuring out, okay, how do we manage our energy most effectively? I love that. Distance, center, breathe, and anchor. Oh, anchor. Yeah, grounding. You might think of that as grounding. So again, when I practice this and I, you know, I sway and I feel my feet on the ground. You know, if I'm chair, I feel my butt on the chair. Like, I am here. I'm in my space. I'm, I mean that in my window of tolerance, okay, now I can continue. And we know the power of co-regulation and with mirror neurons. And, all right, so what I'm doing is directly affecting you, even if you're not aware of it, right? And my posture and my voice and my emotions and how I interact with others, you know, and this can be even, you know, fictional characters or what we watch on TV. It can register and trigger parts of our brain as if we're experiencing it.

It's really powerful. The most important thing you can do in building resilience, in your family, in your work team in our world is regulating yourself. That's where it starts because then you can truly engage and show up. So we've got a couple more perseverance, kind of talk about that piece. And then I think one specific question that I think is really interesting is a lot of folks don't have the intrinsic motivation. You know, that kind of, I think, sets the stage to allow them, to kind of persevere. How does someone think about that? And what does that connection actually look like between motivation and perseverance and what we kind of intrinsically have as a default? What would you say? How do people build perseverance? Yeah. I mean, we're all shaped so strongly

by our early childhood experiences and certainly if there's adversity. That's where that social, you know, support comes in. And I think with social support, I think it's important to understand it's not just give me a hug. I don't have anything against hugs. I'm a hugger, right? That personal showing of care is a piece of it. But there's other types of social support. And, you know, one of those is informational, right? We need timely relevant information. And that can be really important, especially after a crisis, you know, through the pandemic. And then we also have operational support. And so sometimes we just need, you know, so think of informational as, you know, what you know, operational is what you do.

so we need practical hands-on guidance to help us accomplish those goals or to achieve what we want to achieve. And then we have those social supports, which we've been talking more about. And so that also can help. Maybe that person doesn't really need that social support at that time, but they need that information. Or operationally, they don't even know what it looks like. And I also think that we're not very good at asking for help. It's a life skill. It's one that needs to be practice because it feels awkward. And we know that those cultures that embrace that and support that are higher performing cultures. We know that if people give help, they tend to report that they feel more socially supported. So there's that mutuality piece. But for the people with that lower

intrinsic motivation, there's a reason that that intrinsic motivation is low. And so you meet them where they are and you start to figure out what they need. And it may or may not be a hug. We'd love to hit on this final one, and I think we can get, you know, really tactical here, but just rejuvenation, you know, the regeneration of positive emotions and actions. How do you kind of define self-care? Does this even fall into this bucket? You know, and why is that kind of a loaded term? Yeah. I mean, self-care, we've stopped using it. We use personal wellness. We have people who've gotten really angry, especially after trauma in communities. And they're like, you're stressing me out with all this emphasis on self-care. Like, stop it. I'm fine. And so in military, there's groups that some people just, it doesn't resonate, right? And you can see why. You know, it has connotations of a spa day or selfish, right? And so, you know, I go back to that really holistic, mental, emotional, or in your case, physical, mental emotional, well-being, right? However you say it, that holistic. And, you know, the stress rest cycles, that that's how we grow. We grow by being. stressed. But that stress, you know, and I guess we didn't make this point when we were talking about the difference between trauma and challenge, right? But that stress needs to feel

manageable to us, that we have some sense of control. It needs to feel moderate. It needs to feel predictable. I mean, that's the distinction between trauma and challenge that can be used for growth. And so, you know, that's a key part of that. You know, our just go-to of a reset, you know, we've been talking kind of about using sensory for reset or using the three P's for a cognitive reset. It's just a body reset. I mean, what you can do in two to three minutes of just closing your eyes, taking a few breaths, noticing tension, start top of your head, your forehead, your cheeks, your chin down, shoulders are a big one.

Take that deep breath and try to increase the distance between your ears and your shoulders. You're doing a couple things there, straightening the spine and releasing tension. work down, work down, work down, and then rest in that. And just, you know, you've led enough groups in this, you see that just a few minutes of this and then you invite them to kind of wiggle their hands and toes and come back to it, you're at a whole different level. The room, you can feel it. It's like, oh, that feels better.

This is available to us any time throughout our day. Yeah. When we go back to kind of this core psychological need of just control, you know, like we can control our breath for the most part. We can, you know, control these kind of mind, body, scan kind of exercises, you know, it's available to us, to your point, at all times, you know. And I think when we consider this concept of rejuvenation or personal wellness, I think it's kind of this thing that we don't want to just wait until something traumatic happens to then try to deploy personal wellness. Like, it's just, it's a habit like anything. And these are skills that we need to

develop and and it's and I think it's about proactively managing the relationship between stress and rest throughout the day and my I learned this from you 20 some years ago you know it's like you know I had my little cell and I was mapping my stress and my rest I was yeah and I was measuring it I was identity I was identifying I was measuring it and I was you know choosing okay what's the appropriate kind of rest in proportion to the amount of stress I just incurred was it physiological stress was it psychological stress to this day you know I mean I still that's how I talk about it that's how I think about it. I use it in my research. It's just such a core piece to really how I think about every moment from one moment to the next. Like maybe just talk through how people

can really think about identifying stress and then how to think about actually mapping appropriate levels of rest so we can actually build resilience ongoing and be prepared for when, you know, life eventually is going to fall apart on us. It just will happen. Preparing our mind and our body for that as proactively as possible is really, I think, the path forward. So, yeah, so we're talking about stress, rest, and we're talking about recovery. So the ideal is that we're stressing mentally, physically, emotionally, and that we build in that appropriate amount so that we can continue to grow. Then something happens, right?

Trauma impacts, impacts on attachment or safety, and we go down below our baseline. And so that is really what we're talking about, you know, in the military context, but we all experience this, where we need to really feel. focus on that recovery plan and strategy to get back up to baseline to then grow. As far as the impact of stress, I really simplify everything. And I think you might remember this, Kristen, where I had these little toys and you press a button and they fall down. And it can be a barrier, a corner, right, whatever.

That stick man, right? Have a stick man, center of your mind and just check in, stick person. How far am I leaning, right? And if that stick person is flat, then you likely need to get flat, right? you might need that 90 minute nap or, you know, more sleep or, and if it's just leaning a little, then, you know, what do you do to get back up? And if you do this throughout your day, there's so much value in and power of being intentional and mindful with that. And so you continue to recoup that energy throughout the day. And that, I think, is the difference. I remember you

experiencing that. It makes a difference of you going home at night and just having nothing left. And then you have, right, hours of work to do or you want to. to be in a relationship and give something to it. And it's like, and so when you really play with that and master that, what's your experience? We haven't really talked about stress rest cycles in 15 years. Oh my God. I mean, I, yeah, for me, literally after every, you know, 90 minute block of work or whatever, I, you know, I'll go out for a little walk. I'll do some, you know, mindful walking, you know, I'll breathe. But I am just so deliberate, so intentional about building in rest, doing that for consistently for 15 years. You know,

I mean, ever since I learned, you know, about the power of really building resilience through proactively managing the relationship between your stress and your rest. So I think for me, it's a daily practice. You know, I try to talk to anyone who listen to me. I try to, I try to let them know the power, you know. When I don't do it, I mean, I see, and I've done kind of these personal experiments where, you know, I see a marked degradation in my sleep efficiency, my sleep onset latency, so my ability to fall asleep. I see huge declines in my heart variability and increases in my resting heart rate. So I think for me, it really does, I think, enable me to sustain, you know, decent levels of, you know, alertness throughout the day, you know, be able to be president

engaged. And I think to your point, most importantly, you know, when it's time to make dinner for my, you know, two beautiful kids at the end of the day, like I can be there. I can be present. And obviously it's never, it's not perfect like that every single day. But I'm trying to be the average of my behaviors. And I think on average, you know, it's pretty darn good. And I really credit it probably if I were to distill it down to one single thing. It's that one, like just the proactive management of stress rest. I think it bleeds into every other thing in my life and has this just downstream effect into a lot of other behaviors. So yeah, and I have really you to thank for that. Well, I stand on the shoulders of others. So Molly, where can people find you and all the

incredible work that you're doing with individuals and communities. Yeah, so I'm available at Molly, M-O-L-L-L-I-E, Marty, M-R-T-I-R-T-I-com. And WorldM-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-A-R-R-M-M-R-M-RG. Following me, we both have newsletters. We staggered them every couple weeks. So following me is more of where my head is with the science and research and also practices and individual experiences. And then WorldMaker is really putting out that Thrive model and those supports.

And we are on the various social channels as well. Gosh, well, this has really been a beautiful conversation. I have learned so much, as always, whenever I talk to you. What I loved about this conversation, I think it was really tactical. And I think there's so many takeaways. And I'm going to listen to this multiple times, but you know, you gave us all sorts of really tangible strategies that I think we can use to manage our energy and, you know, connect with others and just providing a really clear framework on how we need to actually be applying our effort, you know, for really trying to build individual and community resilience. So this is really powerful, Molly. Thank you.

You're very welcome. And, yeah, keep building that, you know, real-time resilience toolkit, I think is what I think of it as. We need these tools. And it's not just one tool is the tool. Or, you know, it really depends on the situation and where we are. Humans are complex. They fascinate me still to this day. I know. I know when you met. I used to stand in front of the rooms working with peak performers and athletes and corporate athletes. I just like, oh, the light in this room, the potentiality that, you know, it would just take my breath away.

And I experience that, you know, in every community I work with, with every child I work with, it's really extraordinary. Keep adding to that toolkit because we need these tools and practice them. That's how we'll continue to grow. We'll do our best. Thank you to Dr. Molly Marty for coming. on the WOOP podcast. A reminder, you can use the code will to get 15% off a WOOP membership that comes with the new WOOP 4.0

shipping on demand. Please review the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. You can check us out on social at WOOP at Will Ahmed. And with that, I wish you a phenomenal and healthy week. Thank you.