WHOOP Podcast - Live Longer and Stronger: Avoiding Frailty with Dr. Linda Fried

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

This month, on the WHOOP Podcast Longevity Series, WHOOP SVP of Research, Algorithms, and Data, Emily Capodilupo sits down with Dr. Linda Fried. Dr. Fried is a geriatrician, Dean of Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health, and Founder of Experience Corps, a nationwide volunteer program for adults over the age of 50 to become literacy tutors in elementary schools. Emily and Dr. Fried discuss the effects of frailty, how to prevent it, and ways to take control of the aging process. Dr. Fried also discusses her path to public health, the lifestyle changes that promote longevity, and the powerful role of purpose and intergenerational connection in healthy aging.(00:30) Dr. Fried on Defining and Researching Frailty(05:44) Identifying Frailty & Frailty Prevention(07:57) Manifestations of Aging in 20 & 30 Year Olds(08:58) How Much of The Aging Process Is Within Our Control?(11:34) Dr. Fried’s Journey to Public Health(13:58) Positive Lifestyle Impacts on Longevity(16:10) Experience Corps: Influence of Volunteer Work on The Aging Population(24:27) What Society Is Missing To Support Healthy Aging(25:44) Re-connecting Across Generations(34:02) The Starting Points for ChangeDr. Linda Fried:LinkedInExperience CorpsSupport the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

What we've learned about aging should create immense optimism among people in their teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s about getting older. If we design a society for longer lives, which we could do, every age could thrive because of longevity. There is huge cause for optimism and we can get rid of the headlines that we see almost every day in the paper that the longevity we've created is the looming disaster. Hi, everybody. I'm Emily Capital Lupo, Woop SVP of Research Algorithms and Data, and I am joined today by the incredible Dr. Linda Freed. Dr. Freed, thank you so much for joining us today.

It's a pleasure to be here, Emily. Thank you. I heard you speak on another podcast where you were talking about how early in your career, frailty was loosely defined with this kind of casual, you know it when you'll see it kind of attitude. what do you think most people are getting wrong or don't understand about frailty? And I'd love if in answering that question, you could use that as a jumping off point to tell us about your background and how you got into this space. I became a geriatrician in the late 1980s when I was leading a clinical program that did geriatric assessments on older people with complex health problems. And the entry criteria for that kind of approach was that people, should be frail. And that frailty really was a condition that was central to understand

so that we could take better care of older people and the physiologic and biologic changes that happened with aging. The problem was that confronted me that all the clinical trials and evaluations of geriatric assessment were coming up negative, meaning they weren't showing the impact we were seeing clinically. And I started puzzling over this a lot because what I have been trained to understand was that frailty was a condition that was recognizable and occurred in a subset of older people as they aged and that it marked a state of high vulnerability, decreased ability to tolerate stressors, increased poor outcomes in the face of illness, or hospitalization or surgery, extreme heat,

and that prevention of those outcomes, as well as prevention of frailty itself was really important. But as you just said, what people were limited to was the fact that there was no definition of frailty. And so there was an assumption that all geriatricians could recognize someone who was frail at 50 yards. But in fact, when you looked at the clinical trials, everyone defined frailty differently. Extreme old age, dependent in daily activities, having a lot of diseases, and so on and so forth.

And it became very clear to me that if we wanted to make geriatric medicine really matter the most for people as they get older, if we wanted to be able to have a basis for prevention of a condition that clearly presaged decline, that we needed to know what we were talking about. And so I spent many, many, many years trying to figure this out. And what we now know is that frailty is, in fact, a distinctly physiologic and biologic condition that occurs in a subset of older people as they age, and that It has a recognizable presentation. People have a decline in strength, a decline in speed of walking, a decline in a sense of energy,

a cutting back in their physical activity, and when it's extreme weight loss. I won't take you through the details, but I spent many years trying to figure out which presentations everybody associated with frailty, and it was those. and why they were on the same list together. What I realized, based on many studies that I did with my colleagues, was that they actually occur in a very vicious cycle where one of these kicks off another of them, and that vicious cycle turns into a downward spiral, and it basically is what clinicians would call a clinical syndrome.

When there are a bunch of those manifestations present, by a bunch, we'll say three or more, then people are clinically frail, and there's a diminished physiologic and biologic reserve going on that underpins developing those manifestations. And that decreased reserve is a result biologically and physiologically of decreased regulation of our systems, which means that the whole system gets. a little clunky. And when there's a stressor of somebody gets a cold or the flu, it's much harder to bounce back. So that's now our understanding of what frailty is many years later. And it's important to understand because then we have a basis for both prevention and treatment.

So you talk a little bit about defining frailty and then how that becomes a basis. for prevention. And you mentioned that some people, as they get older, develop frailty, obviously not everybody. What do we know about the people who go on to develop frailty versus the people who don't? And what could somebody, who's 30, 40 years old now? What should they know? How to not end up frail? So we think that frailty develops as a product of the aging process, at least in a subset of people. But it also can get kicked off by what we call inflammatory diseases like heart disease, HIV AIDS, and other diseases that carry a lot of inflammation as their root cause. The kicking off of frailty is a process actually that is not so moment in time because in fact

it develops slowly and chronically and progressively. And people go, from having one or two of the manifestations and not being frail and really not having the level of biologic dysregulation that you see when people have three, four, or five of those manifestations. But when they have three, four, or five, the process starts to escalate. And in fact, predicts death in many in only a three-year period. So the process is, is important to understand the seriousness of the outcomes, high risk of death, of loss of independence, of falls, of disability, all things we would like to be able to help people prevent, if possible. So it turns us to thinking about prevention. And if this is a chronic

progressive process, then it means that early and sustained interventions over one's life course would likely matter. And in fact, what we know is that from my colleague Dan Belski and others, that in fact, people start having manifestations of aging even in their 20s and 30s. What would be some of the ways that a 20 or 30-year-old would recognize a manifestation of aging? So I'm not sure that one would recognize it as an individual, but in Dr. Belski's studies of whole populations, of people 26 to 37 years of age, you can distinguish groups who actually have a little slower walking time,

a little slowed in cognition, a little weaker, and those kinds of findings actually predict a more rapid pace of aging subsequently. What that suggests to me is that we have to look at the factors that create that. And some of that is within the individual's control, and some of that is harder for the individual to control. But societally, we could build solutions that would protect people on the things they can't do themselves.

What would you guess is the percentage of aging that's within our control versus a product of our environment or genetics that's outside of our control? I would say that a large proportion of health across longer lives is a consequence of both our health behaviors and the environments and contexts in which we live. And I can tell you that it matters, for example, to have more education. That actually protects against becoming frail and increases the likelihood of living longer and aging with health. What's the mechanism that you think that's at play there? So that's a really important question, and I don't think we have the final answer on that. Some of that is knowledge about how to invest in one's life, but some of that is actually increased capabilities that come with more education to access the resources and to live in the environment that produce health.

So I would like to tell you, and I believe this is true, that not only more education, but being physically active and physically fit, and maintaining muscle strength throughout your life is really important to both your brain and your muscles and preventing frailty. In fact, it's the best thing you can do for your brain along with education. And its effect is amplified by eating the right and healthy diets. Now, for many people, being told that leads them to go and do it, and they're able to do it. But for many more people, if I wrote a prescription as someone's physician to eat a healthy diet and I told them what it was, for many people they couldn't afford it and they couldn't actually even buy it in their neighborhood. In that case, someone's behaviors is not sufficient.

Right. even if there's the intent. One of the well-defined roles of public health in the U.S. is to create the conditions in every community so that people can make healthy choices, the easy choice for them to do. So how do we design our contexts, our resources, our access, our environments? So they produce the conditions for health

and they enable people to do the behaviors that would make them healthy. Then you take what we've learned and democratize that, So everyone can have that. You really see from your answer how you made the jump from being, you know, clinician to going into public health because some of these problems, you know, the well-intended doctor with the right advice actually doesn't have the tools or the ability to solve. I'd love to hear more about that journey and how you made that jump. Well, you're right. That's the connection. So I love being a doctor. I love taking care of my patients, and I learned a tremendous amount from my patients.

But I learned early on that only 20% of a population's health comes from medical care, less than 10% from our genes, and the rest comes from public health. And the conditions that we create societally then enable everybody to have the opportunity for health. and you need both. I've come to think about medical care and public health as the two sides of the health coin. You need both sides of a coin to have a coin. You need both those sides of public health and medical care to have health in a society. And public health has to be enabled to deliver the goods, which are like medicine, science-based,

and not just to deliver the science, which is the role of a school public health, but to deliver the conditions in every community so people can be healthy. Without that, we have the risk for all of us of wide disparities in the opportunity for health, wide disparities in illness, and a huge difference between healthy longevity in some and no healthy longevity in many. What's up, folks, if you are enjoying this podcast or if you care about health, performance, fitness, you may really enjoy getting a whoop. That's right.

You can check out whoop at whoop.com. It measures everything around sleep, recovery, strain, and you can now sign up for free for 30 days. So you'll literally get the high performance wearable in the mail for free. You get to try it for 30 days, see whether you want to be a member. And that is just at whoop.com. Back to the guests. A lot of what you've spoken about is the responsibility for the public health system to make making great choices easier. So what are some of the things that the everyday listener might not be thinking of as they think about their own longevity and specifically like health span and preventing frailty?

I would say there's kind of a one handful of things to do for oneself. Stay physically active and maintain muscle strength. Eat a healthy diet. The third thing is smoking, which is pretty dangerous to your health. And I would say to demand no air pollution, which compounds the effects of smoking but is terrible in itself. does a lot of the same things smoking does. The fourth and fifth things are loneliness and social connection, which is it's converse. Social connection that's meaningful to you, not just a count of how many people you're connected with, but whether those relationships matter. That kind of

social connection is nurturing. It carries you through your life, and it creates well-being and makes a richer life. Now you can pull things together and with your friends jog, that's great too. You don't have to do those one at a time. And the fifth thing is meaning and purpose for oneself as an individual.

So what do you care about? What difference do you want to bring to the world? And as people get older, it becomes much more explicit, perhaps, as a result of life journey, which is how do you think about the ways in which you left the world better than you found it? Now, that's not a mandate, but it's a desire that many people have, and it actually is motivational to accomplish things that leave you feeling like you did it,

which is really fulfilling. It sounds like especially the last two around social connection and purpose, are being tackled through this program you created with Experience Corps, where you get older adults to spend time with public elementary school students. Can you tell me a little bit about that program? Sure. I'd be delighted to talk about Experience Corps. I learned from many of my patients that not having a reason to get up in the morning when you were older, having no role and no perceived value made people sick.

I mean, really sick. And I learned that there was no pill for that. And I, because I actually had a long background of writing physical activity prescriptions for people. I started writing prescriptions for people to go and volunteer on something that they really cared about and create for themselves a reason to get up in the morning. And what I consistently found was that my older patients were, if they went to volunteer in an organization, it didn't matter how accomplished they were. They were putting a quarter licking stamps to put on envelopes.

Nobody paid any attention to the immense assets they were bringing to the table that could enable an organization to succeed more. And time after time, my patients would come back and report back that they weren't willing to waste their time. Their time on earth was limited, and they wanted to make a difference. So it became clear to me at that time that, We did not have the social organizations that were fit for purpose for our longer lives that could take all the assets that we accumulate, we build, we develop as we get older

across our lives, but they mature as you get older. We need to have organizations that could value them and help people use them to give back and make a difference, which is what most older people want to do. Not everyone, but most older people. And if they're healthy, then they have the resources to do it. So I decided that I was going to try and create an organization that could demonstrate it was possible to build a new social institution for this world of longer lives that would do that. And the issue to me that was a burning issue still is, is public education.

and the need to assure that all young people get a great education for themselves, but also for a successful democracy. And at the time, it was probably the only role in elementary education that our society would have countenanced older people playing. And so I launched Experience Corps to place older people in a very scientifically designed model in public elementary schools as volunteers, not as teachers, not as paraprofessionals, to support the success of the kids and to enable the teachers to be successful. And hidden inside of it is a pretty powerful public health program

to improve the health and well-being of the older volunteers. That's Experience Corps. The roles we designed are varied. I will say that older people show up to make a difference. They don't show up to get the physical and cognitive activity that is hidden in there. But they do value the social connection, and they show up for the meaning and purpose. And it works. And we've demonstrated that over the years, both for the kids, for the school climate,

for teachers feeling like with the volunteers there, the students keep up and they're better able to teach. And it works for the minds, the memory, and the health of the older people. I love that, and I love that it's, you know, a place where it's such a win-win. You know, the schools clearly need it, and it's amazing that you're able to quantify and demonstrate benefits to the students and teachers. And then, you know, beyond just the volunteers feeling like they're doing good, which, of course, it sounds like they are, the fact that that's also coming back to benefits for them is so incredible. And it reminds me of this study that I probably send to my mom like every four to six weeks that came out of Harvard that showed that grandparents who are active in their grandchildren's lives, like live longer and healthier.

I have a toddler. So, you know, it's usually sneak it in there with request to babysit. But, you know, it's true that, you know, my mom who is in great shape and is generally quite healthy, the way that she moves in. playing with my daughter and, you know, with her other grandchildren is just different because toddlers have you getting up and down from the floor. They have you, you know, throwing your arms up and dancing. And, you know, she's not doing that otherwise. And so I think, like, you definitely see, obviously, it's a huge favor to myself and my husband and to my siblings for their kids, but, you know, definitely getting her to work out in a way that she otherwise wouldn't. And so I think,

like, just really incredible to see another application of a similar finding. And so, frustrating that you had to do that, that these other organizations where older people were attempting to volunteer and people couldn't see past like, oh, it's an old lady, I'll sit her desk in the corner, failing to realize what an incredible gift they were being handed. There's one other dimension to it, though. There were programs at the time that we looked at that were, you know, one or two older adults would volunteer in a public elementary school. But the challenges for many of the kids are so big that they quickly realized they alone couldn't solve them and that what they were doing was, you know, the proverbial drop in the bucket. And so part of the design of experience core is actually to bring a critical mass of older adults into a school so that you can raise all boats, all kids in a grade.

then you have the potential to reset the norm, and it requires an institution that could deliver collective action. That collective action by many older adults is what older people know is needed to tackle the challenges, which we have. We have so many societal challenges where you need collective action by many to solve them, whether it's in one school or across our nation. And so we need institutions that are designed to deliver that. And there's this fabulous potential alignment between the challenges we have that require many, the desire by older people to affect those challenges, to improve them, and the sheer scale of the number of older people in society with this desire and the capabilities.

And if we could build institutions for many goals that could unite those three, then we would have institutions fit for purpose. Experience Corps was the first model to try and do that, but we need many more. If anybody's listening to this and they want to volunteer for Experience Corps, are you just in New York? No, Experience Corps is now run by AARP and you can go on the ARP website. That's great. So we will put a link to that in the show know. for anybody who's interested in volunteering and, you know, thank you for creating such an incredible thing and for not just proving in one use case, but for reminding everybody that there's

this incredible resource to be tapped into and that you have this population that wants to help is highly skilled and can make these differences. And so hopefully we see more inspired by what you've done, you know, in different areas too. Super incredible work. When you think about other areas that people just don't understand these problems, like what else do you wish people knew? You know, you have this really powerful message around like, don't write them off. What else do people miss right now? And what message do you want our listeners to hear? So I guess I would offer two. One is what we've learned about age. should create immense optimism among people in their teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s about getting

older. If we design a society for longer lives, which we could do, in which every age could thrive because of longevity, there is huge cause for optimism and we can get rid of the headlines that we see almost every day in the paper that the longevity we've created is a looming disaster. Yeah, there's so much pessimism around that. Just like we're running out of geriatricians. We're running out of care aids. That's a result of not planning. It's a result of not investing.

It's a result of not redesigning. But we could do that. None of those are rocket science. So that's one thing. The second thing is that we need each other across generations. You gave one example of why. But the amazing thing is that the U.S. is now the most age-segregated society in the history of the world, in the history of the world. And generations don't know each other.

But in fact, through human history, generations have contributed to each other in immense ways. I'll tell you one little story, which may sound trivial, but I teach a course every spring semester for Columbia College. undergraduates, graduate students, and for auditors in the community, many of whom are older adults. It's called Your Longer Life with a parenthesis around the first why. And it is about what this new longer life means for all of us and how we could design to optimize. We were teaching it when the pandemic started and we couldn't do our in-person final project. So we had each of our students actually talk by phone to an older adult who basically at that point was in lockdown in their home. And the students were thrilled to do that because they thought they could help a very lonely older adult.

But every single essay they wrote about talking two hours a week for eight weeks to an older adult in lockdown told the same story, which is that the students were totally ununderstandably frightened. about what was going on, about mortality for themselves or people they cared about. It felt like people were in free fall. It was frightening. And they said what got them through it was talking twice a week to this older person who would say, and this is where it sounds silly, honey, I've been through worse. Yeah.

But that perspective is so important. And I think, like, what we lose so much in the age segregation and only spending time with same-aged peers is, like, you literally have no reference. And we lose in all dimensions. First of all, that's the basis of discrimination, is if you don't know others, you typecast them, you stereotype them, and you don't understand who they really are. but you also lose the benefits of connection, which are so rich. This is a little bit different, but so my daughter's about a year and a half, and every time she's upset, I have to remember, you know, she's 20 months old, this is literally the worst thing that's ever happened to her, right?

She wants something a lot, it's shiny, and mama's saying, no, like, that's her reference. That's the worst thing that's ever happened to her. And I think, like, you know, obviously as we get older, you get the benefit of your own wisdom and your own experience, but if you spend time with people or older, you get the benefit of their stories and you don't have to live through all of it. One of the other dimensions here is the OK Boomer movement, which I found and still find incredibly painful. And to me, it was a creed to occur, if you will, from young people to say they feel abandoned. They seem to have been abandoned. And by older generations, to deal

with climate change by themselves. Now, I'm not sure, I don't believe that perception matches reality, but age segregation makes it seem real to younger people. And if we thought about, if we resolve this age segregation, I can envision a world where young people and old people are partnering to solve climate change together, to protect human health in the face of climate change. No generation has to do this solo, but we need to build the way for people to know each other.

So it sounds like you've got these incredible benefits for your students to sort of create this almost pen-pal-like experience with an older person. It sounds like maybe there's some obvious advice here, if you're lucky enough to still have grandparents, give them a call. What advice would you give listeners around, you know, it's maybe not so trivial to be like, hey, go move back in with your grandparents or move to wherever you grew up? But what would you encourage people to do to action some of this? Well, in our class, we asked people to talk to the person sitting next to them and find out how many times in the month they talk to somebody who's more than 20 years different in age from them and not in your family. Okay.

What did you get? Almost nothing. Wow. So I think that's where we start, is to take note of that. Yeah. and to find ways to build connections across generations. We need them for resilience. We need them for optimism and for giving each other a hand up.

I love that. So definitely some advice to seek out those relationships. Where could people go to find them? Well, start at work. There's a type of social capital, which is called linkage social capital, which is the relationships between, between people who are more senior and less senior in a profession, a job, an area of expertise. And the evidence is completely compelling that people who have more expertise

than you can give a hand and often want to. It's a key to more success in a career. So find those people and connect with them. And then look for other organizations that you care about and try and choose one in which generations are solving it together. I love that advice. And I think every so often a brave intern, like usually a summer intern, like an undergrad, will ask me to get coffee with them. And, you know, they generally have the, tell me about your career and how you got there type of questions. But I say yes to 100% of those requests. They're so much fun. And I think one of the things that I did not understand early in my career and wish more people did is that people are so flattered by those requests. So I think people get so intimidated that like, oh,

this senior person doesn't know my name and, you know, it's way too busy for me. And sometimes those can be some of the loneliest physicians. So they tend to be super flattered. So good for your longevity, good for your career. And you'll make somebody's day. So I think great advice to think about work as a place where you might happen upon those people, whereas other things that you're doing socially might be harder to find 20-year-age gap. There's a lot of evidence that's mounting that the people who are the worst off after the pandemic from a job and career point of view are young people in a field because when you're not coming into the office, you don't have the opportunity to build connections

with people who are more senior, you're missing out on the mentorship and just the learning by seeing other people at work in ways where they're not inside a little Zoom square. Yeah. And that is a big thing, I think, for everybody to take note of for the more junior people in the workplace to know the value of being in the office and the more senior people to be there to provide that kind of modeling, advice, mentorship. that is critical. Yeah, we have a strong in-office culture here.

Everybody's here four days a week, at least. And I absolutely agree with that, having been here pre-pandemic through the whole pandemic. Now, we can call it post-pandemic. There's the people who graduated college and entered the workforce in that window. Definitely were at a big disadvantage, and it took a while to catch up some of those things. Yeah, that's consistent with what we were. When you think about building communities and environments for longevity and all the work that you can do, I'd love to just end on.

What are two or three things that you would change in the world and that we should most be focused on changing? So the first thing I would start with is to say that we have created longevity. I mean, that statement to me has taken my breath. for decades. We created this through our investments, particularly in public health. And now the job is to create the value of longevity. And that is, to my mind, one of the most exciting grand acts of imagination that is being offered to all of us. If we can buy into the potential for huge optimism, and I think it's there, then if we could collectively create imaginative acts that help us design a future we want to live in when we're older and make sure that it's designed so every age does better, then we can build it.

I love that framing, right? Like longevity is this massive win of so many public health and medical advancements. And as you said earlier, we need to stop thinking. thinking about it as, well, great, Social Security is, like, in trouble now. And instead, how do we go leverage this incredible resource? And you've obviously talked quite a bit during this podcast about some of the ways you're leveraging that. So that's such a beautiful challenge to leave people with, make this an asset, not a liability. Now, I'm not an expert on Social Security and Medicare, but the experts say that there are fixes that we could put in place.

if we stop politicizing it, if we said that Social Security and Medicare are what they are, they're foundational to the well-being of people as they get older, to the families who care for and about them, and they basically have been paid into over a person's whole career by that person, and they're fixable. So the acts of imagination go well beyond that. There are several things in this field that have taken my breath away for decades. I've talked about some of them.

But one of them is that what science has shown us in the last few decades is that there's the potential for all of us to get better with age. This hanging crape, if you will, that we just deteriorate isn't accurate. now obviously our bodies have wear and tear problems over a lifetime and accumulated threats to health which are serious and that's why throughout this we've been talking about how to prevent disease and build health across longer lives but at the same time that that's happening the other things that are going on i think are quite amazing to have learned one of them is Contrary to our mythology, people acquire knowledge across their lives through expertise and the work they do, through life experience. And that doesn't disappear on a given birthday. It doesn't disappear if you retire.

People don't lose that. And they keep learning. So that's an incredible cash of 40 or 60 or even 80 years of knowledge. The second thing is that because of that and because people become really values grounded, many people, not everybody, as they get older, they combine those two and it starts forming the basis for wisdom. And none of us are guaranteed to be wise, but the attributes of wisdom are in what I just said, plus a certain characteristic generosity. that grows as people get older. There's strong scientific evidence that as we get older, we become more prosocial, more concerned about the neighbor next door, the kid down the block,

and attend to how to be helpful or more generous to our own family. But also, all of these things roll together in terms of greater ability to solve really complex problems. As people accrue all these attributes, actually, they have a lifetime of experience of confronting complex issues, and if they think they matter, big matter, big capital M matter, they have the experience of patience to interrogate the problem, the experience of how to break it out into its actionable parts, and the patience to get it done, and the drive to get it done. get it done now. Those are amazing combinations. And on top of that, interestingly, as people get older,

they get better, not everybody, but many, get better at solving conflict, perhaps because of these accrued capabilities. And finally, Eric and Joan Erickson told us that developmentally as people get older in their 60s and 70s and 80s and beyond, They have a very strong desire to make sure that their time on this earth matter, that they are leaving the world better than they found it.

And there's a word for that, which is called generativity, or a desire to know that you were generative. If you put all of those capabilities together that we accrue as we get older, I find it breathtaking, what the potential of having all of us as an older population. 20 or 40% of us in the United States in coming years with that set of assets. What could we do with that? It's such an incredible note of optimism to end on that instead of thinking of the aging population as some kind of burden, it's, wow, on average, the population is going to get nicer, more generous,

more pro-social, and how all of those things are going to make the world better for everybody. And I love this note of, you know, don't write off or underestimate the elderly. It's so beautiful. I'm going to call my grandpa when we hang up. This is such a beautiful message to sum up such beautiful work that you've been doing. So Dr. Fried, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for your wonderful questions. I deeply appreciate them. If you enjoyed this episode of the WOOP podcast, please leave a rating or review. Check us out on social at Woop at Will Ahmed. If you have a question, us and answer it on the podcast, email us, podcast at whoop.com. Call us 508, 443, 4952. If you think about joining whoop, you can visit whoop.com, sign up for a free 30-day trial membership. New members can use the code Will, W-I-L, to get a $60 credit on Woop accessories when you enter the code at checkout. That's a wrap, folks. Thank you all for listening.

We'll catch you next week on the WOOP podcast. As always, stay healthy and stay in the green.