WHOOP Podcast - Mike Mancias, trainer to LeBron James, discusses the role recovery plays in keeping his athlete on the court, and why he's been "all-in" on WHOOP since the beginning.

Episode Date: March 27, 2019

LeBron James' long-time athletic trainer Mike Mancias talks about his journey from equipment manager of a small college basketball team to training an all-time great (6:17), working with Tim Grover and Michael Jordan (10:18), durability and post-game recovery (18:52), getting involved with WHOOP (24:27), effects of the NBA lockout in 2010-11 (26:31), what he sees in WHOOP data (27:24), nutrition trends (29:11), his best training tip for the everyday athlete (30:24), recovery methods to combat aging (32:21), what to do when you're "low energy" on gameday (36:19), his career highlights (39:34), and improving the happiness of NBA players (42:07).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

We discovered that there were secrets that your body was trying to tell you that could really help you optimize performance, but no one could monitor those things. And that's when we set out to build the technology that we thought could really change the world. Welcome to the WOOP podcast. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, founder and CEO of WOOP, where we are on a mission to unlock human performance. At WOOP, we measure the body 24-7 and provide analytics to our members to help improve performance. This includes strain, recovery, and sleep. Our clients range for the best professional athletes in the world, to Navy SEALs, to fitness enthusiasts, to Fortune 500 CEOs and executives.

The common thread among WOOP members is a passion to improve. What does it take to optimize performance for athletes, for humans, really anyone? We're launching a podcast to dig deeper. We'll interview experts and industry leaders across sports, data, technology, physiology, athletic achievement, you name it. My hope is that you'll leave these conversations with some new ideas and a greater passion for performance. With that in mind, I welcome you to the Whoop podcast.

In 2010, I think we had the NBA lockout. When we came back from that, it was a short season. Sometimes we played three games in a row. And so that's when all of the conversations that we were having on sleep, all the conversations we had on recovery, that's when they came into fruition because the team and the athletes that were most recovered and who got the most rest were the ones that were winning.

What's up, folks? My guest today is Mike Mencius, long-time personal trainer to LeBron James. James. Mike and I first met four years ago. He's been a friend and advisor to whoop ever since. Mike's journey is a fascinating one. We explore how we went from being the student manager of a small college basketball team to athletic trainer to arguably the greatest athlete of our generation. It's really a good story for anyone who's thinking about how to rise up in their career. Mike follows almost every ladder possible to become where he ultimately is today.

We also talk about the various preparation and recovery techniques Mike uses with LeBron, how he's helped him be one of the league's most durable players for the last decade and a half. We also discuss how Mike first got involved with Whoop, the benefits he sees in it, and why he believes the data is so important. Mike also shares the one piece of training advice he'd give to the average everyday athlete. I think you're going to get a lot out of this. Without further ado, here is Mike. Mike, thanks for coming on.

Hey, I'm excited to be part of this. Well, it's been a fun journey working with you now for a number of years. Oh, yeah. And there's a lot we can talk about. I want to start, though, by just understanding it's about 8.30 in the morning here in Manhattan. Talk to me about your night last night. Well, we got in, you know, we got in from Detroit. We didn't get until probably two in the morning from that flight.

I know it's a quick flight, but weather was the best, so, you know, sometimes we get grounded for a few minutes, but this time was about an hour, hour and a half. So it elongated our evening and our morning, went to bed about 3, 3.30. Well, it's this thing that I feel like we as fans forget is that even though often professional athletes are flying private or chartering, you still have to deal with the weather. And the fact of the matter is you guys just came off a back-to-back, and now you're going to bed at three or four in the morning in a, you know. Yeah, that's the business we've chosen.

chosen, right? But there's one thing that we always joke about is that the weather does not discriminate. Whether you're flying private, whether flying commercial, it's just, you know, you're up to its mercy. And when you come off a trip like that, how does it start to shift the way you think about sleep and recovery, which I know are super important themes for you and obviously for the work that you do with LeBron? Yeah, you know, most importantly, we want him to, and we want our guys to get as much rest, as much sleep as possible. So we don't schedule anything for about eight hours after we get into the hotel, you know, to get the guys ample time to go in, to settle in,

and try to get some good REM sleep. That's smart. I mean, I've often heard, maybe this is more of an old-school approach, that people have a, like, a fixed schedule. And no matter if you get in at midnight or at three, we still have that 9 a.m. shoot around. It sounds like you guys have a much more flexible schedule. Yeah, we have to, you know, you always have to have to adjust, you know, adjust to our travel schedule.

I always say that our travel schedule is that unseen opponent that's constantly there. And it's constantly there and it wants to beat you and it wants to beat you up. So we definitely have to adjust to that. Well, I want to go back in time for a second. And so you and I met in 2014. Woop was in its early stages of the company. It had only been around for a couple years at that point. Our technology was in its early stages.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember. Yeah, I remember the prototype Woop bands and the software, et cetera. It was, however, back then, I was able to see the vision with you. And, you know, here we are. are a few years later well it's been a great journey and you know the thing that impressed me about you was um you know here you are uh training arguably the best athlete of of our generation

and um and yet you've managed to keep a very low profile you've you've stayed incredibly humble throughout that and i always found that we were talking about whoop you had these interesting insights so for our audience who maybe has had trouble finding you even on the internet You know, talk a little bit about how you go from being student manager of Texas Pan Am's basketball team to all of a sudden personal trainer for LeBron James. What was that journey like? Gosh, you know, yeah, we're really going back in time now. You know, I started off, you know, I wanted to be involved with college basketball.

And from there, I wanted to be involved with professional basketball. And I was always interested in the sports medicine. and so my foot in the door was actually equipment you know so I started doing uh I was the equipment manager for our basketball team for about a semester and then um then our our trainer our our student trainer he wasn't able to to finish off the year and so I started volunteering and interning with with our head trainer at the at the university and just started learning the ropes there so the next of the following year I was doing both I was doing equipment i was doing uh you know i was a student athletic trainer stepping stones man stepping

stones yeah just stepping stones and uh and i loved it i just fell in love with it i felt in love i mean i've always loved basketball i mean that that that's that's been my my number one love um and just you know i said well if i'm doing it at this level why can't i do it at the professional level and so i started doing my research and just started cold calling you know professional teams yeah amazing whether whether it was pro football or pro basketball i just um you know kept calling and uh writing letters etc etc and finally um good old keith jones from the houston rockets you know i called him up and i told him what i wanted to do uh what i was interested in and he said well why did you

come up for a weekend and kind of shadow us and see what we do here with the rockets and you know i was like a kid in the candy store i said absolutely so uh you know i jose um you know i jose um you know i jose up to Houston, which is about four hours from where I'm from. I drove up for the weekend, you know, stayed with a friend of mine up in Houston, and I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with it, and started doing pre-Jef camps for the NBA in Chicago. I got approved, and I pulled some strings to go volunteer there. Volunteered for three years there at the NBA pre-JF camps, and, again, loved it.

You know, I was like, I said, somebody to pinch me because I'm like, I'm living a dream already. Like, you know, I'm working with these high-end college athletes who are about to be in the NBA. So I was extremely excited about that. While I was there, I networked a little bit more with some athletic trainers from, you know, from pro sports and from big-time college programs, I call. And from there, just networked. And then I met the head trainer for the Cavaliers, the head trainer for, you know, the Milwaukee Bucks. and just, I felt in love, you know, I felt in love with the camaraderie that they came with it and all the, in the long hours as well. And so all of a sudden I get, I got a call that the Cavaliers looking for a seasonal intern.

So I apply and I get it. I did, I did Summer League with them, and then I got hired on. And what time, what year is this? Guys, this was, I started, I started the pre-jave camps with the NBA in 19. 1998. It was my very first one. Yeah. I mean, I graduated high school in 95. Okay.

Just to give you some with some context there. So you were hustling right out of the gates? I was hustling right out of the gates. Yeah, right of the kids. I started doing equipment for the basketball team. And then just started interning and volunteering. Next to you know, I'm working in a pre-jab camp three years later right after high school graduation. Yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah. So, 98, 99, 2000. And then graduated in 2000, 2001. I got hired on by the Cavaliers. And somewhere in that period of time, I read that you got to know Tim Grover. Absolutely right. It was during the pre-jab camp in Moody Bible College that, you know, again, you got scouts from all over the NBA. You got GMs, coaches, scouts.

You got obviously some players, agents. And, of course, Tim was a big part of that because that was his backyard. at, you know, Chicago, and he was famous for his work with MJ, and his, um, his gym was in Chicago, uh, with some of the, some of the top players of our time were, uh, where, uh, where they're playing basketball and doing pickup games with, uh, with MJ. So he, he stopped by the gym and I, you know, I, I made it a point to introduce myself. And, um, you know, he was, he was, was very courteous and, you know, there's anything I could do, you know, let me know, and I said, well, you know let's let's stay in touch and so you know i've always wanted to work with him kind of

learn from him a little bit learn his techniques learn his his style learn his um not only his style but just just as his methods his methods and how you deal with uh top-notch athletes um and so i want to learn from him and next you know we're on a call in 2001 um mj you know decides he wants to come back and play for the wizards and he's training and in Chicago and just the stars aligned I guess and Tim said okay you know you want to come out and help us out go ahead I mean that's got to be one of the best internships ever for someone who's aspiring to you know go down your career path oh yeah yeah absolutely I always say with Tim I learned a lot of what to do and also what what not to do and what I mean by that is he helped me

understand how to how to prepare myself to work with you know an athlete of an elite level like like like an mj you know we had all the all the big time guys at that time you know he had um you know joan howard he had michael finley he had tim hardaway um jamaul crawford he had uh charles barkley he had scotty pippen you know he was uh he was ahead of his time well one thing i imagine that you picked up from Tim was just had to be around an athlete of like Michael Jordan because even those other names you mentioned for most people being around them would be overwhelming but Michael Jordan and to some degree I think today LeBron James is exactly the same way they're the whole stature above where it's like every camera is following them right what did you notice about the way Tim approached that

with Michael Jordan he was he was consistent he was consistent that's something to to this day that I that I hold dearly to how I approach every day with what I do. You know, you must be consistent and you must be even keel. You know, you can't get too high, can't get too low when the chips are down. But you just always had to be there. You had to be available, you know, 24-7. Because you're invested in it, and not monetarily, but you're invested. You know, you care.

hearts in it, you know, and so you live, breathe, and die this, you know, 24-7. Was there anything about the way that Tim managed MJ's sort of competitiveness or personality that you took away from? No, I think he just helped accentuate it. Yeah. You know, he just helped accentuate it. I think Tim was a reflection of Mike, and Mike was a reflection of Tim. You know, they both went hand in hand.

Now, I read that in transitioning to Cleveland. MJ actually wrote you a letter of recommendation. Is that true? That is true. So you must have made an amazing impression. You know, I just, I guess I'm a quick learner. I'm a quick learner. You know, I was humbled by the whole experience. You know, I was in awe, you know, being around and working around Tim and MJ.

And it was, you know, I asked for a letter recommendation. At that time, I just finished college. And I said, you know, what are the odds that he'd write me a letter recommendation? You know, if he was happy with the way to help him and Tim, and sure enough, he did it. Well, I mean, I think for people listening who are trying to advance anywhere in their career, there's something to learn just in that story. It takes true guts to go ask MJ for a recommendation. I mean, this is one of the most intimidating athletes of all time.

Yeah, I think I was a gutsy little guy coming out of high school. But you also had nothing to lose, too, right? True, yeah, exactly, exactly. So there's a learning in that. Okay, so you go to Cleveland, and this is now. Now, I think LeBron's rookie year or his second year? Yes, this was his... Actually, I get the call from the head trainer for the Cavs at the time.

He says, okay, we're looking for a summer league trainer, Max Benton, you know, the good Cavaliers trainer. And Stan Kellers was the strength coach at the time. And I learned a lot from those guys. They came up to me and said, you know, we're impressed. we're happy with your work ethic, you know, would you like, would you be interested in the seasonal internship? You know, that was, you know, you know, I almost, you know, I almost passed out to say, absolutely. Absolutely. And so, so it's okay. You're literally climbing every ladder. I love it. Yeah. I mean, it's summer league interns, seasonal intern. Yeah. So that year, you're obviously

spending a lot more time with, um, with the players and LeBron James. How did you first start working with them you know it was it was never intentional it was just you know he's one of the players you know be respectful you know be there for for whatever he needs you know in my book there was no difference between lebron james or or one of the old vets you know it was just totally he's an NBA player he's part of our roster help him with whatever he needs and stay out of his way yeah and i mean on some of i imagine it may have actually been easier for you to build a rapport with him that early in his career because now you know once when someone meets lebron james for the first time it's just impossible for them not to be on a different stature even if you want to tell yourself it's just one of 15 guys

whereas for you it really was like you know we'll see how this rookie plays out and we got you know 14 other guys yeah yeah um so it was uh yeah it was easy for me yeah it was easy because it was you know i've always been about just my job and work you know that the one i don't like asking any much for anything it was just you know do your job be consistent and we'll see where it goes so obviously your time with the cavaliers a lot of success um what what were some of the techniques that you introduced for lebron that that may have been new or you know or important to your methodology yeah i um i think it was um just a combination of everything from i think it all started with uh with stuff in the weight room and with

core strengthening and flexibility. You know, here's this 19, 20-year-old kid, you know, who's just blessed, you know, beyond recognition, you know, but he's also a great person. And I think he wanted to, even back then he wanted to be better. Yeah.

Okay, how can I push and be better and be better? And so, you know, so we started doing some simple, like, stretching exercises and that led to, okay, let's go to the weight room and do a couple of exercises and then it led to okay what are you doing outside of this that can they can help prepare us for you know for for for a more productive season so we started talking about nutrition and then it was hard talking about recovery you know what can we do outside of this you know the sports massage you know maybe you should you should ice

your knees you know after practices after games more so we started doing that and then it just turned into, okay, supplementation, you know, what aren't you getting in your diet? And so it just evolved. It just really evolved. But it all started with just doing some flexibility work and some stretching and, you know, maybe some bad work here and there. And then now, boom, it was all, it turned into, you know, what it is now, 15 years later, this all-encompassing, you know, holistic process. Well, it's been an amazing 15 years and it's been well documented as one of the most durable runs for ever you know for any professional athlete i think lebron's now 34 years old he's played the most playoff minutes in NBA history um he's never missed a playoff game ranks among

all-time leaders and total minutes played now recovering from that's obviously really challenging lebron's been credited as being one of the best recovered athletes yeah talk a little bit about the importance of recovery and um and what are some of the things that you think are really important for recovery well um i was i was talking to um to someone else about it earlier in the year about recovery and um the the one thing that i want to be clear of but is that recovery never stops yeah you know even while you're playing you have to have a uh um your your mind has to be on the next play and and the next play could be uh you know not not actually in basketball terms but the next play is, what am I doing after the game?

You know, that's my next play, is how am I being neutrified? You know, what am I doing for nutrition? Then the next play after that, what am I doing on this flight? And the next play is, okay, what am I doing when I get to the hotel? What am I, you know, how much sleep am I getting? So it's an evolving process. It's a non-stop process. It's a constant, you know, being, if you will.

Well, I was just on the show, the boardroom, which is on. ESPN right now and I was with Kevin Duran and Steve Nash and Andre Goudal and they were talking about um you know just how much the games advanced from the standpoint of thinking about recovery yeah you know 15 years ago you might get on a plane and forget that you got a game tomorrow in some ways you know whereas now what are some of the things that you you know you like to do after a game for example to to try to get recovery as optimal as possible let's see so As soon as the game's over, we, you know, we start to neuterify the body. And, and again, we have in mind, okay, what's the next day like?

Is it going to be a practice day? Is it going to be a off day? Is it going to be, and by off, I mean, no practice or game, you know. Right, which is unusual. Yeah, yeah. And so. So let's pretend tomorrow's a game day. If tomorrow's a game day.

Like back to back. Yeah. Then we're right after the game that we just had, we're neuterifying. You know, I want to make sure he has the number. number one, a protein recovery shake, you know, and we're fortunate enough to, uh, to actually establish our own. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, we, this is the latter brand you're talking about. This is, this, this is, this is the, you know, the, the, the latter brand that we started earlier in, uh, earlier this season in November, we launched. And, uh, this is an

opportunity for, um, for folks outside of professional sports to actually, um, have access to, you know, the same protein recovery shakes, the same pre-game, pre-workout drinks, and just, and the same nutrition and greens drink that the professionals actually have access to that LeBron actually uses, you know, pre-game and post-game. So we're excited for the launching of that product, and it's called Ladder. And that's one of the things that we use after every game, actually before and after every game. And what about that supplement? You know, what did you feel was missing in the market in order to create it?

I think what was missing in the market was transparency. And, you know, we set out with a goal. And the gopher ladder was just, you know, provide everyone with a clean product. A clean product that actually works and that tastes good. You know, it was, you know, we left nothing up to the imagination as far as like proprietary. ingredients yeah um you know all the ingredients are clearly labeled uh in in the packaging um and it was very important for us to be nsf certified for sport uh because uh you know guys guys have to you know unfortunately there's there's a lot of uh a lot of junk out there in in the realm of uh sports

supplements and um vitamins and uh you know all this uh pre game stuff that the guys are taking a lot of it isn't certified for sports so that's one thing that we wanted to be very clear you know to our athletes and to the people in the you know the people in the outside of sports was that we want to provide a clean NSF certified product you know that makes a lot of sense to me because if you're managing everything that an individual does for recovery and then you're giving him a supplement and you don't know necessarily what's in it that's totally undermines the process so it makes perfect sense that you guys created your own absolutely you know we want to be holistic uh in this whole process uh we want to uncover every

you know uh you know leave no stone uh unturned you know when it comes to uh not only lj but you know the rest of the players in the NBA the rest of the players in the NFL the rest of the players in professional hockey, professional baseball, et cetera. We want to provide people with a clean product that they can trust. Let's talk for a second about how you got involved with WOOP. So we meet in 2014. I've been fortunate to have you an advisor to the company since then. And what got you excited about WOOP when we first started talking about it?

Um, you know, I think it was in, uh, yeah, you said it was 2014 where we, um, where we, where we met and, uh, started talking about the company. I was excited because here was this new technology that if, if done the right way, which obviously, you know, we have, um, could be extremely beneficial to, uh, to, to, to, to, to professional athletes, uh, and not, not on pro athletes, but, you know, folks that, uh, that have a regular the 95, et cetera. Right. Here we can basically unlock, like, the body's recovery process, and we can unlock analytics. You know, how can we get better as an athlete, you know, or as an everyday athlete, you know, and this is something that, you know, I said, wow, you know, if you can pull this off,

I'm all in. And so here we are. Well, you, the thing that I really appreciated was that you understood the importance of the other 20 hours of the day. Yeah. Like that was, that was a lot of the, I think,

the mission behind founding whoop or the secret behind founding whoop was that the other 20 hours of the day are underrated, right? There's such a big focus on exercise. And yet there's less of a focus on what you're doing the rest of the day,

how you're sleeping, all these things. And so at a time, which to be fair, was very early in the company's days and a lot of people were telling me I was going to fail. It was refreshing to hear from you,

like, no, this is a great way to think about it. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It was, and even back then, I was, that's where my mind was at. It's, if nothing else, it helped validate what we're already doing. True, yeah. And what I was already telling, not only LJ, but other athletes was, you know, the importance of sleep and recovery. And I think in 2010, we think we had the NBA lockout, 2010 or 11, we had the NBA lockout.

When we came back from that, it was a shortened season. And we had to, you know, sometimes sometimes we played three games. in a row right and so that's when you know all of the conversations that we're having on sleep all the conversations we had on recovery that's when they came into fruition because the team and the athletes that were most recovered and who got the most rest were the ones that were winning and guess what we just that whole season we were focused like like none other of being the the most rested the most recovered and the most conditioned team and the most conditioned player that the that the NBA you know had at that time and that's when he won not only

an MVP trophy but an NBA championship and that was at first yeah well congratulations and for you in wearing whoop what are some things you've learned about your body like how do you like to use the technology um not don't you know for me it's not really about counting calories or counting heart rate but for me it's about okay how much how can I be a better recovered you know and you know am i getting enough sleep you know and uh if i sleep six hours what does that mean for my recovery if i sleep eight hours which is almost a rarity right you know what does that mean for my recovery and for my performance the next day you know because um at the end of the day i'm still a husband up so a father you know i'm still a provider so uh i have to be the you know the MVP for

my family you know and you're a guy who travels all the time right we just talked about how you guys got in at three last night when you were supposed to get in at, you know, maybe 10, right? What are some things that you're going to do today to try to recalibrate yourself and other members of the team? Well, my schedule is all dependent on our athletes. You know, if a player needs something, you know, an hour from now, then I have to be there. You know, if it's, you know, at 8 o'clock at night before they go out to dinner, then I'm there. You know, so my schedule is always, always, you know, revolves around them.

But for me personally, I think from here, I'll, you know, we're up and moving, so let's start the day off a little workout, you know, 20, 30 minutes, just something light, some cardio, maybe some body weight training. And we have the Nutrify, you know, so we're going to go out and have a nice meal and just be, you know, be on call basically for our guys. If I can get a little spin in later, then... Do a little two a day today. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know.

So you mentioned get a good meal, and I know you're someone personally who's tweaked your own diet. Oh, yeah, yeah. What do you think is over-hyped today in nutrition, and what are some things you're excited about? I think some of the stuff that's over-hyped right now is the fact that you have to stick with one way, and that's it. Like, you know, some people go vegan, you know, 24-7,

some people go paleo, you know, some people doing this keto thing. There are a lot of trends out there, but I think the most important thing for me that I would suggest that I would recommend is that, you know, just try to balance it out. Just try to balance it out. You know, if you can't go all paleo, then, you know, then just, you know, it's okay to have a little cheat meal, you know, every now and then. If you can't go full vegan, then you know, have a, you know, just, just figure it out, you know, find out what works for you and just, you know, be balanced.

It's okay to, you know, to follow up the wagon a little bit. So experimentation is a recurring theme. Yeah, yeah, exactly. What kind of a diet do you have today? I'm mostly a plant-based diet. Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah. So I do primarily vegan options, you know, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

And if you think about training philosophies, I mean, right now there's a lot of different classes popping up across the country. Oh, yeah. You know, for the guy who's listening, who's a weekend warrior, who's trying to get to, back into shape what do you what do you think are good workouts that you know there's things like orange theory there's Barry's boot camp there's soul cycle there's Pilates there's now

things like Pelotan which are an at-home cycling studio there's all these different products out there what are you know if you were to just make a recommendation to someone who's trying to get into more classes trying to take things up a notch what do you like that's out there

if guys are you know if guys and ladies want to really push themselves to the next level um there's a class that i uh you know i'm not a paid in torture but there's a there's a there's a there's a company out there called rise nation and they do a 30 minute versa climber classes oh yeah you've been telling me about the versa climber yeah and then the versa climbers is uh is a is a piece of machinery that that that we fell in love with gosh like 10 10 12 years ago and describe what the versa climber looks like it's it's a it's just a it's a a standalone kind of a pole with handles and pedals so you're constantly doing like this up

like an uphill climb it's like an uphill elliptical almost where you're just climbing pretty much yeah yeah you know you have to use your arms you have to use your legs it's a perpetual rock climbing yeah exactly what it looks like yeah yeah and and your core has to be strong and stable you know to stabilize your body throughout these movements so it's a very very challenging workout but it's a very beneficial one at the same time. Is that a machine that you guys now have in your gym too? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, we have them in our home gyms. We have them, you know, wherever we go. You know, we make sure that those teams and those facilities have a versatile climber. Now, how about from a recovery standpoint, say you're an athlete who works out a lot, but you find that as you're getting older, you've got more muscle soreness or you're having trouble doing two or three days in a row of tough workouts what are some things that professional athletes are doing today that you recommend um you know people try i know like cryotherapy is an example of something that's out there cryotherapy is big you know for recovery and for just

you know it helps helps release endorphins so you you like cryotherapy oh yeah yeah i do yeah i do i think we've had great success with that you know for for several years now um and how often will you do cryotherapy we'll do um it all depends you know we we can do like a a general like you know you've seen the the stand-up cryotherapy chambers yeah um you know that that that's one example of of a full body cryotherapy we can do that once every three days okay so it's still pretty often yeah if you have access to that yeah um and then you have the uh the localized treatments you know just just put an ice bag around your knees or on your back or on your ankles you know that we do probably twice a day.

Do you have any opinion on ice bags versus like hopping in an ice bath? Well, obviously the amount of coverage, you know, the amount of coverage that the bath will give you, you know, it's probably a little more beneficial. But if you don't have access to that, then we use a product called Hyper Ice. And Hyper Ice, you know, they do. I love the Hyper Ice Ice Ice is amazing. Not only, not only do they have, you know, ice bags, if you will, but they use, they have like great recovery products like foam rollers and vibrating foam rollers, etc.

And we just got introduced us to this new product called Kelvi. And that's something that's just fresh on the market. And it's a picture of an ice wrap, but without you having to use ice and water. It's all electric. Oh, that's cool. And we're pretty excited about the launching of that as well. And the hyper is, do you use that, it's like a, what am I trying to say? It's like a screwdriver almost, but with a foam roller at the end.

Oh, yeah, yeah, the, like machine gun. Yeah, it's called the hypervolt. The hypervolt, yeah. And the hypervolt is something that's, uh, that we started. We were actually one, the first NBA, NBA team and NBA players to, to use it. Again, experimentation. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, you know, the whole world knows that what I'm all about and it's, it's all about

being on the cutting edge of recovery of performance. And so, you know, you get calls and you get e-mails from different companies, but you have to be very selective. Well, I imagine you get thousands of those. Yeah, yeah. But I think what's cool is that you also follow up on the ones that seem intriguing and you try it yourself. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Now, the couple other techniques, how do you feel about general massage therapy, acupuncture, cupping, things like that? I love all that, you know, I love all that. Again, you know, you don't want to go overboard with doing all of those things, you know, especially on the same day. Yeah, of course. You just have to be smart, you know. Maybe today calls for more of a cupping session.

And two days from now, you know, maybe you need some acupuncture or dry needling. You know, and then some days you just need a recovery flush, you know, a leg massage. Some days you need some electrical stem, you know, for bits of, for, for, for, for, you just need a recovery flesh, you know, and then, you know, you know, you know, you know, and then some, for, for, you just for, you just for, particular muscle. You know, there's dozens of tools. There's hundreds and thousands of tools actually out there. But you have to just, you know, be smart and be smart in how you use them. Now, are there any of those things that you wouldn't do on the day of a game or the day before a game? On the day of a game, I wouldn't do any, like, dry needling and something that's going to make you sore. Okay. Yeah. And... It's great for recovery and treatment, though.

And what if you're low energy, right? And you're, right? And you're, you know, and you're, you have to perform like it's noon on the day of a game and I come to you and I'm like hey Mike I just feel tired right now yeah yeah what will you recommend uh depending on how much time we have um let's say you had seven hours yeah I had seven hours then then I would um I would advise you you know first off I see you know what are you eating when was the last time you ate sure okay and then um and then I would ask you about your sleep how much sleep did you get the night before and if the answer was really really low then I frankly I'd recommend uh you'd recommend a you know, a short nap. You know, sometimes all you need is like a 20-minute nap,

especially if you're trying to get ready for a game. You know, sometimes you just need a 20-30-minute nap depending on your schedule. But from, you know, then I'll ask you about, again, as far as nutrition goes, okay, how much water are you drinking? How many, how much electrolytes, you know, do you have in your system? So it's not just, just, okay, here's a cup of coffee, you know, have that it. It's about what have you been doing. Um, you know, up until this point and why, and to try to figure out, you know, do some reverse engineering, why are you tired? Are you a fan of, uh, using caffeine as a stimulant during, like, for a game or for a practice

or for a workout? Um, yes, I am. But, uh, again, you have to be smart on, on your dosages. Um, you know, I'm not, I'm not a big fan of just gulping down, you know, a big, uh, a sugary energy drink or something like that. Something where you, you know, you feel like your heart's going to beat out of your chest, you know, 20 minutes before a workout. That's one of the things as far as, like, talking about our ladder product is, you know, we do offer a pre-workout powder drink that, again, that the LeBron takes before a game. And it's just, it's simple, it's clean, and it's certified, you know, you're not going to feel jittery, but it will give you just that, just that a quick boost of energy before a workout.

And so that does have a little bit of caffeine? It does have just a little bit of caffeine. Would you say it's more or less than the equivalent of a cup of coffee? I'd say it's about the same. That's the same coffee. Yeah. Okay. Are there any other products that come to mind that you think are interesting right now from a recovery standpoint, sleep?

And another one that we use that we use it for a while is called Norma Tech. Yeah, right. Yeah. I know G at Norma Tech. Yeah, great guy. Great guy. And he's, you know, we've had a great. Um, you know, it's never been a sponsorship. It's never been a monetary thing. It's just, you know,

I just, I believe in their product. So, well, I've used Norma Tech too and I think it's a good product. Um, what are some, uh, other recommendations you have to, for our audience listening, you know, these are people who may be monitoring themselves are super interested in how to improve performance. Yeah. Are there any tips or techniques that may not be that obvious that you would recommend? You know what from, you know, we, we've touched on sleep being very important. We talk about nutrition and hydration let's not forget you know not only do you have to eat right but you also have to hydrate yourself with uh with water and if you're if you're if you're an athlete you know some water with some electrolytes well you've had an uh an incredible career mike

talk about some of the the memorable highlights for you um i think number one was um you know it's it's uh it's almost obvious but our very first championship yeah man that's got to be Yeah, it was very rewarding for him, for our team, for everyone that's been around us in our process since they won, you know, our friends, our family. And for me, it was like almost a little validation. It was just that, you know, as an athlete trainer, that you had just a little bit of influence, you know, that you're part of that, that your work was able to help a player and the team, you know, build this, this, this, you know, historical season. Well, 100%.

And part of the reason you guys won was because you came back, right? I mean, it was the Spurs series, if I'm not mistaken. Oh, the very first one was the Oklahoma City Thunder. Oh, okay, excuse me. Yeah, and that was during the lockout. Okay, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Now, the next series that you guys won was that comeback series against the Spurs.

Against the Spurs. That was incredible. That was incredible. There was that famous three-pointer that Ray Allen hit. There was a famous, you know. They were bringing the trophy out onto the court. Yeah. I mean, that's how much they, everyone thought the game was over.

Yeah, they had the yellow ropes out, you know, to control the crowd, right? And so before the Ray Allen shot, you know, there was a big three-pointer by LeBron. Yeah. There was some misfree throws on the other end by the other team. And then there was a huge rebound by Chris Bosch, who had just that court vision to fight. mind Ray and to know that Ray was in the corner. Yeah, oh my gosh. And Ray, before the shot, he had that, again, that court sense and that court vision

to know where his feet were to move. It was amazing. To take that little half step back to make sure he was behind a three-point line. And then Ray was just Ray, you know. And then once he hit that shot, you know, it was destiny. Yeah, it felt like it. Because you guys still had to win another game, right? We had to win one more game, yeah.

Yeah. Now, listening to you describe that, it sounds like you've got a bit of a photographic memory for basketball. I mean, you've definitely watched over 10,000 hours to Malcolm Gladwell's point. Oh, yeah, yeah. Are there ever things in your mind from just the point of view of being an observer of the game that you think about? Like, has the game evolved in your mind? I mean, obviously, three-point shootings, now very popular. Yeah, yeah, it's extremely popular now.

You know, I always take a step back and tell everyone, you know, I got the best seat of the house, you know, night in and night out. Totally. You know, so I'm very fortunate for that. But the way the game has evolved is, you know, guys are being more aware. As far as me, and, you know, I'm not talking about X's and O's. Sure. But just from my standpoint, the game has evolved in a sense of where the guys are a lot more educated in the process, you know, and in not only recovery, but in performance. you know how can i get the most out of my career out of my body etc you have to you have to have

you have to have that time for yourself you know and visualize the day visualize the week visualize the game you know visualize what kind of season you want you know to have it's all extremely important and mental health is as has come to the forefront here um recently with guys not only in the NBA but but other sports um as being one one of the focal points and uh points of emphasis for professional athletes. And that's one thing that must be addressed is your mental health. Well, it's a great point. Adam Silver had a really interesting segment recently where he talked about how he felt

that actually a lot of players in the NBA weren't happy. And I thought it was, you know, I thought it was pretty smart of him to bring it up and to touch upon it. Because even though these are young athletes making millions of dollars, you're on the road a lot, you're stuck on your phone a lot. It can be lonely. and if you don't have the right, you know, practices in place, maybe you can lose sight of just the bigger picture and how great things are.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and you have to give yourself and find resources to help you, you know, to help you cope with, you know, with what you might be, you know, experiencing and dealing with. You know, it's always, it always looks like it's, you know, glamorous and fun and, you know, everything's great and everything is great and everything is. roses but you know you do have to just take a step back and and make sure you don't lose sight

of the big picture and that's your overall health well i i appreciate that mike and look i really appreciate all the work that we've gotten to do together absolutely it's been awesome love having you on whoop love all your feedback on the product and and look we'll keep growing together absolutely i'm i'm excited for it i'm excited for the next phase of uh woof all right well thanks for coming on, Mike. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks again to Mike for coming on.

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