WHOOP Podcast - Olympian Gabby Thomas discusses consistency, visualization, and the mental side of running

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

Gabby Thomas is one of the fastest women on earth and is a two-time Olympic medalist, but she’s so much more than just an athlete. Gabby graduated from Harvard, where she studied neurobiology and global health, and is currently studying for her Master’s degree in epidemiology at the University of Texas at Austin, all while maintaining her elite training schedule. Gabby joins the WHOOP Podcast to discuss her journey to running (2:12), how the difference between peak performance and poor performance is the matter of hundredths of a second (8:46), her academic pursuits (10:15), using WHOOP (13:24), recovery behaviors (15:10), the mental side of running (21:35), the importance of sleep (32:00), muscle recovery (36:06), nutrition (39:16), being thankful for good health (43:26), and her goals beyond running (46:51).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

What's up, folks? Welcome back to the WOOP podcast where we sit down with top athletes, researchers, scientists, and more to learn what the best in the world are doing to perform at their peak on and off the field. And what you can do to unlock your own best performance. I'm your host, Will Amit, founder and CEO of Woop, where we are on a mission to unlock human performance. We've got a great guest this week. Gabby Thomas. Gabby's one of the best runners on the planet, recently just brought home a silver and bronze medal at the Tokyo Olympics. And what's also amazing about Gabby, is she was one of our early whoop users and testers when she was actually a student at Harvard. That's right. She graduated from Harvard where she studied neurobiology and global health, so that's not a joke, and is currently studying for her master's degree and epidemiology at the University of Texas at Austin. She discusses what she's learned about the importance of consistency.

The role WOOP plays in her training and recovery. She had some great insights into optimizing for recovery. Her experience at the Olympics. Dealing with the health scare before the Olympic trials and how that powered her performance to make the Olympic team. The role visualization plays in her success and why she's passionate about public health. A reminder, you can get on Woop if you use the code Will, you'll get 15. percent off. That's just W ILL. And we have an all new 4.0 available to reserve now. All right. Without further ado, here is Gabby Thomas. Okay, Gabby. Welcome to the WOOP podcast. Oh, thank you.

Thanks for having me on here. So you've had an amazing career at quite a young age. You're 24 years old. You just got back from Tokyo. Olympic medalist. You must be feeling pretty good about that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go back. We'll get to all the recent success. I mean, I also love all the titles that you want at Harvard. Let's go back to just, you know, you're a young girl. What inspired you to start running? Honestly, I, you know, I started with sports. You know, my mom was super passionate about having my twin brother and I just do sports growing up. And I started with soccer and I was always the fastest one on the field. And honestly, a lot of us track athletes kind of start out with soccer.

kind of realized you have this gift for running and that at some point in middle school my mom kind of forced me to join the track team because I initially wanted to do softball. But, you know, she didn't really give me the option. So I ended up joining the team. And I fell in love with it after that just hanging out with the other athletes and having a good time. I was naturally gifted at it. And, you know, when I started like developing and creating these goals for myself, I just started to love the sport more and more. And at what point did you realize that you were really good at it. Probably my first race in seventh grade. Did you beat everyone by an embarrassing amount? It was, yeah, it was a pretty good amount. I mean, granted, I wasn't in,

you know, I wasn't running in like Florida and Georgia, like all these other pros were running in. You know, I was running in Massachusetts and, you know, at a prep school division. So it wasn't, you know, the most competitive, but I was, I was running really fast. So yeah, I knew, pretty quickly. And in high school, how did you decide that you wanted to go to Harvard? That happened pretty quickly. I was choosing between a few schools. I hadn't really thought about running collegiately, actually, until my counselor had recommended it to me. And then, you know, these coaches started reaching out to me. And what differentiated Harvard from the other schools was the culture around the team. So I went somewhere where I could excel like academically and

athletically. And when I did my official visit to Harvard and just kind of, you know, stayed with the girls and met the coach. They just had this really awesome culture of wanting to be great and just trying to get results and like putting their best foot forward. And that's kind of a hard balance to get with, you know, all the schools. It's kind of like they're either focused primarily on sports or primarily on academics. And Harvard just had a perfect like balance of both with other things that I could do to. And I mean, I think I was right. I mean, Harvard set me up for a great foundation for my career afterwards. And it all kind of happened organically. You know, I didn't expect to be running in high school. I didn't expect to be running in

college. I didn't expect to be running pro. But I think every environment that I was in kind of set me up for the next. In your freshman year or sophomore year, did it become obvious to you that you were going to go pro? A sophomore year, it wasn't even a thought. Sophomore year, at the end of sophomore year, I was ready to quit track. I just kind of ended my season very early and didn't do a postseason. and just went abroad. I didn't even know that going pro and track was really a thing until I did it. I didn't realize that it was actually something that I could make a living off of. I knew that some people had, you know, they were running post-collegiately because they loved track, but I thought, you know, you had to be like a Usain Bolt to even begin to start making

money and actually be able to do it. So when I realized that that was actually a possibility, that wasn't until right before senior year. Talk a little bit about how you get better at running. I mean, this probably sounds like a dumb question. No, it's not. I hear all these different stories about athletes later in their careers, finding their peak and running. Obviously, you're doing events 100 meter, 200 meter. Even at Harvard, you were winning the indoor 60 meter.

Those are much faster events. So obviously, strength plays a big role. And your body's development plays a big role. Yeah, I can't tell you how to get faster at anything longer. than a 400 because I just would never train for that. But when it comes to the shorter distances, I mean, at Harvard, I think what got me better at it was focusing on the fundamentals. We were very specific about everything down from, you know, the angles, your shin angles and foot angles and how they're striking the ground to your posture, your posture being a huge part of it,

the way. You have very good posture, by the way. I like to pay attention to posture. I notice you have great posture at the Olympics. Thank you. That took years of practice and being yelled at and kicked off the track if I did not have good posture. So that, you know, it's just such a big thing. Those small, those small angles and positions of your body when it comes to sprinting just make the tiniest bit of a difference. But then those tiny, you know, thousands of a second will add up with each step, which each step that you take when you're sprinting and then it turns into a hundredth of a second. And that's a difference between the gold medal and a silver metal. And then the 10 is a difference to making a final and not making. a final. So it's that focus on the really, really small things that gets you better at sprinting. What do you feel like around what age? Let's take the 100 meters. So how fast you run the 100 meters? Like when I started? Yeah. Well, just today, how fast do you run it? Oh, how fast could I run it? I run 10-9 in Jacksonville. Okay. So 10-9, at what point and at what age did you kind of make the biggest jump, you know, towards that number. Like, how long were you going from 11-1 to 10-9 versus,

you know, like you were able to shave a whole second or something, you know? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, so from high school to college, you just jump, right? That's pretty standard. Everyone gets... You just get stronger. Your body's developed more. Yeah, exactly. I think the biggest jump that I, that I've made was this year, 2020, 20-21 season. You know, it was awesome. Well, yeah. It was kind of my first year post-college because I graduated in 2019 and the 2020 was taken. So we didn't really get to see what my post-collegiate training was going to look like and how, you know, what the output was going to be. But I think it was kind of, it was consistently better. So I was consistently running faster than that's when you see the big drops of time. So that probably happened in May, April, May, 2021, when I started to really see the results. Talk about peaking at the right time. That's what's all about as an Olympian. Yeah.

I mean, it's tough, especially as a U.S. athlete, because there are so many of us who are so good in track and field. So you want to peak at trials. And then you also either, you know, you want to hold that peak for the Olympics or you want to like drift and do a second peak. So it's like, what are you going to do? But you got to peak for trials. That's just like you have to bring your A game because making the Olympic team is the first thing you have to do and the first and foremost thing that you have to worry about. Now, given what a short thing. period of time we're talking about. We're talking about 10, 11 seconds here. Describe, you

know, if you were to run your very best race versus run your very worst race. Let's not talk about injury or something about that. Like, how big of a gap is that? Is that half a second? Or are we talking hundreds of a second? You would hope not. I mean, there are definitely people who run half a second. Yeah, a bad day for them will be, you know, like an 11, four maybe and then their best will be a 10-9 type thing that definitely happens but you want to set it up for like you know your bad day is just not going to be that and that's kind of the mentality that I want to trials is kind of like okay I might not race my best but I want my bad day to be good enough to make the team so I mean in a hundred meter you really want to see a consistency

where like you're not you're not varying by more than 0.3 seconds in a race now is that something that you also found in your career there was a moment in time where you're like you just narrowed what that window could be. Yeah, exactly. That's where I'm at now. And I think that's part of like the professionalism of the sport. You know, when you're in college, it's kind of like you race. You don't know what's going to happen. It's really okay. Now that we're professionals, you want to have that consistency. You want to go to a meet and, you know, people know what to expect from you. You know what to expect from yourself. If you surprise yourself in a good way, then that's great. That's awesome. But that consistency is really, really important.

Now that's so interesting. So at Harvard, you also took a really interesting course load. What exactly did you study at Harvard? I did. So I studied neurobiology and then I minored in global health and health policy and then got a citation in French. So kind of your typical athlete. Well, the cool thing about the Harvard team is like there were other girls who were doing neuro. I think there was a whole like there was a good bit of us. So like I had people that like give me advice and encourage me to do it. So I didn't feel like I was, you know, biting off more than I could chew. I played squash at Harvard and I was on the team at the same time as Ali Farag, who, and Ali's now number one in the world and the best squash play in the world. But it was crazy because he was like an electrical engineering major. And so, you know, he had this, like, insane workload and it was impressive. But I think that's something people underestimate about Harvard athletes. athletes is many athletes take on a very real workload. And it sounds like you did that. Right. I mean, you have this huge workload. And you're also doing a bunch of other things,

right? Like at Harvard, you're not even just doing work in sports. Like you're doing clubs and you're like going to events and you're doing all these fun other stuff that Harvard has to offer. So it's like so multifaceted. And then to like be able to focus and and be fully committed to a sport. It's crazy. It just takes so much. Well, you know, that chaos that you just described is is what inspired me to start Woop. Like, I was an athlete who used to over-trained, and I felt like I didn't know what I was doing in my body, you know, 24 hours of the day. And it turned out, you know, just having a great practice wasn't enough to be peaking as

an athlete. You know, you had to think about sleep and recovery and all these things. So that's really where the origin of Woop came from. It's actually, it's so interesting. And it honestly shocks me. I think that I appreciate it so much because I am an athlete. but the amount, like the, it's the lack of attention that so many people pay to their actual well-being and recovery and energy that amazes me on a daily basis, even athletes and

non-athletes, people are constantly overextending themselves. And I just see it firsthand all the time. And it's like, if only I wish you could just know, I wish you would measure, like, how recovered you are, how your body's feeling or how you're, even how you're, like, mentally feeling because people are just constantly running around and doing so much, especially today and like this day and age with all the technology and how everything's so quick and instant. I'm just amazed and wowed by it. For me, as a professional athlete and even in college, I needed to have like less chaos. I needed to be focused on the recovery piece and the relaxing.

Otherwise, I just, I don't think I would be able to perform not just on the track, but in school or just even in social settings. Yeah, totally. I mean, How long have you been on whoop now? Well, sheesh, since 2015, so that like almost. So you're almost in like the beta, the beta group of people we were testing stuff with, right? I wasn't in the beta group, yeah. We've come a long way, Gabby. Oh, man, I've come a long way too.

Yeah, but we've come a long way. I remember when I first got the whoop. And that's, I'm really, really grateful that's something that my coach was really passionate about. And, you know, he wanted to be involved in whoop. and introduce us to that because that's where I really developed my foundation for, you know, focusing on recovery and, you know, taking care of myself because I am just not sure that I would have developed that kind of consciousness without my coach and without that woo. I remember he honestly used to force us to wear it to practice because he really, he thought

it was that important. He was like, you need to have this on every day. I need to be able to see what's going on so I can tailor your training accordingly. And we were like rolling our eyes. We're like, okay, sure, we'll put it on. But it just became, it became ingrained to me, right? Yeah, totally. That's how I started my career, you know, like wearing this loop and paying attention to that kind of stuff.

It was like embodied into my training, you know? And it's like I don't know any other way now. And I don't know how people can go about their lives or even their athletic lives and not be paying attention to this type of stuff. It's so weird. Obviously, I completely agree with you. but it's obviously very cool to see the impact that the products had on your career and obviously the amazing success that you've had.

What are some things that you've observed in your WOOP data that you've, like, found are helpful for your performance? Like, what are some things, for example, that you're looking at in the WOOP journal? Yeah, so I've started doing this like just a lot more like actually using the journal thing as a professional athlete. The biggest one for me, or the two biggest ones for me that were shocking, was one just like the time that I'm eating, that's just something that I wasn't willing to accept in college or even like care to look at. And I think it was kind of like I didn't want to know.

Time before bed. Yeah. How like how right before, like if you're eating right before bed or even just a couple hours before bed, it just has a shocking impact on my recovery when I wake up. You know, with all the other controls accounted for. And same with alcohol. Alcohol was the craziest dip in recovery that you just don't expect. It'll just take you straight. to the red zone, which, you know, you hate to wake up and see red. Right. Totally. Yeah. And I'm just like, wow, did everything else the same? Even get, you know, an adequate amount of sleep, you know, just still to see that, it's like, wow, that actually makes a huge difference. So I had to cut like my evening wine out of my routine.

I just used to love to do that. But when I got to, you know, the serious training, I was like, well, I just can't afford to do this and then wake up and expect a train at the same, like, caliber as I'd like to. What else did I look at? Sharing a bed, like sleeping with my dog, something that also kind of affect, I was shocked to see that it affected it. Poorly? Yeah, poorly. Dogs can be feisty. Yeah, not something I'm willing to give up. I love sleeping with my pug, but, you know. Maybe it's just not the night. Let me ask you a question, because there were some funny viral stories about this. Were the beds at the Olympics very uncomfortable? Oh my gosh. Yes. like shockingly so and the problem wasn't even the cardboard like the cardboard is okay just don't jump

on your bed you'll be fine right but it's a the was a mattress made out of cardboard too the pillows too it was so shocking and what has me a little bit bitter was the fact that you know all the throwers got the nice mattresses what the rest of us just didn't um I guess because their body types they're like just naturally like they have to be heavier to do their event and so I imagine that they just needed more support. I really don't know. But doesn't this piss you off? It kind of pissed me off.

I mean, like, here you guys are. You're training four years to peak on one, two, three days. And all of a sudden, we're just going to put you on cardboard. Like, what? Shocking. Who is approving that as a strategy? Who's like, this is the right time for cardboard mattresses? This is the right time for cardboard.

Like, yeah, of all places and times in the world. Yeah, this is it. Yeah, no. I was shocked too. I'm like, really? The Olympics. Now, the New York Post reported, so you'd say it was a grander's home, New York Post reported that it was to prevent Olympians from having sex.

Is that true or that's not true? I highly doubt that was true. There's no way that was true. Okay. So to me, it's like, that's the most bizarre thing. Did you notice that you were sleeping worse in Tokyo? Definitely did. And in fact, to the point where I actually just couldn't even look at my loop because it does

on an event like that. And I could have been completely fine. Like my recovery could have been fine, but I didn't want to know. That's just not a time to want to know anything. If you know yourself and you know you might get in your head about it. I think for Olympians, especially in your sport, almost just assuming you're a green recovery on game days better.

Yeah. It's interesting, you know, if you're playing day in, day out, or you're playing a tournament every weekend, And I've talked to a lot of athletes who will try to use that information almost to guide how they play or how they think about warming up or this or that. I think when I go to every other regular track meet, I'm wearing my whoop. I want to know, I want to know exactly how that competition affected me. I want to know if anything that I did before competition or after competition makes a difference.

So 100%. And then you learn from that. The only two competitions where I just will not wear it will be, you know, trials and the Olympic games. But 100%, if it's any other meat, it's beneficial to have that information. Now, at the trials, do you get to sleep on a real mattress or do they have you on the Oh, yeah, yeah, in trials, we have the hotels. Okay, good. Yeah, so there you go.

That probably helped. Oh, yeah. And then it was also with COVID, you know, the U.S. team, we could only get out there five days before our event started. And we didn't do a camp, you know, over in Tokyo or that time zone like the other countries did. So we also were kind of battling that, that type of recovery. And that jet lag is real. And for most people, it kicks in, you know, three to five days after getting to the destination. Like jet lag gets really intense during that those, that time frame. I mean, it was just brutal. And then put that on

top of the beds. The beds thing pisses me off. So I'm curious. When you, when you race like a 200 meters, 200 meter dash what is like your max heart rate get to will you almost top ticket or is it almost not long enough to to get there oh um yeah no it actually does not get to what my top usually is like in training and i can't remember the exact number that it's been a while since i've been in training to be honest i you're probably around like a 200 max heart rate it's in the we did a a youtube video on it where we actually looked at it lifetime on one of our harder interval workouts my training partner and I'm Orlikay. It's actually a really cool video.

But we actually use our route literally, like in the middle of training. Oh, good. Yeah, we use it. Like, we actually pull out the app and we're like, oh, this is our heart rate right right now. We have two more minutes of rest. I wonder if we're going to be fully recovered for this. And I like to see, like, as we go through the season, how recovered I get in that time. Because we know, we do the same workout.

Well, heart rate recovery is what you're describing. And so for folks listening right now, you essentially try to get your heart rate up. And then, you know, if you've got two minutes to rest, you want to see how low your heart rate will actually drop. If you're less fit or you're really tired, the heart rate recovery will be slower. Like your heart rate actually won't drop as quickly. Whereas if you're very fit or you're peaking physically, you can have really dramatic heart rate drops. And I bet your heart rate recovery is awesome. Yeah, it was looking pretty awesome.

In the video, it was actually pretty awesome too. So I was like, oh, yes. They caught us on a good day. Yeah, but during race day, nah, it doesn't get quite as high as it does during those hard training days. So let's talk about race day. How much mental work are you doing in terms of visualizing the whole experience and what kind of a practice is that like for you? A lot of mental. A lot of mental work. I mean, so much of the race is mental. Race day I wake up, do my visualizations, do my meditation. Also something that I picked up from Harvard, track and field. It was incorporated into our warm up on any hard day, and especially in competition days. And then it's still part of my competition warm up, right?

It's picturing and visualizing the race at big competitions. Obviously, I envisioned myself winning. You know, I envisioned it probably 100 times before I actually run the race. And do you see yourself in the first person or the third person? Oh, I see myself in the third person. That's a really funny question. So you're like seeing yourself holding. Yeah, I see myself.

Yeah. It's interesting. Some athletes, it's through their own eyes, and some athletes, it's in the third person. I never even thought about that. Yeah, it's definitely third person. I like to see myself actually doing it. And then also just calms you down, right? It just everything, just your brain chemistry and the hormones, just taking a minute to do the breathing work, to do the visualizations.

It's really helpful. I think it'd be interesting to see the effects of meditation, unlike my recovery with the whoop, too. I have not journaled that one. but during times when I'm like really on my meditation, you know, my, my 10, 20 minutes a day versus when I'm just kind of skipping out on it. Oh, skip out on it, Gabby. It's key. Yeah, I know.

I know. I've been off of it during this off season. I can't even look at my thing right now. I don't even want to know. Well, you deserve a little rest right now. Right. So when you would meditate or when you do meditate, what does that look like? First thing in the morning or before you exercise?

Yeah. It's first thing in the morning usually, and it's completely focusing on breathing. Like when I'm just doing general meditation and not, you know, worried about competition, literally just focusing on my breathing. And it's okay to like have other thoughts pop in here and there, but just trying to pinpoint it and focus on it. Yeah, parasympathetic. Yeah, just think in and out.

When it comes to competition, it's really more just envisioning the race. And then I might do the breathing work afterwards. And the warm up beforehand, is that, you know, a big stretch? Will you actually run the race a couple times? Like, sorry, I mean, not obviously the race, but will you run the distance a couple times or not? Nope, nope, warm up will be, it'll start off just general dynamic movement. Then I move into the stretching, meditation, and then after that, I do my sprints.

So if I'm warming up for a 200, I might run like a 120. I might do two 120s before. I go. I'm not going to do the whole race. It might freak me out a little bit. I feel a little tired, be like, oh, God. And then do some block starts. What's the philosophy on a great block start? Oh, block start. Oh, gosh, that's something that I really worked on this year. And I've gotten a lot better at, especially my reaction time. I think the best thing I could do for a block start is just be so anticipate that sound and be ready for the for the cue. So what I do is I, I, I, I hear it.

I wait for the sound and then I just punch, like, punch my arm in the air. And that's, like, my key to get, like, the reaction time that I want. Everyone's different on cues. But you just need to anticipate it, but not so much so that, you know, you fall start because that's the worst thing you can do in a race, right? It's false start. And it happens so often. And this season, it happens so often at the Olympics and that trial.

It was so unfortunate, you know, to just work so hard to get there and fall start. But, yeah, it's like anticipating that. You know, obviously, if you do. don't have the best reaction time. It's not the end-all, but in their race, like the 60 or the 100, you know, like I said, in a metal. Yeah. So it's having that reflex.

And you can practice that. You know, you have to practice it. That's, you know, it's all you can do is practice that anticipation and that reflex. So obviously the visualization is super important. And then in terms of running the race, I mean, do you find that it's almost just like that? Or do you find that you're maybe so focused on it that that 10 or 11 seconds actually feels like a long period of time? Oh, in the 100, yeah, no, in the 100, it feels like a long time.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, it's especially because I'm less comfortable with that right now and I'm still actually working on it. So, you know, making the 4 by team, 4 by 1 team was huge for me. Because I wasn't sure if I wanted to go down and do the 100 or if I wanted to go up and do the 400 at trials because, you know, my speed spots at 200. And so that, I made that decision maybe two days before I flew into Eugene to run. Because the race is, it's just so many pieces that I feel like I haven't mastered yet.

And there's, there's so much that goes into a 100 that people don't realize. Like starting, you know, you have to focus on the block start, right? And focus on that anticipation. The level of focus you need is so, I think, you know, underappreciated. Like at an elite level, no, you need to be so focused for that. Very present, right, I would think. Very present. There, yeah.

And then after that, it's driving, right? you need to focus on that drive phase. And then I think what is the most difficult part is transitioning out of that dry phase. And that's where a lot of people mess up and you don't notice it when you're just watching it and you don't have the eye for track. But it's like transitioning out of that drive phase can really make or break your race. It can like set you up for the end of your race. In terms of how you're actually like standing up almost as you run.

Like how you're, yeah, exactly, how you're just coming out of it. You just need to have that, you know, the back end. I don't even know what you would call it. So the swimming analogy is like they dive in and then they come up and start, you know, swimming. It's almost like that, right? It's like that moment you come up. Yeah, it's that moment you come up, but it has to be gradual to set you up for the rest of the race.

So you come out of it and you transition out of it and then you want to hit, but you want to and then you want to maintain and then you can't be accelerating the entire time. And that's going to be your top end speed. And then you want to maintain that top end speed as much as you can and try not to decelerate as much as you can. And that's going to be, you know, probably the wins. The commentators talk about, oh, so and so has a great kick or, you know, someone comes out of the block fast, but then they're kind of flat or someone's like always kind of catching at the end. Do you think much about your competitors and how they might be, you know,

doing that stuff around you or is it just? Yeah. Is it you versus time? That's an interesting question. Everyone's super different. For me, you know, I'm aware of it. So I, I, I like to be somewhat aware that way there's no panicking when I see what someone else is doing because my specific style is, yeah, I kick at the end. Like I'm not going to be the first one to 40 meters and then try to hold on. I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to try to build as much as I can. And then my transition is going to be that kick at the end of the race. So I'll be aware.

I'll know, okay, if someone's really far ahead of me at 50 meters, that's really okay because they're probably going to decelerate a lot faster than I'm going to decelerate. So, you know, be aware of your competition because it is a race, it is a competition. You want to, you know, know, know what's going on around you, but definitely focusing on just my own race and how I execute and what, you know, my strategy and what my plan is. It's important in the 100 and especially in the 200 for me. And then as I work on the 400, too, then 400's a whole other thing. There are so many different strategies and race plans you can do.

So who are some athletes could be in track and field or beyond that you look up to or you were buyer or you've learned something from. I mean, definitely Allison Felix. She is just outstanding. She's had such a long career and just a very, very consistent career. And she's not, you know, the type of athlete to just pop off a fast time here and there, right? She remains consistent. You know when she's on the line, she's going to compete, whether she's getting a gold medal, a silver or a bronze, right? So she's just done that for so long. And it's really admirable to think, okay, you can just stay in the game. You can do it the right way. You can work really hard and just have such an amazing and outstanding admirable career by doing that.

So I think that's really, really cool that she's been able to pull that off. And it just, it takes so much of discipline, right, to just not show up somewhere and just like pop off this super fast time and then, you know, lose that focus, right? She's had that focus for so many years and so many competitions, which is just, it's amazing. And, like, you know, you mentioned peaking. And so with track and field, it's just really important that you have the discipline. to run fast when it matters and where it matters. You could do whatever you want, right?

We're all talented. We're all super fast. You could just show up somewhere and run, you know, 218, which is a really, really fast turnaround for women. And then, you know, go bomb the trials, you know, and run like a 23 flat, right? You can do that if you don't have the discipline and focus at training or you're not listening to your coach.

Or you don't feel like training for months at a time really hard. And that's what happens when you don't do that. But you see Allison, who's just so focused. so mature as an athlete. I think it's phenomenal. So that's kind of what I aspire to do. And she also does it across, you know, the one, two, and four, which is even more special. Yeah, you know, it's really cool to have that, to have that range. So she's a phenomenal athlete. You know, they're just Quenara Hayes. Also, she's been around for a while. She, she's such a strong four-meter runner can never count her out when you see her on the line. I just, I love athletes like

that, you know, you can, you see them show up. You don't count them out. You know, they've been putting in the work, whether or not, you know, they're making headlines every, you know, every week. It's like, no, you're a very solid athlete. That's what I really, I really admire that. I love that. So let's transition because we're talking about consistency right now. And one big theme for consistency is obviously sleep. And you've shared, you've shared some of your whoop data with me, so I'm looking at it. And you've got a remarkably high sleep efficiency. So sleep efficiency is obviously for folks listening, it's the amount of time you spend in bed actually sleeping, right? So you're in a restorative period or you're at least getting light sleep,

but you're not awake. You're not having disturbances. We generally say being over 85% is good, although I'm looking at your data, and you've got between 90 and 95% sleep efficiency. Which is pretty damn good, Gabby. So you're a happy sleeper. My Harvard track and field coach, he used to make me right. essays on sleep and the importance of sleep. So what I tell you, it's ingrained in me, like, to the point where if I don't get sick, I'm stressed. Yeah, it's great coaching. I mean, it's a great foundation that I was, you know, that was laid for me just to, you know, transition to pro. But yeah, so I think what's really interesting is I just, I am one of those

athletes where I need sleep. I'm also just a human being, like a person who needs it. It's crazy because I actually, you know, I have this, um, group with a bunch of former Harvard athletes. It's really fun. And I just see how people can get by, you know, like five hours. And it's great. They're great. Like, that's just what they need. They just can't even have anymore else they might even feel jousy. Or it's for me, it's like, no, I need eight hours or it's not going to be, I'm not going to be able to perform. And it's so interesting to see how people are so different that way. Well, I'm very serious about that sleep efficiency. What are some things that you've observe that improve your sleep? Or what is your bedtime routine? Well, the consistency is really

important. I used to feel like it didn't matter when I got my sleep as long as I was getting the hours. And I realized that, no, I needed to be consistent. So typically, like, my, I'll, like, do, this isn't great, but like midnight to nine, right, is kind of like my sleep window. And if I keep it consistent like that, you know, I actually sleep really well through the night. Additionally, you know, I don't have a TV in my room that's very intentional. I don't like to watch TV or be on screens before I go to bed. Yeah, that's pretty, everyone knows that. It's a good one. Yeah, it's not good for you. But to actually stick with it and not have the TV in your room, it's a really good habit to get into. The habit of reading before bed, an actual book, you know, not being on your phone is a really

good habit to get into because it makes a big difference. Like I mentioned before, eating before bed, you want to stay away from that. What else? Also, you know, just how active you are throughout the day. That's also, you know, pretty, that makes sense, right? You know, the more active you are, the better you're probably going to sleep, the more you're going to need it. I find that when I haven't had a very strenuous day, like I didn't, you know, maybe it was a rest day.

It's just harder for me to get to sleep. Yeah. I'm going to sleep through the night. But I think it's just a matter of, you know, being consistent, you know, having this consistent days, having that routine. Have you ever worn blue light blocking glasses? I actually have not. I just ordered a pair.

You know, that's going to take you to another level. They are amazing. I started wearing them two years ago. You look a little ridiculous in them. I mean, they're like these orange tint glasses, but they have dramatically improved the restorative sleep that I get. Really? Yeah.

So I get like three to four hours of REM and slow wave at night. And I'm also often on my phone before bed, because I'm responding to emails and stuff. And, but these glasses, they're like a get out of jail free card. So the fact that you're already, the fact that you're already behaving so well, you know, reading and this and that, I think the glasses are going to be great for you. Well, have you compared it with like the glasses versus no blue light at all? Is it comparable?

Well, it's hard to have no blue light because even just your natural environment is producing blue light. I haven't done a perfect A-B test on myself, which would be no blue, like blackened glasses versus no screen usage. Yeah. But I put these glasses on and they already start to make me sleepy. It's amazing. So I'm going to send you a pair of the ones I've got to. I've got to try that.

Yeah, I think you're going to like them. Now, what about muscle recovery? So, you know, do you do anything with Norma Tech boots or? hyper ice? Do you like cold baths? Do you do a little bit? A little bit. I don't do a lot of that. Another thing that I picked up from Harvard track and field. I don't do a lot of that stuff when I'm in training. I like to teach my body to kind of figure it out on its own. And then when it comes to championship season when I'm at trials or Olympics, I'll do an ice bath or an Epson salt bath. But I

pretty much steer clear from that when I'm in the bulk of my training. Well, it's an interesting philosophy. So you're almost suggesting that doing these things is teaching your body not to do it on its own. Yeah. Now, is that your own opinion or did you talk? I don't have any research to back it up. I'd be interested to know if my coach who put me onto this philosophy has done the research, which I wouldn't be surprised if he did. He researches everything. He doesn't just tell me to do things. But I'm sure there's research that supports it. I'm also sure there's research that is against it. but I'm a strong believer in it. I mean, I will do massage therapy.

I'll use a hyper-rise, but no. It's not a big thing. Yeah, no, not really. Yeah, I like to take care of myself, right? I maintain myself, so I'm not going to put repeated stress in my body and not get any type of therapy. But yeah, ice fast and Epson salt bass. I just assume that it will make my body a little more dependent on it than I would like to be.

If not physically, I know mentally. So just save those for the major competitions. Over the course of a day, what are you eating? I am pretty consistent in season. I wake up, have like oatmeal. I normally just put some oats, some oats and oat milk and some fruit in a bowl and eat it for breakfast. We train kind of early afternoon.

So I normally don't get a chance to have lunch. And I come back, I might like have some chicken usually and some type of vegetable, sometimes salmon, switch it up and just kind of. kind of have like a big lunch dinner type thing and then maybe a snack later but it's very boring and very consistent so nothing maybe Chipotle every now and then but this is like in season when I'm when I'm off season it's I eat whatever I want is your weight something that you pay a lot of attention to like and how do you think about that is it better to almost be getting a little lighter leading up to the race or is you know maybe you're trying to put on muscle so you want

to actually get a little bit heavier like talk about that This is a new thing that I've been focusing on this year. I never worried about it until fall 2020. I mean, you want to have some weight on you in the off season so that you have like something to burn off when you're, all you're doing is my life. We're running so much volume. But then, yeah, leaning up to the actual competition.

And when you're peaking, you just want to be like lean, lean muscle. It's kind of like just imagine, you know, running and putting on a weight vest. Just anything extra that you have is just inevitably going to slow you down. And like I said, every step matters. If you're being slowed down, you know, even one hundredths of a second and one step, that's going to add up. So I like to, I really do try to be as light as possible while maintaining muscle. So we're in the weight room.

We're in the weight room like twice a week, put, throw in weight, right? Yeah, positivity and have that muscle, have that strength. But at the same time, you, you really want to keep it as minimal as possible while, while still being healthy. My rule of thumb is kind of just whatever you're putting into your body, it has to make sense. Right. It has to fuel you and be and have nutritional value. Obviously, you can cheat sometimes. That's on you. You know, that you're going to see that those results. But, you know, you know what you're putting into your body. If it's going to help you, then do it. If not, then it's not conducive to training. So we go so far as to say, okay, I know I should be this weight on this day. And you kind of are working towards that as you go. I think that's an unhealthy way to look at it. But yeah, I do. I do that. I kind of know where I want to be. I think, you know, what I. I I know when, what weight I am, when I'm peeking, how far I am from that. So, yeah, I do think about that pretty frequently.

I try not to think about it that way, but I know. I have an idea. Also, you know, doing scan, seeing how much of your body, you know, your body composition breakdown. It's also that can be really important. Now, you've overcome some adversity this year, which I feel like has been underreported in your amazing story. You had a bit of a health scare with a benign.

tumor and then you also about with COVID like talk about overcoming this well the COVID was in July 2020 so that was kind of you know in the middle of COVID we didn't really have a season so many COVID cases in Austin going on so that I mean that was it was unfortunate I had a mild case thankfully and then I continued to train honestly through it and after it and then went on to like kind of finish my season so that was okay not a big deal it was okay it was no big deal right mild case of COVID, just, you know, quarantined. The tumor scare was really, it was really terrifying and mostly because of the timing of it, too. I mean, I was about to go to little trials.

So I had this like hamstring injury for like a month, hardly an injury. It was just kind of like a, something, a pain that I was feeling. I was still running through it. And then they recommended that I get an MRI scan on my back just to see, you know, what was going on. it might be connected. And then they found, you know, a mass, you know, in my liver. And I had to get extra imaging just to see what it was about. And at first, you know, I'm thinking just for my experience, you know, studying health, I just, I know that a lot of times when you do scans, you find these extra things, right? And they normally don't mean anything. A lot of us have

abnormalities in our body that you would just never know because you're not a pro athlete getting scanned like once a year, right? It happens. So at first, I, I was so unconcerned, and I didn't even want to go get the extra imaging. I'm like, it's not worth my time. I'm competing. But the doctors kept telling me that it looked so unusual and that I needed to go get it checked out. And then that's when I started to panic. You know, when your doctor's saying, oh, no, this doesn't look right.

You have to go get it checked out. I was starting to freak out. And it was frustrating how long the entire process was taking, start to finish. Olympic trials were coming up in a couple of weeks. And I got to a point where I was like, I don't even want to, I don't know if I want to know if this is cancer or not before I go compete. for my spot on the Olympic team. Ultimately, I decided I had to know because not knowing what's getting to me. And then, gosh, it had to be like two weeks before I left for Eugene where I found out that it was

benign and it was such a relief because I just remember thinking like I was just thinking if I'm healthy, like I'm just going to do whatever it takes to make the team. And I think it did make a difference on, you know, when I went there. I went in like just so, so grateful and ready and just feeling so healthy and like alive, knowing that I actually did not have cancer went for how to be three weeks. I thought I had cancer. And it just fueled me so much more. It probably was part of why I ran so fast.

Yeah, that was, it was terrifying. And it just was frustrating dealing with the health care system during that time. But yeah, we're grateful to be healthy. Well, you strike me as someone who's in general, a grateful person. Is that the thing you consciously think about? Yeah, it is. It was crazy because I actually had a friend visit me in Austin right before I got that imaging and we were having this deep conversation in Zilker. And we were talking about what are you

most grateful for? And my answer was literally my health. I'm so grateful to be young and healthy and not have any of these. We're just so grateful. I'm mobile. I'm able to do anything that I want to do. It's something that we take for granted when you're young and healthy. And it had to be like three days later when I got the scan. And I was like, you've got to be kidding me. But yeah, I'm very, very grateful for that. And then of course, her answer was, you know, about the people and friends and family and, you know, it's going to often takes for granted the people that we have around us. But yeah, I mean, that's another thing that I'm grateful for too, the environment that I'm in that allowed me to become an Olympian. So I understand your mom's a college professor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, in the department of education. That does help explain, you know, your academic interest because you're also right now working on epidemiology, correct? I am. Yes, yes. That was one of my mom's demands that I move somewhere in a city that has a graduate school that I could attend while I trained for the Olympics. And UT was a great option. Now, has she always been tough on you with your academics? Like, hey, you know, you might be running fast, but you got to get good grades. Yeah. I don't know if tough is the word to use for her. She's always been passionate about it. She's never been a stickler for grades. She's always wanted me to just do what I wanted to do. and just do it well.

She just always believed that education is the most important thing and access to education. And that's what she's super passionate about in her line of work. So yes, it was ingrained in me, you know, like all these other things, ingrained in me at a young age, at a formative age. And it kind of just stuck with me even through now. With your epidemiology background, what are your takes on COVID-19? Where's this all headed?

Oh, God. Oh, God. you know, it's not looking great right now. I just think everyone, it has to be kind of a cohesive, cohesive unified front if we want to get out of this thing in the foreseeable future. If not, we're just going to keep doing the same thing that we're doing now. And that's just the issue with public health. It's just making sure that everyone's kind of on the same page in doing things to help one another, which is just not what we're doing. It's kind of the opposite of, you know, the American way. right. So we're just going to have to ride this one out. Now, do you think, do you think that this is going to be ongoing for years and years to come? Like some folks are saying, you know, every year you're going to get, you're going to get a COVID shot. You're going to get a flu shot. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's just what we're going to have to accept.

Absolutely. And is COVID in part what inspired you to go down this study path? Weirdly, no. Weirdly, no. It was just a weird timing coincidence. I had applied for grad school fall of 2019. Oh, funny. Yeah, the COVID outbreak happened. I remember I was working in a clinic, and we were getting so many weird cases of the flu. It was crazy.

I think it was like November, December, 2019. We were like, geez, the flu is nasty this year. And then, of course, in January 2020, it was like, oh, COVID outbreak. And they were like, oh, God. It was just a weird coincidence. It was, I mean, it's always going to be relevant, right? Right now, COVID. it's just, you know, the hugest thing in the news, but it's always something that's going to be

important. And you study global health extensively, obviously, with your work at Harvard. What's inspired you about that path, global health? And what do you hope in to change? What inspired me about that was just the public health aspect of it and the health disparities. It was everything that, you know, we're kind of overlooking as a society that leads to poor health. So the social determinants of health, right, like your income, your environment, and just all of those things that, you know, we just overlook. And I wanted to do something about that. So it's not even just, you know, how often you can get into a doctor's office. And if your doctor's helping you, it's like, you know, can you get to your doctor's office? What happens after you leave the doctor's

office? Are you able to maintain whatever recommendations they gave to you? And those are the kind of things that I kind of want to do something about. And I want to be in the field of research as an epidemiologist with that outlook. Because it's really important that public health has, you know, diversity, racially, culturally, and that people like me are in that field. And being at the forefront and making these recommendations and being a part of the research and being in the field. So that's what I was really passionate about. It's to see these kind of things firsthand, to see it with my family. A lot of my family, you know, they grew up in Mobile, Alabama. That's where my mom grew up in, you know, some severe poverty type situations. And just knowing that nothing

is being done to really help them. They're just kind of overlooked and underserved, underresourced. And so much of that is just public health. It's not, you know, going to the doctor's office and just getting, getting this medication. It's also research into, you know, those medications, right? It's like, how does this medication affect white people versus affecting, you know, brown people or black people? That research isn't being done. You know, it's not done. You know, the standard is just like a specific looking person or a specific type of person. All of that made me just think I need to get it and do something about it.

And I would like to do that with the mastery of it, which is why I wanted to go to graduate school and study epidemiology and health care administration. But I also want to look at, you know, how it's being administered in the economics of health and in actually, being realistic about how I can make that change in communities. So having that balance. Yeah. No, it's such an important point you made. And I guess the whoop lens on it is as much from an education standpoint, which is to say that if you can help people understand important physiological metrics and give them ways to have an alerting system, you know, you can put more power in the hands of individuals. And that's obviously one piece of the system and one piece of the puzzle and you can't cut doctors out of it.

Yeah. I mean, that's what I always think, yeah. It's like that education piece, right? It empowers you and it engages you. So when you just have that, even in itself, it makes a big difference. I mean, so much of it is just the education piece from my experience and, you know, talking to my family and friends that I know who aren't getting what they need and taking care of themselves. It's an education piece. It seems so simple because it's something that I've always been exposed to, but it's not.

Well, Gabby, this has been a real pleasure, and I'm thrilled you're on Woop and have been so for a long time now. Yeah. It's a part of me. I look forward to meeting you in person next time you in Boston and wishing you the best of luck. Thanks, Will. This was awesome.

Thank you so much. Thank you to Gabby for coming on the Woop Podcast. reminder, you can use the code Will W-I-L to get 15% off a W-W-W-Mership. Check us out on social at W-W-P at Will Ahmed. Please give us a review or a comment. Make sure to subscribe that helps more people find the WOOP podcast. And stay healthy, folks. Stay in the green. Thank you.