WHOOP Podcast - PGA Champion Justin Thomas on using disappointment to fuel success and how WHOOP helps him perform

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

World No. 4 golfer Justin Thomas joins the WHOOP Podcast to talk about the highs and lows of his career, and how WHOOP helps him train, sleep and perform better. Justin discusses his upbringing and how his dad and grandfather inspired him to be a golfer (3:09), his friendly rivalry with Jordan Spieth and battling it out for the 2012 NCAA National Championship (10:50), seeking advice from Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus and Tom Brady (14:42), taking lessons from disappointment (18:15), his friendship with Tiger and teaming up with him at the Presidents Cup (20:42), what qualifying for the PGA Tour was like (27:22), his disappointing finish at the 2017 U.S. Open and how that helped him win his first major two months later (31:47), discovering WHOOP through Rory McIlroy (37:48), what he's learned from WHOOP (40:22), his "world-class" sleep data (42:14), how he analyzes sleep and recovery (50:13), measuring WHOOP data on the course (58:47), dealing with nerves in big moments (1:00:54), what he thinks is good for golf and bad for golf (1:04:18), plus which big-name golfers he's on a WHOOP team with (1:14:15).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

Hello, folks, welcome to the WOOP podcast. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, the founder and CEO of WOOP, where we are on a mission to unlock human performance. We build wearable technology across hardware and software and analytics that's designed to help you better understand your body. So we measure things like sleep and recovery and stress, and we use this podcast as an opportunity to talk to high-performing individuals about all the things that they do to improve their performance. We certainly have a high-performing guest this week, Justin Thomas, the number four golfer in the

world, and we're going to get to him in just a second. I want to talk briefly about the events going on in the United States and just let our listeners and our members know that we at Woop condemn racism. We stand with the Black Lives Matter movement. We've donated to the Equal Justice Initiative, which is working to provide ongoing financial support to organizations that support racial equality and social justice. We've done a number of things internally, including unconscious bias training, including promotions of whoop jobs on more diverse platforms so that we continue to try to get the most diverse applicant pool into our organization. And look, there's many more things to do. I think all leaders right now should be

trying to do everything they can. We should be listening and we should be evolving to support the Black Lives Matter movement. And to our guest, Justin Thomas, world class golfer, long time whoop member, been using the product for a long time. And we go deep on how he got into golf, his upbringing. It turns out both his dad and grandfather were professional golfers. His relationship with Tiger Woods, why he leans on people like Tiger, Jack, Nicholas, even Tom Brady for advice, how he's learned from disappointment in his career and how that's fueled him for success. And how he discovered Whoop through his buddy, Rory McElroy, also a Whoop podcast guest, and how it helps him optimize his performance. Justin, along with being a world-class golfer, I will tell you, is a world-class sleeper. We talk about his data with some of the things he does to improve his sleep.

And overall, I think this is a fascinating guest. And we are thrilled to have Justin on Woop. And a reminder, you can use the code Will Ahmed, that's WI-L-L-A-H-M-E-D, to get 15% off your WOOP membership, which includes the Woop Strap 3.0 for free as part of your membership. Without further ado, here's Justin. Justin, welcome to the WOOP podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. You know, it's been so cool having you on WOOP for these past couple years and getting to watch.

Really, the success that you've had in your career at a very young age, you know, for you growing up, was it always obvious you're going to be a professional golfer? For sure, my, actually going back to my grandpa, he played on tour. I don't know the exact amount of years. I know he played PGA Tour and senior PGA Tour, and then my dad's been a, golf pro for 30-ish years. So I think like any little boy, he wants to grow up to be like his dad, you know, when I'm going through those young stages. And being an only child, you know, my mom would be doing her thing. So once I got to the point where I was at school, after school,

dropped me off at the club and I would just hang out there until my dad was done working. And in the fall, it would be, you know, four or five o'clock. And the summer, it would be, you know, nine, ten o'clock. So I would spend a lot of hours at the pro shop hanging around my dad and just hitting balls, hitting putts, whatever it was. So, yeah, I guess you could say that it was never pushed on me, but just kind of destined to be. And at what point was it obvious that you were good at golf? Like, you know, because a lot of people want to be a professional golfer or want to be a professional athlete. For me, the biggest, I played in tournaments around the area.

Growing up in Louisville, Kentucky, it wasn't, you know, we didn't have a big national presence. You know, there was some competitiveness in my age group, but I, I, I, I often played up because it sounds arrogant as I'm thinking about it before I'm going to say it, but I just wanted a little bit more competition. I felt like if I played my age group, I was going to win a lot of tournaments. Because, you know, in an eight-year-old, or if I'm playing seven-and-eight-year-olds in Louisville, I could be playing against two, three, four kids, you know? So I want to play in the 10.

Because there weren't enough people. Exactly. So I want to play in the 10-11 or the 12-13, whatever it was. So I would play up and I would win, you know, I'd win a fair amount of those tournaments. And I played my first international event, the U.S. kids, it's called. And it was in Jekyll Island, Georgia. I was eight years old. So it's the boys eight.

And I mean, there's kids from all across the world. I mean, different states, countries. And I lost in a playoff. I'm still mad about it. That's not. But I lost in a playoff to a kid that was, you know, three times my size. Maybe it wasn't even eight years old. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. It's like what the bench warmers were in the kids. I'm 12 signed. But, and that for me was, I was the first time I played against kids that weren't from, you know, Kentucky or Indiana, Ohio, that little area. I was playing against kids. I forget where Kevin was from. He was not, he, I think he was represented from California because he represented state or country, but I don't think he was, he wasn't from there, born there. And he was a lot bigger boy than I was.

So that was kind of my first time where I'm like, okay, you know, I'm not just good enough to compete and beat kids. in Kentucky, I can, you know, beat, I guess, people from all around. And how good are you at age eight? Like, are you shooting around par or a little over? Yeah, it's all relative, because it's golf, which is so great about golf is that there's teas based on that. So, you know, we're playing teas that are appropriate for an eight-year-old. You know, we're breaking par because we might be teeing off at the start of the fairway or this hole might be here, but no, it was all relative, like I said. It's because where we played from, I was breaking par, but obviously if I'm playing, especially when I was eight years old.

I mean, I had to weigh 40 pounds. I was so tiny. So I didn't hit it far enough to play any farther back, but I made up for it and other assets. And what do you think prevented you from burning out? You know, you hear about a lot of people who age eight are the best at their thing. And then by age 14, they're not even playing their sport anymore. honestly and I really do think first off I witnessed it firsthand is not just as an eight-year-old but literally all through college golf is parenting and I'm very very very lucky to have amazing parents and it's huge it is and I watched kids that were so good that their parents would push them so hard and make them practice and make them go out and hit balls and force them to play in this when you're nine years old you don't want to be told to go you know what I'm Like, it's one thing, if you're told to go do a chore, you need to do that.

But, hey, go play in this golf tournament where I'm driving you here. And, you know, they want what's best for their kid. But that young, it's just, that's the quickest way to get disinterested in whatever, not just a sport, but anything. And I was very lucky. And my dad, I think, knew that I was, you know, somewhat talented. And my mom took me to all my tournaments because my dad was busy at the shop. So they love me the same whether I shot, you know, 65 or 85.

Yeah. Fortunately for me, I just shot more 65s. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made a career out of it, but, or am making. But they just, they always treated me the same and they, you know, they always love me the same. They always acted the same. And obviously it's, it's different when you play well versus poorly in terms of if you won or if you didn't or how I'm going to act. But it's, I think a lot of it has. to do with them because my dad understood that he couldn't push me. He was going to help me whenever I wanted, but he was never going to voluntarily step in and force anything on me because he knew that that would probably lead to me not wanting to play the game anymore.

So it largely came from within. You know, you looked up to your father or your grandfather. For sure. And you wanted to be as good as you could. Exactly. And I love it. I absolutely love golf. I've changed a lot and being able to take time off. I used to be terrible at just stepping away from the game for two, three days. Whereas now, now, especially during all this, like I had no problem not touching a club for three or four weeks. Which is probably really unusual for you. It is.

Oh, it's unheard of. I would say unheard of, but it literally is unheard of. I'm not able to do it just because of our schedule is January to December. Not consistently, but events thrown in here and there to where if I want to have a chance to compete, I have to play golf, you know, every so often. So, yeah, it's just, it is very different, and it was tough as I grew older understanding what I needed to do for not only my golf game, but my body, but just learning when to take time off and when not to, but that's, you know, like I said, about my dad, that's what he was great at and helping.

And in high school, how soon did you know you were going to Alabama? I committed to Alabama my, I think my junior, It was in January, January of my junior year. Okay, so it's a typical recruiting process. Yeah, yeah, I took a lot of visits. It was no offense to the state of Kentucky, but I wanted to get away from there because it's just too cold. I can't play year-round. I was sick of going to tournaments in January and February and not hitting a club off of grass for three months kind of thing.

So I wanted to go to a place where I felt I could play year-round if I wanted to, you know, maybe have some cold months, Alabama does. And I wanted to win national championships. I want to have compete. And basically, I wanted to go where was going to get me ready for the next step of my life, which is going to be professional golf. And Alabama checked every box by a million. So it was a no-brainer for me. And now you show up a freshman year. You guys have a great year. And this is 2012, right? Yes. And you guys lose in the final. finals of the national championship to Texas, which was Jordan Spieth and Dylan Fratelli's team. What was that like for you?

Awful. It sucked. There's no way to sugarcoat it. I mean, I still am mad at myself because I know if I would have won my match, then we would have won. But it's easy to go back and look at things. But it's just, I just remember putting so much pressure on myself because, you know, Jordan was Jordan. And we both had unbelievable years. We were battling out for player of the year, fresh both player and freshman of the year because you were both freshmen too we were yeah we were and um we had a little rivalry i mean we were very very close friends and and got along great but we both hated to lose to anybody let alone each other so it just i mean i remember i i don't know why i remember this but i just coming home that night before the finals and coach scott

limball was our assistant of the time and he just kind of sat down like this he's like you want him And I was like, yeah, I want them. You know, they had the ability to kind of pair who you wanted. Yeah. And we both wanted each other. The world probably wanted, the golfing world, wanted us to play each other. And I just, I didn't handle the situation very well. And I got a little too amped up and to probably put too much pressure on myself.

And I had a chance on the back nine, but I just didn't, didn't perform well enough. And we lost, so it was a bummer. And a match like that, I mean, this is almost eight, ten, yeah, eight years ago, do you still remember a lot of the shots? Like, how vivid is your golf memory? It's great. I remember I made a bad bogey on 10. I think I was one down going into nine,

and he hit it in a bunker on nine that you can't hit it in, then he left that short, and I think I was on the green. So I'm just like, I just got to make paro win this hole. I might have been two down. I was one or two down. and then he hits that short of green. It's a terrible chip. Like, not even on the green, just short,

probably 30 feet for par. He makes that for par. I miss, so we tie the hole, which looks like I was going to win the whole way. The next hole I have a wedge in my hand, leave it in the bunker. He hits in the bunker. I hit it on.

I miss about a five-footer. He makes par. So he wins that hole. So it looks like I'm going to probably win two holes in a row and I win and I lose one. Yeah. I eagle to 11 to get back to one or two down. That's where I kind of forget.

And then I remember I made a bad bogey on 14 par three, which was just a terrible time in the match to make a bogey. And then he had the most BS bogus hole out of all time on 15. He hit it way right. And it caught this big slope and came down. And he made it with a four or five iron from the fairway. And I mean, I can picture it now, staying in this bunker, I can picture his mom behind the green jumping up with their hands when it went in.

So after that, I was three down. three to go and the match was pretty much over by then. Well, for people listening to this, I just completely put you on the spot and you recited it perfectly. So that's a sign that you've got a real golf memory. Yeah. So you remember that almost better than some of your wins? Sometimes. Obviously that was, what, eight years ago now? So some stuff around then. I probably do remember that better than some of my wins, but that was also such a big stage and the biggest stage I'd probably play it in at that point. So that might be the case, but I'm not sure. I mean, I know you've spent a lot of time around high-profile professional athletes.

Like, who are people you've picked their brain about competition or mindset? A lot. I pick a lot of guys' brains. I just am one that I feel like if I, first off, if I never hear the information, then I obviously can't learn it or digest it. So to me, I feel like I'm going to ask as many people as I can. You know, people that have been there, or not, no offense to people that haven't,

but it's like there's a reason why they are where they are and we are or whoever is where they are. So, I mean, I've asked Tiger so many questions. And depending on where he is and his playing, pretty much determines how much he's going to give me back. So right now, Tiger's obviously on a great comeback in his career. Maybe he's less forthcoming about certain things because he knows he actually has to beat you.

Slightly. Definitely less than when he was injured a couple years ago. and we kind of first started becoming pretty close. He was telling me about anything and everything then, which was fun. And then I just remember that next year, because that was before I was getting ready for Augusta, and I think 17 it was, 17 or 18, and he wasn't playing. So, you know, he's helping me. We're just, I was over at his house practicing a bunch, and we were just were talking either through shots or different chips or just thought on the course.

And then that next year, I'm like, hey, you know, you want to practice. a little bit this week and he's just like no like what you're talking about he's like I'm I'm playing this year like you I'll see you next week it's like okay so but that's that's why he is who he is and I've picked his brain a lot I've I've picked Tom Brady's brain a lot I just like I said to me if I never ask then I'll never learn and I can always pick and take what I like or what I feel like will help me. I feel like Jack Nicholas at my first couple years, I really, I tried to get together with him twice a year. That's great. Before the Masters, I always did. And then whenever it felt right, either in the middle of summer toward the end of the year. And he was someone where you really had to

pay attention, or I had to really pay attention and pick out certain things. Because, I mean, the first time I went and talked to him, I was there for three hours, three and a half hours. And I, and I went over there with just, I didn't even have like a question type thing. It was just, like hey can I just sit and talk to you and he's like well what's on your mind and you know I'd say something like I you know I just want to get a little more comfortable or you know I'm struggling maybe when I get in contention and then bang next thing you know it's three hours later and I'm like what did I you know what I mean is how do you take it all in so it's just listening to those things and things like oh okay that makes sense I I don't do that or yeah he said that he

thinks that way and I think the opposite way so to me it's just just it's all mentality stuff and that's what the greatest players and are just not necessarily athletes but just the greatest in their profession do is just they obviously they're gifted in what they're doing but they have a better mindset and they go about that mindset better than everybody else yeah you try to be a sponge right for all the information you can absorb from other people who have done it better than you for sure or have done it before you right exactly and take as many different sources of information as you can if you think about let's take Tiger, for example, what's like one thing that he told you that helped your mindset or helped

your game? I can think of a couple things, but I honestly don't want to share him. It's just like he said, but it really is just a lot of just being comfortable. It's hard to, you know, I can't tell you to just, hey, you know, when you're coming down those last couple holes and you have a one-shot lead with three to go, just be calm. You know what I mean? Like, I can't just tell you that and then I throw you in the ring and you are, it really is, and this is something that you, like I said, you just can't flip a switch, but you just got to put yourself there. You have to put yourself in contention, you have to go through it. And I'm sure, as you know, with businesses, you have to fail. Totally, yeah. It's not fun to. And unfortunately, in golf, you fail more than maybe anything,

especially in a sport. Yeah. Your winning percentage is very, very low, and you can still be a Hall of Fame golfer. So that part's tough, but for me, you learn a lot more from those losses or from things like, man, like I did that. Like I wish, I should have done that differently. And I think that's the biggest thing that just being around him is just he's been there so many times that he's, and he's won so many times. But he's also, I'm sure, I could ask him, you know, what's one shot you wish you had back

or what's a tournament you lost that? And he just like that. you know like i just got the same golf memory exactly it seems like most of you guys do yeah it's it's kind of comes with the territory of being my my girlfriend gives me grief all the time that i can remember you know how far i had from in 2015 at my rookie year on the 17 but the grocery list not so much but it's like you i can't and then i can't say well yeah i actually cared about that but it's it's yeah we're so focused out there and it is our job and it's it's it's hard to put into terms just what we're thinking but yeah it is has it been surreal for you at all getting to know tiger

woods that well i mean we're a fairly similar age for him for me even just growing up watching him play golf and i didn't want to be a professional golfer but like it was so inspiring just how good he was and how he dominated the game and the vibe that he had i imagine it inspired you as well to be a pro golfer yeah it did it just it's i that's the person you know when if you're a basketball player if you were, you know, if you were our age, you'd probably be going out, like, shooting hoops. Like, you know, I'm making the shot to beat Kobe Bryant in the finals or whatever it is. So it's like, I would go hit those puts. Like, you know, there's to beat Tiger Woods and the Masters when I'm 7, 8, 9, 10 years old.

And it is. It's, it's, there's times here and there to where I just, it does feel surreal. And I'm so, so fortunate and lucky that he, I don't want to say has taken me in, but that he is willing to share. But also, it is a friendship, you know. It's just like us being friends or me being friends with Jordan or Rory or Ricky, whatever it is. It's like we're friends and we don't look at it as like, you know, we're here to help each other. Yeah, we can if the other one wants help. But at the end of the day, we're just two guys that both love golf and love to win.

And we just want to go out and BS and have fun. It was pretty cool seeing what you guys did together at the President's Cup. Was that an awesome experience for you? It was, yeah. It just was, that was surreal. it was, like, I never would have thought that that would have happened. You know what I mean? That's what I mean. I mean, if you go back, you probably don't even fully appreciate how amazing it is that,

like, at age 10, you were admiring this guy. For sure. And now you're making putts with him on the 18th hole to win a tournament, or excuse me, win a match. Yeah, I couldn't, like I said, I never, ever would have thought it. It's one of those things I could say, you know, yeah, I never would think that me and my parents would be having dinner with him at his house one day. But, you know, that's something that's like, okay, it could happen just coincidentally. But it's like, I'm partners with the dude that, I mean, I'm getting goosebumps saying that's like that I've looked up to.

And probably the reason that I'm playing golf and want to win so bad is because of watching him. So, yeah, it's when he came to me and he's like, you know, this is months before, even before the Ryder Cup a couple years ago, when we were talking about different pairings, he's like, what do you want to play? I'm like, for sure. You know, it's all, I'm always here for that. And he's a tough person to pair with because of not only his golf ball, but he's one of the best in the world and being himself. So sometimes I think when guys play with them, especially if they haven't enough, you know, like I was nervous.

It's like I shouldn't be nervous. To be his partner. Exactly. I should be nervous because I'm playing in the presence cup, not because Tiger Woods is my partner. Yeah. And that's, I talked to Steve Stricker, who actually my caddy, Jimmy used to caddy for.

yeah who was our um you know he was a captain and i just i asked him because he was partners with him in the past you know what's it like you just don't you need to be comfortable don't you know try to impress them don't try to do this like you're just be yourself exactly like you're really really good too don't forget that and there's a reason you guys are on this team together because you guys are two of the best players in the world and you guys just need to go out and get a point that's the only thing that you're there for and i think that kind of help a lot of words that strict said. But yeah, that moment on 18 was definitely one I'll always remember. It was such a great pot. It's such a great moment. Let's go back for a second. So you go back

2013. You guys then win the national championship. Did you know in that moment you were immediately going to go pro or was it still like a sort of an unsure decision? I actually knew which makes it even more special and cool about that is I probably knew five. I did know like five months before that. So you were committed in your mind. That helps. I did. And And I had the opportunity to go after my freshman year if I wanted, but it was like, look, I came here to win a national championship. I came to get ready for pro golf, and I did a lot of things, but I hadn't played it in enough pro events. I wanted to play in more tour events as an amateur to where I felt more comfortable. I wanted to win a national championship.

That was huge to me. Because I know once I'm out, I'm out. You're out. Exactly. I don't. Although I have the eligibility left, I'm probably not going to go back and do that. So that was important to me, but that fall semester, my sophomore year in 12, it just, it was weird. I couldn't get motivated to go to tournaments.

I was struggling. I just was irritable. I was everything. This is your freshman year. This is my sophomore year. 11, 12 was my freshman year and then 12, 13 sophomore. So we had fall, we'd play four or five minutes in the fall and then five, six, or seven or whatever it was in the spring. in the fall of my sophomore year

was when I felt like that. And I just, I struggled. I think I won one tournament maybe, but it just, I, I don't know, my bad was bad. Like, my freshman year, my bad was a lot better. I was more consistent. And I just remember going home from some tournament. I forget what tournament it was,

but I'm like, you know, I'm wanting to play professional golf and no offense to whoever I was playing against, but I just finished 40th in a college event. Like I can't even be, these college kids and I want to go play pro like I was in a dark bad place and I had no reason to be it just was I felt like I wasn't ready for the step and then I remember I played the world am I played well there and then our last event of the fall was that following week and I remember I

didn't want to play because I was so behind in schoolwork and and I just I was tired I mean I spent a week in Turkey so the time change was I was jet lagged I had a week of eating food that I didn't still don't even know what I was eating and it wasn't good and it was like I just I will if I never would have thought of that in the spring in a big tournament not that it wasn't a big tournament but I just was like I don't want to play like I just I need to get my feet back under me and I'm ever talking to my mom and she's like you know this is what you want to do for your living and what it was the first time she's ever was like stern with me which about playing in something you know it was always kind of whatever but she's like you know you say you want to play professional golf and and play all the

time and like how can you not do this and i don't know just a couple of days and i was like all right i'm i'm ready to go play or i'm going to go try and play and i end up winning so that's awesome it just was i think after that i was like if i'm able to overcome this and and i got myself motivated for that event and I remember just thinking of myself like maybe because I am in this frame of mind it's because I am ready for the next step you know like I hate to use the term I was bored but I think I was getting bored with college golf because there was no postseason right you hate to say the fall isn't important but it's not important it's in college golf you know you want to win those tournaments but it all matters is the spring you know it's just like the majors we we got to play

well at the end of the spring and postseason and that's what we're trying to do so I kind of made the decision over Christmas break that I was most likely going to leave and as I played more and more and was getting better and it was like I was getting more and more motivated as we got closer to postseason and I was like yeah this is time I bet actually committing to going pro earlier in the season you know it gave it that sort of last dance attitude right like this is the last go I've got at college golf I got to focus exactly and everything was coming together nicely in terms of getting spots into professional events and, you know, talking to different agencies and just in that.

But at the end of the day, the most important thing is about finishing Alabama's college, my college career at Alabama, and us winning a national championship and sweeping the postseason. And, yeah, we did, so it was fun. Now, the transition to getting onto the PGA tour, that was, what, about a year and a half? You're getting your tour card? Yeah, so I turned pro. I played the Walker Cup was my last event as an amateur in September of 13.

I turned pro the next day and then I went to Q school that fall and winter so I played And that's a grind, isn't it? Oh yeah, I had to go through all three stages So first stage, second stage and final stage I've talked to pro golfers who say that's some of the hardest

thing like one of the hardest things they've done in their career Because it's if you don't get through You literally have nothing You have nothing to play on for a whole year Which means that everything that you prepared for for that stage whenever you are in the process, if it doesn't go well, you're done. So you're just, you're waiting an entire calendar year before you. And did you get through fairly easily or it was a little close?

The last stage was very stressful. The first two stages I played well and breezed through, but the final stage at that time was six rounds. And it took 45 in ties. So I remember this. I shot 67 the first round and I remember I was in fifth and I got to. done and I was like I have a full another tournament and a round still to play and I just I couldn't wrap my mind around it I just I didn't know how to think because usually you know you should

play while the first round and then it's like okay let me get myself in position going into the weekend you've got a like you've got a formula in your mind just it might not even be a formula it's just what you're accustomed to it's how you've always gone about it you know if you if you get off to a great start then you just you're kind of hanging around that spot whereas if you're behind. Then you have to start chasing, but like five more rounds, I don't even know how to think about it. And I played, didn't play well this next day. Then I shot 78 the third round and I was in like 140th. Oh, wow. And they take the top 45. 45 and ties. So luckily if you make it to final stage, you get some kind of status. So I would have had like temporary or, um, not temporary status,

but just conditional status. Okay. So, which is not good. You don't get to play in very much. But So I shot 69 the fourth round to probably get me to around 120th or 110th prior. Yeah, it was way back. So at this point, I'm looking, I got two rounds left to get through, hopefully get to the web.com at the time, now the Corn Ferry, and then see what we can do. And I shot 66, 65 the last two days to make it by one. Oh, wow. It was just, it was so. weird because you never get so excited to finish 40th. You know what I mean? It's like I'm

so excited and like I feel like I'm trying to win a golf tournament. You know, I have that adrenaline and those nerves. Like I had this put on, I have to get up and down on 16 for birdie and then like I had this shot on 17 like, I got to make, got to get, it's an island green. I got to get it on land here like it's to win a tournament and I'm in like 37th. Yeah, I'm getting anxious. Let's see it. It's weird. So it was something totally new, but it was a huge accomplishment and then set me up to play the web that year and get my tour card. And what's your first vivid memory of being, like, in a PGA tour event? 16 years old. I won a junior event in Greensboro, North Carolina when I was 16.

And you were, I think, one of the youngest people to ever play in a PGA tour event. Yeah, I was, at the time, I think, third youngest to make a cut. It's pretty cool. Yeah, it was, I mean, if you've seen pictures or anything to me when I was a kid, like I, I looked even younger than I was. I was 133 pounds in my freshman year at Alabama when I got there. So you can only imagine when I was when I was 16. So I'm playing in this tournament.

I remember Sergio was there. Davis Love was there. There's a lot of big names there that I had watched on TV but never been around and sitting in a locker room with. And, you know, guys are, I'm eating at the same place. So it just was, that was an unbelievable experience. And to make the cup was beyond. a bonus. It's so cool. Now, 2017, your player of the year, right? So you've only been on tour for two years. I mean, that's pretty amazing in your player of the year. And you talked earlier

about this sort of this concept of having to feel like you're in contention and knowing what that's like as a mechanism for overcoming it. 2017 U.S. Open, you shoot a 63 on Saturday, right? And so you're in the final group. What was it like being in the final group for the first time in a major. It was stressful and nerve-wracking, I don't think does it justice. And the hardest part when you have those feelings, guys that have been there, I'll tell you, is just the, you know, it's like Christmas morning, you don't, you never sleep till 10. You know, you always wake up at 7 or 6 or whatever it is. And when you're in the last group of a major, you're not teeing off till 2 o'clock plus. So I'm, I'm not teeing off till later. I mean,

I'm in the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin, so it's not like I can do anything but hang at my house anyway. So I just, I want to go. I want to get out there. I want to warm up. I just want to go play. But I have to sit around, I mean, for probably four hours at the house in the morning. And when you're just sitting there, it's easy to think about stuff. And I mean, to be honest, I just didn't play well. I was very nervous. It was windy, which didn't help, it made it even more difficult. But I felt like I made a bad bogey on two, and I got a pretty bad break. I felt like on I had chipped it up there about like this and the wind gusted as the ball had already stopped and blew it back about six feet seven feet and then I missed that and it was like when that

happened I'm like oh my God like this is it's not meant to be kind of thing and and then Brooks and other guys were playing well where I went I think I was I don't know if I was tired of the leader one back but I went from being right there to like four or five back all of a sudden and at the US open golf course it's not a lot yeah even at Aaron Hills which was not very US open like was still tough to make up on that. that kind of day. So I just got behind the eight ball so fast and I was, I wasn't patient enough, which is something that later that year at Quill Hollow at the PGA, I was very, very patient. And I just kept waiting and waiting and waiting for the right, for good stuff to happen. And it did.

So I think if Aaron Hills had not happened, Quill Hollow wouldn't have happened. And at Quail Hollow, so that's like what, two months later? So you go on to win the PGA championship. If you think about that, final round. How was your routine or anything different the morning of that of that day? I can't think of anything too different the morning of. It's more about how you felt in the round. Yeah, I just, before even, I just, I felt calm. I was playing so well and I felt the golf course set up better for me. It's a tough, tough course and the ball strikers course. I love the course beforehand. I mean, Aaron Hills was, it's just, it's just a different track. But, no, I mean,

my girlfriend was there and we had a nice breakfast, and I just, I don't know, I was, calm. And I felt, I think I maybe went down to, I don't like to work out before I play, so I might have gone down to the gym and did like a little bit of stretching. And I went in and went early and did a little putting, some speed putting before launch. And I don't know, I just, I was very relaxed. And even when I bogey the first, a good bogey after I botched up the hole in the first hole, I just, I knew it was a tough course. And I felt like at Aaron Hill is like I had to make birdies, whereas I knew bogeys were going to happen at Quest. and I just need to stay patient.

I mean, even that back nine on the final round, it was kind of a gamey back nine. Like you had a couple of tee shots that were a little sketchy, and it just seemed like you were calmer. Yeah, I just felt like, it's hard to say without sounding bad, but I just, I felt like I felt like I was playing better than the people that had a chance to win, and I felt like I was better in that situation than them.

So you just had that interbelief? I did. I did. And I don't know whether it was the course or just whatever I ate that morning or what it was. But I mean, I remember on 12 green looking up at the leaderboard and there was five guys tied for the lead. And it's bad and I'm definitely not going to name names, but I remember looking up like, nope, like no. Like, all right, you know, that's going to be something. But I was just like, this is winnable.

Yeah, this is for me to win. Like it's not, it doesn't matter if it's five, if I was tied with four, 2,000 Tiger Woods is like, I was going to. have to go in the golf tournament, but I just, I felt comfortable and I just, I just know that golf course and you're not going to get five people that play the last six holes or five holes of Quail Hollow two under par. That's just, it's not going to happen. I mean, 13's tough, 16, 17, 18, they're all so tough to wear. That's what I was more so thinking. I'm like, three of those guys are going to play those holes over par and they're done. Yeah. And I'm like, if I can just manage my game better and sprinkle in a couple birdies like I'm going to get handed this trophy and

it just so happened that you know I made a couple birdies when I needed to and luckily could just kind of lit my way up 18. At the end of 2017 I mean you're you're the player of the year you had the highest winnings on tour that year. Did it feel like your life had sort of changed a little bit overnight? Like did you start to notice that you were recognizable everywhere and things like that? The celebrity that comes with it, was that sort of unusual? It was, but I still don't look at myself that way even now. It's just, I'm just a 27-year-old dude who likes to golf and happens to be pretty good at it. But, I mean, winning a major changes anybody's life. It doesn't matter if it's your 10th major or your first major. It's

a major championship is everybody watches. You know, obviously the masters, everybody across the world knows but you know all the majors you know they're on those those network channels for a reason and it's it's a big deal and it's the biggest stage in golf so anytime anybody wins a major it's a life changer so it took a little bit because being in the season I mean I'm I had a week off and then I had to get ready for the playoffs so it's not like I'm sitting back and celebrating or enjoying it right so I had to get get back to the grind last year 2019 you start wearing who How did you find out about whoop? I found out about whoop through Rory, actually.

He's obviously been on the podcast, been a user for a while now. But he is somebody, you mentioned earlier about asking stuff. He's also a person that I, I mean, I think the absolute world of him. His family, Erica, they're all just, they're great people. They're not just great offers and great ambassadors, but they're just unbelievable people. he treats everybody and me way better than someone who has done everything that he has should you know it's not you put a lot of people in his shoes with all the everywhere he's being tied or pulled um all the accomplishments he has all the money he has everything that he has

he should not be as nice and and everything as he is and down to earth super down to exactly and it's just i i've i can bring you know a buddy of mine who's battling it out on the mini tours and go out and Rory will be not you know he'll he'll be conversational with him he'll answer questions he has he'll see him he'll say hi to him when he sees him again so it's just it's little things like that that being around him has helped me and I've tried to honestly model not only my game but just my persona and my personality and my swagger after him because he's he's about as good as it gets when it comes to that so but anyway I got to wear It got to wear whooped through him just because I was, again, you know, trying to figure out how I could get an advantage.

And amongst everybody I'm playing against, and he was explaining it, and it sounded pretty cool. And I remember having breakfast with him in Canada after he shot, he had a really, obviously played really well Sunday. But it was on Friday or Saturday. He played really well. He's like, yeah, I, you know, I had a whatever, a 95% recovery and shot 62. You know, obviously, like he said in his podcast, that's not how it works and it's not how golf works. But he just was learning and he's someone who obviously takes his body very seriously and his opt-the-course stuff. So I'm like, well, if someone who's been the best player in the world and has won X majors and all these tournaments and is a great ambassador for not only the game but just for the world is doing something like this, like why couldn't I? And I thought it was something I would just wear for a couple months, just to try to pick up on any specific things or...

Insights for not. Yeah, exactly. Anything that was like a repeating itself. And now it's just, yeah, it's just a part of my life. And what have you learned about your body from WOOP? I have learned probably more so just what you put in it is... It's just like a computer. It's like whatever you put in your body is it's either going to run well or poorly.

And, you know, if I want to feel good the next day, I need to make sure I'm eating really well and drinking a lot of water and not eating close to bed before I go to bed. And it just, it is bizarre, you know. You always say you, you know, I feel like I'm repeating myself to what a lot of guys have said and the people have said in the podcast, but it is. It's just you hear about stuff and you know that drinking isn't good for your body or you know it's not good for your sleep, but it is. It's mind blowing the first time when you wake up and you have.

two drinks and you get, look at your phone, you're like, damn, like, really? It's obviously, there's a lot more to it than just what alcohol does for your body, but it is. It's just trying to pick up on little things here and there. And I've learned what works for Rory doesn't work for me. What works for me doesn't work for him, doesn't work for you, doesn't work for everybody. It's just I wanted to figure out what was good for me. And if I'm going into the weekend of the Masters, and I'm playing really well and I have a three-shot lead to where it's like, hey, I need to do.

know what I need to do, you know, this afternoon tonight, what I need to do before bed to where I feel like I'm going to sleep my best. Obviously, it's not like I can just plug in a formula and all of a sudden they go to sleep at 10 and I wake up at 7 and I feel great. You know, when stuff is, when stuff is on your mind or whatever it is, it's going to be different. But I can at least try to do everything in my power because it's, that's something that's in my control and that's something that's big in golf and everything. is that if you can control what you can control, then at least it gives you a better probability

for what you want to achieve. Now, we were talking about this before, but you're a world-class sleeper. Thank you. I mean, along with being a world-class golper, world-class sleeper. So you average on a nightly basis over three hours of REM sleep,

which is this period of time, obviously, where you know this, but for people listening, REM sleep is when your mind's repairing itself, right? And you're getting an hour and 40s, eight minutes on average of slow wave sleep. How does that compare? That's still really good. I mean, you're getting close to

five hours of sleep a night that's restorative sleep, right? And I bet if you were to compare that across the whole athlete population, that's like maybe two hours higher than other professional. I got to make up, since I don't have like big muscles and I'm not athletically, you know, I'm not like a specimen like some other guys, I got to make up for me. It's also been trending up.

It looks like you keep getting better at sleeping, too. For sure. So what are some things that you've learned about how to sleep more effectively? Water, for sure, water. As I just took a drink, it's like it's when I'm playing, it's one thing. I mean, it's easy when it's 95 degrees in humid in Memphis and July. Like, yeah, obviously you're going to have about 12 bottles of water out there. But it's when I'm home.

It's when I'm out playing golf for fun or out having a money game or working out Those days where I just want to take off and I sit at home all day and watch TV where I'm not, I have no strain on my body, but I'm just sitting there and I need to, I have to keep drinking water. I just, it's so, so important and I couldn't, it's been fun to mess with because it's, in days where I don't have as much, in days where I feel like I just, I try to drink so much water where I almost, I can't even take water anymore. but it's just, it's, it's, it's just good for you. It is. And it's such a cliche thing and something that, you know, has been hammered down everybody's throats for who knows how long, but it's, it's very important. People make fun of me in our office because I have these bottles of water just everywhere around my desk. It's like, I'm obsessed to drinking water. Yeah. Yeah, I need a Yeti. That's right. So, okay, so hydration is a big piece. What are, what are some things that you

might do right before bed? Well, something I've really enjoyed the last. probably the last couple months. So my girlfriend's been messing around with intermittent fasting. Cool. She's doing 12 to 8. So she's not eating until 12 and then stopping at 8. And it's something that I just like to do with her is like, especially if I'm doing it, but more so for her is I never want either one of us to do something alone.

Sure. So it's like, you know, if she's on a diet, I'm like, hey, I'll do it with you. You know, because it's easy for me to say like, oh, don't eat that as I'm like dipping this chip in caseo or whatever. but it's like, hey, I just, I'm so competitive and I just, I want to be so great at everything I do that sometimes it'll cause us to get into some fights, but it's like, I want, like, I want to be able to push her, but kind of like what I loved about what MJ said in his documentary, when he's pushing his teammates, he never told them to do something he didn't do. Yeah, that's a great line. It's easy for me to tell her to do something if I'm doing it too, but if I'm not, then I'm just a hypocrite. So, I told her, I'll do it with her.

I was like, I have to eat before noon. That's not an option for me. Like, I need to. You don't want to overdo it on the diet. Yeah, exactly. I mean, eating certain stuff that's better for you is one thing. But, I mean, if I'm going out to play in the morning, or especially during tournaments, but if I'm working out in the morning, it's just, it's unhealthy to not eat before.

I mean, I'm not trying to pass out or do whatever. But stopping eating at 8 o'clock has been awesome. I've really, really enjoyed that. Although I've, you know, nights where I go to bed later for me at 11 o'clock or whatever it is, my stomach might be ground a little bit. But it's just, it's digested better. I noticed I look better. I'm in better shape. I might be a little bit more toned.

I just, but I sleep better. It's not. You can see it in your data. Yeah, I'm just, I'm not going to bed full. There's going to be scenarios, especially in golf where I don't get off ground until 9 o'clock and that's obviously different. But when I'm home like this and I have an ability to get in a routine, I've enjoyed that. So that's something to where I never, in a million years would have thought that I'd try. But it's definitely helped and I've liked it.

I always tell athletes, especially of your caliber, that they have to try to measure against some of these diets because diets can be so fad-based. I remember we got to work with LeBron when he went on the paleo diet. And it actually had a really negative physiological effect on his body. And if you don't see that sometimes in data, you might think, oh, well, because Ray Allen's having a great result, pillow diet, it's going to be great for me. And that's exactly why I started wearing this, is I wanted, it'd be, you wouldn't need to wear a whoop if there was one formula. Yeah, there you go. If it's, if everybody did the exact same thing, then, well, what's the point of having anything that tracks data? It's, the reason I have it is because I want to know exactly what I can do to make me perform my best and feel my best.

You know, there's obviously going to be days where I slept great and I do this and that, but I might be really, really sore because I did a hard workout the day before. But just imagine how bad I would feel if I didn't get good rest. It is important to mess around with diets. And I have a little bit, but as much as we travel, I think it's very, very difficult to be on a strict diet. And we need to eat a lot because we're spending a lot of hours every single day, sweating and burning so many calories that it's we can't be on some strict you know eat these little tiny portions thing it's it obviously you can eat a lot just need to make sure you're

eating the correct stuff but um i'm not going to be someone you know that just has these little tiny things out it's if i'm hungry i need to eat i need to make sure i'm fueled up to be ready to go out there now what are some things you do to beat travel or jet lag because golfers travel so much it's tough I always think it's harder coming back from Asia from Europe whatever it is Australia was

jet lag I've never experienced in my life that was atrocious I've got your data here this is actually fascinating so when you land in Australia what day did you get to Australia I think we land Tuesday

okay so you have three red recovery days in a row upon landing yeah and then it's just a steady ascent to green on your final day. So at least you were able to bounce back. Yeah. And then it looks like maybe there was some, you know, devious behavior after that, because I see some more red recoveries. That was offseason, yeah. Yeah. Well observed. Absolutely. But it's very tough, but actually something I learned from Jack Nicholas about travel is that he would always, whenever he was traveling, if it's a

long flight, obviously it's a three hour, four hour flight, you don't have that luxury or ability. but anything that's eight hours to 15, 20-hour flights is he would set his watch to wherever he was going. And whatever that watch said, that's what he would do. So, I mean, if we take off right now here and it's whatever, one o'clock, but it's 11 o'clock at night where we're flying to, you need to go to sleep. I know a bunch of athletes who do that. Yeah. And it's helpful. Get on the right time zone. It's, you know, that's where melatonin, whatever it might be, will help in terms of making sure you get to sleep because yeah it's you will you take melatonin i on flights yes uh on flights i if you if you know you have to sleep on the flight yes i because you know you can't

just go to sleep when it's light out and yeah it's tough now uh what about on um on the day of a of a tournament right how are you using whoop like will you be looking at your sleep and recovery in the morning yeah it's it's always the first thing i do is just to process my sleep um I've tried to not get too wrapped up in it because, like I said earlier, about Rory when he had a great recovery and shot 62 or whatever it was, is you can't, it's not, there's a lot more that goes into it than just, you know, you being recovered. It's, me having a 95% recovery can't help me hit a hold five iron draw to a back left pin on 1712 of a major. You need talent for that.

Yeah, that's a different, and you have to, that's you being in the moment and whatever. it's a whole different story but it's going to help it's the biggest thing for me that that i like about it is we all have days where we wake up and we don't feel like ourselves or we're irritable we don't sleep well totally you know maybe you have a crick in your neck or something you just you might feel weird so those days i probably get more out of my bad recovery or bad sleep days than i do good because I go into the day and I go to Jimmy my caddy and I'm like Jimmy like I just I need you today like I need to talk things out I need you to keep me calm like I'm probably going to be irritable today I'm probably not going to be fun to work for but these are days where I need you and

that's where a great caddy is a great caddy and not just a a caddy or a good caddy and yeah that's where he can help me if he can kind of see where I'm starting to get to that point he can help calm me down and that doesn't happen very often often after a great night's sleep. That usually happens after a bad night's sleep or maybe a lot of stuff's going on, but that's where I'm able to look at that and be like, man, I didn't sleep very well. Maybe I don't feel that great. So I need to minimize my activity before I go play. And I just need to save as much energy as I can kind of thing. Well, one interesting theme in your data, especially on weekends where you're winning the tournament. So here I'm looking

it at like the BMW, you shoot the course record, congratulations, you shoot the course record on Saturday, and then you have an even higher recovery the next day with the lead. I mean, some of that to me suggests that you've also really dialed in how to sleep with a lead. Do you feel like you're at a new stage in your career with that? For sure, it's tough. It's very, very tough. But another thing that I've learned with wearing whoop is just you don't want to overtrain. You don't want to, you know, put too much strain on your body. But, I mean, a day like that, or, you know, on Saturday when I shot 61 is I'm tired.

I mean, I had probably an hour of media afterwards. I, you know, I signed a little bit, and I'm not getting home until 8.30 or 8.45, so I'm exhausted. So I'm probably going to sleep good whether I have a lead or not, but doing it, sleeping on a lead before definitely helps. But that's where, you know, when I'm home, It's like the days where I do feel good and I'm able to put a higher strain of my body, that's why I'm able, I feel like I'm able to produce back multiple solid recovery days

because I know, hey, I feel good today. Let's get some work in. And there's plenty of days where I've had a 90-whatever percent recovery, and I've laid in the couch all day too. Like that's not saying, yeah, exactly. And I have to pick my spots of when I'm grinding and when I'm not. It's very easy to sleep after some long days on the golf course, especially in Chicago and in August when it's a million degrees. It almost helps maybe to be exhausted because then you're more likely to just fall asleep than think about what you got next.

Yeah, as soon as I hit that pillow, I get, I mean, I get treatment afterwards and I'll get home and eat. And then I do, I travel with Norma Tech, so I do those at night and I'll do those are probably 15 or 20 minutes. And as soon as those things come off, it's bedtime. It's pretty much counting down the minutes before I go to sleep. On the mental side, you know, are you doing any kind of visualization going into a round? Or how do you like to approach that? You know, golf's so visual. I think I subconsciously do.

I don't, I don't try to. It's not like I'm going to bed. Like, okay, so tomorrow I'm just going to, or as I'm going to sleep, like, okay, you know, hold on a second. I have to think about the whole round. I don't. Yeah. And it's sometimes funny because. I can, I never have thought of this, but I just, as I'm explaining it, I can, it makes sense

now, but I can kind of tell how tired I am to see how far I make it. You know, sometimes I'll get to like two fairway and I just, I'm out. So right before you're going to sleep, you're actually visualizing the playing the first hole. But I don't even try to. It just happens naturally. Yeah, because you're, I feel like it's hard. One thing I loved, I talked to you about at the, I think the seal that you did a podcast with about trying to count to ten without thinking about anything. Oh, it's so impressive. Mark Devine. Great podcast. Yeah. And at the same time, I would have to imagine it's pretty hard to lay your head on the pillow and not think about something. It's almost impossible to not think about anything.

So me just being a golf nut and being in that, especially in that grind in middle of a tournament, you know, I'm putting my head down. It's just, first thing comes in my head is, I mean, I I can't tell you the amount of times I've played Augusta National in my head as I'm going to sleep. And I probably have played one, two, and three a million times, but I don't make it very far past that because I'm asleep. I mean, that place is so special, huh? I had the good fortune of getting to play there once. You've obviously played there a bunch. What's so special about Augusta?

I don't even know how to describe it. It's just, it's such a beautiful place. It's like it's... They comb the squirrels there. Yeah. I feel so dialed. Have you ever been to a place where there's that many pine trees and you don't see a squirrel? You don't see any birds. Like it doesn't, it does not make sense. It's like it's a weird place. It is in a cool way. It's got a magical vibe. It is. It's just, it's special. The crowd, the buzz it has when you're out there. Everybody's so nice. Everything is so organized. It's just it's, you know, they have one tournament that they, well, other tournaments, but they're, you know, they're, main tournament they put on is once a year and they make sure it's the absolutely best experience we and everybody involved has and it is. Let's go back to your routine for a second. So on the fitness side of things, you're obviously a fit, healthy guy. What are things that

you like to do to exercise or to keep your body as optimal for golf as possible? Yeah, for me, I think it's a lot of golfers are the same way, but for me especially, I'm always focused on my hips, my back, and I've been focused on my wrists a little bit more since the injury last year, but that's been nothing but great since I came back. So we're always wanting to get stronger, but we're wanting to get functionally stronger.

So my trainer, Colby, I started working with him in January of 2017, and it's been great. He's such a good dude. He's super, super positive, which I love to be around. Yeah, it is. It's kind of the same that we're talking about earlier about asking people stuff is I don't want to, you know, he might be one of, some ex might be my best friend when I'm home. But if he's negative and complains about everything, I don't really have any desire to share houses with him, to eat with him during the week. It's like, I don't, I don't care to be around you. It's not, that's not bringing me anything good. I think it's an important lesson. I mean, you know, it's really hard to get to the level that you've gotten in life. without being very focused about the people that are around you. And in fact, you see a lot of super talented pro athletes

whose careers almost seem like they've been derailed by their inner circle. Absolutely. Your inner circle's huge. I mean, I'm very, very close with a lot of my high school friends. I just, I get along with them so well. They're great. They never ask anything of me. They just, we're really, really close. And I mean, I have three of my guys that come to Augusta every year.

they stay. I get two houses, a house for me and a house for friends and family, and they come and they stay every year. It's great. You know, they're just, they're my boys. There's plenty of other people that are in that same friend group, but they're just kind of the three guys I'm close with. Now, in the gym, how do you like to use whoop? I just, I like to see, you know, especially where my heart rate's at, to see maybe something that I've done before that has generated a certain heart rate number and then maybe as we train a little bit more consistently or as I feel like I'm getting a better shape, that same thing. Maybe my heart rate's lower. I feel like I'm in better shape. So it's that stuff is fun to mess with. I really, really like looking at it during tournaments,

or after, obviously after a tournament to see what my heart rate's like. And I, you know, I can get specific and kind of look and be like, okay, I was in 17 Fairway right there. Like, why did this, Why did it go from 110 to 140? You know, what was I? Yeah, what was going on? So that part is what's so cool about it is just to try to figure out why that's happening. And I mean, obviously, I want to try to stay here, but that's, I know that's not going to happen, especially in golf. There's so much of this in the game, but also the emotion side of it.

So I just, I don't, I know it's never going to be like this, but I don't want it to be like this. You know, I want to kind of hang in more of that range as opposed to this range. So same with the training is I want to get my body in good enough shape where I feel like in our warm up, all of a sudden my heart rate's at 80. It's not at 90. And then it's like, okay, as those first couple circuits, it's not at 120 anymore. It's at 100. And I've noticed it has gotten better.

But then there are those days where, you know, we have the kind of one day a week where we go at it pretty hard. And it is kind of fun to see what you can push yourself to and how high you can't get that heart rate. Now, when you're standing over a putt like the one on 18 at the President's Cup with Tiger Woods, do you actually feel your heart rate elevated? Are you trying to bring it down? Are you just ignoring that whole concept and focused on the putt? I've never thought of it before. I just am, I'm focused on one thing and one thing only, and that's making that specific putt that I have. Will you acknowledge that you're nervous in a moment? For sure. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't understand why someone would do something if they're not

nervous because if you're not nervous, that doesn't mean anything to you. There's definitely good nerves and bad nerves. There's a, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous. I'm scared to fail nervous. And there's like a, this is such a big moment. I can't wait to make this putt and show everybody, you know, this moment nervous. So there's butterflies and then there's bad nerves too. But yeah, it just, It always, it makes me laugh and honestly drives me crazy when some guys are like, I'm as stubborn as they come, but I don't understand how some guys can be so stubborn to say that they're not nervous teeing off Sunday at Augusta with the lead. It's like, what are you dead inside?

Like, no, it's not possible. I mean, I'm nervous teeing off at a, anytime I go play Augusta for fun, let alone the first round of a tournament, let alone the first run on Sunday with a lead. So there's nothing wrong with admitting you failed or didn't do well, but it's, uh, It's just so funny to me to hear and people are like, I'm not nervous. And I'll be the first one to admit when I get nervous, but it just sometimes are more than others.

It just differs. Has Tiger admitted to you about being nervous during rounds? Him? Yeah. We haven't talked about it too much. I think it's, I don't know. I try not to ask him too much about stuff in the past because I know that he's only been asked five million times.

And I think that's probably a reason why we are as close as we are. they'll be it's kind of like it'll be like a once every couple months thing we're all just have like a day we're all just pepper them with stuff or like if we're watching an old tournament you know like we watched the masters last year one day together over this time and it was just like I'm like oh you know like what were you thinking there like what about there and it's it's fun here and the greatest player of all time for us talk about how nervous he was over this put or you know it it cracks me up of all shots That little putty had on 16, he was so nervous. This year? Or 2019? Yeah, when he won. It's a three-footer up the hill dead straight. I mean, he caught his caddy, and he tiger's like, Joe, Joe, come look at this.

And Joe was like, what? He was like, look at this. He's like, pro, it's three feet. It's uphill. It's dead straight. Like, just hit it. Like, you're good. And it just, it's so funny because it's, everyone would assume, you know, he was the most nervous on

12 t-shot but it's like you never know sometimes it's that it's that least expected moment it probably knew that making that put would win the we win the tournament probably but but like there is some level of there's something refreshing about hearing that even for me as someone who's just sort of generally competitive in life to know that this guy who almost seems alien and his ability to perform under under stress feels nerves too like it's just a level of humanity that we all have For sure. And I think that goes to the point of what I said is if it doesn't mean anything to you if you're not nervous. So I would be worried about the day where I have, if I have a 15-footer to win a tournament on the last hole and I'm not nervous, like, we've got bigger issues than me trying to win the tournament. This obviously doesn't mean enough to me to keep playing this professionally.

So that's just, that's how I feel about it, though. Let's play a quick game called Good for Golf, Bad for Golf. I'm going to say something. You tell me what you think is good for golf or bad for golf. So we'll start easy. Tiger Woods has come back. Good for golf. Very good for golf. Boy, that was easy.

Start. Yeah. Okay, how about the USGA? Somewhere in between. They're trending. Man, that's tough. I think they're doing some things that they mean to do good for golf, but they've done plenty of things that are bad for golf.

Like the U.S. Open that was tripped out at Chinook. See, I don't have a big issue with that. I think that they just messed up a couple pins. Like, Shinnecock is tough, the U.S. Open's tough. But what I just can't stand is how they try to trick up Shinnecock. Or they have to put a pin right here. It's like, dude, it's Shinnecock. This place is hard.

Put the pin in the middle of the green and two under still going to win. You don't have to do anything. So that's what drives me crazy in terms of a golf course setup and how they won't reach out. to the PGA tour. I mean, the PGA tour, that's what they do. Yeah, the staff, be more collaborative. They set up, they set up courses for their job, but they do it 46 times a year, whatever it is.

And like, you do it once a year for us. Why would you not talk to them or ask them? It doesn't make sense to me. Like, if I'm, you know, if I'm doing something in your profession, why would I try to do it by myself? I'm pretty sure I would ask you for help to make sure that's uncorrectly. So that's where I just am. blown when it comes to setting up the U.S. Open is that they don't reach out to the PGA

tour staff or players even. It's like they're just too stubborn and want to do it themselves. Okay. How about Bryson Deschambo's point of view on all these different like details and different points of view on like how to understand golf? I think that the last part of what you said is good for golf in terms of looking at different ways to understand, you know, what's going on, but all the scientific and all the methods, no, that's, it's not for me. It's just not for everybody. It's the same with trying to get a routine of what works best for someone. Like, no, yeah, I don't think that that part is good for golf, but trying to figure out what works best for you, then, yeah, that's good for golf. Slow play? Bad for golf. How do you fix it?

I think we're in the right direction, but, I mean, you put 5,000 cars on a freeway, it's going to be pretty packed. And you put 156 guys in a field, it's going to be pretty packed. So I truly don't think that anything's going to get that much better if we keep the field size as big. It's just the way that it is. So you think there should be less players in the tournament? I don't think that in terms of because I don't think guys deserve not to play. I'm fine with that. I love it.

But we can't complain about play being slow when there's that many people. It's just, it's a traffic jam. It's not, there's plenty of guys, yeah, we could implement the slow play policy to where guys have to hit a shot in X amount of time or this. But like, are we working, are we doing this to save seven minutes on a round? You know what I'm saying? So it's not like once we start this policy, rounds are going to get 45 minutes faster. If we got rid of 30 people, then, yeah, round the round.

when I get 30 minutes faster, or 45 minutes faster. So that's just what I think. I hope that there's a way that somehow both can happen because I don't want to get rid of guys that are in fields, but at the same time, play isn't going to get that much faster if that many people keep playing. I was listening to you, and I don't know if this was your idea or the host, but the idea of posting the top 10 slowest rounds.

Yeah, I love that. Like you walk into the locker room and you see people's names for who played the slowest? Yeah, you don't want to have your name up there. we all know who the slow players are and they know that they're slow but they seem in denial though about it honestly of course no slow player thinks they're slow nobody bryson doesn't think he's slow and he's slower than anybody i mean he's i i bryson's fine as a person like i get along with him great he's a good dude but he's slow like it just you can't deny a video that takes some two

and a half minutes to hit a put and then tell me he's not slow yeah right so that that's the hard part is that is admitting you're wrong sometimes and uh jordan did a great job with that speed he was very slow and he admitted he was slow and admitted he was working better at it and now he's great what about the leave the pin in rule where you can i think it's bad for golf i i don't like the look i don't like it's just weird it doesn't feel right i'm i'm not buying the whole speeds up play thing it's it's it's a pin like it's not yeah it's not something that, again, like, it's going to shave 11 seconds off of a round. And if anything, I think it's slower because if someone wants the pin out and someone wants it in, then you're

just going back and forth. It's a great point. I don't, I am no way shape or form buying that that is, makes pace of play faster. So I think it's bad for golf for many reasons. Belly putters? Bad for golf. Why do you think so? It's cheating. Yeah, I mean, just because you're uncomfortable to try to make a putt in the last hole, It doesn't mean that you should be able to shove a putter in your stomach and all of a sudden your nerves go away. Or if you have the yips, it's like it's no offense, but that's not my problem. You know what I mean? Yeah, I just think any kind of anchoring is bad for golf because it's not, you know, it's not everybody else's fault that you're not a good putter.

Now, how about some of these cheating scandals, like the Patrick Reed Bunker thing? It's tough. that was that the scandal or the everything that came out that's not good for golf it's just not but I mean it's hard to argue with the video I mean the video was what it was and you could see it but but he obviously you know it's hard for I can't personally say I wasn't there I wasn't right behind it all I can say is what I saw in the video and it looked like you know you could you gave him a hard time for that the president's got too yeah and and I no way was promoting him doing that promoting cheating.

No. He was my teammate for the week, and I need to, look, like, guys are going to give you a hard time this week, and I need to loosen you up and kind of... Dress the elephant in the room. Yeah, and brighten the mood a little bit, and that's all I was trying to do. And I took a lot of heat for that somehow, but from a lot of people, but at the end of the day, I didn't really care. I was just trying to help my teammate out that week.

How about Matt Wolves' golf swing? I think it's good for golf. I think it's cool. Yeah, it's very cool. Matt's a good dude. He's, I mean, so he's a hate-sake-sake-k kid, but he is. And it's a perfect, it's been a while, you know, it's probably since like a Jim Furek that somebody has come out and done really well with a very, very unique different swing.

And it's almost like he has the opportunity to be this generation's Jim Furek of saying, hey, look, you can play really good golf with a really weird looking swing. And it's very repetitive and he does obviously very well. It's amazing that he's that good because it looks hard to repeat. There's so many moments in it. So many moving parts. Yeah. many moving parts. But hey, as long as, like he said, as long as it's repetitive and continues

to do the same thing every time. And he keeps shooting the scores you're shooting. I don't think he cares what it looks like. Now, as we're winding up here, is there anything you're looking forward to with Woop or anything you're hoping that we put in the product? No, I've loved the ability of the journal of writing stuff. And I know we talked about it too. Oh, cool. One thing that I would love to see is to like really be able to save certain days and I think I'd mention that to you to where like I would love to have an archive of especially I think it's probably more so for athletes that wear it is you know if a basketball player you know has these four games where he had 40 points I'm sure

he would love to go back and look at the recipe before to see because for me that would make me a lot more willing to want to write in my journal just so I could on those seven rounds that I have saved where I shot under 63, all of a sudden I'm going into Sunday. I have a two-shot lead at Augusta and I'm like, well, I wonder what I did that night before. And I'm looking, I'm like, wait, like I ate four of those nights, I ate grilled chicken and sweet potatoes and well, I'm having grilled chicken and sweet potatoes a night. Like, it's a no-brainer. So, and then vice versa. If I have eight rounds where, you know, I shot 73 or higher, I would love to have those to be able to go back and say, man, like, boy, look what I did or, wow, that's so bizarre. And I just

coincidentally ate four of those eight nights, I ate the same meal. Or I, you know, I ate this side. The pattern recognition. Yeah, just, and that's, that's the biggest thing for me is just picking up and on things. And especially with golf, how superstitious we are. But a lot of athletes are. And I really do feel like across different sports guys would love to be able to have that information saved and almost like a folder to be like look good rounds bad rounds good training days bad training days you know good days in the office totally just things like that to where i don't have to go to a calendar or have to like specifically go to the calendar and click on the day and then go back whereas i can just almost like the the break the breakthrough days

feature yeah exactly you go to a little archive of a big day you know kind of like i can And the teams where I can just click on the team, which I also love. We've had a good time with that, me and some of the other guys. Who are you on a team with? It's myself, Ricky Fowler, Jordan Speeat, Smiley Kaufman, Jessica Corder, who puts up bizarre numbers, Brad Gale, and Bud Collie. What a fun team. It is, yeah.

Will you ever text like a Ricky and be like, hey, looks like maybe you shouldn't be playing today or anything like that. No. And that's what's funny. I mentioned it to Rory and it kind of got pushed to the side. So I don't think he wants to be, you know. I mean, some people are more personal about their data. Some people want to be on a team. Well, another thing, too, is if I'm, if Ricky and are going into Sunday and, you know, he's got a lead on me or we're ahead of the pack and he had a bad night sleep and I had a good night sleep, it's going to be pretty hard for me not to bring that up. So that I can see that. There's something fun about that. Yeah, it is. And I'm not, You know, I don't want to be in a group with the entire PGA tour, but those are my really, really good friends that I know wear them, that we can needle each other.

And, you know, it's, for example, that's that Monday after the President's Cup, you know, those guys will screenshot and send it and be like, well, it looks like you had a couple drinks last night. And I'm like, yeah, I did. That's what it's there for so that we can, we hold each other accountable. But it's just fun because not everybody's in the same routine and the same schedule. So it's just fun to look and kind of needle each other. I think the camaraderie in your sport is really special. We were talking about this a little earlier, but just how collaborative is. And the fact that you're actually friends with Jordan Speath or these other guys

that you've spent a lot of your career sort of competing against. It's different, frankly, in other sports. It is. And I think kind of like I mentioned to you before is that we have such a low winning percentage that we understand we're not going to win every week, whereas, you know, like, Alabama football is probably going to win, you know, 11 games, 10, 11, 12 games in a season. So they can have an off day and still win a game, whereas like, okay, if I have an off week, I'm not going to win the tournament. So if I'm not going to win, yeah, I want one of my buddies to win.

Whereas like, if Alabama doesn't have a good game, they hope Auburn loses by 70 still. And I do too. It's like, it's just the way that it is. And it's like, same with divisions, you know, in football. It's, you know, the Steelers and the Ravens hate each other. and the breadsocks and the Yankees hate each other. Louisville, Kentucky. It's just, it's, that's just the way that it is.

So it's, you, not that I don't have that mentality. I mean, they're some of my best friends, but I still want to crush them and destroy them any time I'm in contention with them. But it's something personal. I just want to beat them. Yeah. I'm still going to be, you know, really good friends with them

and want to have a beer after the round or whatever it is. But while we're out there, it's one thing. But in those teams, I think it's pretty much they just hate them all the time. You know, that's another thing about professional golf is I think your mindset of, I have to win this tournament, you really are thinking mostly about yourself trying to win this tournament. It's less so about, oh, I hope Jordan misses a putt on 14. For sure. You know, like you just have to focus on yourself. Yeah, it's kind of like I said when I was talking about the PGA, when I was on 12 green and looked up and five people were at 7 under or whatever it was, is I'm like, okay, yeah, I understand that some people are going to struggle.

with the finishing stretch, but just like you said, it's, I'm not pulling for them. I'm like, look, if I make two or three birdies, this is mine. It's just the fact of the matter on that golf course. So, yeah, you know, tennis, I'm sure, you know, like you said, Nadal, he goes out, plays Federer. Federer's like, man, I hope Nadal has a bad day out there so I can kind of get him today. But in golf, it's all, if Roy and I go out there in the final group, I'm like, obviously it'd be easier for me if he didn't play well when I played well, but it's something fun and cool about when two athletes or two golfers are playing really well and they're battling it out,

and one of them just plays better than the other, like Stenson and Phil did it at the open, that was crazy, yeah, whatever, two, three or four years ago, you know, they were both so far ahead of the field and they both were pushing each other and playing the best golf that they could play, and Stenson just played a little bit better, and that's pretty cool. Well, look, for all of us at Woop, it's so cool to just see how Woop has explained. loaded within golf and especially for me as a casual fan of the tour but you know having you on whoops just been amazing and we feel really fortunate to see how much value you've gotten out of it and I think you're an incredible ambassador for the game and what you've been able to accomplish

at your age you should just be really proud of yourself I know you're probably always thinking about who can I beat next or the next tournament you know a lot of that that MJ last dance mindset I think you have but you know just it's it's so cool to see what you've been able to accomplish in the game. Thank you. Yeah. No, obviously I'm a huge, huge fan of the product and I just it's not just for someone that's a golfer and athlete. I think especially this day and age in terms of I feel like we're kind of in a fit mindset in the world now and people wanting to get themselves better. And I just, I really do feel like it's something that it doesn't take that much effort and experimenting different things and trying different things. But seeing

you know, what golf swing works for you, seeing what you need to do day to day and at night and a part of your routine that will help you feel your best, perform your best, whether it's in a sport or in a profession, a job at a desk, whatever it is. And I've just enjoyed it and continue to enjoy the grind, I guess, if you will. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast, Justin. Absolutely. Pleasure to have you on Woof. Thanks for having.

Thanks again to Justin for coming on the Wooke podcast. We wish him enormous success this season, green recoveries and trophies. A reminder, again, you can use the code Will Ahmed, W-I-L-L-A-H-M-E-D to get 15% off a Whoop membership. Check that out at whoop.com. Please like and subscribe the podcast if you haven't already. And you can find us on social at Whoop, at Will Ahmed. We love to hear from you. Thank you, everyone, for listening.

Stay healthy. Stay green. Thank you.