WHOOP Podcast - Rethinking Intimacy and Sex in Relationships

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

Looking to improve sex and intimacy with your partner this Valentine's Day? On this week’s episode, WHOOP Global Head of Human Performance, Principal Scientist, Kristen Holmes is joined by WHOOP SVP Research Algorithms, and Data Emily Capodilupo. Kristen and Emily discuss the impact of love on your neurobiology (00:34), intimacy as a spectrum (2:08), the role of technology in intimacy and the benefits of intimate moments on the body (5:35), the effects of toxic relationships on the body (9:18), and cultural and societal views on sex (13:40). Kristen and Emily answer questions on how working out builds intimacy (16:41), and the best time of day to have sex (21:35). Emily and Kristen finish the episode by discussing the importance of communication in relationships and sex and how WHOOP can positively impact your relationship with your partner (36:02).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

When we consider the people we're interacting with on a daily basis, if we want as many people around us who make us feel safe and make us feel love, you know, when we have people in our lives who are doing the opposite, that has enormous impact on our physical and mental health. Check your circle and that we have choices in our life generally, right, in terms of who we bring into our life and who we choose to spend a lot of time with. then I think it's just a good reminder that the people we surround ourselves with impacts our health in such profound ways. Emily, happy Valentine's Day. I love that we get to have this spicy combo today. So we're going to start with an overview of how love impacts kind of a neurobiology and physiology and whatnot.

And then we'll get into kind of whoop-specific data. There are kind of three neurobiological. players in the game of love, your brain, your hormonal levels, and your vagus nerve, which of course connects the brain to the rest of the body. So we're going to kind of start by breaking all of that down. So Emily, what is happening in the brain and in the body when we experience sexual intimacy? We'll just jump in. All right. So there's this whole symphony of hormones and fireworks. Your dopamine's going to spike. It's going to give you this like, rush of pleasure motivation.

Oxytocin, which is your love hormone, is going to enhance bonding and trust. Then endorphins, which are kind of feel-good hormones, they're going to flood in. They act as like natural pain killers, natural mood boosters. We also release those when we work out in general. And then towards the end of sexual intimacy, it release prolactin, which promotes that like satisfaction feeling. and helps promote bonding. As you're responding to all of those stimuli and going through those acts, you get this one after the other, you know, different hormones that make you feel good

for different reasons. So there's kind of like the spectrum of intimacy, right? There can be just the snuggle, you know, to intercourse, right? So we've got this like full spectrum. Is it, you know, what are the, when we think about kind of dose, so maybe duration, you know, I know there's some really cool research that you need to hug for at least six seconds. I mean, that's such a short amount of time. But talk a little bit about that. Yeah. And I mean, I think like there is a dose response kind of effect here. And you get benefits,

even in the stuff that feels a little bit more PG. Even just looking into your partner's eyes, there's this really cool observed phenomenon that when we're deeply connected, again, no physical touch required, we actually will start to naturally, subconsciously, match our respiratory rate and match our heart rates. And we do this when we're sleeping is a totally unconscious effect. And that promotes a sense of like connection and calm and, you know, can release these like bonding hormones, your oxytocin. And so just feeling connected to somebody who love. And again, connection doesn't have to mean physical connection has the beginning of a lot of these physiological benefits. And so it's one of the reasons why the pandemic was so damaging. Like,

we are not meant to be alone and to be isolated. And physical connection is super important to our, like, health and well-being. You know, social connection, even just among friends, it doesn't have to be relationships, are one of the best predictors of longevity and health, especially in, like, older age, it's protective against dementia. It's like all these things is so, so important. Like every part of your body just responds to being around people you trust and feel safe with. And good hormones start just at the, I'm with you, I trust you, I feel safe. And we see our bodies quite literally sync up like your respiratory rates match.

Interestingly, women tend to benefit from this slightly more than men. Oh, it's actually really cool. Interesting. Women have slightly smaller hearts than men. And so naturally our resting heart rates are a little bit higher to compensate from that. So when we sink up and kind of meet somewhere in the middle, our heart rates come down and theirs come up to meet ours. Ours being the women and then there's being men. So women's heart rates go down. Men's heart rates come up to kind of meet in that middle. And so the women get the benefit of their heart rates being kind of naturally pulled down and their respiratory rates being naturally pulled down, which is calming. So just talking a little bit about the PG stuff, because I find that really fascinating, because that's a bulk of our interactions, right, are at this PG level, right? We're having intercourse maybe once a day for lucky. So, you know, that's potentially less often, right?

So we can really leverage these PG interactions, you know, to increase, I think, our autonomic nervous system function. We'll get into that a bit more. But really what's happening in these interactions, we're activating the parisimbic branch of our nervous system, right? which is the rest and digest, the calming branch of our nervous system, which, you know, we spend a lot of our day kind of in these more activated states, right? Because we're having to do a bunch of stuff. And that's totally normal. But building in these many moments of deactivation are obviously

is super health promoting on mentally, physically and emotionally. So I wanted to ask you just your thoughts on just the role of technology, because you mentioned eye contact, right? And just looking into someone's eyes, we're getting, I think, further away from these many moments of intimacy, even with strangers, where we can connect and bond and release all these wonderful hormones that you're talking about. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that just generally. You know, if you zoom way out, like physiologically, why is it, why do we activate our rest and digest system when we're with somebody, right? And it's because, like, one, like, it's very beneficial to get into that state because there are physiological processes that we need.

need to, like, quiet our autonomic nervous system, essentially in order to make room for. So, like, if our body's in this active mode, if I need to be hyper-responsive, you know, any threat could show up at any minute, we divert resources away from things like digestion, which, quote-unquote, can wait for later, and we, you know, move them into, you know, getting your muscles ready, you're being like, that sort of, like, tense on-edge feeling, if there's a real physical threat is incredibly protective and productive. when it's just like I'm nervous about some meeting is super counterproductive, right? So like there's a huge physiology environment mismatch that goes on.

But generally, the reason why we get into that parasympathetic state when after a even just again totally PG or G level interaction with a stranger is because our bodies are essentially outsourcing some of that vigilance, right? I connect with you. I feel like I can trust you. And then I say, I can be a little bit less vigilant because we're being co-vigilant. And we actually see this a lot with sleep. Like, people get into the deeper stages of sleep and stay there more when they share their bed than when they sleep alone.

Yeah, we see that in our data. Yeah, we see that in our data. It's been published, you know, even prior to whoops founding by other people, right? Like, sleep is an incredibly important physiological state, but it's also a very vulnerable one. And so if we don't feel totally safe in our environment, we don't get into those deepest stages of sleep where we're the most vulnerable as easily or for as, like, long chunks of time. We wake up more. We kind of, you know, spend more time surveying our environment when we're awake. And then it's like we don't get quite into those same deep stages. When we're with somebody with we trust, we're like, okay, I'm going to like let you wake up a little bit. And you actually see this incredible thing in partners who have been together for a long time where their wake events are out of phase with each other. So you're kind of taking turns, waking up and letting the other person get into deep sleep. And so there's this really cool, totally like unconscious thing of like sinking and taking care of. of each other. And so it's that release of vigilance because I'm looking out for you. You're looking out for me so I can calm down a little bit. I don't need to just be, you know, doing it all. And so

you don't get that over Zoom. You don't get that over a phone call. And it's not to say that those conversations aren't meaningful, right? Like they serve to maintain relationships so that when I do see you again, it's not, oh, I haven't seen you in four years. It's, you know, we've been talking regularly and now I'm so excited to see you again. And so it's not that they don't have a place, but they don't allow us to kind of get into that same like parasympathetic state as physically being together with people you love. And again, physically doesn't mean touching, but just kind of co-located. Yeah. So you pull in a couple important threads. Number one, you know, there's really interesting study that looked at hormonal levels when people

were texting versus FaceTiming, and obviously FaceTiming wins. So whenever you can do that, that's kind of the preferred modality over texting as it relates to just all of these positive kind of hormonal benefits and impact on the nervous system. The other thread that I think is really important to touch on, and I think we'd be remiss, you know, not to talk about the impact of toxic relationships, right, on the nervous system. Because I, you know, I think when we consider the people we're interacting with on a daily basis, if we want as many people around us who make us feel safe and make us feel love, you know, when we have people in our lives who are doing the opposite, that has enormous impact on our physical and mental health. So maybe let's break that down a little bit, you know, just to remind people to check your circle and that we have choices in our life general. right, in terms of who we bring into our life and who we choose to spend a lot of time with.

And I think it's just a good reminder that the people we surround ourselves with impacts our health in such profound ways. Yeah. And I think like, you know, toxic relationships do exactly the opposite of what, you know, we were talking about in terms of like outsourcing your vigilance. Because when you're with somebody that doesn't make you feel safe, you can't get into that parasympathetic state. In fact, it's your behave rightfully so as if you're in danger. And so you get this like intense, you know, sympathetic activation, release of cortisol, strong stress response, your body can't relax. And if you're, God forbid, in a toxic relationship with somebody who you live with, right, that means that you're always in that state. And so if you're never able to get into that parasympathetic, I feel totally safe, totally comfortable. I can outsource some of my vigilance and stress.

Then like that builds up in a really unhealthy way. This is the Valentine's Day podcast. So, you know, like that kind of long-term chronic stress, you know, decreases libido. And, you know, it starts to spill over. Stress is really, really productive and healthy in bursts. But in order for there to be benefit, it has to be in these interval bursts. You have to come into that parasympathetic state. That's where you get the benefit of whatever happened in that stress state. And so if you never get there, you're just like accumulating, I think of it as like recovery debt. And then all of a sudden, all of these processes that are totally fine to kind of deprioritize short term, like put off digesting to run away from a threat, then go back to digesting rate, all of a sudden starts to become problems. And that's why you start to feel like you get like issues related to inflammation. It's hard to sleep well. You know, you just kind of feel like you're not like your energy is low. Immune function is another big, big one, you know, if you find yourself kind of getting sick

and check the stress in your life, you know, because that's usually there's a pretty strong relationship, you know, between stress and sickness. And that stress can come in the form of relationship. So it's important to keep an eye on that. All right, let's shift gears a little bit. So let's just talk about hormonal changes, things like birth control, pregnancy, menopause. So let's talk about kind of female health and intimacy for a second. Hormonal birth control has been shown to lower libido. It gets talked about a lot like that. think maybe a more helpful or kind way of describing it is you don't get the increased libido that naturally cycling women experience prior to and around ovulation when we are fertile

or kind of about to be because if you have intercourse in a couple of days, three or four days prior to ovulation, the sperm will actually live long enough too. So like everybody learns in school, right, that like you have sex and then like the sperm go find it. an egg. More often than not, the sperm have been sitting in you for a few days and then find the egg a few days later. The point is that in that period where intercourse could lead to pregnancy, our hormones are telling us, go get it. And so if you're suppressing that ovulatory moment, you're not getting that big LH surge that makes you horny because you're on birth control, then you kind of miss that moment. So basically, we have this kind of baseline level of desire

or horniness or whatever you want to call it. And then when we are fertile, that gets really increased. And so some people notice this more than others. Some people are more attuned to it. That's your body's way of saying, let's try and get pregnant this month. What is your take on the kind of societal and cultural expectations around kind of sex and relationships in their relationship to stress specifically? It depends which societal and cultural, you know, phenomena you're talking about.

I think that pretty well documented. phenomenon at this point that the increase in things like porn and it's free availability and ubiquitousness has created unrealistic expectations and puts a lot of pressure on people to create what's quite literally fake entertainment yeah um and like stress and arousal are kind of opposite and inhibit each other right so when when you're around that reduces stress when you're stressed that reduces arousal. And so if you start to get into your head of like trying to recreate, you know, quite like a Hollywood production. Yeah. To perform will make you enjoy it less because you're so in your head of like, you know,

like sex is supposed to be messy. It's supposed to be raw. It's supposed to be real. And I think like if you get too in your head about the supposed to bes or things like that, it makes it harder to enjoy it. Yeah. Just it's so accessible. There's very little effort. to actually get it. So that impacts dopamine and the reward system. Maybe just talk about that link real quick. Because I think it's important for people to understand that when the effort, so when we don't have to work hard for something, but we get a reward, that's the wrong kind of dopamine. Right. And then it makes the kind that you have to work hard for really frustrating. Exactly. Yeah. You kind of reduce your tolerance for effort almost.

There's a lot of foreplay that happens off camera in order to like create the scenes that they create. And so then it creates this, like, weird expectation that, like, things happen, you know. Right. Without any of that anticipation and play. And, yeah. And then people feel like weird or guilty or wrong or broken or whatever for wanting things to, like, start slow, which makes bad TV, but, you know, a really great experience. You know, like we said, there's so much physiological benefit to the G-rated stuff. And even things that, like, you don't even think of as for play, you know, like, doing something together, like going in the gym or cooking dinner or whatever, like kind of prior to that, like, creates intimacy and bonding and, like, trust that then, like, you know, again, like reduces your stress levels, which is going to increase those, like, arousal hormone levels and then have you arrive at this, you know, the sexy time, already in a state where your body is, like, ready to produce and receive those hormones

versus, like, being all stressed out, running around, doing a million things. And then, like, you know, your partner's, like, want to bang? And you're like, no. Yeah. But if you have that incredible, engaging, stimulating conversation over breakfast, you're thinking about that all day. And then all of a sudden, you know, that afternoon or night, you're in the mood, you know. And we actually get a really cool listener question about the same thing.

She was like, whoop, podcast team, TMI, my boyfriend and I want to know. And she's guessing that it's an endorphin thing. Is there any link between working out with a partner and sex drive? Whenever we work out together, I always end up in the mood after. I'll do workouts on my own and then come home and want nothing to do with him. But then I'll work out with him and then all of a sudden it's quite the opposite. Any thoughts? Love the question, not TMI.

They just like want people to never feel like embarrassed or whatever about their bodies. Totally. Yeah. It's all fair game. So love the question. Thank you for asking it. Definitely, you know, endorphins are related to them. that. And the fact that you're both getting the same surge of endorphins, which exercise creates

at the same time. So again, like, you know, a lot of intimacy is about being on the same page. So if you just work out and, you know, he's answering emails, he's getting stressed. You're getting the endorphins. Then you come back and your, your arousals kind of met with his stress. And that can be kind of a mood killer. So I think it's not so much that you don't have the same endorphins if you work out alone. But there's something really kind of beautiful and productive in that direction about hormonally being on the same page. Like we like vibes are a real thing. And so I think like there's an element of vibing there. I think there's another element here that's super relevant of just, you know, the bonding and synchronization, the fact that you did something

together. My guess, because it sounds like you work out a lot, it's also something that you value. I think there's something really attractive about seeing your partner. are living your values. Again, it like goes to that idea of trust and, you know, intimacy and safety that this is somebody who's kind of feeling, yeah, like we have shared priorities, shared values, like all of that kind of stuff I think is a turn on, right? It makes me like trust that this is who I think it is and, you know, somebody that I want to be around and all that kind of stuff. It's reaffirming in so many ways. Yeah, like reassuring and yeah. And not to mention it's like super attractive when someone is taking care of themselves, you know? Yeah. So,

So that was the third thing I was going to say, right? Like, everybody's kind of attracted to different things. But again, if, like, exercising is one of your values, you might be the kind of person that just, like, values self-care and taking care of yourself, working out on top of that, right? You're like, you're sweaty, you're flexing. You know, it's also could be a place where you're a strong person or, you know, an impressive person. And, like, you might be doing things that I'm like, oh, like, cool, impressive, confident, right? And, like, kind of all of those attributes, if those are, quote, unquote, quote my type. And, you know, again, this is your partner. So probably is. They're sort of displaying

some of the things that might be reminding you of why you were attracted to them. And if they're sort of stressed on the Zoom call, again, you're kind of walking into not seeing them like in full display of the reasons you were attracted. And you might still be supportive of them doing work. But like, you come back from the gym solo and you're wondering why you're not like as turned on. it's because you're sort of not being met with all of this affirmation of like, this is my guy, I'm attracted to this guy, you know, and then add on top of that, you both have these same wonderful hormone surging and you're just like, let's do it. Yeah, yeah, totally.

So it makes a ton of sense. And I think the gym particularly elevates that because of endorphins, but for anybody who's not, you know, that's not the thing you do with your partner, you know, it's any form of doing something together that is an expression of values. And that can be really simple, like doing the dishes together, right? We've out to clean home. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, you know, shared values is such a strong path to intimacy and such a critical component, you know, that I think oftentimes in a younger relationship, that might not be the first thing that you think about necessarily. But I think, you know, as someone who has been on this planet for quite some time now, I will say that that is really at

the cornerstone, you know, is that the shared values. and then acting on them in really intentional, explicit ways. And that is certainly, I think, a path to greater intimacy, which leads to better emotional and physical health. All right. So that was Jennifer. Jennifer, thank you so much. I know people love when they get a little shout out.

What's up, folks? If you are enjoying this podcast or if you care about health, performance, fitness, you may really enjoy getting a whoop. That's right. You can check out WOOP at WOOP.com. It measures everything around sleep, recovery, strain, and you can now sign up for free for 30 days. So you'll literally get the high performance wearable in the mail for free. You get to try it for 30 days, see whether you want to be a member.

And that is just at Woop.com. Back to the guests. We've got another one from Peter. Peter really enjoyed the insight on how the timing of workouts throughout the day can impact recovery and sleep. And he is very aware that late-night meals are a killer for him on a recovery. And we also see that at that population level. So he's not alone. And it got him thinking, what else could have that kind of effect?

Is sex earlier in the day better for the body than later in the day? He's not sure if we have any data around that, but could be interesting to look at. Yeah. And there's a lot of different factors to consider when you say better. And that's why I generally don't like the question. better because better for what? Sex is good for your relationship. Intimacy is good for your relationship. It doesn't have to be penetrative. Touching even is not required. So kind of define intimacy however you choose. There are benefits to doing that, you know, in the morning because it

puts you in a good mood. It's going to put you on a nice trajectory to feel good about your partner, feel bonded, and you get to carry that with you for the rest of the day. And there's a pretty well documented phenomenon, right, where it's like, if you have a moment of connection first and then, you know, you go downstairs, you make breakfast and you do something that might piss me off a little bit, like I'm way more likely to kind of be resilient to that friction because, you know, I just had this reaffirmation of, you know, I love you, you love me, like we're on the same team. And so I think like it makes us let things, you know, just brush by versus if you don't take a moment to connect, whatever that means for you, say first thing in the morning, and then

you go right downstairs, you're making breakfast and, you know, something that would annoy you happens. And now you're just like, that's sort of a benefit to starting your day with connection, right? Yeah, like a kiss and a hug and a good morning and, yeah. There's a cute thing that I make my husband do because I read about it. But like, you know, if you hug or kiss for like, and hold it for at least six seconds, that's enough to start the oxytocin production. So even if you don't have time.

for anything else. You probably have six seconds. Get your six second hugger kiss in. And then that breeds goodwill that you get to kind of coast on and tap into. Yeah, it's like a buffer. It's a buffer. Yeah. And it's cheap. It's easy. It's fun. Yeah. Try it out. Valentine's Day resolution. If it leads to more, good on you. Now let's talk about kind of the opposite. So before bed. You're starting to get into a bit of a different trade-off space because going to bed later has its downsides. But you have to balance that against the fact that intimacy in that wind down period, so let's say the 30 to 60 minutes before bed, because it reduces stress, you know, with all the good hormones, will actually improve sleep quality. So there's a bit of a balancing act where going

to bed, say, 20 minutes later to make room for 20 minutes of intimacy will actually have like a positive ROI because you will now sleep better. So, you know, the seven hours and 40 minutes instead of eight hours are higher quality and you will wake up kind of more recovered. So, you know, to an extent, it's like it's worth pushing off sleep because you will sleep better, recover more. And again, like, there are long-term benefits that we talked about at the top of the podcast around, you know, social connection. And so investing in a relationship with your partner long term is a great investment. Now, there's a limit to that, right? I'm not going to say have, you know, push off sleep for five hours of intimacy and then only get, you know, three hours

of sleep. Those might be three very high quality hours of sleep, but there's kind of no amount of perfect quality that are ever going to make like three hours of sleep adequate. And so it's not indefinitely a positive ROI activity, but it'll vary kind of from person to person. And it'll vary based on like how active the activity is. But kind of that like 15, 20, even 30 minutes, it's probably net net good. It's good for your relationship produces hormones that help you relax. It'll increase the quality of your sleep. And so if you are in the mood and you want to create just a couple of minutes for that activity,

don't feel like bad or guilty or pressured against it because, you know, you're trying to optimize for sleep. best case scenario, you get into bed 20 minutes earlier. Yeah. And 20 minutes before you would have gone to bed and then you're not in the same way making that trade off. But we do tend to see that, you know, people do kind of struggle to get into bed earlier. And so often it's at a tradeoff with sleep. And so you just want to be mindful of that sweet spot, especially if, you know,

you have a firm time that you have to wake up the next day to not make it take too long. All right, Emily, we've got another question from a listener who's dealing with some shared bed issues. And this is Courtney. She says, hey, whoop, I have a question around whether or not too much snuggling is a thing. I have spent the last two years sleeping with my dogs in the bed. And ever since I moved in with my partner, we have four of us trying to share the bed. We try to keep the dogs off the bed. But that has really not been working. They always find a way back up or just whine outside the room all night. When all four of us are in there, my sleep score goes down and my data tanks. Am I doomed if I can't get these dogs to stay off the bed?

That's a tough one. It is. I feel for Courtney, I have a tiny little dog who does sleep in our bed and I love it. So I think on its surface, no, too much snuggling isn't a bad thing. And actually snuggling can be quite a good thing, makes us feel safe, release that oxytocin, all those field good hormones. Snuggling to the point of somebody disrupting your sleep and not letting you get restful sleep, especially given that she's seeing her data tank, does suggest that this is not a situation that is working. Either there's not enough room in the bed or too much movement among all the different players. There's a couple of different solutions here if the dogies are, you know, Velcro dogs and struggling there. I've seen things like elevated dog

beds that get you kind of up to the height of the bed, but still in your own space. That could be a good solution, especially if they're just going to whine and keep you up from whining versus move around your bed and keep you up from movement. It's a little bit lose-lose. So thinking about how you can get them to be near your bed and feel kind of, you know, their own sense of security and comfort and relaxation, but not so disruptive to you as the bed's getting a little crowded, it sounds like. The elevated dog beds seem like an amazing solution. There's a whole bunch of different options for that.

And some of them even have like a mesh barrier. So it almost looks like kind of having like a crib pulls up against your bed so you can see each other or smell each other, which is really important for the dogs. You know, if they get up and move around, it's not, they're not walking all over you. I don't know from what Courtney said if these are kind of. big, heavy dogs. The dogs like to be touching you, though. That's kind of the problem, you know, is like that's where they get.

Their feeling of safety is the, you know, having the paw or the, you know, the butt. And I think, you know, where it seems like Courtney's struggling a little bit is maybe too much touching. Yeah, yeah. And that's disrupting her sleep. And so if it feels like too big of a leap to just train them to sleep quietly in their crates downstairs, which I know I epically failed to train my dog. So zero judgment there. But just like, you know, if they could see and smell you and kind of be next to you, well, that's not going to be what they prefer.

It might be the compromise that lets everybody get the best night's sleep. You know, I think very tough on a new relationship. If you're constantly prioritizing the dogs over your partner, it sounds like maybe they're not sleeping super well either. This one is a, it's a tough one to rectify. But I think to your point, I'm like it's worth probably figuring it out, you know, because you want to protect your sleep and, yeah, just kind of figuring out the tradeoffs. And it's a good question because I know there's probably lots of other folks who struggle with that.

So I want to finish off talking about communication. And you can take it in any direction. So if you want to talk about communication during intimacy or just communication inside a relationship that sets the stage for healthy intimacy, maybe communication that helps promote intimacy, I suppose, in a relationship. And just a few things that you think are really important based on the literature that we know exists out there and just your personal experience. Yeah. Ooh, fun question. Okay, so communication is really important for so many reasons to kind of tie it back

to some of the things we've already talked about in this pod. We talked a lot about the need to get into that parasympathetic state. In order to get there, I need to feel safe. I need to be safe because, you know, if your immune system's super active, right, that's a form of not safe what that gets you have to be, but I need to feel and be safe to get into that parasympathetic state. What I'm thinking about, you know, a relationship and particularly one with a partner, feeling psychological safety, right, that I can say how I'm feeling or, you know, what's going on or, you know, admit to a flaw. And that's not going to be twisted or held against me or anything like that or, you know, put back on me is super duper important. And so communication when

done well, lets me get into that paracmpathetic state and strengthens that bonding of this is somebody who makes me feel safe, who I can outsource my vigilance and worry to and relax. When I try and communicate and it's sort of misunderstood, then I don't feel that like safety and all of a sudden I get tense. I get vigilant. I activate and start to release cortisol, which inhibits arousal and inhibits intimacy. And so you kind of go in that opposite direction. So even something that has nothing to do anything remotely sexy or about your relationship, just having a good conversation where people feel heard, is going to make all, you know, that other intimacy and stuff just go a lot better.

And, you know, I think it's also like practicing the trivial stuff and like having the trivial stuff, like makes it then safer to say the less trivial stuff and, you know, up and up and so to get to that place where I can have that really, really deep conversation, Like, you have to have a bunch of kind of silly conversations, right? That's why small talk is a thing, right? Like, it's really safe to talk about the weather. Then you kind of feel out the weather talk. And then you're like, worried about the snow tomorrow.

You know, and you kind of can, like, creep up a little bit from there and get into the stuff that feels more vulnerable and you're kind of feeling out there. And then once you've established with a partner that, like, we can go there and it's okay, all of a sudden, like, you can get into that really relaxed, sympathetic state, even if you're talking about something consequential. Yeah, I mean, I think you highlight probably the most important component of a healthy relationship is fostering psychological safety. And we know that when you're underrecovered and underslept and, you know, in this kind of

chronic sympathetic state, it's really, even through your best intentions, it will be really hard to create a scenario where you are enabling psychological safety in your partner. Yeah, and that's in large part because the more under recovered and kind of worn down you are, the more you act on impulse and instinct as opposed to getting into that highest plane of cognition and intent where you can filter through who's the person that I want to be and how do I want to show up in the world and what do I really want to say to this person? Instead, you kind of get that like that snappiness is snappy because acting on impulse is less work and faster than filtering and thinking. And so if you're just getting that kind of raw reaction instead of what I wish I had said, you know, it's not as beautiful, elegant, and intimacy promoting. And then I just want to end because you asked, you know, we talked about the conversation types that build psychological safety. It's the same thing that builds intimacy and good sex, because if I'm worried that you're about to do something to me, even good intentioned in a sort of physically intimate situation that I'm not going to

like or that I'm not ready for you're going to go too fast or like do something weird right like all of a sudden I'm getting tense I'm getting nervous and you know if that sounds like the opposite of sexy it's because it is and it shuts down my desire to do that and so if you're having good conversation within the intimate moment and you know feel like you can say more of this less of that you know all of those kinds of things feel heard and like trust that um you know your partner is trying, not just trying, but going to succeed in like making this a good experience for you, then you don't get all those activating, sympathetic, intimacy killing, you know, hormones that say, whoa, get me out of here. And instead you're just like, yeah, this is going to be great and you get

all the great stuff. And so you want to practice it when you're talking about the dishes and the weather and all that kind of stuff so that it's second nature. You want to have fun with it. Yeah. And maybe just to add on, you know, communication is also nonverbal, you know, and that's where, again, like, you know, even though you, maybe you're under-selected and recovered you're doing your very best to kind of bring your best face forward, you still will hold your face and your eyes unconsciously in a way that does not actually promote psychological safety. So I think it's, you know, obviously we want to, you know, sleep and recovery and being really aware and intentional about doing our very best to manage those as practically as we can

will actually help foster intimacy and relationships, right? And I think people often don't see those connections, right? But I think that is such a fundamental aspect to being a good parent, you know, and having, you know, wonderful, intimate connections with your children and obviously with your partner. You know, the foundation to that is really, in the path of that, is really taking care of your sleep and recovery to a degree, right? Can I end with one story that feels really relevant here?

Oh, yeah. Back in 2015, we had a VIP on Woop. And he and his wife were both on it. And they're both, might imagine, totally burning the candle on both ends. And they reached out to us after a couple months on Whoop and said, Whoop saved my marriage. And we were so, what do you mean? I remember.

And he said to us, and honestly, like, this is a decade ago. And it's one of the most interesting stories that has really changed the way I build product here at Woo. He said, when our recovery scores are low, we snap at each other. And so we start our morning by saying, what's your recovery score? And if either of us are read, we give each other space. And so they found through whoop, this, like, language of, hey, like, I'm not able to show up the way I want to. So I'm not, and rather than, like, piss you off by, like, not having control of my face and my nonverbal language and all of these things, let's give each other space. And I think, like, a takeaway for people is, like, whether it's through whoop or just, you know, a moment of checking in with yourself, it's important both to try to always be in a place where you're promoting psychological safety, but also.

also to learn how to, like, vocalize that I can't do that right now. And I was thinking about this because, you know, last night my husband was trying to tell me about his day and I was trying to get dinner on the table for my toddler who was pissed at me because I gave her the wrong color fork. You know, I put my daughter's dinner on the table and I didn't give her the rainbow for because it was in the dishwasher and she was super angry. And, you know, my husband's trying to tell me about his day. And I was just like, I'm not ignoring you. I need to like, and to just like say, like, because I wasn't, I mean, I was ignoring him. Right.

And I was not making eye contact and was not giving him the time of day because I'm sorry, you're an adult. I feel like you need to like naming and saying out loud like, you know, I can't do this right now so that it doesn't read to him. You know, and then of course he realized, okay, yeah, you're kind of in the thick of it right now and backed off. But then, you know, didn't have to feel like, you know, why is my wife ignoring me? Right, right.

And so I think like getting. You know, it's so important to promote this, and it does matter even in these little ways. You know, Whoop can help you identify that you might not be in a place where, like, these skills will come easily to you or relatively easily to you today. But, you know, even if you're not on whoop, really have that moment of checking in and get comfortable with vocalizing it because you can then avoid doing the damage that not voicing the situation will just make you look like she doesn't like me or, you know, she's rude or whatever. And it's like, no, I'm just like in it. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Emily. This is super fun. Thanks, Kristen.

Happy Valentine's Day. If you enjoyed this episode of the Woop Podcast, please leave a rating or review. Check us out on social at Woop at Will Ahmed. If you have a question to us answered on the podcast, email us, podcast at Woop.com. Call us 508-433-4952. If you think about joining Woop, you can visit Woop.com. Sign up for a free 30-day trial membership. New members can use the code Will, W-I-L, to get a $60 credit on W-A-W-A-Ccessaries.

when you enter the code at checkout. That's a wrap, folks. Thank you all for listening. We'll catch you next week on the Woof podcast. As always, stay healthy and stay in the green.