WHOOP Podcast - Steven Bartlett: The Secrets to Success in Life and in Business

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

On this week’s episode, WHOOP Founder and CEO, Will Ahmed is joined by entrepreneur and innovator, Steven Bartlett. Steven is also a speaker, investor, author and the host of UK's No.1 podcast, The Diary of a CEO. He also joined the BBC's hit TV show Dragons’ Den, the UK version of Shark Tank, as the youngest-ever Dragon in the show’s history. Steven just released his second book, 'The Diary of a CEO: The 33 Laws of Business and Life' in which he shares his learnings having interviewed some of the world's leading experts, celebrities, and business professionals. Will and Steven discuss how Steven has viewed himself throughout his career (3:08), how he got started investing (6:55), Steven’s role as a founder vs a CEO (12:01), where Steven derives his learnings from (18:35), his personal mission (21:20), constantly evolving with a growth mindset (24:15), the benefits of bias in a CEO (25:20), a risk that paid off (28:16), what keeps leaders up at night (30:10), feeling like an underdog and the power of experimentation (33:05), interviewers that Steven admirers (40:30), his new book, Diary of a CEO (44:45), and how Steven prioritizes his health (53:17).Resources:Steven's Website Will Ahmed on The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO: The 33 Laws of Business and LifeSupport the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

What's up, folks? Welcome back to the WOOP podcast. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, founder and CEO of Woop. And we are on a mission to unlock human performance. That's right. And this week's episode, we are dealing with a high-performing individual. That's right. Entrepreneur and innovator, Stephen Bartlett.

He's a speaker, investor, author, and host of UK's number one podcast, The Diary of a CEO. which is an unfiltered journey into the remarkable stories and untold dimensions of the world's most influential people. I had the pleasure of joining Stephen on his show to share my story about founding Whoop, and now he is returning the favor. Stephen's debut book titled Happy Sexy Millionaire, Mid the Sunday Times Best Sellers List, he also joined BBC's hit TV show Dragon's Den, the UK version of Shark Tank, as the youngest ever dragon in the show's history,

and he just released his second book, the diary of a CEO, the 33 Laws of Business and Life, which we dive into on this podcast. We also get into how he started investing and the entrepreneurial life. He talks about being the youngest person in the room. His role as a founder and CEO, vision, creativity, marketing, team culture, we get into all of it. What keeps Stephen up at night? Learnings and anecdotes from his newest book. The power of absurdity in marketing.

This is a great example and lesson. He shares a story about spending a ton of money on an infamous big blue slide in his office and how that ultimately led to a lot of sales. And of course, how Stephen has used his WOOP in his everyday life to improve his health and wellness. We're grateful to have Stephen on Woop. A reminder, you can sign up for Woop for free.

30-day trial. Just go to Woop.com. I have a question once he answered on the podcast. Email us, podcast, at Woop.com. Call us 508-4-4-3-49-2. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Stephen Barley. All right, Stephen, welcome to the World Podcast. Thanks for having me, it's a honor.

Well, I had so much, such a pleasure doing this with you on the diary of the CEO, and congratulations again on the amazing podcast that you've built and this huge community around all of your interviews. Thank you. It really changed my mind in a lot of things, and I genuinely realize. Once in a while, I want to have a podcast. guest on, what I notice is that in every subsequent conversation with my friends, I'm like preaching at them about something I've learned. And that's what happened after the conversation

with you, so much so that I've actually written about our conversation in my new book. So thank you for your time. And thanks for coming on. Well, of course. And we're going to talk about your new book here in a minute. I want to start with you. I mean, 31 years old. You're a CEO. You're an investor in 40 companies. You are a top podcaster. I think. the biggest podcast in Europe and growing around the world. In sitting here in this moment, like, how are you reflecting on your career? I don't really reflect on my career, to be honest, because I think I've done the reflection. I think I do the reflection on a daily, hourly basis.

So I don't have a lot of time or see a lot of value in. looking back over the last 10 years. And I think actually that's been one of the biggest unlocks in my life generally has been a practice of reflection and making that super iterative and super frequent. And I actually say to people that ask me about personal development, the single biggest personal development hack I can give to anybody if you want to accelerate your wisdom

is by taking more wisdom from the hours in your day by creating some kind of reflection habit. But it's been fun. and I consider myself a success if today goes well. It's kind of a frame I think through. So hyper-present. Yeah, yeah. That seems to be the most beneficial way to live life.

I think that's right. I think it also, it helps us in being young relative to the people we're in the room with. When you're more present, I think you come across also as being a little bit more humble, more grounded. And you've accomplished an enormous amount. a very young age. How's it been for you, you know, often being the youngest person in the room? I think it's important to realize the opportunity that that presents. And your mind can go one or two ways when you're, if there's any form of prejudice, either in your mind or in the mind of those that you're in the room where, it can take the pessimistic route and see that as a

disadvantage. And labeling theory teaches us that then that will actually become self-fulfilling. So I talk a lot about stereotype threats and you can impose stereotype threats for yourself so you can assume that your age is a disadvantage or you can assume as I did from 18 years old that being young was actually probably my biggest opportunity to surprise people. And what I mean by that is walking in rooms at 18 years old

when everyone in the room is double my age and not my skin colour, me being aware that there might be some prejudices because I think prejudice is actually natural and human. I think they're useful at times that their estimation of me versus my delivery and my impact, my delivery, the delta there was impact. So someone's underestimation of you through age or whatever else can actually be a huge

opportunity to create that delta. And that is what led me to be successful young, because as an 18-year-old, they couldn't believe I could string a sentence together. So people wanted to invest in me. They put me on stages. They got behind me. They lifted me up. And it's funny because I reflect on the email I sent when I was,

20 when I was 19 years old and in the email I said I was I was 18 and I just turned 19 by a couple of days but I reread the email to my first ever investor in the email I said I'm 18 I saw being young as a bigger advantage than saying 19 than saying 19 and I tried to hang on to my youth and I thought I think those are the same hit code but yeah for me it was like I preferred being young and there's a huge well, even being on Dragon's Den now, which is the Sharp Tank out here, I realize that that is my USP. My USP is being able to resonate with a young audience more so than my fellow dragons, some of which are two or three times my age. And I imagine that's helped frame a lot of your marketing agency, Flight Story. You've worked with top brands, Coca-Cola, Apple,

you kind of go down the list of really successful brands. What for you, led to starting that. I had no intention of starting that, but I think by nature I think in terms of first principles. And in 2012-13, it became really abundantly clear to me when I did my first principal analysis that social media was had a huge sort of attention arbitrage. It was just a cheaper way to get eyeballs. And regardless of conventional thinking saying all these native things about social media, the thing, the skill I've always had is being able to focus on what's true, regardless of the noise and at that time

it was clear to me that I could do posters, flyers and a lot more of the traditional stuff which I was trying to do for my own company at the time but the thing that got us two million downloads on an app

in an afternoon was doing this Thunderclap on Twitter where I got 50 social media accounts that we either owned or didn't own and got them all to talk about the thing without posting a link to download the thing and used high emotion in all the tweets so they were, it was a game that we co-owned

at the time. We got 50 of these social media accounts to say, absolutely addicted to tipping tab, I've just smashed my phone on the floor. And we'd post photos of smash the phones. We never told people to go download it. I never told them what it was, but trended number one, two million downloads. So you couldn't unconvinced me of the power of this medium when harnessed in the right way. And that's actually a really important point, because when innovation happens and there's new marketing channels or there's new opportunities, skepticism and pessimism is actually, for me,

often a sign that it's causing cognitive dissonance, it's causing psychological discomfort for the incumbents, it's challenging them in some way. So when we think about AI, we think about blockchain, think about social media, so like Web 1, Web 2, Red 3, all of those have caused that same pessimism and cognitive dissonance, which have proven to be an indicator of an important opportunity. So now, actually, if I'm doing something and there isn't, and it's not pissing off be incumbents, I almost assume that it's maybe not the opportunity I thought it was. You must piss people off. Yeah, it's one of the laws in the book.

I just think I've interviewed a lot of founders, and the founders that are able to cut your own industries, are able to spend less on their marketing, do so because they create what I describe as a cult behind the brand. Now, in one of the chapters in my book, I talk about how to create a cult, and I actually do some studies on cults and what makes them cults. And one of the defining traits of a cult is they believe something so passionately, they believe they're right about, and the world often thinks they're wrong about the thing.

And great brands, whether it's like the broodogs of the world or a ton of brands that I case study in the book, they all have that, where they're so strong and clear in their values that the outside world have an adverse, almost allergic reaction to it. and I've spoken to so many founders who say we piss off the 80% to get to the 20% who believe in what we believe

and in marketing I've come to learn that indifference is the least of profitable outcome if there's indifference towards your messaging you've got a real problem and when I say indifference I mean when people don't care either way in fact on the walls of my office 10 years ago was make people feel something either way

and the inevitable outcome of making people feel something deeply is you'll make another group of people feel something deeply as well. It won't be the same thing, but it's an unavoidable consequence and great brands. They know who they are. They stand by their values and they really do piss people off at some point because it's an inevitability of getting to that 20%. It's an amazing and challenging thing to harness within a company. You know, that what are those values that we believe so strongly that we're comfortable alienating other people about? Founders do that well. Appointed CEOs conflict. Well, founders also, I think, earn a little bit more credibility to make that

best. The challenge with being appointed CEO is you're being judged by a board of directors more closely. You're being judged by, you know, the two or three other people who weren't named CEO who are reporting to you, you know. And so in those cases, you're actually, you run the risk of what you just said, which is trying to please everyone on landing in indifference. And also, you've been at work since day one. So I was going up your staircase earlier and you've got, you know, you've like numbered the staircases. Yeah.

And being an appointed CEO is kind of like coming in on staircase number seven. Yeah. You don't have the context of the previous six staircases, which actually determine the future staircases. So a founder can look backwards and forwards, whereas an appointed CEO can only really look forward and they don't have the information of the past. And that information of the past really where I think is found if we build our conviction to the point where we can go to a CFO and say, we're doing this, I just know it.

And you almost have to, like, justify why you believe it in words and in data and metrics to a CFO, but you just know it. Totally. How much of your identity in thinking about your role today is as CEO versus is as founder? Super interesting. I don't think I'm a typical CEO, which is kind of funny, because. My podcast is literally called the guy or a CEO, but I don't think I'm a typical CEO, if there is one. I think, to be fair, as is the case with a lot of CEOs, the thing I'm good at is understanding

what the future looks like and the opportunity that is coming, I'm really good at the creative stuff. So anything in terms of understanding me and consumer and how to get them to take a certain behaviour, it's no surprise that the two subjects that I did in school were psychology and business, and I used to steal the psychology textbooks. I got kicked out of school before attending to the other subjects. But those, that was my obsession in it still is today. So vision, marketing, psychology, creativity, team culture, finance, process operations. There are much better people at those things than me and I surround myself with them. And I defer and give that those responsibilities to them. But I don't believe there's anybody better that I've encountered at building team culture,

vision, creativity, marketing and those kind of things. And like innovation is within that. yeah i mean it seems like you anchor more to the identity of the founder just for what you're talking about i found over time it was helpful for me to think more about what it meant to be a CEO because the founder part comes so naturally right like that's the that's sort of the DNA of building the company. It's the gut reaction feeling that you have. It's the it's the willingness to be stubborn in the face of a bunch of people disagreeing with you. To me, those feel like founder things that you kind of can come back to. Where I've found an advantage to thinking of myself as the CEO in the context of running a company that's 500 and 600 people is as it relates

to processes and, you know, operational cadences and working with a board of directors or working with investors, like, there's a certain maturation that I feel like that's been productive for. Like, in thinking of myself as a manager as much as a founder, you know, in the earlier days of running a company, so much of a company's output can be from your individual contributions. And then you get to a certain scale where, you know, almost 100% of your output needs to be that of managing the people around you. And so it's just an interesting shift and it's a little bit of a mindset thing. Like, am I the founder today or am I the CEO today? I'm not surprised that the founder of the loop would be interested and decide to make that shift.

Yeah. Because it's about process, you know, data, information. So I'm not surprised that. sat with founders of so many companies where the founder's gone, that's just not who I am, and I've no interest in being that person. You know, Ben Francis is an interesting example from Jim Shark, how he

started as a CEO, the minute the company hit 30 people, he removes himself from the role, he then goes and works, and every department in the team for the next seven, six years, then appoints himself back as CEO again after seven years. And then Hewle, which is the path of growing Econ company, again, I'm an investor in the business. He

was the founder and CEO. The minute it got big, it bounced. He said he appointed a CEO and he's just the founder and he plays the visionary creative product development role. And that suits him. So I think self-awareness is really the key here. Self-awareness is like, and then Richard Branson, I sat with him in New York for two hours and I was talking to him about that. And he's the reason I wrote this chapter called Ask Who Not How, because he's 55 years old, I believe, when he's in a meeting and they're talking about revenue profit, net profit, gross profit. And he hasn't got a clue what they're talking about.

He's currently running at that time, the biggest group in Europe and the Virgin group, doesn't know what they're talking about. So someone pulls them out the meeting and draws a picture of a seat and they put a net in it and they put fishing in there and go, Richard, that's your net profit. He goes, right, got it. 55 years old. Yeah. And he always, he goes, you don't really need to know any of that stuff to be a successful, to be a successful business person. Yeah.

We just kind of need to make three numbers roughly. But even then, just make a really great product. Well, I think this theme that we're also touching on is the notion of what it means to be a CEO has evolved a lot. And especially, I think, for our generation of folks becoming CEOs, it's a more self-aware, more empathetic leader, if I were to sort of stereotype. I think it's someone who is, you know, driving for answers anywhere in an organization. I feel like the case study on a CEO 20 years ago was a little bit more hard-nosed, a little bit more hard-charging.

This is what we're going to do. You know, a little bit more Harvard Business School case study, right? Consulting background. Where are business is coming from these days? A lot of them. Well, it's a kid in my bedroom. He was 18 and knew something about TikTok. Click this button on Shopify.

and the thing just started selling loads of units. What they would get at was making TikToks. Yeah. So what you then see happen is they create this huge business accidentally. They're now technically the CEO and founder. And I say to founders all the time, like make sure you get out of your own way. That's a huge thing, you know? Because there's this public pressure for you to remain as CEO,

irrespective of whether that suits your skills stack. So the self-awareness to get out of your own way, which is why I always praised Ben at Jim Sharp and going, when they hit 30 people, this is not for me. If you've got an ego, relinquishing the title of CEO, which has been sort of glamorized in society, it's the person people want to interview,

takes a mindset that says, I don't care about being, I care about being successful, not about being right or the fame part of it, really the glamour. And it's funny because that is actually the route to being right in the fame. That's what I say to founders, like, if you want your company to be successful, get out of your own way.

That means you don't be CEO and you go work as a marketing intern. That's going to make you look like a rock star in tennis because you're the founder of this business. But it's self-awareness, which is hard. Where do you feel like these lessons are coming from for you? I mean, you're imparting wisdom that feels, you know, much deeper than your age and years that you've been at it. I'd say two things. It goes back to what I'm at the start about introspection, because I think you can run the course of the 24-hour day,

and naturally, without introspection, you might get, let's just say, you might get four points of wisdom from that. If you have a process where at the end of the day or the week, and my process has been the obligation to create content, the single biggest driver of my personal development, has been the obligation to create content, not the desire to, knowing that if I don't post at 8pm, there's a problem, right?

That means that in that 24-hour experience, I might get four times the amount of wisdom from that one of our experience, just because for three years, at 8 p.m. every day I had to post a quote. So I could be on holiday in Barbados with my girlfriend, and she would know at 6pm, I needed two hours to think of someone to say. And as the requirement technique dictates, the way to really learn is to experience something, to write about it, and then to try and teach it to other people. That's the essence of learning. They say the person who learns most in the new class. as the teacher. So having to do that every single day based on what happened that day is the biggest personal development hack I've ever seen in my life. So imagine, you know, I go through the day, my girlfriend's arguing with me because I'm working too much. And then at 8pm that day, I need to think, I need to put that into 140 characters and tell the world in a way that's going

to resonate with them. So I write the quote, if we're in a relationship, I want to be your second priority. I want your first priority to be you, your life and your future, because if we're happy alone will be happy together. I posted that because we had that argument that day. And it taught me something really fundamental. And that goes viral. It's actually my most successful credible time because it just took off in the world. And it taught me something about writing as well, which is you want to be counterintuitive. If we're in a relationship, I want to be your second priority. It goes against the grain. So I did that every day for three years. I found truth in my day and I shared it with the world and that is the essence of learning so the teach it

principles a pretty amazing concept teach it to a 10 year old is the key yeah so you've got to be able to simplify your your evidence that you understand a concept is your ability to simplify it when you meet people and they use complicated words it's probably because they don't understand the thing they're talking about so you want to learn something you want to then write about it and then you want to teach it to a 10 year old and if you teach it to the 10 year old this is just a hypothetical 10-year-old. If you teach it to the 10-year-old and they don't understand it, you have to go back to the top, which is you have to relearn it yourself, and then you have to write about it, and then you have to try and teach it to a 10-year-old. Yeah, and your evidence

that you understand something is other people's comprehension of it, I think. Like, you were able to, if that's your mission, your mission should be able to be understood. Do you feel like you have a personal mission today? Maybe the hardest, maybe the hardest question anyone could ask me, because life is so more infested that I have many personal missions in my relationship with my dog, my family, with my businesses, but I would say the overarching one is to see, see where my potential is. I've said that for about 20 years now, genuinely 20 years. I think I want to know where my potential is, and I think I actually create my potential every day to push.

Yeah, to push your potential and see what you're capable of. See one? Yeah, exactly that. And it's not moved off into the future as I've achieved things, but that is the thing that I think is the most interesting. As it relates to my working characteristics, I will be happy if I have a sense of forward motion in my life. I think all of your team members here will feel the same. They have a sense of forward motion in their life,

which we call the progress principle. So Harvard Business Review, interviewed thousands of people in work, and the days they reported highest happiness was when we had a sense of progress, It also speaks to why when I interviewed Sir David Brelseford, who took the depressed, unsuccessful English cycling team and made them the best to ever cycle, he said to me, okay, the marginal game things really matter, which is making the pillow softer and the bottles bigger. The overarching thing that nobody talks about is when we found these tiny games, which are the easiest to find, much easier than big games, we felt like we were going somewhere. So on a psychological level, the team that were depressed and thought they were down and out, just by finding these small games, we felt like we were going somewhere. that led us to find more games. They created this psychology within teams.

So progress, sense of board motion, challenge, which is a subjective thing. It's different from, for everybody in this room. Everybody needs a different depth of ball to swimming to be engaged. If they swim in the same depth after a year, you'll notice it, people will come and ask you for meetings about their future.

Right. And I think in my head as a CEO, I can tell you, I should know, I think I do, the depth everyone in my team is swimming at. My job is to keep them at the, depth that keeps them engaged. Like game psychology says we don't want to do the same level of difficulty on repeat or motivation. And if it's too difficult, we lose motivation. High degree of autonomy and control, super important for me in my life, for all my team members. We have

disease and lots of other psychological issues when we don't have control and autonomy. Subjectively meaningful goals, so things that are subjectively important to me. And as I'm sure you've noticed, you ask every member of my team why they're here, different reasons. I don't care. Yeah. As long as they have one. Right. And lastly, working with people that I love in a supportive community, which is why I'm bullish on getting people together.

Well, the thing that's very easy to observe is just a real growth mindset that you have for yourself. You constantly, you're struggling to be growing and evolving. It doesn't seem like you take that much satisfaction in where you were yesterday. It's all about

the next battle, so to speak. Do you think that's everyone? No. Do you think it's everyone at varying degrees? I think it's most people who have achieved the success you have at your age. Okay. So you don't think it's, you don't think everyone requires a little bit of growth?

Well, I'm defining growth mindset maybe slightly differently then, because I think everyone wants, well, I think we're talking about motivated people, right? I think motivated people generally want some form of growth. When I think about a growth mindset, I'm thinking about people who are saying to themselves, how can I get 1% better today? And every day for the rest of my life. And I don't know that that's as common as a thread, even amongst motivated people. Interesting. And I think that people may also have certain behaviors or styles.

that undermine a potential growth mindset. I've come to learn from interviewing a lot of CEOs that they all seem to have these defining traits or like biases that have manifested in the products they created. So as a CEO, what are the traits or biases or the frame that you think through that you've come to learn is different that is correlated to what you created with group?

Well, as it relates to the product specifically, I think the biggest bias I've had is this notion of it needs to be worn 24-7. And that as a framing created a whole number of design decisions that followed. So in the case of the research I did for WOOP 12 years ago, it turned out a lot of the interesting physiological data points were not a moment in time, but they were in evolution over time. And so if you could measure them 24-7, not just in short periods, because so much of the technology I was researching, you know, it would be a heart rate chest strap that you could wear during exercise.

It would be a sleep lab that you could visit once a year. It'd be an electrocardiogram that you could see at a hospital for a period of time that you're in a hospital. Like it was these slivers of time. And so I thought the power to health monitoring is if it were continuous. And so a lot of the bias in building whoop the product has been, I would say, a relentless focus on how do we make it 24-7. And so then so many decisions have followed from that. The idea, for example, that it doesn't have a screen on it is in part drawn from the fact that we want you to wear it all the time.

If it has a screen, then it's a watch, and then it's competing with other people's watches, and you're going to take one watch off to wear another. The idea that you can wear a modular battery pack to charge it without taking it off, again, back to 24-7 wear, never take it off. The fact that it's largely material and doesn't look that much like technology, That starts to blend into aesthetic and fashion and identity, which again, make it something you can wear 24-7. So I'm curious about that, because the other only time that I will ever take my loop off

if there's a real jewelry outfit covers. So if I'm doing something on like a show where they want to look fashionable and I end up putting all my gold bracelets on and my gold rings on and my gold necklace on, even like Dragon's Den, I then have to take the leap off because it stands out too much as a clash. Well, maybe we've got to send you our gold bands and some of our, you know, our dressier bands because we've created a pretty wide array now of materials. But that's also where we came up with whoop body, which allows you to put the sensor in different locations on your body. And so, you know, 24-7 led to these principles of the products either be cool or invisible. And that's the first principle.

Yeah. what is the biggest thing that most people in this building disagree with you about that you've preceded with and you will write about? Well, one of the more controversial decisions in the company's history was changing the business model because whenever you build a company, as you know, Stephen, you want to be careful how many things you try to innovate on. In many cases, it's worth borrowing from all the other companies who have been successful. But in the In the case of WOOP, we actually really needed to innovate around the business model. We were selling the hardware as a one-time, high-end fee, $500, and not that many people

were buying it, but the people who did buy it would wear it for a very long time. And so we asked ourselves, is there a business model here where you could pay way less up front, and if people fell in love with the product, actually make more money over the time. And so that's where the idea of WOOP as a membership came from. And there was a lot of conflict that would say around, what should that monthly rate? be? How frictionless should it be for people to sign up? And I got to a headspace if we should really move in the direction of as frictionless as possible and betting entirely on the product

and betting entirely on the brand and membership services and innovation to keep people on loop over time. So I would say that was a very controversial decision. And it's worth noting it was a bet the business decision because we were seven or eight years into building a company and we were changing our business model on its head, which said differently that we didn't know what our business model was seven years into building the company. And this big decisions was hard to like turn back on them

if you're wrong because you create an expectation. There's a theme I think about a lot which is a decision a one-way door or a two-way door, right? One-way door being, you make it, you can't really go back and change it. Two-way being, you know, you can iterate on it and circle back around. And often I think where it's a CEO's role

to get more involved is if you have a one-way door and that one-way door has pretty high stakes for your organization. What keeps you up on it? Well, it touches, I think, a little bit on the theme that you really, you know, hammered, which is around opportunity and potential.

I feel like I'm so grateful to be in the moment and time that I'm at, building the technology that I am, with the team that I have. have, you know, my life feels really grounded and good. I've got a great relationship with my life and my family. Like, I feel like I have a huge opportunity. You know what I mean? And I don't want to take that to man. I don't want to look back on this moment in five years and be like, wow, you really squandered that. And especially from the loop lens, like, I think we're on

the eve of this massive evolution in health, like a revolution for what continuous health can do for humans and I don't want to wake up one day and realize someone else did it or did it poorly and we were one of the ones who made it happen see um that's a fairly heavy weight to carry because that weight this a weight of an opportunity that you believe is right in front of you and the cost of not meeting that opportunity and your mind must be regret and you don't want to eat you know you don't want regret yeah i've lived life with very little regret and so And so I think regret avoidance is a good life strategy. How'd you carry that weight?

Well, I don't think of it necessarily as a weight. I think of it, I find it exhilarated. Like there is an action junkie inside of me that's like the stakes are high, so I'm going to rise to the occasion. You know what I mean? Like there's a certain, I think there's a certain enthusiasm that comes from something where the stakes are high. Do you stick to a looking at a window?

Oh, of course. I mean, you know, I think all of, I frame a lot of it as being an underdog. One, the notion of being a 33-year-old CEO running a multi-billion dollar company. That seems like an underdog. The idea that whoop is up against trillion-dollar companies like Apple and Google and others, the idea that brands like Amazon will copy us and knock us off and treat us poorly like through all those lens we feel like underdogs but that's also again a great belief system you know i think being underdog is the is the ultimate way to release to your point that

weight yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and to turn stay into my guess and keep yourself out job and stuff do you think of yourself as an underdog because you're now you're now at a stage where you're the celebrity. You're kind of the face of young entrepreneurship. So 100%. And in fact, you know, in the last, with success, the word complacency has increased in my team. Like that as a conversation.

So it's funny because let's just use the podcast as an example. So I've got this business third web, which is in San Francisco. We've raised a lot of money, about $31 million. And it's doing really, really well. It's in the web through space. I've got my marketing agency and my fund. But if we just see it on the podcast, we saw that were gaining 300, last month and the month before, 380,000 subscribers a month, puts us on track

that we're doing about a million subscribers on YouTube in 90 days. It's like really, there's not really a podcast that comes close to that on YouTube. And I try and play forward the psychological impact that has on a team when we were like scrappy and we were the underdogs and we were trying things and we thought that we were kind of counted out. And what happens when you're like the biggest in your country or the biggest in Europe? What happens to the behaviour? Do you continue to experiment?

Do you rest in your laurels? do you play defense too much and not offense. And that really has, like, consume my thoughts. So I did something about it, which was I appointed a head of experimentation in our team. So we now measure the amount of experiments we do, but we're driving hard to increase the rate of experimentation. Did a big presentation to my team about the Kaysen philosophy. That's from the Toyota to production system and 1% gains. And really tried to tell my people that the things, the thing.

thing that's going to make us number one in 10 years time in the game that we're playing is if we conduct more experiments in our competition at a faster and measured rate, like, that is the number one thing I'm going to measure over the next 10 years, but then also realizing this is a 10 year game. And if I look at someone like Rogan, the thing that's got him to be number one, outside of his talent, is 15 years of compounding returns. He managed to stay the course of 15 years. And I looked at all of the podcasts that used to be number one in our country. And the reason why they all fell was lack of focus, every single one. And I can tell you exactly the decision they made, either for money or away from the thing that was resonating

with their core audience, that caused them to fall. The thing we need to do is the hardest thing of all, which is to keep going. Because temptation is that is super high when you're doing badly and when you're doing well. It's different types of temptation. One of the temptation is to abandon it and one of the other temptation is to do too much stuff. So my team now, the big thing I care about is are we experimenting as fast as we used to when we were small and we are in a way that is like obsessive. Like I could tell you about some of the things we do on a podcast and you think it was just totally crazy. What's an example? Last couple of weeks. So I haven't, last, last week I glued it, we glued a magic track pad under the table

where I'm into all the guests. If I just touch the magic track pad just with my finger once, It saves exactly what me and the guest just said. It sends it it to my team. That sentence is then AB tested as a Facebook ad with five pounds behind it to see if it's resonant. That will then make up the description, the title, and thumbnails. So before the episode goes out, there's 90 AB tests. So if we did this with my podcast now, I would be just touching the chair with my finger. Every time you said something interesting, that would then be sent off to my team.

It would go straight into testing. And two weeks before the podcast comes out, we know. Then you have all the data. Yeah. We know the most emotionally resonant part. That doesn't seem, I mean. Temperature of the room. To me, the song.

The temperature, by the way, the temperature in your podcast is warm. I've noticed. Used to be. Oh, you're turning it down? Yeah, we moved floors because of temperature. So we moved to the floor below, which was completely air conditioned. And we could keep super cool. People don't fall asleep.

They say awake. CO2 in the room is us talking to you about. Huge impact on the conversation, and I never knew that. The music you play when someone walks in, so Israel at Asanya, if I play Mitzi Hustle, Doug Dubbler, he always opens up on that song phase. And there's multiple videos of him literally crying in the stands at fights because it's that song to play. It takes him right back. So you played that before. Yeah.

Smart. You go on and on. The color of the thumbnail on YouTube, there's a 0.2% variance in different colors. An exclamation mark gives us 0.3% click-throughs. the length of the title of the podcast, how many characters should it be for optimal performance, how that varies across platforms. So you want to get under 75 characters on the YouTube title

and on audio, it doesn't matter as much. The first line in the description on YouTube is hugely important because that appears in searches of but that's also indexed. So if this was my podcast now, if I wanted to make sure a lot of people reached it, I need to find a big YouTube audience, and I need to write that in the first line of the copy.

So if everything we talked about today, I might go for, say we talked about one of your athletes, like someone that usually would do like Michael Phelps. I would put their name as in the first line of the description of the episode, because then it's putting the episode into Michael Phelps and Tiger Woods algorithm. I mean, I could go on for hours, because we're doing about 40 to 50 experiments a month

that are all tracked and measured. It's fascinating because you're building this massive playbook on what's going to not just be successful probably for your podcast, but any podcast. I remember hearing Mr. Beast talk about YouTube and all these things as it relates to success on YouTube. And he said, just based on what I know now, I could go to any company and I could get them 10 million subscribers just by following this playbook that I've built. Yeah. And there's something really powerful about that, and kind of magical about that. I think a lot of companies are so caught up in their own way that they've maybe lost sight of the fact that there's a playbook. I think it's like a mental bias towards thinking, is this game I'm playing luck and is it based on talent or are they controllable levers here? And Mr. Beast is someone that believes there's believers of success can be controlled.

And I'm someone that believes that the leaders of success in the control. But also, maybe more importantly, that there's no such gain that is too small. So looking forward into an experiment, I might think that might yield a 1% gain. But then I can name an experiment where I change 10 seconds of the call to action on the podcast. You know, YouTube always say, like and subscribe a video. Well, you've heard it so many times that your brain just ignores it. Wild paper, wallpaper, filters it out. So you have to find a way to perk the brain's interest.

Change that 10 second call to action. it resulted in the 350% of mutual subscription increase, which is not a 1% game. Yeah. And so you treat every experiment as if it, you don't, you know, you're agnostic to the return it will make, but there's no such thing as too small. And it's interesting because the small stuff in life,

the things that are easy to do or also easy not to do. So it's like easy to brush your teeth, so it's also easy not to. It's easy to save $5, so it's also easy not to. So you can bet that your competitors are usually choosing the easy not to be route. And if your team chooses to be easy, easy to do, but they do it, he's untold gains there.

You're a deeply curious person and you've had enormous success interviewing people. Who are other interviewers that you've admired and you feel like you look at and you're like, the way they're doing that, that's clever? So it's anybody who I feel is being led by curiosity and it shows. Like, you can tell them in an interview whether someone is asking the questions they care about or whether they're asking questions that someone else handed them. Right. And then the other thing is listening, which is just this insanely simple thing to do.

But as an interviewer, you can ask way better questions if you listen. And people, when I'm interviewing them, go to places they've never gone to. If you give them more space to talk, they can, like, figure stuff out on the spot. And it's funny, I remember there's one particular person I interviewed. And he said something, and then I said to him, yeah, but why? And there's this like 15 second gap where I'm looking at him in the face, and he's looking right back at me, neither of us are saying anything. Imagine 15 seconds. It's such a long amount of time. I think about this all the time. Like, the longer you can

be silent for, it's a sign of, I think, real confidence for an interview. Yeah. So at the end of that 15 seconds, people actually told me they pulled out their phones because they thought they'd stop it. Because we just keep the paws in, and he just burst into tears. And what that taught me, which I've never been able to forget, is although his mouth wasn't doing anything, his brain was. And even in silence, the brain is doing a lot. And actually a silence is an indicator of deeper thought. So when we have moments of silence in my studio, it happens all the time. It's just me staring at the person in their face. It's actually a very powerful technique, too, in public speaking. If you think you're losing the crowd a little bit, if you want to put

emphasis on something a long pass yeah right it just all of a sudden it makes people look up it makes people what's going on that was my trick i read about that as well that was my trick when i spoke 50 weeks a year was i'd walk out on stage and i'd look at the audience and i'd be silent at 10 seconds and the very start as well and people go takes a lot of confidence to do that yeah and then i'd come in like the mr beast thing i'd come in with some kind of extreme line so my first line on stage, 50 weeks a year I spoke from the Ukraine to South Byte, everywhere, was that's exactly why you were expelled from school. You're incapable of sticking anything you don't believe in and you always think you'd know a better way. Don't call me and don't call the family

until you go back to university. And with that, my mum hung up the phone. Now, what I've done there is I've created a plot that the brain, because of all these biases, needs the answer to. What? And I've caught you off guard. Again, I've beat the wallpaper filter, and I've got your attention. Now, I'd take, I'd basically be selling my marketing agency, but that's how I would start. And by the end of it, you'd find out that me and my mom are great friends, so I'd close the story off. Yeah.

But I really believe in that the value of storytelling and not information as it relates to the brain. So, you didn't say anyone specifically out in terms of interviews. A rich role, like, he's great, because he's really curious. I love what, I have so much respect for what. Rogan does because this guy can just rip about ant holes for three hours like he is a great example of like curious 100% just pulling through and the difficulty he has which no one will see is the pressure to put certain people on his podcasts that might have huge followings or that might be whatever else and he said in an interview before he goes the only person he decides who comes on my show

if he misses me and that is it so if I want to speak to three hours my comedic friend that nobody knows about ant molehills that's what's going to happen right that's that's that temptation point I talked about, there's huge temptation to get this pop star with 70,000 followers, but it deviates from your principles. And I have that temptation now to have people on that. I'm not interested in talking to because of the follower number. And he's taught me to stay the course. Yeah. And it's the same for you, right? Like you're undergoing tremendous pressure from all sides to change the product and to be something else and to go and fill that market over there. And your ability

to stay the course is something which I noticed from you which is why I write about you in the book like is phenomenal. Let's talk about the book. Thank you for that. The diary of the CEO 33 laws for business and life.

I read it and I've read a lot of business books and so I'll give you a lot of credit for putting something out into the world that one is very digestible. Two is memorable and also three and probably most importantly is impactful. You know,

which I think I think most business books really lack impact. You know, you get through it and you feel like you haven't actually latched on to something that you're going to do. You take away a few stories.

But, uh, Anyway, in part, it's probably why I don't read business books much anymore. Yours is a really, I think, nice encapsulation of how to be a better person, you know, kind of first and foremost. And so I guess I'll just start by asking you, why now, why write this book? Throughout this interview, you can see that I get really passionate about certain topics. Yeah. Anything to do with, like, team culture, innovation, marketing, psychology.

marginal games, all of this stuff. And so two reasons why I wrote it for me. Going back to what I said about, the teacher gets the most from the lesson. And also, I think it's going to be super useful for a lot of people who are like, because they're like hard-thought lessons, right?

Who are slightly earlier in the process than me, or, you know, as is the case with the marketing chapters, who are thinking about launching something, whether it's a YouTube channel or a charity or a business, Those are principles which should be timeless and enduring. And also it's written, as you say, for a generation I feel like reading this. I'm one of them.

Totally. And I think that comes through in reading it. You do a good job having quotes that are larger and smaller, you know, reminding people what the law is a couple times. So there's a certain level of repetitiveness that's refreshing. It's, no, I really enjoyed it. And to be honest, I read a lot of books that I don't enjoy. I know we've finished, so a compliment to you.

One thing I appreciated was the fact that you have a stage fright, or you had stage fright as a kid. And we share that actually, and people, when I tell people that they don't actually believe it, had you overcome that? Repetitions, basically, that's it. And stage fright is a belief, it's a belief you have. And the only way that I, as I go through the process and the, about trying to figure out where beliefs come from and how to change them, I realize that

we don't get to choose our beliefs, which is a really kind of controversial idea because people find it disempowering, the idea that you don't choose your beliefs. But if I said to you now, is there any belief that you could un-chose to have? Now, I'm not talking about faith and hope. I'm saying a belief you currently have that you could right now un-chose that to believe. I've asked a lot of people this and no one can tell them. No one can give me an example of a belief they currently have that right now, if they chose to, they could not have. A belief. And my thesis, and as I go through on the book, is that our beliefs are based on evidence we have. Doesn't mean the evidence is correct. It's just evidence that we've subjectively interpreted

and accepted as true. So that person in the playground, you said you were ugly at seven years old, created some evidence which you accepted about yourself, and that's now a limiting belief. The way then that you could create a new belief, or losing an old one, is to counteract it with new evidence. The source of that. new evidence really matters. Because the type of new evidence matters, if it's a belief you want to accept, you're more likely to move. In the studies I highlight, if I said to you, how attractive you think you are at 10, and you said to me, let's say, nine, and then I said, I've just done a poll of the public and they reckon you're 10. People move up to 10. They go,

yeah, right on the time. But if I went the other way and said the public said you're an 8, people are resistant to move down. Same in politics. If we did a poll now and you're a Hillary Clinton supporter, and then I say, We've just done a poll and turns out Donald Trump is going to win, people don't move. The Donald Trump people move, but the Hillary Clinton people don't move their opinions. But also, if we have 95% of the same existing beliefs, you're much more likely to accept anything that I say to you. But ultimately, to remove the most stubborn beliefs we have in our life, you have to go and put yourself in a situation or you're exposed to new first-party evidence that counteracts the existing evidence you have.

And it's not just looking in a mirror and telling yourself you're beautiful. You have to go out there into the world and put yourself. on the firing line, which meant for me, in public speaking, put myself on stages over and over and over again. There's a lot of beautiful things like that in the book. The self is the only thing to have direct control over. To master it is to master your entire world. Yeah, I think that's, it goes back to what we're saying about controllables. I can't control you, him, I can't control anybody else, but the center point of my influence in my life is the allocation of my time and the decisions that I make.

Well, knowing the story you told about every day having to put something out at 8 p.m. and having to come up with a quote and having to find the right words for it, a lot of that comes through in your laws because you have these punchy laws that are memorable and counterintuitive, so you kind of grab onto it. Those include absurdity cells, you must piss people off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You must never disagree, which is a fun on. The absurdity laws when I wanted to speak to you about, because it was something that once I'd realized, I couldn't unrealize, comes from my girlfriend going to a gym and then coming home and saying, babe, I've just been to this gym called Birdspace and Canary Wharf.

It's incredible. So big. They even have a 100-foot climbing walk. And then, it's amazing, I joined the gym, I was going there for two years. And then when I spoke to my friend about it, I said to him, it's an amazing gym and carry off it's massive, but she even had a 100-foot climbing walk in the entrance. I've never seen anybody use the climbing wall. I've never, I've been there for two years, I've never seen anybody go near it. I actually don't even think they use it. But the fact that I'm using the most absurd thing about the experience to tell the story of the values,

but also the entire experience, I think is something that has found is we can be intentional about in the design of our products. The most absurd, inefficient, costly thing that you do says the most about everything you do. By my girlfriend telling me they had a hundred foot climbing wall in the entrance, she's actually saying, imagine how many running machines they must have. And to a generation Z who care about social media

and building their brand off that, it also says, damn, that's going to be great for my Instagram stories. Right. It's a great picture to take. And I case study these brands like Brewdog, who are now a billion-dollar underdog brand, who took on the whole drink industry. And the founder does crazy things.

He put a beer fridge in all of their showers in their new hotel chain. Nobody's talking on Google about the mattresses and the pillows. They're not talking about the useful practical things. Every article is about the beer fridge in the shower. No one's drinking beer in a shower. We all know that. But it's driving the brand. Tesla, the Easter eggs in the car that you can make the ludicrous mode and, you know, absurd mode,

and you can make the back seats. Whoopee cushions. No one's talking about like the, well, people talk about some of the fundamentals, But really the thing that's seeing the most about the brand is the most absurd thing about the brand, regardless of anyone who uses it. And the story of my company, going back seven years, was the blue slide in the office. We were young kids. We took a 300K investment when the company started taking off. Before we got desks, I spent 13,000 pounds on a big blue slide.

And I built a gaming room with a big blue slide that came into a ball pool. Ridiculous, stupid decision. I was an idiot. Thinking forward now, I probably wouldn't have made that if I was experienced. I wasn't. It became the single biggest driver of our PR was the big blue slide. Every TV company, the BBC, Channel 5, The Gadget Show, Channel 4, BuzzFeed, Vice documentary, all centred on this big blue slide because it said, young, innovative, disruptive, they think different.

The best $13,000. No marketing campaign we could have done could have spoke more clearly about who we were. So I think that with businesses. I think how can you build absurdity into the office, the experience? And it's an amazing framing for any way to be thinking about with their own business today. Never compromise on your health is something that comes up. Your health is your first foundation. Talk a little bit about health and how you prioritize.

Yeah, I struggled for many years to care about health or to take it seriously or to maintain any level of discipline in it. And in fact, there's two laws in the book that kind of come together to answer this. The first is the discipline equation, which I think is law number 27 or something, where I'm writing about, I started by writing about time management techniques, and then to try and create a sense in the reader's mind about why time is important, I started getting the stats on how long we will have left to live. If you're 33 now, you have about 17 or 18,000 days left if you meet the US life expectancy. So you've got 17 or 18,000 days left to do everything. Which doesn't sound like that, man. It doesn't sound like that long, does it? Yeah.

And then from there, I start to go to time management techniques, and I read that there's thousands of them. So why is there thousands of time management techniques? Why is there thousands of fad diets? Because none of them work without this thing called discipline. So instead of writing about time management techniques, the chapter ends about we trying to figure out the equation of discipline in my life. Why have I become really focused in discipline with a gym, but other areas of my life, I'm not? And what I found was that the discipline equation, as I see it, is when your Y is, so it's Discipline equals the strength of your Y plus the psychological enjoyment you get from the

pursuit of the goal minus the cost of the pursuit of the goal. So if you want to be disciplined, mess with that equation. Make sure you do everything you can to make the Y strong and the psychological enjoyment you get from the pursuit and to limit the friction of the pursuit. So in case of working out and going to the gym every day, in the pandemic, I was looking at my screen trapped in lockdown and I saw for the first time in my life that health is, that not just the tectonic plate that sits under my life, it sits under the entirety of society and that our existing health was correlated to our health outcomes. It was like traumatic for me.

And so in that equation, through the frame of that equation, suddenly my why goes up to here. And for the last three and a half years since March 2021 in the pandemic, my discipline has been six, seven days a week I'm in the gym, obsessed with my health, obsessed with everything, my diet, my sleep is maybe the biggest thing in my life at the moment. You've been on Woof for quite some time now. Yeah, it was... I think it was... I'd say it was four years ago

I got introduced to the brand by my friend Ashley, who just like came into our fitness group like he had been, I don't know, like he was hypnotised or he was like a disciple of the brand and he was just, like he had an affiliate code or something. He didn't actually have an affiliate code.

The way he was talking, you'd think he was an employee. It was, oh my God, it's amazing. Showing us screenshots. And it didn't really, didn't really land with me at the time. but as I've come to realize the importance of health generally and that it is actually the tectonic plate

that my girlfriend, my dog, my family, my business sits on top of and if that tectonic plate shakes or falls off, I lose everything, then it's so clear from a logical mindset that that is my first foundation. And it's funny because people will objectively know that. They'll say, of course, yeah, I get it. That's true because you can't argue with it. But then when you look at their calendar, they haven't, their time isn't allocated against that as a priority.

And I think you can see someone's priorities by not what, I think you can see someone's priorities not in by what they say, but in what they do. And our calendars are a better, a better ref reflection of what our true priorities are. So I said to myself, okay, if I do believe sleep's important, if I think my health is the first foundation, then how come it's taking up 20 minutes of my calendar a day? It should be taking up at least two or three hours a day. And it should be the first thing that I think about when I wake up in the first thing. morning. And so my calendar now is nothing before 11 o'clock because my sleep needs to be number

one. And then my day starts from 11. So in the morning, like this morning before I came here, me and my camera guy over there, Will, we're in the gym for two hours. That was priority number one before anything. I wake up, I look at my sleep. I then use my sleep performance on week to determine my day. So there's been times where I look and I go, that wasn't great. So I'll go back to bed because I'm more likely to fall straight into REM sleep at that point. Or I'll go, I'm going to cancel some stuff today. Or I'll go my workout. I'm going to just take it a bit slower today because I haven't recovered properly. Yeah. So it's now actually like, it's now helping me direct my life in a way that's so important to me. And it genuinely like,

whatever, I'm in your podcast, whatever you're inside front of me. No, this is what I'm, my girlfriend has never ever stuck with any technology. She's very spiritual. She doesn't want any, she doesn't like screams and anything. She is the same. Wupa is the first thing. Weep is the first in her life, what that has stuck and that is integral to her. It's like, and we wake up, we go to the kitchen counter in the morning and I say, show me you, I want to know how it's his feeling. That's the first pick-off point of the day. Well, because there's a boyfriend as well, I want to know.

Yeah, right. What are you at? Yeah. I want to know what I should talk to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and vice versa. Because I've seen maybe the most important thing as a CEO, I've seen this unbelievable terrifying correlation between my sleep performance and my emotional performance, how patient am I, how good am I in the podcast? And it's so huge that it changed my

life. Like the variance is so huge between getting one hour restorative sleep and getting six the other day. Jesus Christ, I was on top of the world. Wow, six. What did you do to get six? I think I wore the eye mask. The blue like, okay, I mask. The eye mask. But also I think the day before I hadn't slept that well. Okay. So I think my body was just more tired. Yeah. So, the sleep mask. Yeah. Yeah. The dream was cold?

That makes it be good. My girlfriend wasn't in the bed. That can be a tough one because there's this, there's this share your bed journal question. And fortunately, I can say that sharing my bed has increased my sleep performance. But it's not, you know, it varies a lot by person. That's one that's highly personal. Yeah. it's not you know certain generally things like dark room cold room going to bed consistently

waking up and going to bed at the same times those things tend to be better sleep for everyone but then there's these interesting things that are highly personal one of which is did you sleep alone in your sleep with your apartment I was so if I'm waking up early my girlfriend will tend to me she's which gives you go sleep the horse which means I'm going to go sleep in the other room tonight yeah and she always takes it I think she doesn't always take it well It's a sensitive thing Do you ever use the Whopal One to vibrate to wake up?

This is a new thing in mine in her life where I showed her this feature last week because she I don't think she realized it existed but for me as someone that is my priority is to get to 100% recovery or as close as I can versus getting up for anything

because I'm not waking up before 11 anyway. It's been a game changer. It actually really, vibrated as I walked in here today. So I just walked in through this because I got up before it. Oh, or maybe it's still on the other time zone. Maybe. Ah, that would make sense.

Yeah. Yeah. No, but that's been a huge, huge one for me. Someone that wants to make sleep the number one and then everything to follow sleep. And this is also why the sleep mask is so important because the light would interfere with that. Oh, the blue light blacking glasses. Or just the sleep mask? The sleep mask.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, so that makes your room much darker. Yeah. if the light comes up at 7 or 8, then I can keep going for 100% sleep. That's right. Regardless of how great rules. Well, look, we're very grateful to have you on Wroop and, you know, representing the brand. It's been an amazing partnership.

Thank you. And I realize that it's a partnership, but I also, I don't think you can hear this too much, but the impact that's how in my life as a CEO, as a voice. friend and as a human that just wants to feel good is huge so it's so I really want to say thank you for creating a product that like genuinely has made my life better and there's not many things I look the same every day I have the same shoes the same trousers the same top and I have this on and I only stick to things that I really really like moving the needle for me and this is one of the things that has moved the needle for me and it's funny because I said to my team like I did

15 interviews last week on TV and on radio you guys don't pay me to talk about on TV radio and stuff. And in 15 of those interviews, all 15, it's a significant part of the conversation. It's great. And that is, I think, a testament to the fact that it's really moving more for me. And I'm now, like, like my friend Ashley was three years ago, to me, I'm now the evangelist in my circle. So you can't pay something to do that. There's no partnership that can create that sort of authentic relationship with the brand. So thank you. Well, thank you. I'm incredibly grateful to have you on Loop and thanks for doing this podcast. I think I have to close by asking you, because this is what you do on your podcast.

So for folks who are unaware, there's a diary that comes out and you as the guest, you ask a question that a future guest then has to answer. So what is the question that you would ask if you were presented with that diary? I would write into the diary, in the context of the diary, you would then have to ask me, the next guest, the question.

So I'd write into the diary, how do you think I can improve? which means that you would have to ask the next guest how he thinks or she thinks you can improve. All right. So there we go. That's maybe I'm going to have to ask him. But it's a really, it's a very nice theme that you have with your podcast.

Thank you. Connects them all which I like. All right. Thanks, bro. Thank you. Big thanks to Stephen for coming on the podcast discussing performance and entrepreneurship. We're proud to have Stephen as an ambassador to Whoop. If you enjoy this episode of The Whoop podcast, please subscribe.

subscribe, leave a rating, or review. You can check us out on social at WOOP at Will Amit. If you have a question you want to see answered on the podcast, email us, podcast at WOOP.com. Call us 508-443-4952. If you're thinking about joining WOOP, check out WOOP.com.

You can actually sign up for free for 30 days. New members can use the code Will, W-I-L, to get a $60 credit on W-WP accessories. That's a wrap, folks. Thank you all for listening. We'll catch you next week on the WOOP podcast. stay healthy and stay in the green.