WHOOP Podcast - Tennis star Shelby Rogers on the surprising power of stress and the winning mindset

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

Professional tennis player Shelby Rogers joins the WHOOP Podcast for an in-depth discussion on cultivating a winning mindset, persevering through injury and setbacks, and the inevitability of stress and how we can use it to our advantage. She talks about getting started in tennis at a young age (3:06), the importance of trusting your gut (6:02), overcoming injury (7:55), the role gratitude plays in success (11:18), her remarkable ability to stay out of the red (15:38), focusing on the right things (19:11), why stress should be viewed as a positive (21:12), how she puts herself in a winning mindset (24:25), using nerves to your advantage (33:36), and what she's learned from other players in her sport (39:21). Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

Hello, folks. Welcome back to the WOOP podcast, where we sit down with top performing athletes, scientists, experts, and more to learn what the best in the world are doing to perform at their peak and what you can do to unlock your own best performance. I'm your host Will Ahmed, founder and CEO of Woop, where we are on a mission to unlock human performance. You may have noticed things sound a little different around here. This week, we are rolling out new music and a new look as continue investing in the podcast. I hope you enjoy it. All right, our guest this week is professional tennis player Shelby Rogers and part of the Women's Tennis Association. If you missed our announcement last week, WOOP was just announced as the official fitness wearable of the WTA.

That's a major development for players and fans alike. WTA players will now be able to wear whoop in competition. And that means we'll be bringing you WOOP live during broadcast of these matches. That's right. So the live heart rate they've been seeing within golf, CrossFit, NASCAR, other sports properties. We're now going to be doing it in women's tennis. Shelby's been on whoop longer than just about anyone. She's been wearing whoop since 2016 to help her perform at an elite level, especially while traveling around the globe. We talk about her career and how she's been able to upset some of the top players on the planet, including Serena Williams and Nash Barty. We also discuss the mindset needed to be successful. She has a

great acronym, when, what's important now, so we talk a lot about being present, how stress is inevitable and why it's good for us, and what she's learned about persevering through injury and adversity. Quick reminder, you can get 15% off a WOOP membership by using the code will, that's WI-L, 15% off, hardware, software analytics, the new WOOP 4.0, that's all included in the WOOP membership. Check it out at WOOP.com. Okay, without further ado, here is is Shelby. Shelby, welcome to the Whoop Podcast. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me. I've been listening to the episodes, and I'm very excited to be on one now. Oh, good. Well, I have to say one of the coolest things about my job in this company is getting photos sent to me of very cool people like yourself wearing whoop.

And when you beat Ash Barty in the U.S. Open, I was flooded with photos of you wearing a whoop strap. So it's very cool to have you on Woop, and it's very cool to be sitting down with you. It's funny because during that match, we actually weren't approved to wear it on court yet. And so as soon as the match was over, I made sure to go get it and put it on because I wanted to see where my heart rate was and what was going on because I was so excited. Yeah, but now we can wear it during matches, so we don't have to worry about that anymore. That's right.

So we'll get back to that match, but I wanted to sort of start by just talking about your relationship with tennis and you growing up as a young girl, you know, did you always aspire to be this professional tennis player that you are today? I actually did. I started tennis and I was about four years old. My older sister actually played, so I kind of followed her into the sport, followed her to all her tennis lessons and, you know, would stand outside and watch her play and just couldn't wait to get on court myself. And then I think played my first tournament when I was about seven years old. And I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, had some great coaches there. and from a very young age, I would say that I wanted to be a professional tennis player. And, you know, at the time, it's like your coaches and your parents are like, oh, yeah, that's great.

You know, keep working hard. But then as the years went on, it sort of became within reach, I guess, and became a reality. So it's pretty cool. What were some moments along the way when you felt like, okay, this dream is real? I mean, I had a little bit different path growing up through junior tennis than maybe most. I don't know how much you guys listening know about, you know, professional tennis or junior tennis at that. But I didn't play a ton of national tournaments and things like that growing up. And so when, you know, I got some wild cards and things like this into some bigger tournaments

and was able to beat some pretty good players. And then I think one defining moment, at least for me, was when I actually chose to forego playing in college to really pursue my dreams on the professional tour. And I had done pretty well at a couple events right around the time I was taking college visits to. And I remember calling my mom being like, hey, I'm going to take the money. I'm going to decide to turn pro. And I think everybody was a little nervous at that time. For sure.

In my heart that it was the right decision for me. And so let's focus on that moment. You're 17 or 18 years old? Yes, yes. And you're saying, I'm not going to school. I'm going to be a professional tennis player. Yeah, I said full scholarship. I'm not taking it. Free education. Not going to take it. I'm going to, yeah, I'm going to turn pro.

And so you can imagine how my mom probably felt at the time. And I did make her promise that I would pursue my education at some point and get my degree. And I actually just graduated this May. Wow, look at that. Congratulations. Well, it's worked out for you twice over. I remember a conversation I had with my parents, like fall of my senior year at Harvard saying that I wasn't going to go into a traditional job path and I was going to start this company. And it's one of those decisions where I felt like I had wrestled with it for a long time. And then the moment that I made the decision, I had very high conviction about it. What was that like for you? Were you kind of wrestling with it or did you just know you were always going to do it? I don't think I always knew I was

going to do it. But at that moment, like you said, I was very confident in my decision. And I just knew within myself that I had to give myself a chance. I would have been almost letting myself down had I chosen anything else. I mean, I'm not saying it's the right path for everyone. Everybody has to make, you know, that choice for themselves. But for me, at that moment, I knew 100% it was the right thing for me. I didn't know for sure that I would be successful, but I knew that I had to at least try. And I'm very happy I did. But I think it's an important thing to, you know, bet on yourself sometimes, listen to your guide and listen to what you're really feeling and what you want to do. And in making that decision, did you feel, you know, somewhat invigorated as you

started to play more and more tennis? Or did, was there sort of this feeling, too, of like six months in or 12 months in or 18 months in like, oh gosh, what have I done? You know, I can imagine after you have a tough loss or something, maybe doubt starts to creep in. Was there any of that? Absolutely. I mean, there's always doubt. But I think making that decision for myself also allowed me to take more ownership of my career and play in a way that was for me and not trying to please anyone else. Yeah, I just owned my decision and was like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I need to go all in right now. And I think it helped me to really set my sights on what I was trying to do instead of being one foot in, one foot out. Now I was all in. I had no choice but to, you know,

give everything I had. Yeah, that level of commitment to can be clarifying and give you an extra boost, I would imagine. So in that process, you know, you don't strike me as someone who's ever, you know, felt burned out or kind of a letdown. Is that fair? Or have you gone through that? I'm glad I'd bluff it well. Thank you. Yeah. I think, no, gosh, I think every tennis player, every athlete, for that matter, goes through some sort of peaks and valleys, right? Some sort of let down some sort of burnout or a moment where you're thinking, gosh, is this really what I'm supposed to be doing? Should I keep playing? And I think for me, that's happened a couple times throughout my career, a couple times surrounding injury. One of them, I had knee surgery

in 2018 and six months after that operation, I really didn't think I was going to play again. It was a pretty dark moment for me. And being able to work through that, you know, you come out of that even stronger and that just gives you sort of a renewed motivation. But another time for me was just this year, I mean, I've already come back from injury, but we still had to deal with all the COVID protocols and just, you know, the sport looks very different. And I sort of had to reevaluate like what was bringing me joy. What did that look like? And I can name, you know, three right off the bat of times where I've had letdowns or burnout or reevaluations of my career where I'm like, I need to figure out why I love the sport and why I'm doing this. And I think

getting back to that purpose and story that you tell yourself is the most important thing. Yeah, that's a fascinating concept. Talk a little bit about that, you know, this process that you've gone through at those various stages of falling back in love with the game. I think it's such an important concept for high performing people. And really everyone is just like, you know, how do you appreciate the thing that you're great at or the thing that you've dedicated your career to? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a loaded question, right? And it's something I think for me is really a weekly decision that you have to make. It's, again, going back to why am I doing this and what's my purpose here?

For me, that's, you know, I love to play the sport. I started playing the sport because, I mean, for one, I just love the game. But two, once I started to have some success, seeing other people get excited about watching me or, you know, inspiring other people, seeing the little kids that want to grow up and play tennis. And when we went into sort of this bubble life during COVID, that changed. a lot. We didn't have fans in the crowd. We, you know, we're on empty stadiums at 10 p.m., 11 p.m., and we're traveling around. We don't get to interact with fans or do anything. We don't get to have

kids clinics or, you know, any sort of the events that sometimes we have during tournaments and all that interaction is taken away. So then it's like, okay, this is a very different sport than I fell in love with and what do I do now? So I think that was a really big time for me to sort of look at myself and be like, where am I finding joy and, you know, what's going to get me through this time? Because I knew it wasn't going to last forever, but it was very tough. Yeah, I love the description of the fans as well. I was, I spent a fair amount of time around the world of golf during COVID, and I was in and out of a lot of these different golf tournaments because whoop was supporting the PGA and LPGA tours. And it was interesting sitting with the players and

talking to them about this sort of strange moment in time that we were in, where, where, There was no fans on the golf course and they were out there playing in silence. And overwhelmingly, you know, the players spoke to really missing, I think, the fans. And in a way, I think, you know, sort of underappreciating the fact that they always had fans. And so I imagine that's maybe one bright spot to take from this whole experience is it's, it does remind you like how cool it is that you literally have fans that are cheering for you. Oh, absolutely. And it makes you that much more grateful for, you know, what we're able to do within the world of athletics. And I think that's super important for me, not just within tennis, but in life is just, you know, being grateful for things and not losing that perspective.

Because for me, you know, I've had with the injuries and things like that, you just gained so much perspective. But why does it take that massive negative event to gain that, right? So that's the challenge of keeping that perspective. Are there specific habits or routines that you follow to, you know, tap into that and, and, you know, sort of hone that aspect of your mental well-being? I mean, mindfulness has become a huge part of my routines, a gratitude journal, you know, writing things down, pens of paper is very powerful. And journaling is huge for me. So I try to keep up with that as much as I can. but I think WOOP has also been a great tool just to add to those things because it's a tool that helps you be aware of what you're doing.

And sometimes it just takes just that, being aware of one action to be able to change it or improve it or keep doing it, you know, and just seeing how it affects your life, I think, has been super helpful for me. But, I mean, it just goes hand in hand with the mindfulness and everyone's goal of trying to be present because that's when we can perform our best. Yeah, athletes, I think more so than almost any other profession really appreciate the importance. of being present because that's when you know you're going to play the best right oh absolutely and there's constantly thoughts coming in and out you know doubts and questions and thinking about that shot you just missed or the bad line call you got or oh i lost her last week or i've lost her five times this year you know there's always obstacles in your way whether it's in your mind or it's electronics or it's you know other people wanting your time it's media whatever it is you've got to figure out what

works best for you to be able to control those thoughts and keep yourself in the moment. Now, you spoke recently about the challenges of having a public persona and, you know, having people, you know, call you names and and say things to you over social media and otherwise. What's that been like for you and how do you manage it? Yeah, I mean, I think it is a challenging part of what we do. And I'm not sitting here telling you, you know, I understand what other high-performing athletes are going through because there's many others that deal with it on a higher scale than I do, right? I've never, you know, been number one in the world or one grand slams yet. But, I mean, even at my level, we deal with the

social media abuse and we deal with all of that. But I also understand that what we're doing, you know, the territory we're in comes with a price. And like, the media is there for a reason. And they help us so much. Like for me, when I did an interview, when I go to, you know, speak to the media, it's almost a reward because it means we're doing something well. It means people want to talk to us. It means, you know what I mean? People want to see what you're doing and get a piece of your mind and understand why or where you're at.

So I think I can understand those sides where, like, you know, some girls that are top five or, you know, one in the world, whatever, they get media and they get overwhelmed with that because they're doing it every single day all day. But for me, it's almost a reward. So I have to be grateful for that opportunity to speak to people. And, you know, like I said, have that platform. And honestly, the positive feedback is so much stronger than the negative feedback. And you just have to weed that stuff out and kind of ignore it as best you can.

That's really thoughtful, especially the bit about, you know, focusing on the highlights versus the low lights. How long you've been on whoop now? So I started using it, gosh, back in 2016. Wow. So you're, you're OG. I am. That's pretty good. and so you've been on a few iterations of the hardware which is good and for for you like what are some of the elements that you've gravitated to i'll admit that i was on probably the 2.0 for like a very extended amount of time maybe a little too long but i've definitely learned how the the tools from whoop are able to assist me obviously it's easier now because we can use it during competition before it was more of a tool i used during off season or

training blocks, things like this, because when I was traveling, sometimes it wasn't very accurate because I couldn't get all the data from my matches and things like this. So now it's really exciting coming into this new year to use a 4.0 and be able to just have consistent data. So it's only going to get better. But I think up until this point, it's been really interesting just to see how my recovery fluctuates with different things I'm doing. So I think the biggest thing for me, I started taking a new probiotic called LiveCap. And since I started taking in April, I haven't had any red recoveries. I think I've had one.

And that was like some sort of, you know, celebration, like lack of sleep, whatever. So the probiotic, is that something you would measure in the Whoop Journal? Yeah. I mean, I think I put it in as like some sort of supplement or vitamin or something. But I just know, you know, when I take it and when I started and I kind of looked at the colors and it was all green and yellow since April, which is unbelievable. I mean, I didn't think that was possible, right? That is pretty amazing, especially for someone who trains as hard as you.

Yeah, I'm pretty proud of that, actually. Yeah, I pat myself on the back for that one. So you must also have a very consistent sleep routine. People who never get in the red often are very good and very dialed in on their sleep behavior. What are some of your habits or tips on that front? I do go to sleep very early. Okay, goes to bed early. That's good.

Yes, I'm much more of a morning person than a night owl. So I'm happy going to sleep 9, 9, 30, 10, every single night, waking up early. It gets a little bit tougher, though, when we're traveling and on tour with the jet lag and the time changes and different times every two weeks, you know. But I really try to do a good job of going to sleep at the same time every night, if I can. Obviously, night matches and things like that I struggle with as well. But then I try, you know, sometimes I'll take a melatonin to help me get to sleep if I can't, like, calm down. you know, with the jet lag or the night matches, whatever it is. But I think I just really prioritize sleep because I know how important it is for recovery as

well as someone, I mean, I'm 29 now, so I'm sort of the later stages of my career and focusing on recovery has become a priority. Are there certain things that you've found you need to do after you've had a late match? So, you know, you speak to sleep consistency. Everyone listening to this probably knows that sleep consistency is going to bed and waking up at a very similar time, which has this natural boost for your circadian rhythm. Shelby, of course, knows all about this. And if you break that cycle after being someone who's really good at it,

it can throw your body off a little bit or it can make it harder to fall asleep. And then your challenge is amplified by the fact that if you're staying up late because of a night match, you've got the adrenaline of screaming fans, big shots, maybe even a little caffeine or supplementation that you might be taking. during the match. So what are your tips on nights like that? If anyone has some tips for me, I'm open to suggestions too, because it's still sometimes a struggle for me, especially if you have a big win or something late at night. But one thing for me, honestly, is like turning my phone off, getting that out of the question completely. Reading a physical book, like not on a screen

is sometimes helpful for me. Melatonin is a good aid sometimes for me. I'm not suggesting that, but it works for me. And, you know, sometimes journaling, you're just trying to get all the thoughts out, somehow just trying to channel this energy into something else, whether that's a little, like, stretching or if you have to be a little, you know,

like an active recovery type of thing in your hotel room. Some nights are definitely tough, but I try to do those things. It helps sometimes, but it's definitely very difficult. I just, I keep going, so I've been reading this book called The Happiness Advantage,

and there was a quote from it that said, like, what we spend our time, and mental energy focusing on can become our reality. So if you're, you know, focusing on, like, all the comments on your Instagram and everybody praising you and, you know, getting really excited or calling your friends and celebrating or are you focusing on, okay, I know I have another match tomorrow, you know, I need to drink some camomile tea or whatever it is, you know, then you can really make things calm down for yourself.

Such a good point, isn't it, the things you focus on becoming your reality? I mean, I see this a lot with entrepreneurs because entrepreneurs, have a curse and that we're mostly focused on the challenges that are facing our business. And so our reality is being surrounded by challenges. And yet often we're also creating really interesting things and products and companies. So it's learning to stay appreciative throughout that journey and grateful. And I think to your point, redirecting some of that focus on more calming aspects of life. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that comparison because I think there are a lot of similarities between CEOs and athletes, right?

And it's cool to see all the studies, even that WOOP has done and just read different articles about how others are coping or dealing with this stress and stimulation, if you will, you know, every day and being able to still be consistent with their routines. You know, on that point, there's a, there's a narrative that seems to be drifting into the popular culture, which is more or less the recommendation of take on less stress. You know, I think in some ways that introduces a fragility to society, or it sort of treats everyone like they need to be coddled. I'm curious how you think about this. You're a professional athlete. In order to get really fit, you obviously had to put stress on your body. In order to try to win a grand slam, you have to put stress on your body. So do you think the need is to recommend that people bring less stress to their body, or is the need to teach people how they can better cope with stress?

I think stress is inevitable and I think stress is good it can be really good I think it's necessary you a diamond needs stress right it needs pressure to form I just think the ability to cope and the ability to

like you said you know deal with those things is crucial because stress isn't going away everybody's going to deal with it you have to put stress on your bones to make them stronger in your muscles so it's a necessary thing in life and everyone's going to be different

but it's just figuring out how to not let that derail you and, right, and get you off track too much. So I guess another stance I would take is that stress is also our choice sometimes. We choose our profession and we want to excel and we want to put ourselves in challenging situations to be successful and, you know, achieve our dreams. And that comes with stress. So we're not getting away from it. It's important to figure out how you're going to deal with it. Absolutely. Well, I like that a lot. Let's focus for a second on, you know, some of these big moments you've had in your career. You've, you know, beat the best women in the world, the best athletes in the world. Serena Williams, you've taken down. You've beaten

Ash Barty more recently in the U.S. Open. She was the number one in the world. What do you take into a match like that? And is it any different than every other match you prepare for? You try not to make it any different, right? You try to treat all the matches the same. And if you're something on the court, thinking that there's no chance you can win. You know. you might as well not even go out there. And so I try every time I step on the court to, yeah, give my best game, give my all and try to beat them. But I think, you know, having done it now, it gives you that much more confidence in yourself

to do it again. If you put these people on too much of a pedestal, it's going to be very tough for you, you know, to go out there and overcome it. I will say the match against Ash Barty was a little bit different because she'd beaten me five times before. So that adds some thoughts into your mind. of, you know, is this really ever going to happen? But again, you just got to keep believing. And I think athletes are a little crazy like that sometimes where even when the odds are stacked

against them, they believe in themselves and bet on themselves when maybe no one else does. You strike me as someone who's always had a strong inner conviction. But are there any things that you've ever done to, like, dial up that belief system? You know, if you felt like it was a little low, could be in a moment during the match. It could be in a moment before the match. It could be just in general when you're practicing or being mindful, but is there any, you know, are there any techniques that you've had for building up self-belief? Gosh, that's also a constant pursuit, I think. And for me, a lot of my career has been also relying on others around me. Sure. I know self-belief eventually has to come from within, but it's important to have a good

you know, group around you that can build you up and encourage you and push you to be better and push you to do things maybe you're even afraid of. And sometimes we just need a little help in those areas. And then it can come from within, you know, once you find out, okay, this isn't the scary as I thought or whatever it is. I think for me, an important thing, I don't know, I guess sometimes on court, something I repeat to myself is when, W-I-N, so what's important now? And that just helps me think about, you know, what my goals are, what I'm trying to do instead of maybe creating all these scenarios in your mind that create these massive mountains in front of you that just seem impossible to overcome right so just trying to i mean it's cliche but be present and take it one point

at a time on the court i think it's helped me a lot i love that what's important now when yeah and it again grounds you back to being present which i think unlocks the best performance that's so cool has that something you've always done or something more recently fairly yeah fairly more recent i think i've tried it in different ways before, but this one, for whatever reason, is resonating the last year or so. I think being honest with myself about my recovery, like if I see, you know, I wake up in the red or the yellow or something, not to just freak out and like, oh, this day is not going to be good, you know, just keeping that in perspective too, because, I mean, I've had some of my best performances on a red or yellow day. And so I think it's important data, but to not be like

too emotionally attached to that, you know? Yeah, to use it as a, as a tool, not a, not a, a crutch or an ultimatum right absolutely and it sounds like you'll always look at your recovery the day of a match i do i kind of questioned it sometimes but i you know for now i just like to keep it consistent every day i'm going to do the same thing and i've gotten better at like i said not being attached too much to those numbers or the colors um and knowing that i can still you know bring my best that day no matter what but uh just getting as much data as possible now would you tweak your routine at all you know i've interviewed people on this podcast who say like you know when they have a red recovery maybe they'll try to show up a little earlier to the match or the tournament

or uh the game or they'll focus more on mindfulness before the performance or you know if they wake up in in the green maybe they'll have a slightly longer warm up like anything like that i mean if i'm waking up in the red which i haven't done very often thank goodness sounds like that doesn't happen. I know. I've been very excited about that. But yeah, I mean, maybe I'll spend a little more time on warm up, but, you know, I'll see my numbers, but then more importantly to me is just listening to my body. So is this actually correlating with the numbers or, you know, do I feel like sore? Do I feel more tired here? Is my brain a little foggy? Just kind of responding to that and just being really in tune with what my body's telling me to as well as the numbers. So I think

it varies, but I'll definitely maybe listen a little bit harder if it's in the yellow or the red. And it sounds like you're someone who's always had a healthy relationship with data. Is that something that you just built towards over time? Or did you find you were kind of always into statistics and stuff of your own career? I think it's something I've grown to like over time when, even within tennis and my matches, when stats first started becoming, you know, more popular or I started using them during my career. It was a little overwhelming. Even with the whoop when I first started using it, it can be a little overwhelming. And you have to just sort of figure out, you know, what's going to help you the most and what numbers you actually

need. If I'm on court and I'm stepping up to the line thinking, okay, 37% of the time, if I serve wide here at 3015 in the game, I'm losing the point, you know, whatever. Like, those stats don't help me, right? So I think it's the same with any sort of stat for me anyway. So I don't part over-analizing things and becoming overwhelmed by those. But it does sound like you'll know going into a match, okay, you know, I win 65% of points when my opponent hits more back-ins or something somewhat simpler, but like that. Right. Simpler is better, in my opinion, when you're going on the court.

If you have, you know, a general game plan, you have your tactics that you're trying to do, you know your strengths, you know their weaknesses, you know how they're trying to beat you. maybe you have an idea of where they're serving on big points or, you know, little things like this. So absolutely, you have the stats in your mind, but again, not trying to let those take over and then overanalyze those. It's just a lot of brain energy on the wrong things at that point. So from a process standpoint, you look at the stats. Maybe you'll sit with your coach and start talking about a game plan, and then you'll have the game plan, and then you'll try to just focus on the game plan and win, that's pretty much it, right?

Yeah. Well, when you say like that, it sounds easy. Well, you made it look easy from time to time. Yeah, that's pretty much the process. But, I mean, once you're on the court, the ideal state is just trying to play your game. If you're doing the things you need to do right, it should be going okay, right? Are there certain athletes that you admire or you look up to a lot? could be within the sport or elsewhere absolutely and outside of athletics too i feel like i can

appreciate anybody that's just excelled really well at what they've done or sacrificed a lot to be where they are at sure um i just love you know reading stories and seeing other people's journeys and what kind of hardships they've gone through and challenges they've overcome i think everybody can just relate to those stories so much whether it's an athlete or or someone else um but for me within the sport of tennis, I mean, Serena's been incredible for our sport. She was so dominant for such a long time. And, you know, all of the mothers on tour I look up to, that's incredible what they're doing. Having, you know, one, two, three kids out there and still competing at a very high level is incredible to me. That's super inspiring. And I mean, now you look at tennis and

the age gap is kind of moving. You know, women and men are playing longer and longer. So I think that's inspiring to me, too, that, okay, I still have a pretty long career ahead of me. Do you think much about, you know, how much longer that career is? Do you take it a year at a time? You know, do you say to yourself, I'm going to play until I'm 40 and then I'm going to stop? You know, like, how do you think about it? Yeah, I don't like to really put that number limitation on myself. I always say, you know, if my body feels good, if my mind's there, I'm still enjoying it.

I still have passion. I still love it. I would love to keep playing because it's such an important part of my life and it's given me so much and I owe so much to the sport. I would definitely like to play as long as I can. For now, I guess a short-term goal like, you know, Olympics in three years in Paris would be kind of where I'm at and then go from there. But yeah, I'd love to play as long as I can. Are there specific goals that you have right now for yourself? Do you try to not make these broader goals of win this number of major? and win this number of tournaments and just focus on match to match? Or are you someone who, you know, has this little checklist at the beginning of every season and you say, you know, these are the things I'm going to accomplish. And then at the end of the season, you figure out whether or not you did it. Yeah, it's both for me.

I think I need those tangible goals to actually check off and be able to reward myself, you know, for accomplishing those. And I also need to be able to not tune them out, but during the season, you know, focus on match-to-match tournament to tournament, but, you know, for me, one goal that I was able to check off was after my injury getting back into the top 50, so that's really cool. And now I just have to keep pushing that bar. So now it's top 20. Now it's, you know, winning WTA titles. It's making it farther in slams, semi-finals of slams. There you go. So we're now at WOOP partners with the WTA. We're very excited about this

partnership. All the women will have access to WOOP. And we're also going to begin doing whoop live in matches, which I think is super cool. What do you think of the partnership? I'm so excited for it. It was honestly a struggle for the last few years not being able to wear the technology on court. And, you know, sometimes we try to, like, hide it under our sweatpants. Can I get in trouble for that for saying that? I don't know. But we try to, you know, find any way to, like, to, like, wear it on court. So it's very exciting to have that opportunity now. And I think a lot of the girls are going to, you know, use it for the first time and be really excited about it too. On top of that, I think it's just a great platform to showcase women's sports

even more, right? And the live part is a little daunting. It's a little scary. I don't know what my heart rate's going to be like in some big moments, but it was cool to see. I watched it when you guys did it with the PGA, and it was super cool. So I think it's a very awesome tool to be able to engage fans a little bit more and get them interested in our sport. I appreciate that. You know, one of the coolest things about whoop live is that you do actually typically see a reaction to pressure. You know, I think there's this misconception amongst fans that the world's best athletes don't get nervous. This gets back to a little bit of our conversation on stress. Like, it's not that you don't get nervous. It's that you've learned to cope with the moment or

learn to cope with the nerves. And so that's why I think it's so fascinating to see some of these heart rates in these, you know, big moments. And it's why I'm so excited to do it with you all in women's tennis. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I get a question a lot. you know, do you get nervous before matches? I get nervous before every single match I play. Right. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, but you can take that as a negative thing and say, oh, no, I'm nervous.

That means I'm not ready. That means I'm doubting myself. That means I'm scared. Or you can be like, okay, I'm nervous. That's my body telling me it's getting ready. That's my body saying I care. That's my body saying I want this more than the other person. You know, however you need to tell yourself that.

Yeah. So I think you're absolutely spot on with, you know, every single person's going to get scared. they're going to get nervous, they're going to feel that fear, but it's, do you retreat or do you do it anyway and prove to yourself that you can perform under those conditions? And I think even in some of the matches that I've played this season, some of the biggest moments, and we'll see if whoop is going to confirm this or not, but in terms of the biggest moments where, you know, maybe you think your heart rate's super elevated and super excited, I actually felt this overwhelming sense of calm, and then you're able to, you know, quote, get in the zone and be able to

perform really well. So I don't know. It would be interesting to see those stats, whether or not it's elevated or kind of plateaus for a second. Yeah, there's a little bit of a fun randomness to nerves, too, in that there's some moments where I imagine you would expect to feel more nervous and yet you've got to calm over you. Some of that's also, I think, the nature of a sport like tennis where you're obviously competing at a very high cardiovascular level. And so even just the pause in between points could create a feeling of calm, even if the moment has gotten more heightened. That's even something that we trained for, you know, being able to get our heart rate recovered in between points. So the data from a match is very much like a roller coaster where your heart rate's up and down.

And then we have a little bit of longer of a break on the changeover. So there's definitely a lot of variables throughout the match where you can can choose your response to stress, if you will. Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be so interesting just as a fan now to see like, you know, a split screen almost of heart rates between these between points. You know, if you've got like a deuce or an add-in and one person serving and it was, you know, a long point, it'll be interesting to see how long that person takes in between points. There's a little bit, I'm sure some points you take a little longer bouncing the ball, right? In some points it's a little faster, right? You're going to be a tennis coach before you know it. You're going to be out there. I mean, look, I play tennis as a kid, so I'm familiar with the sport. But, you know, what do you think? But I also think it's interesting because players will react differently. So some players play better when they're angry or, you know, excited or stimulated. And some players need to be a little more calm to be able to perform or they need to be, you know,

have this like quiet fire inside of them. So it'll be interesting, too, to contrast, like the personalities with the way they handle stress. That's right. I read a whole article years ago about Djokovic's like bouncing of his ball when he serves and he'll bounce it like 25 times just sort of randomly. Speak to that. Isn't that a little crazy? I mean, obviously it was getting up there for a while. It was getting up there in the very high numbers for a while. He's sort of neutralized that recently. It's not so crazy anymore. But I think that's in part too because they've now. added a time clock in between points, and if you go over that clock, you sort of get penalized. So I think they have cracked down on the rules because of those things. It's the Djokovic rule. Yeah, yeah. At the time, though, I mean, why not?

If it distracts your opponent and throws their rhythm off, you know what I mean? They're sitting over there super annoyed by you bouncing the ball 27 times. I mean. It is annoying. Yeah, it was annoying to watch. So Whoop Live, we're excited about that. We're really excited about this partnership. Absolutely.

And I can wait to hear the feedback. of, you know, people that are watching and seeing it. I think the Woop Live at the PGA got a lot of positive feedback. So hopefully. Totally. And that was, you know, that's still V1 too because, you know, for the Ryder Cup, for example, we were just doing the first hole and them teeing off. But you can imagine like, okay, John Rom won the U.S. Open and he's making these 25-foot

putts on the 17th and 18th holes to win the tournament. like I want to see his heart rate when he's walking around the put. I want to see it when he's standing over it. I want to see when it goes in. You know, and once I think we can make Whoop Live part of that big moment, I think it'll be great for hopefully the sport and hopefully it'll be create good brand awareness for us,

but at least that's how I think about it. I want to see the contrasting data between the golfer and the caddy or the player and the coach. Oh, yeah, totally. Oh, yeah, totally. Well, we're looking at it right now in another very, very high viewership sport and I can tell you the the broadcast partner that we're working with on it wants to put them on the owners of the teams which I think is kind of a funny concept you know

they do that shot to the box of the owner pacing around looking kind of nervous yeah yeah so gum just so nervous yeah yeah so anyway there's a lot of fun ways to take it and I think that is the point it's supposed to be fun and and engaging for fans What are some tools or resources that you look to when you think about getting a performance edge and, you know, recovery, sleep? Some of the themes that we touched on, where do you like to get information from? Now it's a lot of podcasts, honestly, you know, talking to people around you, learning from some really special minds that are out there and just have so much experience over the years. I like to talk to other players, you know, if they're willing to speak to me. Um, sometimes it's easier to talk to the retired ones.

They're a little more willing to share, yeah, share information, but just constantly trying to be in this pursuit of knowledge, I think is the most important thing for me and not getting, obviously we have our routines and things that we know work, but to not be afraid of change. It's not be afraid of adding anything or, or letting go of things or getting rid of things that aren't, you know, fueling you or helping you anymore. So I think that's just important to be fluid a little bit with your, um, to day routines and see if you can shift things around to help yourself.

That's funny. You mentioned the current players versus the retired players. I was talking to Justin Thomas. And I forget whether it was on the podcast or not, but he was saying that he became buddies with Tiger Woods. You know, when Tiger was going through these back surgeries and he'd go over to Tiger's house, Tiger would give him all these tips. And then all of a sudden Tiger's back from back surgery.

And Justin goes to ask him some tips. And Tiger's like, yeah, okay, you know, and give him nothing. yeah absolutely and maybe he regrets some of those stories he told him or what yeah yeah yeah he's like look maybe you've learned enough uh no but it's that is pretty funny just the difference and you know you can't help be probably super competitive especially in individual sport exactly what i was going to say especially in an individual sport where you know you're always looking for that edge and it's literally you against another person like gladiators out there um a lot of players you know very like that on tour too they'll keep the

themselves or they won't, you know, have lunch with other people or, you know, just stay within their team and others are very social and, you know, move around the locker rooms and joke a little bit more. So it's definitely an interesting dynamic. You know, I make a lot of comparisons between golf and tennis because they're both individual sports. Although it's interesting in golf, a lot of the players will say that they feel more than anything they're competing against themselves or the golf course versus competing against another individual player. Sure, maybe in the last hole or two. They feel like they've got one person to beat. But it's not like Justin's dropping Rory's ball or kicking Rory's ball or whatever, right? Like they don't actually have that much

influence on each other. And I wonder how you think about that in tennis. Do you think of it as, look, all I have to do today is beat this person? Or do you think of it as, you know, I want to be the best version of myself today. And we'll see if that's good enough, you know? Absolutely. It's both. I mean, some days, all you have to do if you're not feeling well is just be better than her. Or say it's a super windy day. All you have to do is handle the wind better than they do. You don't have to play everyone in the tournament that day. So I think tennis is unique in that way, and that's part of the reason I love the sport,

is it just you out there and what you do directly influences your opponent, which is pretty cool and pretty tough at the same time, right? And you might go out there, your game plan's working from the start, and then all of a sudden they're not just going to roll. over and let you beat them. So then they change their style of play and you have to totally alter your game plan and what you're trying to do out there. So that goes back to what we were saying. You go out there with a game plan and your tactics, but that can change very quickly. Or maybe they're just, you know, randomly hitting forehand well that day. And, you know,

that's the side you're trying to break down. So it's just this constant problem solving where you're on the core chess match, if you will. It's interesting you bring that up this idea of, okay, you had this game plan and then you're seeing it's not working. How conscious do you feel like you are of that game plan. Is that something like you might be adjusting more set to set or game to game point to point? You know, obviously you don't want to feel like you're overreacting to a good shot than an opponent had.

But I'm just curious, you know, you touched on that. That's an interesting strategic question. Yeah, I mean, it is constantly changing because the way scoring works in tennis too, it favors a person losing almost because you win a game and then it resets to zero. you win a set and then you're back to zero and say you win the first set six zero you've won you could win every single point in the first set and it really doesn't matter because now you're back to zero starting a new set and if they win that set then you're even again you know what I mean so the scoring is very challenging too and you're constantly just resetting and reevaluating

and problem solving out there what works in the first set might not work in the second the weather could completely change like there's so many variables that can happen so it's just this constant evaluation of like what's going on there's a lot more i think internal that's happening when you know people are watching a match then maybe they realize it's a lot of like a mental battle too as someone who's you know further along in her career maybe that's an area of the game where you feel like you can be even more effective than your opponent you know the mental side of the game or the the chess match of the game no absolutely it's a huge part of the game and i think that's what a lot of people talk about when they refer to experience like oh she's just starting on tour she doesn't

have this experience and i think that's really like match experience match toughness match like knowledge how do these matches play out the more the more you play them the more quote experience you get and you figure out trends of of how this is going to go and how you can handle that best well look shelby i think you have a really uh you know special perspective on on the sport and also on recovery and lifestyle decisions so thrilled to have you on whoop and uh this has been fun i've really enjoyed again to spend some time with you i look forward to uh hopefully getting to meet you in person soon and again pumped to have you on whoop yeah thank you so much for having me we got to get you out to some tennis tournaments well i know that's that's probably my next phase now that we're

all in on tennis i'm going to start coming to some tennis tournaments you have an eye for it i can see it you're going to be you're going to be analyzed in a day and you're going to be you know yeah i'll have some notes yeah i'll have some notes for you after after a match yeah that's exactly that's exactly what you need yeah right all right well this has been awesome shelby thank you uh for coming on the wood podcast thank you will it was a pleasure thank you to shelby for coming on the whoop podcast if you enjoyed this episode of the whip podcast please be sure to leave a rating or review subscribe to the whoop podcast you can check us out on social at woup at will amad And of course, you can get 15% off a WOOP membership, which includes the new WOOP 4.0, by using the code Will.

That's W-I-L-L. We'll be back next week. In the meantime, stay healthy, and stay in the green.