WHOOP Podcast - Using technology to improve the lives of healthcare workers

Episode Date: November 11, 2020

WHOOP VP of Performance Kristen Holmes sits down with Arena Labs founder and CEO Brian Ferguson to discuss the future of healthcare and how hospitals and medical organizations can optimize performance in the operating room, the ICU, and beyond. Brian dives deep on his transition from the military to healthcare (3:05), the complexity of modern healthcare (6:41), teamwork in medicine (7:12), burnout in the healthcare field (11:06), how to measure the strain placed on doctors and nurses (13:20), studying stress during the pandemic (17:39), the toll taken on frontline staff (19:40), the motivations of healthcare workers (23:26), avoiding information overload (27:39), and capturing the spirit of service (28:29).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

Hello, folks. Welcome to the WOOP podcast. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, the founder and CEO of WOOP, and we are on a mission to unlock human performance. That's right. We build technology across hardware and software and analytics that's designed to help you improve your health, improve your performance. If you are unfamiliar with a WOOP membership or not a current WOOP member, you can use the code Will Ahmed, W-W-I-L-H-M-E-D, for 50. 15% off your WOOP membership. Happy Veterans Day. I have to say it is a great privilege and honor that WOOP serves so many members of the

armed services. We've gotten to know a huge number of veterans through their use of WOOP. We obviously have worked with a number of different pockets of the military. And for anyone listening, I just want to say thank you for your service. This week's episode focused on the future of technology and health care and how hospitals and medical organizations can optimize performance in the operating room, the ICU, and beyond. VP of Performance, Kristen Holmes, sits down with Arena Labs founder and CEO Brian Ferguson. Arena Labs is a cutting-edge organization that is pioneering the field of high performance medicine. It was born out of Brian's experience in the military.

He served in the Navy Special Operations and the Pentagon and is now using that experience to improve. improve modern day healthcare. And thank you to Brian for his service. Brian and Kristen talk about the importance of creating high performing teams in the world of medicine, the burnout, so many doctors and nurses experience, and why that sets a dangerous precedent in the field, the effect of COVID-19 on doctors, nurses, and frontline staff, why military personnel and health care workers are cut from the same cloth and the future of robotics in medicine. I think it's a great podcast, and without further ado, here are Brian and Kristen. It is my pleasure to introduce Brian Ferguson, founder and CEO of Arena Labs.

Brian has spent his career in high-performance organizations as a leader in special operation forces, technology, innovation, national security, and medicine. In this podcast, we will dig into the evolution of high-performance medicine and why it is so critical to the future of health care, how a multidisciplinary lens can form the modern operating room, the Whoop Arena intersection, and finally, hybrid teams, humans, and robots. Brian, welcome. Thank you. You know, you kind of start out in special operations and then, you know, you're the founder of Arena Labs and CEO. Just give us maybe some background on how you go from special operations to founding Arena Labs. So the first part of my career,

actually even prior to being in the military, I was fortunate. And really the first kind of 15 years of my career were in the broader national security ecosystem. I started off kind of on what's known as the policy side, so not actually in uniform, but wearing a suit and a tie. And I think the reason that's relevant is there's two things that were happening in the world. This is right after 9-11. So I saw how a large government organization like the Pentagon of the White House was thinking about decisions of magnitude at scale and a world full of information. And I was learning an extraordinary amount. And at the same time, there were these amazing leaders in the military that were rising to these positions that I was learning from. And at that, that

time, I then, you know, later in life, I joined the military. And, you know, I had a relatively short career. I was in for seven years and just an extraordinary, you know, the type of people I was around, the pedigree of thinker and just individuals who were going after hard problems was beyond energizing. And as I started to look beyond that chapter, I knew I wanted to work on something that had the same level of meaning. And I often say, you know, now that we're, I grew up in health care. My mom was a nurse. And I often say that when you look at people, the archetype of individual who goes into the military, particularly into the special operations community, they're individuals who want to do hard things. They want to save lives and impact the

world. And as it turns out, that's really the same archetype you see in most of medicine. So there was a natural gravitation there for me. When I left the military, in fact, right as I was leaving, I had the privilege of when you decide to get out of the military, you have about a one-year a glide slope where you're really transitioning into that civilian life. And because I had been a civilian already, I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And so I was really working hard to use that year productively. And I was working in an innovation cell that was trying to understand how we would bring emerging technology into the particular part of special operations where I was serving.

And through that, I was collaborating with a whole bunch of unlikely partners. And I ended up, I'm from Cleveland, Ohio originally, and I ended up at the Cleveland Clinic, Heart and Vascular Institute. I had actually reached out blindly to this heart surgeon named Doug Johnston. And so he invited me over for breakfast. And I was curious to understand how are heart surgery teams thinking about the evolution of technology in a very high stakes environment. It turns out cardiac surgery is very similar to special operations. You have a small team of eight to 12 people working in a time compressed high stakes environment. And so Doug brings me into, not only we have this conversation, he says, why don't you come join me and watch a couple

procedures. And so I watch him, I think, do at the time two different heart surgeries. And on one hand, I was really impressed with the technological advancement of just modern medicine. But I always said, in the other hand, I was astounded that there was no conversation at the individual or the team level about performance. And what is it that, you know, how do you navigate stress and pressure, both individually and as a team? And so that, that, I guess, intrigue is really what led me on The Odyssey to eventually found Arena Labs and how you and I eventually intersected. There are a lot of challenges inherent to incorporating kind of this high performance mindset in medicine. And so maybe as a start, you can describe just the current state

of health care and then kind of give us a roadmap into how do we transform or, you know, what can we do to really help this become a more productive, kind of high-performing outfit? Healthcare is just, it's an incredibly complex institution. And there's obviously the hospital side and then there's the insurer's side. And it gets, I always say that what I remember when I was working in the Pentagon, my boss told me that there's about a two-year learning curve to really understand the Pentagon. And at the time, and he was very, it was very accurate. But I also, at the time, I believe that it was the most common.

complex institution in the world, the U.S. national security architecture, meaning defense and intelligence and diplomacy, I've since evolved on that thinking, and I really have come to believe that modern health care is the most complex ecosystem there is, at least in the United States. And so when we think about it, you know, one of the things I've come to believe, Kristen, is that if I deconstruct and, you know, now having been privileged to watch a lot of surgeries and be around a lot of the great minds in modern health care, I believe that the future of world-class care is not in the regulatory environment.

It's not in policy or technology. It's in building high-performing teams. And the reason for that, and this is, I'm sure, something we can dig into more. But just generally, if one is an observer to the world of health care, there is a massive focus for good reason on technical skill and on the technical side of medicine, whether that's in surgery or, you know, diagnosis. But at the end of the day, it's a team endeavor. And it's an endeavor where people come together in high-pressure circumstances to take care of people.

And one of my humble critiques is that medicine doesn't focus on developing that team. So most of the things that we hear and see as solutions are external or they're focused, again, in policy and technology. And so we believe that the way you start to really change health care is from within by focus on the most important asset, and that's the front-line caregiver. So, Brian, can you give us just some examples of, like, what does that look like practically? You know, when we talk about kind of transforming potentially these environments, you know, what does that look like on a practical level? So just like in any discipline, whether someone's an athlete, whether they're in the military,

there tends to be this, you know, there's the person on the front lines and the front lines of health care are you that right now the nurses and physicians and technicians treating, COVID patients in ICUs and ERs in sports. That's the woman or man on the field, so to speak. And there ends up, there's beyond the front line, then there are people who are decision makers and are grappling with everything from strategy to budgeting. And so when we think about high performance medicine, the entire vision has been built around bringing the same tools and technology and training that is used in other high pressure,

high-performing disciplines into health care. And so what I mean by that is, you know, if you think about someone that comes out of the world of special operations, they could have been in Green Beret and Navy SEAL, that could have been, you know, any part of the military as a fighter pilot, et cetera, or they were an athlete, or maybe they're someone who performs on stage for Cirque de Soleil every night, all of those people, because their work by nature is demanding in high stakes and comes with pressure and stress, there's a massive amount of resources that go into training those, First, those individuals, how to manage stress, and then the teams, not only how to manage

stress, but how to navigate stress and uncertainty in times of crisis, or, frankly, in times of homeostasis, how do you build great teams? And so in health care, the very practical, tactical level in the front line, what Arena Labs does is focus on making those tools available, accessible, and most importantly, highlighting the value that they can bring to a young nurse. or physician or technician. And most of our work right now is in surgical teams, but this applies, frankly, to anyone in a clinical environment.

It seems so obvious, right, that you'd want to give any individual who's in a high-stake environment the tools to be able to cope with the stressors that are going to come with that type of work. And I know you're really passionate about trying to solve the burnout and frontline healthcare workers and surgeons. You know, how do you see the work that Arena is doing? as kind of a pivotal bridge to try to solve some of these issues, because frankly, the diseases are a bit staggering and heartbreaking, really, when you look at just the,

I guess, I guess just the stress, you know, that these folks are under and, again, under-resourced. But how do you think about the work that you're doing and as it relates to this kind of national epidemic, really? Yeah, for maybe additional context, for those who aren't familiar with health care, I mean, these are things that I've learned in my own journey, but, you know, that one of the many, let's, you know, not to be melodramatic about it, but crises that's happening right now in healthcare and frankly that has been massively elevated by the COVID pandemic is that of burnout. And put simply, you know, there's a number of reasons for burnout and there's a number

of different symptoms depending on, you know, what clinical studies you read, but it's, it's the point at which someone has been under an extraordinary amount of stress or, you know, in their own field starts to lose that focus and passion and that manifests itself in different ways. But what, you know, the concern that really that brings to health care is number one turnover, people who frankly are just, you know, no longer want to do this work and want to go do something else. And then the second equally important, if not more, is that of patient safety. Because when someone isn't as focused and they're tired and they're burned out, they can't be in obviously a peak state to deliver health care services.

Most people, so when you look at burnout, you know, I think that the most recent studies, it's approaching 50% of physicians report a symptom of burnout. And that can be, you know, anything from at the mental level and inability to focus to at the physiological level, you start to see people have endocrine dysfunction, fat retention, sleep disturbance. But at the end of the day and all of the data that's gathered, one of the things that's that I find amazing is when people, even though you will hear leaders in healthcare talk about burnout is one of their number one challenges, the only real metrics they have are self-reported surveys. And by nature of a self-reported survey, that means that, you know, we're already being reactive. This is

something that's already happened. Someone either is reporting symptoms of burnout or they're actually reporting that they're burned out. In either case, that's a very big deal for an institution and for the teams that that person serves on. And so if you think about, one of the things arena, we're grappling with is how do we get upstream of that and start to get better data that can point leaders and administrators and hospitals to a better understanding of their teams and where they stand at any moment in time. If you think about right now what's going on in COVID, most hospitals, they could tell you, they know that either they're a place like New York that was significantly impacted by volume and stress. And so they know there was a very real

impact, but they probably can't measure that physiologically in terms of data on individual frontline caregivers. Or they were a place that was bracing for that impact and sort of had this chronic stress and nervousness hanging around, but it never quite had the same volume they might have anticipated in a place like New York. And so in both of those instances, there's this real, this real impact that's not measured. And that's obviously where it started to make a lot of sense for us is you and I met and started exploring how whoop could be put on front line teams and bring that data to life. I think it's the type of solution that's ultimately going to give the level of visibility and understanding and proactive posture that hospitals really need

to deal with burnout. Yeah. And what's your take on just how it's been received? Because it really is a completely different way of thinking for folks. In your view, what has been the reception? One of the things I realized is that until someone has data, their own data they can look at and see where they're deficient or the fact that they haven't slept and they're chronically underrested, it's really hard to convince them. And so we were doing work with this team of residence. And two things happen. One is I started to see them engaging around the language of performance in a very different

way because they were making the connection. At the end of the day, performance isn't magic. It's understanding yourself mentally and physically and how to constantly develop to a higher level of health and focus so that you can be at your best. The other thing that happened is there was I think 15 residents in this group, this cohort, and they had all come in on a Friday and their recovery scores were all red. I mean, they were to a person with the exception of one, they were all under recovered. And so as a joke, the person on our team leading that conversation said, hey, did what happened Thursday night? And there was sort of laughter. And as it turned out, they had had a celebration for their residency.

They had a speaker come in and they all went out and enjoyed drinks together, which is great. What was fascinating is no one was aware that here you had 15 residents come in to an organization where they're a massive part of how that organization functions. And they were all in a state of being underslept, poor recovery, and probably cognitively not nearly at their peak. And so this, it just made it clear to me, like, these are the types of dashboards that every hospital should have so they can be smarter about how they staff develop and ultimately keep their teams at their best. We've got a quite a massive study that is currently being spun up and we, I guess you probably can't call out exactly who we're working with. But do you want to talk a little bit, Brian, about about that study and how it's going to help kind of answer some of the questions that we're posing around, just around. burnout and this concept of readiness and being proactive as opposed to reactive.

And yeah, just would love to kind of for you to share with our listeners to study and what the aims are and what we're hoping to learn. Absolutely. So, you know, over the last six months for context for listeners, as we've explored whoop and started to see how do we take the data capabilities of whoop and begin to integrate them for better insights and more importantly, probably seeing blind spots healthcare, we partnered with a very well-known large hospital in the U.S. to put whoops on 500 frontline staff. And the reason for that is twofold. So one is obviously everyone on

listening is familiar with the pioneering work that WOOP has done around COVID and respiratory rate. And so one of the ideas is as flu season approaches, as COVID continues to be a major concern. This is a way to get data around COVID and frontline caregivers. But what I will continue to argue is the far more exciting and valuable insights will come from the second order value, which is understanding at scale, so 500 frontline caregivers, understanding at scale what stress looks like during a pandemic. Because if we just look at the way the world is evolving, and And no matter where we work, whether we're in business, whether in medicine, the military, the world feels more dynamic and more stressful.

And so if we can start to understand what stress looks like, particularly in a time of crisis, in this case a pandemic, again, it can give us far better insights, particularly hospitals, and how to resource, how to train people and how to give folks a release valve. I mean, you know, I mean, you and I kind of kid around, we can't tell a medical team to go take a nap. But we can think about the way, we can help them, think about the way they staff and the way that they give people breaks who've been through very intense periods of high pressure work, just like athletes do, just like the military now does. You know, you talk about just the intensity of these environments, and I guess I just wonder, you know, is it possible to make someone be able to handle those demands mentally and physically without the long-term costs of that type of training? I mean, the short answer is, I think the data will shows us right now that it doesn't work. And frankly, that's probably one of the framing reasons that we're having this conversation of the challenges health care is having right now and why that.

that feeling is elevated. I mean, the, the, the Mayo Clinic in 2014, Tate Chanafelt, ran this, ran a study of burnout. And one of the things they found is, you know, 20, if you just look across the population in general, whether someone's in business, depending on what they do, 28% of people report burnout. In medicine, that's 38%. Now, not so physicians, but, but either way, that those numbers are going up. And I would posit that one of the reasons for that is that people in modern health care are being number one they're being asked to do more with less they're more is being put on their plate and and much of that is it's it's acute sickness it's people who you know and right now you look at what's happening in COVID and then the second

order effects of people who've stayed home and now are showing up when they should have been there six months ago and they're even sicker and so for people who have a true sense of service in the world and they want to help there's a psychosomatic toll that takes on your body of feeling that stress. So I don't believe it. Now, I think it's really important. And we talk about this all the time in arena. Being in health care, particularly in demanding very sick or acute environments, that's not for everyone. And there needs to be a selection process. It's why the military is a selection process. It's why high level athletic teams do. Because you have to show that you do have the ability to technically perform at the level required of you. And as not, if not more important,

perform as an individual and a teammate in a very high stress demanding environment. So that's why residency and a lot of the training that nurses go through is so important. The question is, why not then and start to invest just as aggressively in the tools that allow that person once they're trained to have a career that is longitudinally both healthy and full of the resources that allow them to continue to improve and get better? Brian, is it actually possible for someone to be world-class in health care and have a kind of long, healthy life? I think the data, so two parts of this. One, as I mentioned earlier, the data right now would suggest it's increasingly hard to do that.

If we're using burnout as an indicator, the other side of that is anecdotally the amount of nurses and physicians we've interacted with who will privately tell us. how daunting their craft is and what a toll it's taking on them. I feel like those numbers are, I don't know that I can say they're growing, but I say that they're more prevalent than I would have expected. What I think is fascinating and is not talked about enough in the conversation about health care. So we use the term at Arena Labs, the sacred world of medicine. And one of my favorite images, I know you've seen this, Kristen, and we've talked about it with your team, but one of my favorite images is the 1987 National Geographic Photo of the Year. We can maybe put a link in our notes here. But for those who are listening, it's this iconic photo taken in an operating

room in Poland. And the surgeon, Dr. Religa, it was the first heart transplant ever conducted in the Eastern Block. So think 1987, the state of technology, this was said to be impossible. It was also very difficult to do in Poland at the time. And so the surgery takes 23 hours. And there's this incredibly inspiring, beautiful photograph in which when you look at the, the physical being of the surgeon, you can tell that he's absolutely exhausted. And you look in the back corner of the room and the nurse who has devoted herself so intensely to this procedure, she's literally collapsed and sleeping in the back corner of the room. And then I ask folks to look at the eyes of the surgeon.

And so when you look in his eyes, you can see him almost willing that patient to stay alive. And so when we think about that image and everything it represents, we call it the sacred world of medicine. And what is incredibly powerful that I personally don't think is leveraged enough is that when people go into medicine, they do it again because they want to save lives, they do something hard, and they have a deeply spiritual reason almost for wanting to contribute to the world. And they get into this very high tempo, high-stakes environment that can be unforgiving.

And what I think is not protected enough against is that these are very capable men and women. But without the resources that what we're seeing is statistically people are burning out. And when someone is in a craft where they're not motivated just by financial outcomes or maybe, you know, at the end of the day, what people in medicine are motivated by is an ethos that transcends their own being. They come to work because they believe in something bigger themselves. That is incredibly powerful. But as leaders, if you don't protect against that, and offer those people resources to protect against their own inclination to overwork and go too hard because they believe so much, we see what happened. This is the story of the American

military in the last 20 years. You have young men and women who devoted their lives to something bigger. And it came at a high cost. And so I think we're seeing that play out in health care right now. And so there are world-class people and they're burning out. But it's not a simple solution. It requires a lot of time in cultural change, but if you bring the things that we've learned in other disciplines in those tools, giving, you know, teaching people how to meditate, teaching people mental toughness tools like self-talk, you know, the visualization, those things go a long way. And personally, I think that's how you allow both of those things to coexist, that being

world class and having a flourishing long career. Brian, so when we think about just the future of technology, I'd love to hear you talk about hybrid teams, humans and robots and what that looks like in the future of health care. One of the things that we started to see a lot is we were spending, our teams were spending time embedded in operating rooms and with frontline teams around the country is that there's this natural evolution in healthcare that it's always been happening. It just feels more intense today. And that's that you're starting to see robotics and minimally invasive procedures become more commonplace. And on top of that is artificial intelligence platforms, these

advanced technology tools that are amplifying the clinical environment in one way or another, and that's great. What's challenging about that is that when you start to see technology show up, the technology itself is actually changing the environment. And what that means is that the human system has to evolve. And if the human system doesn't evolve, you get this real friction between this advanced technology, whether it's a robot or artificial intelligence, and the way that team is trained. So if we step back, and the example I love to use is roughly 2001, 2002 is when the first drone showed up on the battlefield. It was used at the time by the Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA. And whatever one thinks about drones politically, they enabled a far more precise form of warfare that saved lives.

And in order to use drones effectively, though, as they became more commonplace and started being used by ground units in the Army and the Navy and special operations, that in order to leverage a teammate in the sky that was a robot, whether that was for intelligence or insights or making smarter, more precise decisions, in order to do that, the human system on the ground actually had to train differently. That system had to learn how do we talk to that robot in the sky, how do we pull the right information so that we make better decisions? That's an easy statement to make, but it's actually a really challenging solution to employ when we start talking about the way that we train and deploy teams. In healthcare right now, I think what we see is that if, as an example, if a hospital starts a robotic heart surgery, or just excuse me, not a heart

surgery, but a robotic program where they're doing surgery in a way that is no longer traditional. There's often friction points there. And if those friction points become too much, it's not uncommon for that program to be abandoned because they can go back to the old way of doing things. So the military had the forcing function of they had to evolve. But one of the things that I I think is fascinating that in the military aviation community, a friend of mine was one of the early test pilots in the F-35 platform. And that's an advanced fighter jet essentially. And so one of the stories he tells is that the first time he flew that platform, the helmet he was wearing had a whole bunch of augmented reality data that was put on the inside of his helmet. So when he was looking

out the visor and into the cockpit, he had a whole bunch of data not only in the cockpit, but inside his visor. And it was so much so that it was distracting that he couldn't focus. He was literally overloaded. He was cognitively overloaded. At what point is too much information not effective or when does it become too much? And how do we think about what really matters? Because as medicine continues to evolve, there's no shortage of machines and technologies and platforms that can be put into an operating room or given to a team. And so this is where at the higher level, why we step back and say, okay, what are the first principles of high performance in the operating room? How do we make this team their best and think about the technology that can amplify

the team in the right ways and then train people so that when they come in, they understand how to use that technology and they can evolve with it rather than focusing just on the technology as the solution and end up frustrating or leaving that team overwhelmed. All right. So I know we're coming up here on time. So I want to make sure I get to ask you just a few questions, and these are just kind of fun. But if you have a favorite quote, what is it? And why is it your favorite? I keep a running list of quotes.

I've been doing this since I was like 16. And there are too many here. I think if the one that right now is at the top of my list, this is from a young man who I believe passed away in Vietnam, John Alexander Hoddle. He went to West Point. He was a Rhodes Scholar. And so he had he had written this before he had, before he passed away.

And it's a quote about his service. He says, we all have but one death to spend. And insofar as it can have any meaning, it finds it in the service of comrades in arms. And yet I deny that I died for anything, not my country, not my army, not my fellow man, none of these things. I lived for these things. And the manner in which I chose to do it involved the very real chance that I would die in the execution of my duties. I knew this and I accepted it. But my love for West Point and Army was great enough. And the promise that I would someday be able to serve all the ideals that meant

anything to me through it was great enough for me to accept this possibility as a part of a price which must be paid for all things of great value. If there is nothing worth dying for in this sense. There's nothing worth living for. I lived a full life in the army and it has exacted the priced. It is only just. For me, that captures the spirit of service. You know, you hear that and it can, it's certainly reminiscent of military service, but it's one of the reasons, again, that I always feel very honored to be around people in health care because many of these people believe in what they're doing so much so that they would give their life for it. And we frankly have seen that in some cases in the way that people have approached COVID

and chosen to show up. And I just think that is the spirit that brings hope. That's the spirit that changes the way people see the world. And so that always brings me energy when I read it. Oh, my gosh, so beautiful. In two sentences or less, if there was one thing that you could say that you knew the whole world would hear and see, what would it be? When I think about advice, I don't know that I've got a lot, but I try to think

about the context of the world. And I think, I think given the state of the world, this may sound either naive or like I'm, you know, that I'm missing the fact that there's a lot of hard things going on in the world. But I actually, I deeply believe there's never been a better time to be alive. And so for me, if I thought about a quote, it's there's never been a better time to be alive, be better every day. And that for me, the be better every day is kind of been my own mantra. And I, you know, when you initially hear that, people think it's like this sort of this cycle of constantly pushing yourself or it can get caught up in a set of things that aren't productive. But I actually think about it as be a better man, be a better family member, be a better member in society. And that simple mantra for me just opens up a mindset each day of, I think, being humble to learn and listen and engage and frankly just do my part.

heart. And when I think of the possibilities of the world, there's a ton of noise right now. There's a lot of things that certainly brings someone, for good reason, a sense of cynicism. But when I think about the possibilities that allow, you know, through a connected world and advancing technology, there's certainly drawbacks. But I really believe there's never a better time to be alive. And so if you go in with that mindset of being a little better every day, I find it's just a it's a way to constantly feel the humility of that possibility. That's just like a great way to kind of get you in this mindset too, where you're just thinking about being, you know, just you're grateful, right?

Like we just, there's so much possibility ahead for all of us. And I think to approach it with that framework is really powerful. It's amazing. Brian, thank you so much for the work that you and your team are doing to understand and support humans and teams. You are making such a difference and, you know, really changing the course of health care. So excited to continue to follow your work and love that, you know, Boop and Arena can continue to collaborate.

Yeah, we'll keep everyone posted on, on some of the progress of the studies that we're in. And we'll make sure that you guys are up to speed on all the good things happening with Arena and the collaborations in the future. Yeah, Kristen, what goes without saying, really grateful for the partnership here, the way that you've pressed us to think in the way this has evolved. And ultimately, what it's led to is a smarter way for us to think about our work. And at the end of the day, I think we've both agreed that pursuing the idea of becoming the largest aggregator of data for frontline teams as it relates to stress is something that would really allow healthcare to advance and move forward. And the way you've driven that and given us some really interesting and roads we're grateful for. So thanks for having me.

Thank you to Brian and Kristen for being on the WOOP podcast. A reminder, you can use the code Will Ahmed, W-W-I-L-A-H-M-E-D to get 15, percent off a whoop membership, which includes the whoop strap 3.0. You can follow us on social at whoop at Will Ahmed and stay healthy folks. You know, The President