WHOOP Podcast - World-class photographer Nigel Barker discusses performing under pressure, moderating your drinking, and the true meaning of beauty

Episode Date: October 7, 2020

WHOOP VP of Performance Kristen Holmes sits down with media superstar Nigel Barker, one of the top photographers on the planet. Nigel was a long-time judge on America's Next Top Model and has shot photos for some of the biggest stars in the world, including Taylor Swift. Nigel discusses finding confidence and overcoming nerves (3:30), competing with Olympic rowers on his WHOOP team (8:01), drinking in moderation (11:58), what he’s learned from WHOOP (13:39), overcoming hangovers (15:47), becoming a TV star despite having no experience (20:36), following your dreams (24:08), taking risks (31:50), dealing with criticism (36:07), turning disappointment into success (39:35), the true meaning of beauty (41:59), and believing in yourself (45:49).Support the showFollow WHOOP: www.whoop.com Trial WHOOP for Free Instagram TikTok YouTube X Facebook LinkedIn Follow Will Ahmed: Instagram X LinkedIn Follow Kristen Holmes: Instagram LinkedIn Follow Emily Capodilupo: LinkedIn

Hello, folks. Welcome to the WOOP podcast. I'm your host, Will Ahmed, the founder and CEO of Whoop, where we are on a mission to unlock human performance. We build wearable technology, across hardware, software, analytics. It's a full-blown membership that is designed to tell you everything about your body. And if you use the code Will Ahmed, that's W-I-L-L-A-H-M-E-D, you can get 15 percent off your WOOP membership. We got a great episode for you today. The VP of performance at Woop, Kristen Holmes, back again. And she sits down with Nigel Barker, one of the most recognizable media personalities out there today. He's one of the top photographers on the planet. He's worked with some of the biggest stars in the world, including Taylor Swift. He is known by many for

his television work, including his time as a judge on America's next top model. Nigel discusses how you can turn nervousness into a powerful tool to help you excel in the moment, his relationship with alcohol and how he balances drinking while still performing at a high level, learning to deal with criticism and how the most successful people in the world have used criticism to improve themselves, finding self-confidence in the most authentic version of yourself, and what he thinks the true meaning of beauty is. Nigel is a very bright and thoughtful person. he goes in depth on the creative process and shares a lot of his philosophies on art, beauty,

and life in general. I think you're going to enjoy this episode. And without further ado, here are Kristen and Nigel. Our guest this week is Nigel Barker. Nigel is a creative force and literally at the very tip of the spear in terms of his influence over pop culture and his pioneering work in the industry of fashion and TV. Plus, bonus, Nigel is a Woot member. On this podcast, Nigel and I will dive into the pleasures and pain of creative life being an artist versus doing art and the connection between creative mastery, physiological data, and psychological states. Nigel, welcome. Wow, thank you very much. We're going to discuss all those things. The way you describe

them, they sound so technological. I'm not sure I can keep up, but I'll do my best. I know, Nigel. I'm kind of like more on the serious side. So I'm going to, I'm really trying to loosen up here so I can kind of, you know, match your flow and your ease. And that's kind of where I'd love to start. Like, you know, Nigel, obviously I've been watching on TV for decades and have always followed you. And you made me sound very old when you say decades. Decades. I mean, okay. It's probably true. But you just, you like really have this ease and confidence about you that I. just really admire, and I think probably, you know, one of the reasons why, you know, people gravitate to you and potentially one of the reasons for the massive success you've had, I just wonder, I'd love to know kind of where does that come from? It comes from decades. You know, and all joking aside, I mean, the reality is that I think I'm first of, I'm just quite lucky to be, to have done what I've done in my,

career, and therefore, so much of what, of your one's confidence comes from practice and comes from feeling secure in what you do and knowing what you do. And, you know, nerves sometimes are a good thing, too. And don't get me wrong, it's not to suggest that one never has nerves. There are times and occasions and events that I've done where you do get a sort of a touch of stage fright. And actually channeling that is very powerful. And in fact, I often tell people who perhaps get a bit of stage fright now and then that there's an incredibly charming aspect to that sort of humility and modesty that comes with stage fright. If you can channel it right, if you look terrified, obviously that's not going to work, but that's because you've channeled it

in the wrong direction. But being sort of modest, if you like, or it's, you know, it's a or just to be able to sort of pull it in and be like, okay, I'm shy right now. Well, wow, this is a lot, actually comes off in a really endearing manner and actually can be very charismatic. So I always tell people to play with however they feel at that moment, their comfort level, and realize it's not wrong. It's never wrong. And in fact, if you're too overconfident, it can seem obnoxious.

So there is that fine balance. And, you know, I have been doing this for decades. I mean, truth be told, I really have. I started in this business when I was 18, 19 years old, and I'm now almost 50. So there you go. There you have it. You know, so it's been a long time and many, many, many years and seasons, and I think we worked it out one time, but it's almost 400 episodes of television I've done on prime time

over the past couple, 20 years, so a lot. A lot of repetitions, Nigel. One of the things that stands out is, you know, and I think about this from a physiological perspective, you know, the nerves, the claminess, the increased in heart rate, you know, that's just your sympathetic branch of your nervous system, right, telling you it's time to go. And I think to your point, like being able to channel that in a positive way is also a skill. And a lot of times it is about the repetitions that kind of get you to a place where you can channel that productively. And there's kind of no way to kind of escape the work that has to happen in the background so you can

arrive in that moment and really, you know, be president and be able to kind of present your best self or your craft in that moment. I mean, I think that, you know, certainly if I look back, I remember getting gigs and, you know, whether it be a big photo shoot, you know, where there was perhaps a lot of money at risk or a big name, celebrity, or model that I had to photograph, or it was just a big deal and I'd worked hard to get there and now finally here was that moment. Or it was, you're on stage and there's a lot of people in front of you and you're about to give a speech or you're about to deliver a keynote speech or something like that. And all of a sudden, you know, you do feel perhaps goodness, am I qualified? Am I, can I do this?

And I think that once you sort of get through the first one or two and certainly on America's next top model, our shoots were so big. They were so over the top. There was so many moving parts that I would have often. several hundred people on set working around a shoot that I was doing. I might have five, six, seven, eight photo assistants just assisting me on the lighting. That's not to mention the camera crews and everybody else around the sound, the catering trucks, the dozens of models, dozens of hair and makeup and stylists and teams, and you name it.

So when I, once you get through a few of those, and trust me, on my first one, I was looking around me like, what's going on here, that, you know, all of a sudden, you realize, I can do this. I can do this. I can do this. And you sort of, you look at things, you're like, I've done this before. I've done it then. I'll do it again. And guess what? I'll do it even better. And I'll push the boundary. And I'll push myself a little bit more. And I'll push myself a little bit more. And you know, you get better at it and you change it. And sometimes it's not as good as the last time. You go, oh, but that tweak wasn't so good. I mean, tweak it this way. And it's very similar in a way to working out, too.

It's like, you know, you can do something you've, you know, I'm currently doing a lot of work on a thing called a hydro, this rowing machine that I've got and I love it. And I, you know, and it's, I'm very, very intimidated at the beginning thinking, goodness, how am I going to do certain exercises, certain sort of training sessions that we've been given because I'm rowing with a bunch of friends right now and it's really fun. We're all doing it together and competing against one another. But several of my pals in my team are actually Olympic level rowers, actually rode in the Olympics, got gold and silver medals and all the rest.

Oh, God. And one is the Olympic coach from a few years back. But, you know, I'm not up to that caliber, but I'm being pushed in these, you know, so it's this very kind of hardcore situation. So you do get nervous. But then all of a sudden you pop out the other side and you're like, you know what, I did that? And so now I can do the same thing again, but let me go a bit further.

Let me go try a little bit harder. and, you know, and actually, so, you know, to bring in the whoop straight away, but I haven't really loved looking at things like my heart rate and my recovery rate from those sorts of situations and learning to understand my body even better. And it plays into everything that we're talking about, actually. It really does. It just gives you an opportunity to kind of tune things, you know, which is really what you're talking about if you're on set or if, you know, you're working out. I mean, all of these, I think all of these principles kind of apply across disciplines, which is what makes it so fun. Are you on a community team with all of these rowers?

I am. I am. Oh, good. So you get to look at each other's data and compare, you know, sleep and all the other metrics that we track. So we have a, there's a, we call ourselves the OGs. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. And a bunch of us helped actually create, and open a gym that's in New York and Los Angeles called The Dog Pound. And that's how we originally all started working out together. We were all working out several years ago as a team at various gyms, at our homes. We're all buddies and eventually opened this gym called the Dog Pound in New York City and then another one in L.A.

And we've never sort of stopped as a group of friends doing our own little thing together. And this is a separate private thing that we're doing, which is essentially we've all got these rowing machines during the quarantine. We're like, okay, we can't go to the gym. What are we going to do? And we started to challenge one another. And with an end game of a sort of a 2K race after nine weeks of training, and we did the first session throughout the summer.

And every week, five days a week, there was different things to do, for example, yesterday I did 10 times 500 meters with a one-minute rest in between and, you know, you have to match your 2K pace to the, you know, for each 500 meters and try and maintain it. So, and this is all a build-up. Tomorrow I have five, sorry, six, five-minute races with a two-minute rest in between each one, and I've got to maintain my strokes per minute at 18 with my 2K pace, which is very difficult with the low strokes per minute.

So, but it's sort of like, so you're training all these different aspects. Then we have a one-hour race, and they're all different every day. And it's like the dog pound, when we first started it, it was just a small group of us. This is the second time round, and we've gone from, I think, the first time in the summer, it was only 13 guys in it. Now I think we have close to, like, 30, 40 people who have joined this second round. So these things are contagious. People love it.

So are you thinking, knowing you have to wake up and, like, really be on tomorrow? How do you think about your behaviors today? Is that something that you consider? It's a Friday night. you've got this big Saturday, you know, workout. Like, are you, are you gone out tonight? What's happening tonight? Well, you know, I have something to do every day. I mean, regardless of whether I'm working out or not, I've got to be, you know, certainly on most days. But I try to be careful no matter what. And it's, you know, it doesn't mean that I don't have a drink. I mean,

heck, I have a podcast called The Shaken and Sturge show. So, you know, I'm making cocktails at a regular basis, but it's, you know, but that's the whole point. It's not about stopping. It's about living, right? Living one's life. And moderation is a big part of it, but that doesn't mean you don't partake. You know, I feel, I do feel sorry for those who have to abstain completely or choose one thing over another. That just is not my personality and it's not the way luckily my body functions. So I'm able to sort of dabble in having a drink and things like that. And know, that's not an issue for me very much. I mean, obviously, if one drinks too much, it is,

but I try not to, and it's funny, you know, the whoop knows, it does. I mean, I really does. The day before last, I didn't have a drink, and I didn't actually have a drink last night either. I just didn't eat one, didn't want one. And my recovery was just off the charts. And I'm like, God, that's so annoying. I'm like, I don't feel any different.

I'm like, whoop, you're lying. I sort of took it off my hand and looked at it and like, is it broken? because I don't actually feel better, but it knows that I am. But guess what? I then did my race yesterday and I got a PR, I got a personal record, right? So the whoop was correct. And whether I was psychologically convinced that I was obviously going to do so much better

because the whoop told me I had recovered and was primed for exercise or whether I, you know, I seriously was, which clearly I was because I did it and it wasn't easy. Right. But it was, it's funny. You do start to learn. But I didn't realize just how much, you know, sleep I needed or didn't need or how much hydration I needed and, you know, the effects of alcohol or the effects of stress and all the different things that one does in one's life and how that all adds up.

When you look at your sleep, how much, you know, you think you slept, but how well did you sleep? And how does that translate into, you know, the following day? and, you know, your ability to be on and, of course, to exercise. But it's not just to exercise. It's, for me, it's more just my mental awareness. It's how astute can I be? And, you know, when I'm on a call and how many things can I think of?

Can I think laterally? Am I clear-minded and all of those elements? And fitness, for me, plays a large part of that. Because when I'm on form, when I feel fit, my mind is much clearer. And that's probably one of the biggest surprises when folks come on to the platform is that, you know, they're, you know, as you start to observe your data and start to observe your behaviors, you see these correlations that manifest that are actually quite counterintuitive at times. And I think that's where the data can be the most powerful, right? Because it just,

it gives you an insight that sometimes that you, you know, that you kind of know, yeah, if I drink a ton, then I'm going to wake up and be in a, and not in a great spot. And we kind of all know that. But to see the data, it can be kind of jarring. And, and I think that's why we see such powerful behavior modification on the platform, specifically as relates to alcohol, is because you wake up and you see just how much that actually influences you physiologically and, you know, therefore your ability to kind of adapt to the daily demands. But, you know, I think it's when, you know, when it might be a little bit counterintuitive where, you know, you don't really realize like how stress accumulation throughout the day actually is going to impact the quality

of your sleep. It's cool to kind of hear you piece all that together in a way that we hope our members will, right? Because, you know, it was built for all the, all the things that you're talking about. So it's, it's cool to kind of see that emerge. You don't get me wrong. You know, as far as, you know, when one has a drink, sometimes, you know, this is historically the case for me, I'll wake up. And if I do have a hangover of any sort whatsoever or felt like perhaps I've perhaps went a bit too far the night before the day before, you know, I'll actually punish myself and do incredibly well in the gym. So I'm like, I'll be like, okay, you're going to pay for that.

Barker. Yeah, yeah. You're going to go to the gym and you're going to sweat it out. And actually, I've oftentimes returned some of my best results ever with the hangover, which is really the worst thing you can tell people. But I'm just going to say it as a truth. There is an element of that in my DNA, at least. But, you know, there's no denying that if you can certainly listen to your body

and know when to say no, know when to say yes, and to realize, I mean, you know, I've recently started taking probiotics, for example, and it's funny, it was like my body just asks for them, and there are days that I don't take them, and then all of a sudden I'm like, I really want probiotics. And it's, and I don't have stomach aches or anything like that. It's just, I need to be balanced. And I have a plant-based diet anyway, so it's, but I, it's It's very interesting, just trying to really be in tune and listen, like, what do I want to eat? What do I want to do?

And, you know, not that I need a drink because it's five o'clock somewhere. It's like, no, actually, do I want to drink? No, I actually don't want to drink. I don't need a drink. I'm quite happy to having a glass of water. Great. Well, I won't have a drink, man. That's fine.

Because we're such creatures of habit and custom and tradition that oftentimes we'll just have a drink because it is drinking time or it's Friday night or it's this or it's that. But actually, you know, what I've often done recently is when that time comes, I'll say, actually, what I'll do is I'll go and work out. And I'll do something the opposite of sort of partying or something or having a drink. I'll go for a jog or I'll go take the dog for a run. You know, I'll do some work out myself. And that fills that same time period up with something far more productive. And it just changes it.

And you often find that as long as you're doing something, it's enough. Yeah, I think that awareness, technology can foster that. You know, I think some folks are scared of being so aware that it, you know, can make you anxious and there are that can happen. But I do think there is a huge opportunity for technology to just help you understand what it is that you need to focus on and actually how to be more in tune with your body to your exact point. You know, like you, you know, it just elevates your awareness.

It makes you more conscientious. It makes you, you know, think about how you're adapting or not adapting to certain things that you're doing in your life. And when you start to pay attention, then you start to actually give your body what it needs. And I think that's a really powerful point that you make, you know. I mean, there's so much that we can learn from you, Nigel. I am astounded by just the sheer diversity in your career. As I was kind of putting together this podcast and doing some research, I kind of knew the fashion photographer. and judge and your history and TV, you know, you've authored two books. Is that correct,

too? Yes, that's correct. You've authored two books. You're obviously a spokesperson. You have a podcast. You're a filmmaker. You have a furniture line, right? And a fragrance line? Correct. I mean, and you're a formal model. So you have just had this, like, unbelievably diverse career. How do you, I just would love to hear about just the process you go through for making decisions, right? Like, these are, you're doing a lot of different things. Many of these things overlap. You know, you talk about being incredible busy, incredibly busy. You're, you know, you have a family, you have a partner.

Like, you know, you have this really full life. Talk us through how you go about saying yes and saying no. Like, what does that decision process look like for you? Well, I don't say no very often is the truth. And that's in large part because I don't see the point in no very often. Most of the time I'm intrigued. I'm interested. In general, I'm fascinated with life itself.

I'm fascinated with everything that life has to offer. And I don't want to set limitations for what I can do or should be doing or what people think I can do or should be doing. And if you live life right, then hopefully, you know, I don't, I don't know, no to too many things, that you won't have any regrets when you look back. And I, you know, so there have been things in my life, for example, even at the beginning when it was sort of having an opportunity to do top model, I had never been on, really on television before at that point.

I was completely green to the whole situation. And it was something I had to learn from the ground up. And I watched myself as I was doing it and thought, oh, God, I'm not very good there. That didn't look very good. I didn't know what I was doing. But I learned. and I try to continuously improve. And I'm still doing all of those things with everything,

whether it's podcasting or book writing or anything else. But at the same time, for example, when I started my furniture, the sort of long story short there was I was originally working as the photographer and creative consultant and director for this company, Art Van, in the Midwest, who was one of the largest furniture. factories in the US. And I'd shot several campaigns for them and their catalogs and all the rest of it. And I was sitting down with Mr. Van himself and he was asking me about what my concept was for the new season and new furniture collections that were coming out in the fall and what I wanted

to do and if I had any big ideas. And I sort of said to him slightly cheekily, I said, well, what I was really like to do is my own furniture line. And he looked at me and he said, sorry, what? And I'm like, and he said, no, no, no, I'm talking about our furniture lines, the collections we have, what are you talking about? And I was like, I know, I said, but what I would really like to do is my own furniture line. And he said, what do you mean? And I said, almost a little irritated with me. Like, I was like sort of wasting time or not, like, hadn't done what I was meant to do, and show him a mood board and everything else I was going to shoot. And I said, well, you know, Cindy Crawford has a furniture line. She's a model. Kathy

Island has a furniture line. She's a model. I work with symmetry and dimension and lighting and texture and, you know, I photograph fabrics and I appreciate aesthetics and design. What doesn't qualify me but qualify Cindy Crawford, whose collection you hold in your stores? And he just looked at me. And he sort of said, we'll talk about this later. And then we went back to business. A year later, A year later, he called me. And by the way, I'm working for him all this time. And he said, do you remember that conversation we had where you said you wanted to do your own collection?

I said, yes. He said, well, we proposed it to the group and everybody wants to do it. And it was just the most extraordinary feeling. And I can tell you, when I sat in this room which we had created for the photo set in this old house, and I was sitting on my furniture, with my photographs hanging on the wall in this room

with two books in front of me, including my New York Times bestseller, and I'm like, what is happening right now? You know, I had to pinch myself. It was this sort of a little bit of a moment where I'm like, okay, I can do this, people. I can do this. And I've got to believe in myself, and here we are.

And it's sort of, that in itself, that sort of manifestation of thinking what you want, to do, putting it out to the universe, and then just, you know, going after it, bit by bit, inch by inch, you know, until you actually make it a reality. And by the way, it may not ever actually manifest, but something else will come along in the meantime, and you may go off at an angle and a tangent. But if you don't try, if you don't think outside the box, if you don't go for it, if you don't push that boundary, you're never actually going to, you know, really do anything.

And it's very easy to sit back and wait. but that's just again not in my it's not my way i guess i just wonder like all of that to me seems like it requires an incredible amount of of a focus and deep work and you know how do you balance from these different projects and kind of keep yourself on task how do you think about that how do you maintain your attention like what's the how do you organize yourself in a way that enables you to produce such quality. That's very easy for you to say, but I think it's, first of all, I'm, you know, to be honest, I'm not a one-man team, right?

So, a one-man band. I have great people who work for me and with me. Delegation is incredibly important. Having people you trust and love and care around you, who also trust and love and care for you simultaneously is very important. So I've had many people who have worked for me, who work for me. who worked for me, who have been with me for years. And I mean over 10 years plus, many of them, some even longer than that.

And my wife works with me side by side and has done for 25 years plus. This is actually our 26th year together and our 21st year of marriage. And there's an incredible sense of security in that and trust in that. and it makes you very powerful and have direction because the focus that you mentioned is there, and it's like a razor. And she is also very good at keeping me on point and reminding me of what I need to do.

And I have always tried to practice sort of compartmentalization. And whenever I'm doing something, at that moment, you have my full consciousness. You have my full attention. everything is about what I'm doing at that moment and I've always tried to sort of think that it's about being present in the moment and it is about quality not quantity

and so if you can put all your attention on what you're dealing with and not be sort of trying to talk to someone while looking over their shoulder or do something a project whilst thinking about something else and the concept of multitasking for me I get it, but at the same time, I'm sort of one for sort of saying, I'll do this right now and then I'll do that, and then I'll do that. I won't do three things at once.

And again, that's just the way I am. And some people multitask very well, but I'm a sort of compartmentalizer. And I'm like, I'm going to do this piece, this piece, this, but in each one, I'm 100% in. And I say that to people, it doesn't matter how much you pay me. It doesn't matter what I'm doing. If I say I'm doing it, you've got me 110%. And otherwise, I'm just not in at all. Yeah, I think, you know, in my role at Woop, I have an opportunity to work with many of the best performers in the world across, you know, various disciplines.

And I can tell you that I have yet to come across anyone who proclaims to be a good multitasker. So I do think there is something about focus and being able to direct your attention and your thoughts. and success. So I think there is a linear relationship there that we can all, so take away. It's not multitask, focus. For those of us on the outside, I think our perception is that, you know, the industry that you are in is, you know, really competitive and a bit ruthless. Is that an accurate characterization or is that just kind of what we think we see on TV and what we think we read? I mean, to be honest, I think it's even, it's harder than what anyone imagines to honest, I think that, you know, that we especially, look, and again, it's always different for

everybody. And even when, if you look at a famous actor or a new star that you've never heard of, that's all of a sudden the star of a new movie or what have you, oftentimes when you look at their background and their history, you'll find out that they are sort of the son of some famous actor or director or they are sort of Hollywood royalty type of situation. And it's not that unbelievable that they made it. But in the fashion industry, it's a little different. People really do sort of go from rags to riches. It's almost as if you either hit or you don't hit. And so I think that that's the hard part is that we all know that there are sort of a finite number of stores on the high street and big brands. And certainly when it comes to designer

labels, it's an incredibly expensive thing to get into and start doing. So, the amount of risk doing it and you think of all the students going into it and trying to make it and all the rest of it, there's only so many positions at the top. And as far as photographers go, there's very few positions at the top. So my thing, my aim was never to be just, say, and I say just, I don't mean it is just to say be condescending and suggest that being just a photographer isn't enough. But it was more I didn't think that I could fulfill what I wanted in life from photography because I was concerned that there probably wasn't going to be enough.

of just one job for me. I remember seeing and learning myself from a couple of photographers. One guy called Peter Arnell, who's an advertising photographer, and another guy was the guy called Fabrizio Ferry, Italian photographer. And Peter Arnell created his own marketing and advertising agency, and, you know, one of the things he did was by the billboard space up and down Houston Street in New York City. and if anyone wanted to advertise there, they had to use his ad agency.

And then he was the photographer who shot it all. So he created work for himself just by thinking outside of the box. Meanwhile, for Bitsio Ferry started opening photo studios all around the world called Industria. And he even started his own clothing line and he ended up with his own airline even. But these are people who started to think of all sorts of. of other things within the industry and the business that they could be a part of, they could put their name on. And I sort of watched them and learned from them from afar and from close up and realized

that you really had to think outside the box and you couldn't sit and wait for someone to like what you were doing. You had to make it happen, which is the reason why when America's next top model came around, there was actually an element of a risk for me to do it. But I also thought to myself, this was a very unique moment. There was no social media at the time. Reality television was relatively new. This was the first fashion reality television show of any success.

And I joined after season one in season two. And I thought, how else is a young Englishman going to get himself become a household name, say, in the United States, from taking some pictures, hoping that I get, and who will learn my name, even if I become. a successful photographer, will they know my name? How will I become that household name? And I thought, well, perhaps television, and if it's a prime time show, people will hear my name, and they will see my work, and we'll be able to put that together. And then we'll be able to do interesting work on top of that and do different things. And that was really my aim very early on was to try and cement that. Nigel, I don't think people actually appreciate the fact that, you know, when you joined America's top model, there were very few reality TV shows, right? And that actually,

while it sounds like, oh, yeah, I'm going to be on TV, everything's going to be great. That was actually a risk. No, it was 100% a risk. In fact, several people, including my agent and various other people, told me not to do it. They said that, you know, oh, goodness me, you can't do that. That's sort of, you know, commercial and cheesy. It's one thing to do it sort of once or twice or to be a guest here and there, but to go on full time, you know, people won't work with you. And they'll think you've sold out. They'll, you know, you'll be a laughing stock and all of these sorts of things. And I did sort of, you know, think about it for some time. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, like, well, that is true, but, you know, that could happen. I said, but at the same

time, I really did like what Tyra was doing. I liked the concept of opening up the fashion industry to the world and explaining to them what it was about. And the fashion industry didn't like that. They didn't like the fact that this exclusive club was being showcased and opened up and how we did it and what we did and what it could look like. And they felt, I think, they felt like it was an intrusion. They felt humiliated, perhaps. They even felt that it was a mockery slightly where we might joke about it.

And whereas people take themselves incredibly seriously, you know, the reality is it often is a bit like Zoolander. I mean, the fashion industry. And people, you know, it's a bit over the top. And people, you know, sort of all of a sudden are talking about fashion as if they're talking about the next heart surgery or something. And, you know, you sort of have to have a sort of a check of oneself at that moment. And, you know, I sort of thought to myself, I could feel, for whatever reason, the world was changing. And if nothing else, you know, that unless you actually go out on a limb, if you don't take a risk, if you don't trust your intuition, if you don't listen to your body and your mind and the world and try and be at one with the zeitgeist of what is going on at that moment in time and plugged in, then you're not really there and you're not going to be able to really make a difference. and I just could feel it was like a train coming from a far away.

The ground was rumbling. I could feel that whatever was happening, the status quo was about to change, and it was no longer, this was no longer going to be acceptable, and people were going to want things differently than they had in the past, and I can't, it's hard to put your finger on it, and it sounds a bit of the top even when I described it like that, but look what happened. You know, top model went from being a show on UPN, sort of cult show, the small following to being the number one show on prime time in the United States on a Wednesday night, 8 o'clock, we syndicated and had over 100 million people watching the

show on a weekly basis worldwide in over 100 countries. And, you know, we became the number one show sold out of the United States beating out Baywatch and Sesame Street, for goodness six, which is quite something in its time. You bring up kind of process. I mean, one of my, you know, memories of the show is, you know, just the kind of visceral reaction I would get, you know, watching people deal with criticism and rejection, like really intimate feedback about their person. And, you know, I guess I, you know, having watched so many people go through rejection, what have

you kind of learn from that. I find that, you know, I was an elite level athlete, so lots of criticism, you know, you don't make teams, like you get rejected a lot. So I, I can relate to it on, on some level, but I guess just the volume of folks that you've been around who have had to absorb, you know, the criticism and absorb, you know, these, these levels of rejection. You know, what's your takeaway from all that? Well, I think that, you know, in many ways society has a, there's always sort of negative connotations to the words criticism. And, you know, to the point that one needs to have the sort of the words constructive criticism. Totally. Whereas criticism doesn't necessarily mean anything bad. We are all overly sensitive a lot of the time anyway to hearing anything

being discussed about how we performed, our form, the way we are, the way we do anything. that we immediately feel awkward, and that goes back to the sort of confidence issue. And, you know, and understanding that, you know, perhaps if someone gives you some advice or a critique or criticism, that one may learn from it. And also to realize, too, that it's also just that person's opinion. And it doesn't always mean that they are wrong or right. right so you have to sort of take it and absorb it and learn from it and realize so somebody might say it's too big somebody may say it's too small they say it's too thin it's too dark it's too small it's

it's do this it's to that it's it's it all of these things ultimately in the end of the day there's a sort of element of the sort of emperor's clothing about it all it's it's there's there isn't really rarely any wrong or right in my opinion There is just the way you do it. There's just the way you wear it. There's just the way you say it. There's just the way you live it. If you have that confidence and that strength to know that you're not doing anything wrong

by walking that way, by talking that way, by dressing that way, that it's just you, then all of a sudden it's actually probably going to be in fashion. It's probably going to be the next greatest thing. It's, it's, people often say, oh, it's like, Genesee qua, I don't know what it is. I know not what that is. And it's a, it is a sort of almost a mystical kind of thing, but it's, it really isn't, though. It's a sort of, you know, I see it, for example, in my daughter, who is incredibly confident and will do crazy things with her hair and silly things with makeup or she'll just say something

crazy or do something, but she says it with such pizzazz and confidence. and she knows that she's loved and she's surrounded by people who love her and care for her and that that is incredibly powerful in her and she will just walk into a room and talk to anybody and everybody and ever since she was a small girl, she'd be girls to walk onto an elevator and look at an adult woman and say, oh, God, I love the color of your lipstick.

What color is that? It suits you so well and totally disarm an adult, you know, with a comment that it would come right out of left field and she's noticing that and she'll say something else to somebody else And it's just those, that kind of, you know, sort of individual, that confidence, it's, you know, it's not that she's perfect, but she's the sum of her imperfections. And all of that, when it comes together, makes her an incredibly powerful individual. And, you know, that is something which I always hope people get from those things.

And, you know, you watch on shows like Top Model where it isn't always the winner who wins. And oftentimes, people who got knocked out earlier are the ones who are the ones who are the ultimate winners because they have whatever it is inside of them to not necessarily take it to heart, but to learn, to grow, and to not give up. And you'll see them rise to the top. It's just perhaps, you know, the top is, they're going to reach that top at another point in time, not perhaps that moment right there, but also what is the top? You know, there are so many versions of where you're headed. And it's really up to you or where you want to be. What was the inspiration for the beauty equation? Because a lot of what you're saying,

the kind of underlying theme in that book is all about inner beauty and how that manifests on the outside and in your personality. And if you can just kind of give us just the inspiration for that book and just an explanation on kind of, you know, the name, like the whole process. That book, my first book, you know, which came out in 2010, I think now, it was really all about the fact that from what I'd witnessed, from what I'd seen in the world, how beauty had very, very little to do with the way you looked physically and had so much more to do with all these other inner beauty attributes, you know, like your chemistry,

like your sensitive humor, like your personality. And we used to get laughed at on top model because we would talk about personality so much. But when people often say to you, how come this person became a supermodel? Why did that person become a top model? Or why is she even a model at all? I don't think she's pretty.

Or I don't think she's this. Or I don't think she's the best. There are other people who are as good as. And the fact of the matter is, that's because you're looking at the wrapper. You're looking at the package. You're looking at the outside, the cover of the book. But we're so much more than the cover of the book. We're about the contents of the book.

Otherwise, you put the book down after you've read the first few pages. And so it's about, you know, exposing the inside of the book first, or at least, you know, showing who you are and the person that you are. And all of a sudden, you know, when you find someone attractive, if you think someone is sexy, it's not just because of what they're wearing or what they, you know, maybe, you know, okay, whatever, they may have great skin or they may have beautiful hair, they may have whatever it might be. But it's, that's not sexy. That's just the way they look. Sex appeal is the way they move. It's the way they sound. It's the way they shimmy across the room.

It's the way they look at you. It's the glint in their eyes. It's the intelligence. It's the wisdom. It's the way they, what they say to you, how they say it. It's their charm. It's their grace. It's their, you know, their humility.

It's all of those things that actually, if you think about it, that's what you fall in love with. Not the look, the looks will fade, they will change. Other aspects will grow and become stronger and more brilliant. And when I say brilliant, I mean like a diamond, you know. And I think that that is, that's essentially what the beauty equation was about. And ironically, that book was all about taking photographs of yourself. It was about taking selfies.

And that was way before selfie was even a thing. And so it was a rather funny kind of sort of thing. and this was before any kind of Facebook or anything else really when it came out. It was right at that moment when all those things were just beginning. Nigel, did you invent the selfie? You know what? I might have done by accident, but I self-portrait, but I didn't invent. A moment right now about the internet, yeah.

How crazy is that? But the book you to take portraits of yourself, thinking and doing different things, and for you to look upon yourself in those pictures and using a form of phototherapy, to sort of judge yourself, to be the judge of how you felt you looked. Did you think you look better? Do you? Do you think you look happier? Do you?

And then to sort of realize, you know, you are your best self when you are happiest. Whatever makes you happy, this isn't to tell you that it's right or wrong. There was nothing in the book that says that wearing a ton of makeup is good, but neither does it say that wearing a ton of makeup is bad. if you are a person that wishes to look covered in makeup and go out there and you rock it, then my all means, you own it and you do that every day. But do not think that because that's what other people are doing, that you need to do that too, because that might not be you. So you need to define you.

And that's what that book was about. I love that. That was so passionately said and well said. There's kind of this balance, right? Like I think, especially in art, you know, I have the benefit of, you know, I'm not an artist. right? And I feel like, you know, there's a performative element about being an artist that can be scary, right? Because you're putting yourself out into the world. And, you know, it's, I think what you kind of describe is this, if you've done the interior work to really be comfortable with who you are

and you embrace that, like you're able to share parts of yourself that, you know, if you had that self-consciousness and you, and you, you know, didn't do that interior, interior work to really be comfortable. Like, you can't possibly share with the world, like, all the great aspects of yourself, you know, the personality, everything that you describe. So I feel like, you know, at the core, it is probably gaining that, that comfort level with, with what's happening inside. And to your point about your daughter, you know, surrounding yourself with, with folks who really love and you trust and that care for you and have your best interest at heart, I mean, all of those things kind of set you up to really bring, you know, to kind of step out to the world with

a level of persuasion that enables you to kind of engage and be the most authentic version of yourself. 100%. 100%. I mean, you know, there's, you can't always rely on the world at large to embrace everything that you're doing. And, you know, I tell young photographers and young creatives all the time that the hardest thing in the world, and I understand that they want my approval or they want someone's, the world's approval, and we live in a world of, you know, did you like my picture? Did you like my post? And how many followers do I have? And how many likes did I get? And, you know, and all of that kind of thing. And somehow, if someone likes something

that we do, that, you know, with a little heart emoji or whatever it might be, that we feel like we've accomplished something, but ultimately, you know, an artist doesn't, you know, Van Gogh doesn't paint the sunflowers and turn around and say to someone, do you think that's finished now? Should I put another petal on that? You know, he's, I'm done. Like, this is my painting. It's finished. And unfortunately, like Van Gogh, you know, he was not a success in his lifetime.

And that's not to say that that's the case of old artists. There were lots of artists who were very successful in his time. But he's now considered, for example, to be one of the most successful, one of the most accomplished at least, artists in history. But he was perhaps just before his time or just didn't have the ability to showcase his work. But it never stopped him from doing what he did. And I think I have to say to artists all the time, if you're looking for appreciation from the world and that's why you're working, you're probably working for the wrong reasons or you're

not going to find success where you expect it. You have to be your own judge. You have to be the one who loves what you do. And it's not about conceit. It's not about thinking you're better than other people. It's simply about loving what you do. You're not better, but you love what you do. And that is the most important thing.

The fact that you have done your best work is all that matters. And that's the thing. And it's not easy to get that through to a lot of people, and it's not easy for me. I mean, it's a constant mantra. that you have to tell yourself, that you've done your best, and this is what I've achieved, and people will knock you, and they'll say nasty things, but they will also love you. But, again, you have to somehow take both sides and not be over, you know, don't think too much when people say you're fantastic, but don't think too much from people tell you that you're not

fantastic. You have to believe and know who you are, and that is this constant quest of being one with oneself, and, of course, is probably the meaning of life at the end of the day. How can people find you? What's the best, you know, I know you've got an amazing website. That's super cool. You've got your podcast. You know, where do you want people to go to kind of follow your work?

Well, really, as you mentioned, we do have a lot of places. My website is Nigelbarker.tv where you can probably connect with all the things that we do. And if you are a social media person, I'm pretty easy to find because I just go by my name. Look me up, Nigel Barker. you will find me on most platforms. And, you know, but we, as I mentioned, obviously on the website, we connect with people, we connect with a lot of the other creatives, and we are always looking for the next fun, both partnership and collaboration and just fun, interesting project.

So I'm always encouraging people, if they have an idea, to knock on my door and let's see if we can't make it a reality. I love that. That's a nice open door for many. Hopefully they take you off on that. Well, thank you for sharing, just for being so generous with your time and your insights. This was just such a fun conversation and I think a lot of just incredibly powerful nuggets of wisdom of, you know, how to think about your near body and how to think about your behaviors and

relationships and building businesses and making choices. I mean, you covered so much. So really appreciate it. Fantastic. Well, I appreciate it very much. Thanks for having me on. And I am enjoying very much my whoop. And my son has one as well.

and he loves it. Thank you to Nigel for coming on the WOOP podcast. A quick reminder, you can use the code Will Ahmed, W-I-L-L-A-H-M-E-D, to get 15% off your W-W-P membership. You can follow us on social at W-W-P at Will-A-Mad. Stay healthy, folks. Stay in the green. Thank you.