Why Won't You Date Me? with Nicole Byer - Bringing Down Your Walls (w/ Penn Badgley)

Episode Date: July 8, 2022

Oh my god, he's here. Penn Badgley (You, Gossip Girl, host of Podcrushed) joins Nicole to discuss why people are infatuated by his serial killing character, why love is not depicted accurately in media, bringing down your walls to connect with people, and the existential insecurities he had when dating. Black Lives Matter. Click here for an updated list of over 100 different things you can do to support racial justice.   Follow Nicole Byer: Tour Dates: linktr.ee/nicolebyerwastakenTwitter: @nicolebyerInstagram: @nicolebyerMerch: podswag.com/datemeNicole's book: indiebound.org/book/9781524850746

Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Please tell me why! Oh baby, welcome to another episode of Why Won't You Date Me, a podcast where me, Nicole Byer, tries to figure out how I'm still single, even though you could push me off a cliff and say, See you later, bitch. You're flying.

My guest today is an actor from Gossip Girl and the hit Netflix series, which is my absolute favorite show, You. He hosts a new podcast called Podcrushed, where he reads your middle school stories. I am so excited. Oh, I'm so excited to introduce you to Penn Badgley. excited to introduce you to Penn Badgley! What a welcome. That's really amazing. I just want to listen to you now. Really? Now that I'm a host of a podcast, which I'm not here just to shamelessly plug,

I'm really excited to be on the show, but I appreciate what it is to host. And, you know, I don't want to scare off would-be listeners. I'm not used to hosting yet. And listening to you now, I'm just like, damn, she's, you've got it. You know, you've really got it. Thank you. I appreciate it. I just have a lot of energy and I'm constantly exhausted. You know, that might be an answer to the question.

No, I'm just kidding. Nicole, you're single because you're always sleeping. You're just so tired. And if you're awake, you're always screaming. Penn, boring question. Your name, Penn, is this your government name? A name you have chosen? It is all of these things.

I've chosen it over time. It's my government name. It's also such a ready nickname that I think people struggle to come up with something new. It's just my name. It's from a tennis ball. That is a true story. My dad was bouncing a pen tennis ball. My mom said something along the lines of, I think he's about the size of that tennis ball right now. They agreed on my name. The joke is that's the only thing they did ever agree on. joke is that's uh the only thing they did ever agree on you know so they they have similar troubles as you i think you know fair i mean that's funny he's like the size of a tennis ball

well let's name him after the tennis ball i like it yeah yeah i mean it's simple it's simple it's simple it's fun i wish my name was like like my mom was eating a strawberry and was like, I think she's the size of a strawberry. Call her strawberry. Strawberry buyer. Oh, I wish that was my name. Yeah. Oh, well.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know why it was. Yeah. It's funny because my dad is not that much of a tennis player. I mean, I suppose then maybe, but it makes it sound like we're a different kind of family, to be honest. A very active family.

Yeah, yeah. It's not really the case. Just at these courts. Penn, I have a query. So you, was this an audition or was this an offer? How did you come into your life? Yeah, right. this an audition or was this an offer how did you come into your life yeah right um it it it was uh it was a little bit of both in the sense that they pursued me um and but it wasn't a straight

up offer i did have like a i did have a soft read because i have you know something along the lines of tenure at warner brothers uh yeah i read with with Greg and Sarah, the co-creators. And they let me know in a few hours after they, you know, they made the offer and they were persistent beforehand as well. And so, you know, it was an interesting thing where I chose to do it more out of the conversations I had with them than, than, than, than what the material itself was screaming at me. Because the material was screaming at me and it was screaming so loudly and intensely that I wasn't, I was like, I don't know if I want to play this guy for five years and cut to me five years later.

I mean, I love Joe, which is an insane thing to say out loud. He murders. No, but I mean, look, you're not alone. And it's definitely a thing. It's definitely a thing. Okay, I think I can explain the thing. So like, he murders, but then he's like, but I did it out of like love, right?

And then I'm like, he did do it out of love. That's nice. Yeah, it is. I mean, on one level, yeah, I think on one level yeah i think it's that i think it's that he actually mimics and models and seems to be the uh image of love that we're accustomed to seeing but we're we're only accustomed to seeing that in in movies and tv and i mean i actually think we i don't know i mean we live in such a media-saturated age. It's like the things we see on TV and movies,

it's hard to not fantasize about your own life in so many moments. Like, this could be better if it was like the things that I was seeing, you know what I mean? So he's a representation, I guess. But then, of course, you encounter him in real life. And I don't know. Well, he's not a real character.

So I'm not really worried about that one. Here's a question. The choice of Joe, I will stop talking about you in a second. I promise. Eventually, it's fine. Hey, listen, we got an hour. The choice to have Joe wear a baseball cap as a disguise. Whose choice was that?

Whose choice was that? It's very funny to me. You know, that's a good question i think it must be from the books although i'm not sure i'm not sure because i mean so much of the dna of the show not all of it but but much of it comes from the books i don't recall if that is not in the book uh it wouldn't be so iconic in the book because the book is just such a different experience. Uh, so whatever, whatever, if it, if it was in the book, I mean the choice to the choice to have me wear it as frequently as I do. And, you know, look, the truth is when

you're shooting something, uh, when you're filming something, you just have to get, it's, I don't know. I mean, it's just things, things are going to look, I find myself often when we're filming a scene, I, it, I am comically close to the people I am stalking and I, and, and I look comically conspicuous in a, in like a windbreaker and a hat. Yeah. You know? It's really funny to me.

It's one of the things I like the most because I'm like, in real life, Joe would be caught so quickly because Joe's not very good at hiding. No, yeah. Evidently, he's not. No, it's, yeah, yeah. Although, you know, I still find myself, there's a version of of me living my life where where i go very unnoticed and and i and i even find it hard to speak up for myself

and so i find that i can kind of disappear a little bit like that and so you know it is it's it's like it's like it can seem silly but i don. I mean, I think if you wanted, I think if I, I'm not trying to encourage people to try, but I do think that if you wanted to, I do think if you really felt compelled to follow someone and you just had the strange lapse of, well, conscience, but also like like i don't know insecurity you just kind of go for it and then you know in a big city you could probably find that you follow somebody

for a while you say that but i'm a true cartoon if the person i was following me turned around i'd be like ah look around i'm like not me i wasn I wasn't. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, we're all, we're all, we're all, we're all different. Um, here's another question. So Joe has like an internal monologue. I have an internal monologue. Do you pen have an internal monologue? Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, definitely. I, I think the point is like, we all have some version of an internal monologue. Some people don't. Who's do we want to hear though? You know, because you really think people don't? I mean,

isn't, what is thinking then? What is thinking? I asked my old roommate, I was like, when you go to the bathroom, does your brain go, hmm, I better go to the bathroom and I should do it now. Because if I wait, that won't be good. He was like, no, I just go to the bathroom and I feel like I have to go to the bathroom. I was like, you don't like think about it first and like oh I see what you mean so so so so you mean internal internal monologue like uh like uh like overthinking everything and wondering about the consequences of like whether I do it right now or five minutes from now oh man yeah no I have that a lot of, but I think I noticed that that's when I've either had too much caffeine or I'm hungry or I'm tired.

What is it? Halt. Hungry. Angry. Late. Tired. What's the, is that what it is? That comes from.

I didn't even know there was an acronym for it. It's basically like stop. Try. Stop. If you're coming to an argument, basically think it's like it's like halt stop if you're hungry angry what is the l oh okay so mars my producer hungry angry lonely tired lonely tired so that describes uh what percentage of the human population at any given point in time wow yeah mine is probably tired i'm tired Yeah. I mean, if we have to record

this podcast on the weekends, yeah, we're, we're both tired. Let's be real. We know why we know why. Um, okay. Penn, I have a question. When did you start acting professionally? Actually, when I was 12, which is, which has to do with why I'm interested in this period of life, which is what my podcast is about. Uh, pod crushed, uh, available on all platforms. What date does it come out? Um, it's, it's, it's already out. You can listen to it. Um, yeah, it's been out for like a month or so. Uh, we, we, we can, we can, we can get to that or I can talk about it now by talking about when i started acting um i mean i was so i was 12 when i moved to la and became

professional and uh i think if you ask anybody what was going on in your life when you were 12 that's usually it makes you stop and think so so i'll ask you that in a moment i'll try to answer a little bit more of your question. So I started doing theater when I was about like eight or nine because my family had moved from the east to the west coast, from Virginia to Washington State, very different places. We lived kind of in the middle of nowhere and I wasn't enrolled in a school for the first several months because it was the the end of that school year going into summer so i had no social outlet and no neighbors really like our driveway was two tracks up the mountain really like that kind of vibe and uh and actually probably part of it i my cat who i loved dearly uh disappeared after three days having moved there was probably probably killed by coyotes that's what we always figured um uh certainly not alive now we know that much

be very old yeah that would be a mystical cat um and and and i was just i was lonely i was one of the things. I was lonely. And I think my mom out of guilt just was like really racking her brain trying to think of things for me to do. And I don't remember this part so well, but as she tells it, that she saw an ad in the paper. That must have been what it was because I mean, I wasn't, how else would we have known about anything? It was an ad to audition for the Music Man for like a local community theater. It was actually in a church playhouse, like 50 miles away from where we lived. I went and auditioned, got it.

And that opening night, I, you know, I mean, I really do remember just the feeling and wanting to do it for the rest of my life. And, you know, a lot of it, I don't think is even, it's performing, sure, but it's community. It's, it's, it's the experience. I mean, you know what it's like when you're working on a job, you, the whole crew, cast and crew, everybody is just, or, you know, you can have your own feelings about it, but you are all there for a common goal. You know, you are all there working towards something. And, and you actually, especially when I was that age doing, doing community theater, you really get all types, like all types, all, all walks of life, all ages, all backgrounds. So, um, I just liked that, you know, it wasn't like just, it wasn't just hanging out with a bunch of other 12 year olds cause we're in the same grade or whatever you know and frankly from that point on i did not have much of an academic uh a consistent academic path i tested out early and i was working full-time by the time i was 15 so so you know so really that that period of 12 to 15 was like transitioning into by the time i was 15 that was the first time i was like a lead on a show, um, and for Warner brothers actually. And you know, that's what I do now. And so that's, uh, that's how it all started.

That's nice. It's nice that you like found it early and then you were like, yeah, I'll keep doing this. This is good. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things about it because again, then the thing that the reason I think about this period of life, one of the reasons I think about this time in life, like around about 11 to 15 you know what we in america call middle school is like this is a formative period of life and for me i had some formative experiences that were just i mean you know hollywood is hollywood and uh i was technically a child actor and yeah it's just you know it's not not the best of environments so so while i now can appreciate being very in some ways like a veteran you know like for certainly for my age

um been doing it for what i guess i've been professional for like 23 years that i can appreciate that and you're right there's something very nice about that there's something very streamlined and focused about it. I've always been focusing on this craft as long as I can remember. And that is cool, you know? And regardless of talent, I have a certain proficiency. You know what I mean? Whereas just like being on a set, being in front of a camera, doing what I do,

especially for Joe. I mean, Joe, I stand in front of a camera and silently emote. So just all the time. So much. So often I go to work. I do not have any lines. I don't have any lines there. Well, that means because I'm proficient is because I've been doing this for so long, you know, like it's just, it's just standing in front of a camera, standing in front of a camera and, and, and, and somehow like opening up, like I know what it means. In fact, if the camera isn't rolling, like I can't rehearse the same, you know? And I think it's probably a difference between, between television and, and theater or like film and television and theater. There's just something like, I can't rehearse the same as when, well, you know, I mean, look, if you were to do like a, I don't know, if you were to just kind of sketch out what you're going to do when you introduce something on one of your shows, you know, it's not the same as when you're hitting record.

It's just not the same. You are correct. You know, and so I have that to possibly an extreme degree. to possibly an extreme degree. I mean, especially on a show where I have no lines most of the time, I mean, my, uh, in rehearsal, I almost have to, um, that's my time to, to, to, to sort of just make jokes the entire time. That's kind of what I do. And I, and, and, you know sometimes i think there i i hope that i'm respectful to the other actors and know know the line like no not you know um and when we really need to rehearse i i want us to rehearse it's just that in television you don't have that

much time anyway but but the point is is that i'm just very used to like just i know what it is to stand in front of a camera and somehow like really try to open up emotionally. And then, and then, and then the, the joke is, I think actually for many actors is that it's like, you can become far better at doing that in front of a camera than you can in front of another human being. And I, and I don't try to live my life that way, but real emotional health is, I mean, that's the chimera. That's the sort of holy grail we're all looking for, right? And so that actually, I honestly want to know, like, how serious is the premise of your show? Because I said a few things early on that I hope you didn't take the wrong way. I'm making a joke

based on your joke, but like,'s uh the premise of this show truly just yeah trying to figure out why i'm still single and i mean one of the reasons is i am not good at opening up to people when i'm not working because people are like you're very vulnerable on your podcast but i went on a couple of dates with this guy and at one point he i think it was like three or four he looked at me and he was like i don't really actually know anything about you i know that you're good at joking i know that you're really funny but like how did you grow up and i was like what why do you want to know this he's like because i want to get to know you and i was like oh okay and in that moment I was like, oh, okay. And in that moment, I was like, oh, okay.

I guess I got to like bring down walls if I do want to be with someone because when you date somebody, hopefully it's not just a surface relationship. It's a deeper connection. Of course, yeah, yeah. And I have a real problem with letting people in because then I'm like, what if they go away?

So then there's like abandonment issues. So like, I kind of know why she's single, but you know, it's fun to make it funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, of course we all, yeah, we all, I think it's interesting with stuff like that because we often know you're able, often you're able to name what's wrong but that doesn't mean you can change it yes and that's that's a profound thing you know what i mean that's

like that is i am interested in that and that is kind of why you know i guess podcasts are places where people can a little bit more informally explore the things they're interested in. And I, and I guess a lot of you at the end of the day, what we care about most are relationships, you know? I mean, and so I'm just,

do you think, do you think, I mean, if when we talk about bringing down walls, that's a phrase that people use a lot. Do you, I mean, I guess it's kind of,

it feels a little bit like a dumb question to say like, well, why do they come up? When do they come up? But I do think that it's, I have this kind of theory along with my co-hosts of our show that it's, there's certain formative things that start happening when you're around about 12, 12, you know and it's like if the wall was built before then that is a time where you could work on not putting any more bricks on the wall and maybe the rest of your life you can spend time taking down a shorter wall a smaller wall you know or it's a time where the world can start telling you things that you really have to uh buy and embody and then you start building up the walls like even more you know what i mean does that make sense it does make sense and i would say that probably in middle school that's when i started like building walls i went to i lived in like an all-white town

my middle school i think it was just me and my sister maybe there was four other black kids and I was zitty and chubby and I was fat and just truly not at my best. Um, so I think I just didn't want to be rejected. So, or when I was rejected, my feelings would get hurt. So then I'd be like, well, then I'm not going to try and I'll just be funny. And maybe that's how I'll find somebody. So then I like worked on loving myself. And like I do love myself. But then the thought of somebody loving me is still. That feels improbable.

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean. Well, do you feel like. Do you feel when you say love? Do you think of love as being unconditional? In a perfect world, I think love is unconditional. But I think in practice and in reality, it is conditional.

Because you can't be an asshole and still expect somebody to love you. You can't keep hurting someone's feelings or pushing their boundaries and then expect them to love you it's like you kind of have to what is it a compromise and in compromise i think love can grow i think but again i don't know no i think so that's no i think no i think that's true i think that's true. I think that's true. I mean, I don't know. Look, I, you know, I've been married for five years, which is, I don't know. I don't know what that is. But I would say that my wife and I have, we've been together for eight years. And there's, you know, I think, I mean, what it really takes to be in a relationship past a few years. Cause that's what, you know, I mean, I feel like in my twenties, my teens and twenties, it was just a, it was just a couple of really meaningful relationships that lasted for a couple of years. And then, and then it was like, and I don't think I ever knew anybody who had something going beyond that, save for people who seemed, who seemed like maybe they were kind of stuck in something or, or then they did,

they would get married. And frankly, when I was in my twenties, that just seemed kind of crazy. Um, but yeah, I, you know, I do think a huge part, so there's the personal stuff. Sure. And I don't know, that's what it is, but I think a huge part of people struggling in relationships, whether it's struggling to be in one or struggling to stay in one or struggling to stay in one or struggling to get out of one that you should be out of or whatever it is like is like we honestly have seen so many freaking love stories and heard so many love songs that are all about courtship basically slash you know the moment up until you really have to do, quote unquote, the work, you know, and then past that, all of our stories about breaking up. And it's bittersweet. And it's like,

kind of, it feels good. You know, it's like, think of, think of all the, think of all the movies and the stories that we've seen, which is like, ah, love exists. Love is the best feeling in the world. It's like, well, actually, all we have is just like the sort of ramp up and the breakdown. We don't ever really see a story about the thing itself. Yeah, like what it takes to keep a relationship together. That is interesting because it's like chasing someone is like

you have euphoria because you're like lots of dopamines being expelled. And you're like, will I get them? Will they reject me? Will we come together? You get together, you're like lots of dopamines being expelled and you're like will i get them will they reject me will we come together you get together you have like a honeymoon phase where you're happy for a while and then it's like yeah then we cut to the breakup where it's like rage hate sadness it's just like the height of emotions and then extreme emotions yeah i guess maybe it's because the middle is just like work well it's not an easy story to tell i think yeah and it and it lasts longer actually which is ironically what we want but it's not yeah i mean because i've spent as i said earlier like you know most of my conscious

mature life like before i was an adult but most of my you mature life, like before I was an adult, but most of my, you know, basically since middle school, I've been an actor playing like people in a relationship, basically, you know, I mean, honestly, so I've thought about this a lot, you know, like to just thought about how, how it is that all of our love stories these days do or don't have an influence on us. And I, I mean, you know, some could accuse me of overthinking. Okay, fine, fine. But, uh, but I, I think it's there. I think it's like, there's a, there's a role that, uh, that all this stuff that we watch us plays and it's, um, I don't know. I mean mean because i spend so much time doing it i have to

you know i mean i i guess i take it seriously and i really want to see you know what i like about my show you is that you kind of know the whole time that it's not trying to say that any of this is what you should be pursuing but ironically it feels a lot like all the things that you see in other shows. It feels like you should be pursuing. It's like, it's like, it's like, but just the asterisk like, oh, but he's a murderer and this is actually all toxic. He killed and it's not great. Real quick, we got to take a break. gotta take a break when you date or when you were dating did you ever find that since you're an actor and since like you're pretty well known that people thought that maybe you

would be different has anyone ever articulated that to you? Like, oh, you're way different than I thought you would be. I have had people articulate that to me, which I think has to end up being the case, no matter who you are. Nobody's who you think they are. I think Madonna's exactly who I think she is. Okay, so every exception proves a rule. okay so every exception proves the rule um uh i well to be fair i you know i didn't i've i've scarcely dated in my life i'm not gonna lie to you here and i know that sounds a bit maybe absurd but i i have i'm trying to think so when was a teenager, I had one really long relationship from like 15 to 19.

Oh, okay. And then nothing until the next significant relationship, which was my early 20s. Then basically I just had three relationships in my 20s that were very meaningful and the third one was the person i married and and to be honest i've had no i've been on i think you could you could you could call i've been on maybe two dates and i'm not i'm really not exaggerating here i yeah i i never engaged casually the way uh you know, so many people do or think they need to and would imagine a person in my position would. I find, I mean, look, actually the premise that you're exploring and joking about and so many people are grappling with, like dating culture, I find dating culture

to be really reductive. It always made me so anxious and so insecure and then you know i'm so so but to get to your actual question when i uh let's see when i was 23 ish 24 ish i had probably like a date with a person and she clearly knew, I mean, knew who I was and stuff, but you know, and we like, we, I think we, we only even met up to hang out in any capacity, like three or four times, maybe five. maybe five and you know in that we weren't able to go that deep uh i just always found it so awkward so incredibly awkward and being famous did add to that because all like a you know every insecurity that someone has is just magnified by fame frankly i mean you know you have your moments where you're able to your ego will have its moments where it will embrace everything and act a fool and be quote-unquote cool but really

most of the time it just makes you insecure because all you can think about is how you don't live up to the expectation of what people would think would have of you you know so so i don't know what i would have i honestly up until i got married i wondered when it was that i would feel more secure and stable in the dating culture that made me feel so insecure and unstable but then i just got married so there we go that's nice i'm not saying it's the answer the answer is just get married uh you got to miss out on uh apps which is i did entirely yeah no i you know frankly when people talk about that i'm like you know i'm really happy uh about not having to deal with that

yeah bless all of you yeah it's awful dealing with that it's truly the worst because you like in the beginning when i first started using apps i would go back and forth talking to people and then meet them and then go oh my god you're not as quick and as witty as you were in the texting but it's like oh you had a couple hours to come up with something to say back to me or it's like oh you look different or you're like oh man your smell doesn't work with me and my nose yeah it is tough i hate it it's really awful i i honestly can only imagine that when i have friends i actually was sitting on uh uh after i'd recovered from covid i was i was staying at my aunt's place here in london my aunt-in-law. And I was hanging out with her son, my cousin, two of my cousins, my British cousins,

who were like young men, like early 30s. And we were- And they're single? And as far as I'm aware, yeah. Tell them about me? Yeah. I will, I will. I'll just link them to this episode.

I'll be really sly initially. I will. I'll just link them to this episode. I'll be really sly initially. And we were, we were, one of them was just discussing, how do I even say this? He was, he was, so he had some form of a DM on this app and he was, you know, basically saying, Oh, I just got this message from this person. And I, and I think we both were like, in our own way, kind of interested just to be a supportive person in the room at that moment. But I don't know, you know, it's like, all I can do when, when, cause

you know, these are two slightly younger men who were both very single or at least, yeah, that's what I, yeah, I think they're both single. And I mean, you know, I've been married for like five years in a relationship for eight. That's, that's a while, that's a different place than single. And so, and so all I wanted to do was just break down like, oh man, all this stuff that you guys are worried about. Not that it's not real, not that it's not legitimate, not that it's not valid, but it's such the opposite of what you need to be doing in a relationship of any kind that you want to be happy because you're having to sort of perform you're having to like overcome all of these conventions who were created by whom by the

way like what what what is the you know this like lowest common denominator standard that develops over time you're like listen three dates or listen three dms or listen you can't you got to go to a coffee shop on the first one that is wild during the day you know what i mean all that shit basically who is it usually but toxic men i mean honestly i mean honestly i isn't that who maybe not maybe maybe hopefully women are creating more to sort of protect themselves i'm not sure because there are so many weird little rules where it's like, don't text him immediately. Yeah, right.

Leave a couple days. You gotta hide your, you have to slow your roll to make sure what? To basically do that thing where you act as though you aren't interested so someone will be more interested. By the way, what is that? That's middle school.

That goes back. That goes back to the most adolescent shit. It does go very, very, very far back to being a child. And that doesn't sustain, it doesn't sustain a real relationship. Like that's not what friendships are based on. It's not what, you know, healthy friendships. Yeah, yeah.

It's just to me, so I'm, I think years down the line, whereas in my early 20s, I actually lied straight up, by the way, just lied about my, my dating sort of history. Because I thought that people would think I was, you know, an alien for not really having one. uh but now i feel kind of validated and vindicated like yeah that shit is crazy and kind of like dehumanizing because we didn't have you know feminist language wasn't wasn't the norm that you know it's kind of becoming a kind of norm now you know like young men are more aware of a lot of this stuff but back then you know even just 10 15 ago, it wasn't. And, and I, and frankly, yeah, just the things that are expected of a, of a, of a young man in particular in New York city in, in dating culture. Like I tapped out, I tapped out real early. This is not for me. Yeah. It's not for me.

I like that though. How did you meet your wife? not for me i like that though how did you meet your wife somewhat uh as they say randomly um a mutual friend was uh one of the things was hungry and actually two of the things lonely maybe even tired because it was late and and she was at uh she was at this old meatball shop on bedford Ave in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Those who live there know it. I love meatball shop. And this mutual friend of ours was texting, I think, as many people as she could to no longer be lonely. I mean, not that she was struggling with loneliness.

She was just sitting alone and was like, hey, I want some friends to come meet me. And so that's what she did. I was one of them. I actually, I actually wanted to leave. I was, I was, it was cold January. I was tired. I was sick. I was in the period of, I had bronchitis repeatedly. I was not in a position to be hanging out and having a drink, let alone dating, let alone, you know, so I was not in a position to be hanging out and having a drink, let alone dating, let alone, you know, so I thought I was going home and just doing like a kind of a, like a, like a, a nice charitable friend stop, like, hey. And when I found out other people were coming, I was like, oh great, I can leave. And then she told me, she told me, oh, my friend Domino's coming. And I the words i said this i said i feel like i could fall in

love with that person and that's insane i mean it's a little insane you know it's actually it but but that's what i said and that's kind of what i felt and then she came and i and you know we did have that moment of eye contact and she's a bit glowy and i think she has this effect on a lot of people not even in a romantic sense but she's she's very you know she's like a I don't know she's there's something about her that you know you do kind of get that so I didn't think it was maybe unique to me I was actually again you know I was not feeling up to the the whole dating culture element of it in fact here's the response that I would always have when I would meet somebody that I quote unquote liked. I would immediately just be like, well, it's not going to happen because of all of that dating shit. You know what I mean? Yeah.

deep pangs of insecurity and inadequacy and just, just like the beginning, actually the beginning of, of every serious relationship I've had is marked by, by like a heartache of, of, of like woe and anxiety. But then, you know, I guess I get over that and then it can be great in a relationship, you know, but that's, yeah, that's, that's how, that's how it started. Where do you think the insecurities in dating come from with you or used to, used to come from with you? Cause like, you know, you're a very handsome man. So like, yeah. Well, yeah. You know, pretty people get insecure. It's true. It's true. I mean, I honestly think it's true it's true i mean i honestly think it's it's it's it's kind of like it's existential stuff it's it does i mean for me in particular i've trust me i've wondered what it was for for a long time and uh unturned every stone i could and i think there are some specifics that

go back to childhood that I can understand. A lot of that stuff has to do with kind of how you were raised, environments in the home. For everybody, as specific as it gets, it does go to some common universal thing, which is I think like, you know talked earlier about earlier about love being unconditional but really not I think that love in its nature is unconditional but the way that it's usually expressed between people even parents and children is quite conditional you know and that and that I think is like the fear so I was an only child I have I actually have a half sister who I do love uh and have like a a good relationship with now, but we didn't grow up together because she's so much older than me.

And so I just think like isolation. I just think isolation was maybe part of it. I mean, that explains a lot. Whenever I have too much time alone with my thoughts, I'm like, oh boy, we're spiraling. How was the pandemic then for you? So the pandemic was okay only because I had a roommate. I had a roommate and his boyfriend moved in with us. So there was three of us.

And then as soon as they were like, you could be outside. I was like, great. I'll start a roller skating gang where we'll meet once a week. I was just I knew in my head that I like people. I need to be around people. People either suck my energy or feed my energy. And that's just who I am. So I just like made sure I saw people regularly enough to keep myself healthy and sane yeah yeah but if i lived alone during the pandemic i i don't it would it would have been bad yeah well i guess that's probably true for man yeah i was thinking about we for us we i mean my wife was pregnant and i have a stepson who's 13 well he's 13 now what was was he? He was like 10, 11, 12. We had two dogs. We had my stepson's father nearby.

We had, I mean, we just had like a full house, like kind of at all times. So it was like every now and then we dreamed about the kind of isolation of our younger friends. You're like, I wish I could have a moment alone. Yeah. But at the same time, it was quite bonding in some ways, you know. How did you propose to Domino?

Or did Domino propose to you? Well, there was a moment that was like a proposal, but I did, I kind of opened it up, you know, this is going to sound kind of obnoxious, I think, depending on, I didn't really propose, because if you think about it, you know, if you're making a proposal, like what's that word, you know, you're saying, will you marry me? will you marry me? But really the question should be, what do you think about marriage?

What does it mean to be married? Do we feel that we're ready for this? So it was romantic in the sense that I filled an Airstream trailer on her mom's backyard property. I filled it with a bunch of roses, although not that many, not enough. I imagined more. When you say the number that you think is a lot and then you see it, it's not as many as you'd think. You got to just get some more?

Well, you know, Christmas lights and all that. It was actually really beautiful. And yeah, I didn't, as they say, pop lights and all that it was actually really beautiful and um yeah i i didn't i didn't like as they say pop the question but it was more it was more and i did you know i i had a i had a ring which by the way you know you think about this i remember when i was getting the ring and i was like i don't like that one of the first people i'm who knows that i'm I'm who knows that I'm hopefully about to get engaged is, is, is working a cash register. Like talk about capitalists.

Yeah. Patriarchal, blah, blah, blah. Like it really hit me then, you know, I was like,

that's not right. The first person who should know that I'm doing this, technically speaking, it should be the person I want to get engaged to, you know? And I, and I like buying the, all of it felt like such a, we're talking about get engaged to, you know? And I, and I like buying the rent, all of it felt like such a, we're talking about norms and conventions, like none of it felt,

it felt good, but it didn't feel natural. And it didn't always feel the way the good, the kind of good that I think it should. Like, and I say this now in the security of like, you know, having lived through the ups and downs and been married for a while. And like, we, you know, it's like, in a way, like, we're so good that I can, we can now look back and see all the, all those things that make you so nervous, makes you so scared in the beginning and certain points, you know, like, but I remember feeling so, part of the reason I was so nervous leading up to that point was because I didn't feel as though i could talk to her about it because i had to be all mysterious and romantic and put and propose you know what i mean whereas you should be

you should be talking about it yeah and then she's like an object that i'm like all right i've done all the figuring out i'm ready will you that's not that's not again that's not like the grounds for a super stable or at least good and exciting relationship where there's like a quality, you know? And so that was another moment. I was like, all of this just feels so, like, it's not my nature to do it like this, but I'm having to follow this frigging guidebook. Who wrote it? Yeah. Who wrote it?

Who did it? I think it was Kay Jeweler or something. Maybe not K. I don't know. There was one jewelry company that just created engagement rings. They were like, you got to get your girl a ring. And then it became like a thing in the 50s. Yeah, that must be true.

Which is like so interesting to me. And it's also interesting because it's like it's a very big decision that involves two people. But one person has to go away and think about it on their own until they choose to include the second person my parents got engaged i think i don't even know if my dad had a ring but uh i know he said to my mother so do you want to do it and she said do what he was like i don't know you want to get married and she was like well can you ask me nicely so it was like a cute little conversation because my dad was the furthest from a romantic person but yeah i think it should be more it shouldn't have to be a thing i think it could be more of

a conversation and i think that's nice and then you could talk about it's like do you want a proposal what would you like yeah right i mean i obviously romance is is is a nice thing to have, mystery, surprise. Yeah, okay. But at the same time, like what is in the foundation of the thing? What's in the engine of the thing to really make it run and last and be good and be enjoyable? And I just don't feel like those things play as much of a role as we think, partly because, you know, we see all these stories where it's nothing but mystery, surprise and romance. But then again, like these people like Romeo and Juliet die at the end,

you know, in a way that's, by the way, I'm just thinking about it. Cause someone was talking about, you know, we got the, we got the,

the other Baz Luhrmann movie coming out now, Elvis. And so someone was mentioning his version of Romeo and Juliet. And my stepson is reading reading shakespeare in his in his class and and i yeah i was just i was just you know revisiting that that one and it's such that story has so many different levels to it because you have so many people who just kind of see the love story of it and like want that you know and it's like guys they they both like commit suicide at the end yeah it's a full-blown tragedy for so little reason yeah for

so little reason you know yeah it's a miscommunication and then and aren't they 15 i believe they're 15 they're younger than than we think. They might've been like, maybe like, maybe it's like 13 and 16 or 14 and 16. Yeah. But they're young. I want to see a production with kids that age. And I think we would all be like, what is this?

This is devastating. What is this? What? I'm devastated. What, what is this? Yeah. It's funny.

Cause when you watch it with adults, you're like, well, they're adults. They made a choice. But it's like, no, they were children. Yeah. A lot of love could be, I think, categorized under tragedy, which is sad. But also, I don't know. Feelings are feelings.

And in therapy, I'm learning about how to hold a space for my feelings. Because my other therapist, she was like, feelings aren't facts. And I said that to my current therapist. And she's like, well, yeah, feelings might not be facts. But there is a world where you just hold some space and feel those feelings. And know that it's not necessarily true. But, like, you can just, you know, feel it for a little bit until you can move on and i was like oh i like that uh yeah i think that i think the balance between those things

i think because feelings aren't facts you know they but they may as well be because you feel them yeah and you can't ignore your feelings that know, I mean, that's actually the strange, beautiful irony of it, which all of our lives, whoever is able to really lie to themselves about their feelings, like serial killers, maybe? Maybe. But even then, I think they kind of have like a point

where they're like, hmm, I don't feel great about killing, but I think I'm going to do it again. Just one more time. Yeah, that's my character work for Joe. Just right there. Okay, real quick, we got to take a break. But really, though, it's kind of amazing how we forget like our feelings in a way are all

we have like we our feelings completely eclipse facts regularly i mean regularly look at what's happening to our fill in the blank i don't even have to say the word look what's happening to fill in the blank feelings truly like feelings are not facts but feelings seem to eclipse them and i don't know i think as human beings we have to be a bit more honest about that like what does that mean that's that we have to we have to that means actually what your what your second therapist is saying which is uh you have to give space to your feelings and you know as an actor what i feel like i try to do um i have this really brilliant coach uh harold guskin who who passed and then kind of like in death passed the baton to his lifelong wife and they they were this incredible duo and this kind of anti-method that they practice is is like you can't you can't ever like you know

you might think you're an actor this is my inference so this is not necessarily exactly what they would say but you know who do we think as actors who who do we as actors think we are some special breed of human who can lie about how they feel just because you're playing a character. I don't believe that. So to be honest, what I try to do is just be honest about how I feel as I have to say the thing right in the spot,

wearing the clothes in front of the, you know, and it's like, if you can actually be emotionally present and honest about how you feel in the moment, that actually is always going to be very powerful, you know, no matter what. And if you're saying the thing you have to say, it's just going to seem like a cool choice. And so to me, I'm trying to practice what I preach, which is this, what we're talking about in terms of emotional health. It's like, you can't, I just, I just feel like so much of what's wrong in the world

comes from people lying about how they feel. And it really is even systemic. You know, it is profoundly systemic. It's in the infrastructures of our institutions from top down, bottom up, everything, you know, and it's just like, I don't know, people being more, and this is why I could never date. And this is why, thank God, I don't have to anymore.

I'm sorry, Nicole. I'm sorry to you that you have to do this it's okay it's my cross you and how many billion others so so many people it is interesting that i mean i find it genuinely very hard in the moment unless i'm on a set and unless I'm acting, to say how I feel in the moment. Like when I'm with a friend or if I'm on a date or dating somebody and they've made me angry, my go-to is to be like, no, I'm fine. Yeah, don't worry about it.

And then later be like, well, I mean, I was upset. And it's like, well, why don't you just tell me in the moment? And it's like, I don't worry about it and then later be like well i mean i was upset and it's like well why don't you just tell me in the moment and it's like i don't know i i guess it's like i maybe i don't want to like make waves but truly like on a set i have no problem advocating for myself being like i don't feel safe doing that this and the other but in life i'm like oh i don't want to be a bother and i have no idea why I'm like that oh that's interesting so I think that when I'm on set I'm kind of I'm learning how to advocate for myself I mean when you're you know I'm at a point where being number one on the call sheet

and like obviously there people want to make sure that I'm comfortable and happy, but even then there's such a stigma around people at the top being difficult. I certainly don't want to be that either. I'm not naturally that anyway. And so, yeah, I actually have real trouble advocating for myself on set. I do add things to it where I'm like, I'm not trying to be a bitch, but here's the reasoning behind it. Is that okay? Do you hate me?

You should. I mean, I think that's great. I think that's great. I mean, I am an advocate for you advocating for yourself. Oh, Ben, thank you so much. I didn't know this. Wait, are you in a band? Well, the band is not so current, but it's good music that I would encourage anyone to

listen to. It's called Mother, spelled with a hipster X, because we had rights issues to the name Mother. There's so many other mothers. But yeah, M-O-T-H-X-R. You can find that wherever you get your podcasts. Ooh, Spotify? Yes, you can. And that's the only thing I could think of.

I don't use Spotify. It's very hard for me. Really? I use Apple Music and people are always like, ugh, Nicole. I just, okay. So is your phone in dark mode or is it in light mode? Do you know what I mean? Dark mode.

See, I don't like the dark mode. It doesn't give me joy. I like the light brightness. So you just want the white background. I guess so. Spotify doesn't have it. Spotify always had the black background, right? Yeah.

And it bums me out. It's too dark. Interesting. Interesting. That's a good enough reason. I mean, really, what other difference is there? No, that's it. Apple has the white background

and I find it to be bright and poppy. That's nice. Yeah. It's a little bit about me. That says a lot about you you should share it you should share that on on a first or second date i should i should be like do you like spotify i don't and i'm like okay she's a little intense about and cardi b had an interaction on twitter was this an actual interaction or was this like a like a press thingy it was a twitter action

no it was real it was real in that sense it was totally real spontaneous i'm trying to think of how it happened oh there were some Bardi gang members who, that's what they're called, by the way, right? I'm not just making that up. The Bardi gang. Bardi gang. Like her fans. Yeah.

They had found some old clip of me on a press tour with Shea Mitchell in the Philippines from 2019, I think. And I was talking about how I don't really feel that comfortable on social media, but I can respect people who do have a more authentic, like kind of spontaneous relationship to it. And I cited Cardi B as a reference. Because I think particularly in 2019, she was in a sweet spot before she,

I mean, she wasn't diamond then, you know what I mean? Um, and, uh, she was still huge, but there was something about the way she was on, on all her socials. That was, I found very endearing and it's just directness, you know, as I guess, you know, so much of the world does. And I just i don't know i was saying something about that and um this clip went out to it was just on twitter and and and so this little clip uh i guess cardi saw it because people were adding her and me or something like that and then she just tweeted what she tweeted which was something like oh my god he knows who i am i'm famous famous and and you know of course me being who i am and she being who she is i had my response which was what it is which was just i dash i mean it was all genuine but that's all you know i mean if you think about it everybody made

way more of it than it is we We've still never met in person. We would like to. I hope one day you will. We've tried to make it happen, but I guess it's just going to, it's up to fate now. Up to the universe. The reason why I asked, I was like, I thought it was just a cute, fun interaction. And then I was like, I hope it was real. Because sometimes you see things and you're like, oh, it wasn't real.

Penn, I need to ask you about your podcast. I need to know more about Pod Crushed. Well, it comes from me and my co-hosts co-fascination with this period of time that we call middle school. And for very different reasons, by the way. Like I would say, so my co-hosts nava cavlin and sophie i'm sorry um they both actually are in some way former teachers uh one of them was a middle school director like a like a vice principal slash director and the other one was a fifth grade teacher which is funneling right into middle school i mean they so they have a lot of like, they're very competent professional individuals. Nava used to work at the UN as a researcher and a writer.

And so, you know, just two people who don't come from media, which I liked a lot. And, you know, we actually knew each other through the Baha'i community in Brooklyn, New York. What is Baha'i? Yeah, so I am Baha'i and is the Baha'i community in Brooklyn, New York. What is Baha'i? Yeah. So I am Baha'i and is the Baha'i faith is based on this body of writings and teachings that, you know, you could call it an independent world religion,

but I think its conception of religion is very different from what most of us say when we say religion, but, but, but, you know, core to the, to the entire teachings to the Baha'i teachings is the oneness of humanity. And so all around the world, basically in every locality, Brooklyn was where I became a Baha'i and found it and explored it and met other Baha'is is basically where, you know, all these community building activities, which emanate from this essential teaching of the oneness of humanity. You know, what does it mean for people to become protagonists in their own community, regardless of where they are, regardless of who they are? What does that mean? And so there's this essential age that we call

the junior youth, which is like 11 to 14 or 12 to 15. And in America that aligns with middle school. And the reason that this period of life is considered significant is, is it's kind of like, you know, what it means to be human. That's when these powers and potentialities, these capacities are all finally really blossoming, you know, your, your sense of individuality, your sense of justice, your sense of selfhood, your sense of service to others, you know, your sense of just all these qualities that we call human. Before that age, they're not, you know, they exist, but they're not really that developed. And after that age, you know, depending on what you did in that period of time, it's like you might be configured one way or the other. So it's like it's just a time where there's a unique window to really

empower people that age so i happen to i had a junior youth group i don't know i don't think they at that point had a junior youth group but anyway the point is nava sophie and i years later were just like talking about this and and the concept came out of that because, you know, it's like, and Nava specifically, whose idea it was like, she was, it was really her baby before she brought it to us. I mean, she used to work at a middle school and she would see how, I mean, you know, as, as, as beautifully as we might imagine this period of life, you know, thinking of all the spiritual potential, this and that at the end of the day, kids in middle school can seem bipolar, you know, because of all the things that are just coursing through them physically, you know, it's like, and so she just thought it

was like a hilarious time full of insane stories and that everybody must have them. So her idea was to have people send in real stories. And even the idea was initially to have me narrate them, but then we realized, oh, that's something that I do already. Why don't I just narrate some of these stories? And then we can talk to guests about their stories and that time in their life. And so far, the sort of thesis that we have that this period of life is uniquely formative for everybody uh seems to

hold true oh it sounds fun it sounds interesting and yeah i i like listening to your voice so maybe i'll listen to it i like you narrate very well thank you that is i do i honestly voiceover is i really like it i really enjoy it it's fun you fun. You did a, I think it was a TikTok where you narrated what a girl was doing or something. And I was like, oh boy, this is a nice genre. I like it. Yeah. By the way,

I think people think that I was doing that just off the cuff. I was not. I was reading a script watching this, you know, it was like a Netflix press thing and it worked. Ah, see, okay. I thought that was organic. There we go. Yeah, they know how to do it. Well, Penn, we've come to the end. Thank you so much for doing this. You're truly delightful.

And I ask all my guests this question, would you date me? Well, if I wasn't married i certainly would wow that's delightful thank you so much pen do you have anything you want to promote besides your podcast oh just just peace and goodwill on earth you know we need that's actually a project I'm in. It's about the dissolution of society. That's coming out in 2024. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a Netflix special. No. Yeah. No, I got nothing else to promote. I got nothing else to promote. That would be very funny if you had said all that and you're like, actually drops on Netflix. I would be like, boy, oh boy. Well, what a dream. You're nothing like I thought you were.

When does the next season of You come out? You season four. It must be. So I'm in London right now shooting that. And we're about halfway through. It should be out. I don't, of course, don't know the date. I would think that it will come out end of year.

But no one can hold me to that. Okay. When you get to set on Tuesday, say to a producer, let's get Nicole Byer there. Let's hide her behind a tree. And she'll go oh is that joe i don't know and then i'll never appear again i'll talk to them i need as i said i need to learn to advocate for myself so this will be a the first step towards the first step to you advocating for yourself advocacy is this lady i met over the weekend really wants to be

on the show so can she come i will pay for my own flight, and I could be a local hire. No, no, no. Don't say that on air. Don't say that on air. Don't do it. I have a lot of points. I'll do it. I love Delta.

Thank you so much for doing this, Penn. Thank you for having me. Well, that's it for this episode of Oh, Why Won't You Date Me? If you liked it, you can subscribe. You can rate it. You can give me five stars on Apple Podcasts. If you write me something hitting on me, a nasty little come on to why won't you date me podcast at gmail.com, I will read it aloud. This nice person said, hello, Nicole.

I'd like to take you on a romantic candlelit dinner. Then we take a lovely stroll on the beach in the moonlight. I take you home, kiss you on the cheek, then go home to jerk my veiny man meat in the shower. Holy crap. Wow. Okay. That's left. Wow.

Bye-bye. Bye. That's it for Why Won't You Date Me? With me, Nicole Byer. Why Won't You Date Me with me, Nicole Byer. Why Won't You Date Me is produced and engineered by, oh, the sweetest woman I know, Marissa Melnick. It is executive produced by other wonderful people, Adam Sachs, Joanna Solo-Taroff, and Jeff Ross. Thanks for listening.

I love you. Thank you so much. We'll be seeing you next Friday with a brand new episode. What a dream. What a dream. This has been a Team Coco production.