Why Won't You Date Me? with Nicole Byer - Fatphobia (w/ Roxane Gay)

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

Oh boy this is a juicy one. Author Roxane Gay (Bad Feminist, Hunger) joins Nicole to discuss their experiences with institutional racism, dealing with fatphobia in interviews, and how she treated school like a videogame. Then, Roxane shares the story behind eloping, how quarantine is testing the strength of relationships everywhere, and how her wife woo'd her through podcasting.Be an active ally. For a list of resources and ways to help, check out blacklivesmatters.carrd.co.Follow Nicole Byer:Twitter: @nicolebyerInstagram: @nicolebyerFacebook: www.facebook.com/nicolebyercomedyBuy Merch: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/nicole-byer?ref_id=964Order Nicole's book: www.indiebound.org/book/9781524850746Advertise on Why Won’t You Date Me via Gumball.fm

Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Please tell me why! Oh wow, wow, wow. Welcome to another episode of Why Won't You Date Me? The podcast where me, Nicole Byer, tries to figure out how I'm still single, even though you could rip my headphones out of my ears, hide them forever, never tell me where they are,

and I would still date you. I am running out of these. But my guest today has written some incredible things, like bademinist, Hunger, Difficult Women, and Untamed State. It's Roxanne Gay! Hi. Oh, Roxanne, thank you so much for doing this. You're welcome. It's my pleasure. Oh my goodness. I truly, I think I've told you this before because've met and we had coffee and it was delightful. But I loved Hunger so much.

I like you have a true talent of like you wrote a book and any old person can read it. But I felt like you were talking specifically to me. That means a lot. I love when people feel like my work connects with them. And, you know, it's a very specific book, but that people still see themselves and their lives and the stories of their bodies in the story of my body means quite a lot to me. my body means quite a lot to me. There was one story in it that really spoke to me.

And it was on the elliptical, a thinner person had gotten on the elliptical next to you. And you were like, I will out, outlast this person on this elliptical if it fucking kills me. And going like a gym is not a nice place for fat people i feel like when you walk in people immediately look at you and they're like oh you don't belong here but then the world tells you to work out so you're like well where the fuck do i do this and there's been so many times where i'm like this thin person the treadmill, I will stay on longer so they know I'm working.

And it's like, for what? You know, the funniest part of that is at the end of it, like I've won what I think is a moral victory. And then I'm exhausted and they go about their lives and still have a shitty attitude. and still have a shitty attitude. And it's incredibly frustrating because, you know, when I in those moments, I feel like, oh, my God, I'm giving in to everything I stand against. But it also feels so good because people think that fat people don't work out and don't aren't fit. And, you know, I look at Lizzo, who does these extraordinarily energetic 90-minute, two-hour shows. And I always wonder,

do you really think she's not working out to sustain her energy? That's someone with a really intense fitness routine. And it's just interesting. And I feel like the thought holds even truer to female identifying bigger bodies because there are these huge football players that are like 300 pounds. And I don't see men walking around being like, they're unhealthy. They're not fit. So I feel like it's strictly women's bodies that are bigger, that are sloppy and not strong and not healthy.

It's so weird to me. Mm-hmm. We live in a strange world with a strange understanding of women's bodies. We truly do. And it's always interesting to see what men get away with and the bodiesel or married to a supermodel or an incredibly conventionally attractive woman, but you never see the reverse. You never see a beautifully fat woman and a conventionally attractive man together. it's just the hypocrisy is galling it's so wild i this is uh probably a question you've answered at nauseam but i think people ask me all the time they're

like how do i get into comedy and i'm and it's well, you have to do it to then do it. So when did you discover that writing was something you were good at and something that you wanted to practice and pursue? I started writing when I was four years old, which is very young. But I mean, I was writing what you would expect a four year old to write, like very silly little stories. But they were earnest. And I don't know that I ever knew I was good at writing, but I always took myself seriously as a writer. And I made time for it. And I read constantly and I submitted my work even in high school, when I was writing quite terrible things and was being rejected resoundingly and deservedly. And so it's always been this way.

But I started really getting published in my 20s. And I was writing a lot of erotica. And you know, just telling some very good sexy stories. And I because I had sort of given up on mainstream publishing, I just thought, well, they're never going to like my work. So I'm just going to find a playground that is interested in having me play on it. graduate school and living in the middle of nowhere. And I started to submit my work again to mainstream publications. And this time, I think because I had been actively writing the entire time, people started thinking my work was reasonably good and accepting it. So I like, I like how humble you are about the whole thing. You're just like, people started liking it. I think what people like the best is you write your voices it truly like comes through and when i read it i feel like it's almost like a podcast like when people listen to podcasts they're like i'm listening to friends so when i read your writing i'm like oh a friend is telling me a story um because you write in

thoughts as opposed to complete sentences, if that makes sense. It does. Yeah. And I really, really appreciate that. And I love it so much. I often get stuck trying to create and I push myself to like take little bits of time to figure out what I want to do for the day. And that's hard. Being a creative person is hard. want to do for the day. And that's hard. Being a creative person is hard. It is. You know, for me, I enjoy, I love writing. I'm not a tortured writer by any means. Now, certainly creativity is easier on some days than others. And sometimes I'm not feeling any inspiration and every word feels like I'm pulling it from stone and I'm very unhappy with what I create. And I think a lot of people try to glamorize creativity.

And the reality is that it's work and it's beautiful TV show ideas is actual work and it's a practice. And so many people believe in this fantasy of the muse. And certainly you can find inspiration in all kinds of things. And some people do have muses. And some people do have muses. But I always think of muses as women who are providing emotional labor for male artists without compensation. So I am my own muse. But, you know, it's an actual practice that takes work.

And I wish we would talk more about the practicalities of creativity so that people would recognize that you really just, you know, how do you do comedy? You do it. How do you write? You literally write. So many people reach out to me and ask for advice about how to get started. And I know what they're looking for. They're looking and they also always share all the sort of conspiracy theories that there are around publishing. And I have to disabuse them of that notion and admit, yeah, there are some challenges you might face along the way, but have you written a book? And nine times out of 10, they haven't even started to write anything. They're just worried about publication.

And I'm just like, but you have nothing to publish. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a lot of like, when i started out all the advice was like have something tangible to show people yeah you want to be an actor but like do you have a web series that someone can use in lieu of a reel since you have no uh work to speak for yourself and i think people don't want to do the work if they don't know what the outcome is at the end. Yes. And I think that's so interesting to be like, well, I think it's because a lot of the world

is one plus one equals two, but you're just like, in creativity, it's like, oh, one plus one can equal two, but it could take 10 years for it to equal two. Yes. And I think that more people should understand the realities of creativity and especially the business, so to speak, like that not everything you create is going to become what you think it's going to become. entertainment. I don't think people realize how much development and work behind the scenes goes into pretty much, especially for people of color and black women. Like, I don't think they know how many years you spend developing behind the scenes before you ever, ever get something that maybe will get on the air. And because it's not glamorous to talk about that people are more interested in the story of someone who like wrote a tweet and got a tv deal like that's the exception to the rule yes absolutely

it's just such the exception when you look at most writers you and you look at their sort of development resume they've developed like five pilots and you will you'll never see them you'll never hear of them and And that's okay, because they were doing the work to get to where they need to be. And you know, it's not glamorous, but it is what it is. It is. Yeah, it is. I was also looking at your Wikipedia page. I didn't realize how much college you went to. You went to so much college. I did all the college do you have a doctorate i do that's so bananas yes i love that um it's i was always so bad at school because i have like add and i'm a visual learner and teachers never took the time to figure out how to teach me things. So I just grew up being like school

sucks. I hate it. But like you being in school for so long, you must learn in a way that's universal or how did you do so much school? That's an insane question, but I genuinely. No, I actually understand the question. I was very good at school. And in many ways, question, I was very good at school. In many ways, I kind of treated school like a video game, and I just kept leveling up. And I understood the rules of school and how to succeed by playing by those rules. And I don't know that if that's a good quality or not. I, you know, I'm ambivalent about whether or not that's like the way to go. But I was one of those people who is fortunate enough to be able to thrive in that environment. I also am really glad I'm done with school. Like I don't ever need to be a student again. And as a professor, I meet students all

the time. So I get sort of whatever fix I might crave of the academic setting from my students. And that is enough for me. But yeah, I just knew how to play the game. And I have Haitian parents and they're really intense and very invested in education. in education. And so I just was not ever given space to do anything but be great at school. Like that wasn't, it was not an option. And they were not interested in any struggles you may have had learning. Like they just like when I look at especially at my brothers, who also did really well and did a lot of school, but I think struggled in different ways. I struggled socially.

And I think that they had focus issues at times. And they still did well. Because it just wasn't part of our framework that anything but that was possible. But, you know, like there were consequences to that. That was possible. But, you know, like there were consequences to that. And so it's just interesting to now be on the other side of it and think, wow, I really went all the way. What the fuck? My dad's parents are from Barbados.

So my dad was born in Barbados. I'm first generation on that side of the family. And they love school. They to this day are like, well, when are you going to go get a degree? When are you when are you going to get a real job? And I'm like, I have a real job and I'm doing okay. But like, I don't have a college degree. And to them, that means any amount of success I get isn't real because it's not validated by a diploma. I mean, I'm sorry, but do they not have a Netflix account? They sure don't. any amount of success I get isn't real because it's not validated by a diploma. I mean, I'm sorry, but do they not have a Netflix account?

They sure don't. Okay. Because I don't know how they can say that. That is outrageous. I am furious on your behalf. Excuse me. They're old. They stay inside.

My sister will tell them. She'll keep them updated. But every time I see them, they're old they stay inside my sister will tell them she'll keep them updated but every time i see them they're like so maybe you'll go back to college and i'm like i'm done i don't i didn't go to real college the thought i went to like an acting conservatory and what i see from movies it seems like high school is still like hands-. You're in a class. They take attendance. You better show up. You get penalized for being tardy or not showing up in college. They're just like, hey, if you come, you come. And also it's really expensive. It's it's it seems like we set people up for failure because there's no in between. You know, I think we have to really take a long,

hard look at our educational system because from K through 12, we basically put children in day prison. And, you know, schools are built like prisons. And we treat children that way. Like, go from this room to this room. Don't don't run. Don't talk too much. Raise your hand. So we instilled that discipline for 12 or 13 years of a child's life. And then we are like, all right, go be in the world and good luck. And I remember when I actually went to boarding school. And so I had some independence from the beginning of high school on. But when I look at kids who go direct from a traditional public high school to college and that lack of structure and the lack of consequences until the end of the semester when you get your shitty grade and you're like, oh, wait, was there something I was

supposed to be doing? You know, it's quite a culture shock for a lot of students who aren't prepared, wait, was there something I was supposed to be doing? You know, it's quite a culture shock for a lot of students who aren't prepared, especially, you know, I look at first generation students who don't have anyone to tell them, hey, here's what you can expect from college. And then you also see the students who are extraordinarily privileged and know what to expect from college and don't give a fuck anyway and just do what they want. And so you see all kinds of things and it's a quite a transition and it's not for everyone. And I don't think we prepare children adequately for the demands of

having to go to class on your own, do your homework on your own and there should be a bridge year of some kind yeah i think so i what is boarding school like i truly the only thing i really know about boarding school is like from movies and television and i don't know if any of that is true but what yeah what is boarding school like uh well i'm black so it's exactly as horrible as you would think i wish i had something good to say about it but i don't uh i would send my child only because now i know what to look for in terms of what happens at boarding school. But for me, it was great academically and socially, it was a nightmare, partly because it was a predominantly white institution. And I was from Nebraska, so I was used to white people, but I was not used to ultra wealthy white people who didn't know what to do with a black person that didn't

white people who didn't know what to do with a black person that didn't embody what they thought a black person should embody. So they just didn't know what to do with me. And of course, the black students were like, get your shit together. Which they got, they gathered me quickly. And I'm grateful to this day. quickly and um i'm grateful to this day but it was rough it was really rough for me i was really nerdy i was also just messed up and i would yeah it was a rough time and i kind of hate everything about it and now that everyone's talking about what it means to be black at various institutions. They've done a black at Exeter Instagram. And I read that shit like it's my stories. I'm just like, that happened to me as well. And it's also heartbreaking that 30 years later, this shit is still happening.

Like the racism of the institution is still there. And, you know, I did a speaking event at my high school two or three years ago. And I was hoping that when I got there, it would be like a drastically changed institution. And it was the exact same high school that I left. And I could just tell it was the exact same high school. And it was interesting. Yeah, that's always a bummer i didn't realize how racist the town i grew up in was until uh i mean i guess i always like knew but just was like well

that's just the town but um so there's two high schools in my town middle town high school south middle high school north and middle town high school north uh the school i didn't go to uh had a black violet vict Victorian this year. And she posted something where she was like, I succeeded in spite of not because of. There is so much racism, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the parents response was, well, you're going to Columbia. So, I mean, it couldn't have been all that bad. And I was like, wow, way to not hear what this person is saying they literally said i

succeeded in spite of not because of and i feel like when people of color black people especially black women especially because she was a black woman speak out about shit like that people are very quick to be like but you have x y and z you should be grateful for that and oh it's just like no i shouldn't i shouldn't be grateful for just normal things that you take for granted right like the end product the end result is not it doesn't make the suffering worthwhile you know and frankly it happens despite what you went through, like exactly as she said in her valedictorian speech, like I achieved this despite everything you did to keep me from doing so. And yes, I may be going to Columbia, but, you know, I'm sure she knows she's going to encounter a lot of the same issues at Columbia. and you know like this idea that we should be grateful for things that we've earned and like for frankly scraps is just uh it's a lot it is a lot to um to swallow yeah it's a lot to process

it's a lot to try to make people understand and i feel like all of the i got to do some press for my book which i'm very grateful that I am able to have a publicist. But like a lot of the questions were just like, as a black person during this time, and I give the same answer. And I don't know if people are listening now. I was like, they were like, do you think people will continue talking about this? And I was like, well, black people never stopped. We never in our art or music or comedy, we never stopped. So like, I think the question you should ask is not to me, but to other white people to be like, are you still listening? And then I was like, I would love to see a white person interview another white person and be like,

what are your thoughts? I don't see that enough. I feel like they're very complacent to ask people of color, black people, how do you feel? But they don't ask each other. And I guess it's because they don't want to be wrong. But I'm like, if you're not wrong and corrected, how can you learn? You know, like, don't be afraid to say something. If you say something that's like racist or whatever, and someone calls you out on it, just go, oh, my bad. I'm going to learn a little bit more about that. And I feel like we don't do that enough.

We don't. And so often people put the the onus of of keeping people thinking about diversity and inclusion and equity like they make us responsible for freeing ourselves from our oppression. And it's ridiculous. And the older I get, and I think probably the more established I get, the more I just love to call people out for asking me stupid ass questions about race or sexuality. Because like, why are you asking me this? Black people have like, and I say this publicly all the time this black people have like and i say this publicly all the time black people are not the problem there is not a goddamn thing we need to

do about racism at all other than collect the check for reparations period and end of story deal with it and you know like it now that white people are finally aware to more of an extent about the depth and breadth of racism, like now they want to like make sure we are aware of what they've just learned. It's like, yeah, we know. We've been here all along. Have you read a single thing I've written? Like, we know. We know. And then what's so frustrating, and you know this, like when you write a book that may include race, but is about so much more. And you're asked questions about race, like, because the only thing you can be an expert on is your blackness or your womanhood.

It's infuriating. It's infuriating. Like, guys, I am so much more like race isn't even really my beat. And what are you doing? I just am black. And I care about equality. And I talk about it. But I talk about 100 other things as well. And yeah, the myopia is overwhelming. I had this interview with these people, these two white people. And when he was introducing my book, it's called Very Fat, Very Brave. And he goes, I mean, I'm not saying this. They're telling me the name of your book is Very Fat, Very Brave. And I was like, yep, nobody told you that is the name of the book.

It's okay to say I'm a fat woman. It's something about me, whatever. And then he asked me another question about quarantine. and he was like again this is something they're telling me to say you pole dance and i was like yeah and there's nothing wrong with pole dancing and it's one of the worst interviews i've ever given because i stopped giving a fuck once i felt that someone was shaming me before they even got to the question. I was like, go fuck yourself. Good sir.

Like that's how dare you invite me to take time out of my day for you to openly judge me. You rude motherfucker. And also the condescension of those, of the, the, the way they ask those questions. Like,

I know this is a, I have a bias about this issue, but I'm going to pretend I don't have a bias, little lady. Like, yeah. Talking, stick a toothpick up your dick. True. Stop talking to me. Yes, honestly, that's what I wish. I wish for him to stick a toothpick up his dick because I was like. Right up there.

Just from these two statements, I know how you feel about fat people and i know how you feel about uh sex work like even though like i'm not a sex worker but people associate paul with sex work i was like now i know that you don't like either of those things yeah and you think you're better than those things and i'm like but you're not the segment before was talking about how you lost your phone and that's like television? Okay, dude. Like, you just, it blew my mind. It made me so angry. And what's so interesting is that these guys get to control so much of the discourse.

And people look at them and their banal lives and think they're interesting. Meanwhile, here's this gorgeous fat black woman who pole dances and they're like, they don't know what to talk to you about. Like, seriously, you've given them five things right up front. And that's like without even turning the cover of the book. It's infuriating. I mean, infuriating is the word. I can't stop saying it because that's just what it is. And I don't think people understand, especially when you write about being a fat black woman. I don't think people understand

how stupid the questions are. When hunger came out, I had to do a fuck ton of press and I'm extraordinarily grateful for that. But I am also still really traumatized by it because people ask me so many questions that were offensive. I remember doing Fresh Air with Terry Gross. And I was so proud and I was so excited because my dad loves Terry Gross and I really admire her or I did. And so we get into the interview and she says says so could you please describe your body to me and i was like i'm very tall because i knew she wanted me to say some sort of self-loathing thing yes that reinforced what she thinks and if you look at her and like see her shows she clearly has some fat phobia issues and maybe i i don't want to diagnose her

but she's got some stuff going around going on around weight and and she said no but like how else would you describe your body and i said very tall because i just i i just was like, do you really think that I'm going to sit here and denigrate myself for you to like, it was just, I'll never forget it. I will never forget it. It was like, I wrote the whole book about my body. Yeah, it's like, did you read any part of it? There's so many things that you could pull from the book, positive and negative about your body that it's just like, asking you to describe it is just being redundant at that point.

And also salacious. Yes. And I know what she was getting at. She was getting at what I would say 96% of all of the journalists were because I write what my highest weight was in the book. And not one single article about the book to this day has not mentioned that number. Not one single article about the book to this day has not mentioned that number. And I kind of put it in there as a sort of canary in the coal mine. It was a way of testing to see who was worthy of the book and who was not. And the only person who was worthy of it and who did not exploit that was Trevor Noah.

Yeah, I think Trevor Noahah is he's a great interviewer and he's smart and he does the research before he starts his interviews which i fully appreciate it's also so funny i don't remember the number i but then again i guess i was reading it for myself and not as a voyeur i was in the world as opposed to looking in the world. And I feel like a lot of times people go, so you love yourself, but how? And it's like, oh, so you really didn't understand it. Because it's not how, it's just I choose to. Correct. And what they're really asking with that question is, how do you love yourself when I am so repulsed by you? Absolutely. And, you know, people just

cannot imagine. And like, if you read my book, I talk about having good days where I think I'm just fine as a person and deserve to be in this world. And of course, days of self-loathing because I live in this world that is so fat phobic. But people are so they just don't get like how I don't kill myself because I think if they were my size, they would. And it's really telling. And the other thing that they get really interested in is like, oh, you're in a relationship. Yes, I'm actually married. And they're very surprised. Because again, they could not imagine being in a relationship with a fat person. And it's so telling. And I actually appreciate when people tell on themselves. I can't say I enjoy it because it ends up being painful to me but I appreciate when people show me who they are and what they

value and what they think and also I look at them and I just think listen I wouldn't fuck you either so that's the thing my mother used to always say when I would lament about my friends you know getting their first boyfriends and whatnot hey she'd she'd be like, you're a little black girl in an all-white town, so you got that against you. Two, would you want to date that person? And the answer was usually like, no, they're gross. Their hair is greasy.

They're not attractive to me. So she was like, so don't want or long for something that you actually don't want. Right. That's such a good, wow. That's such a great thing for a mother to tell you. Oh, she was full of, I miss her so much. She was full of so many like things.

Like she wrote me this letter because I very much was a little girl who, I don't think I was jealous, but I would always be like, well, why can't I have this? She said I had an entitlement problem. She was like, you think you're entitled to a lot of things that you're not. She's like, and the world isn't fair. Some people want long hair who have short hair.

Some people want to be lighter when they're darker. Some people want to be darker when they're lighter. She was like, you can't have everything. You need to learn how to be happy with what you have and go for what you want. how to be happy with what you have and go for what you want. And I'm so fucking blessed to have had that and that I still have that letter and that I can still read it and keep a little part of her with me every day. But real quick, we have to take a break. And we're back.

So I didn't know you were married. I thought you were engaged. I was engaged. We eloped. Our wedding was supposed to be in October. And the Rona. So we pushed it to October 2021 now. So we are still having our big fun party because I've never been married.

Well, congratulations. Thank you. so we are still having our big fun party because i've never been married and congratulations thank you and so we just we went to a website called instantmarriagela.com and then went to a little office building in encino and a russian woman married us under a plastic hoopla it was great the way your face lit up i love it that's cute. How did you meet your partner? She's very persistent. And she has a podcast called Design Matters. And she first invited me to be on the podcast. And I told her to get in touch with one of my publicists. And my publicist did not get in touch with her. And so eventually, she wrote me back and said, it's been a few months. I've emailed your publicist a few times. She hasn't gotten in touch with me. And I said, you know, I'm honestly just interviewed out right

now. So I'm going to pass. And then hunger came out and she sent me a beautiful email talking about how much she loved hunger. And I don't know that I responded. And then a couple of years ago, she did an event with a mutual friend and the mutual friend afterwards, they were having drinks. The mutual friend mentioned that I'm her mentor. And she said, oh my they were having drinks, the mutual friend mentioned that I'm her mentor. And she said, Oh, my God, I have a crush on Roxane Gay, but I know she has a person. What's going on there? And my because I was in a relationship at the time, but I was allowed to see other people. And my friend said, shoot your shot. And so she shot her shot and emailed me again, and said that she would like to take me out on a proper date. And so she shot her shot and emailed me again and said that she would like

to take me out on a proper date. And I said, sure. I'm so terrible. I am so terrible. Like, I'm literally with her despite my best efforts. And eventually, after like several one word emails, we did have dinner after an event in new york and we've been dating we were dating ever since and yeah oh that's cute i love how persistent she was i love this is a thing that i want and i'm not fucking giving up and it turns out like she had started to invite guests on her podcast that she thought i would like and And I was like, I don't listen to podcasts. I didn't even know about this. But then she showed me all of these incredible guests like Amy Sherald,

Dalma Golden, a bunch of other people that I really respect and admire. And so like her instincts were just on point. You know, it's always, it was the first time in my life that anyone has ever chased me. First time. Like it's chasing in a respectful way from what I'm understanding. But then also giving you gifts without asking for anything really in return. It was so, yeah, it was just so honest honest she was just so earnest and honest and she never really she she was not pushy she was persistent but not pushy which is so important and

while being chased is very attractive i actually ended up really liking her and then loving her like as a person it wasn't just the chase she's just endlessly interesting to me so yeah it was surprising and great and every day is an adventure i love that phrase endlessly interesting i think like that's what i'm looking for i think that's what everyone is looking for someone that they just want to talk to every day correct and when you find out that new thing you're like oh wow i i just like it to put that in my little lexicon about all the things i know about you yeah i love that term i'm gonna use that i find you endlessly interesting oh for sure like when i learn something new about her, I'm like, wait, wow, how did I not know this about you?

Awesome. Awesome. It's just so great. And especially with isolation, we've been long distance for our entire relationship because she's based out of New York and I'm based out of Los Angeles. And now we decided to quarantine together. Angeles. And now we decided to quarantine together. And if you don't like each other, this could be real rough. I mean, my friends who are not in good relationships are not in a good place right now because they're being confronted all day every day with how bad their relationships are. And I'm being confronted all day every day with how great this is and that we're actually

enjoying it despite the sort of horror that's happening and you know I feel really horrible about it and I'm very worried about the world but at least I have a safe space at home. It's almost like a forced honeymoon. It is. It really, really is. It really is. And so it will make our actual honeymoon if we ever take one, if we ever are allowed to get on an airplane again. Yeah, if any other countries allow us to come. Oh, boy.

Like, nobody wants us. And they're right. Yes. They are right. Until these people can put a goddamn mask on yes it i feel like i'm in school where the teacher is like if you follow just a couple of rules recess will happen and there's a bunch of kids the shitty kids that nobody even likes and they're like we're not gonna do it because i'm like i've never wanted to go to idaho nobody wants to go to idaho but

like wear a mask so you can leave idaho you know? Right. You know, and if people in Idaho or Wyoming, and I'm from Nebraska, so I'm not denigrating these places. I'm from the Midwest. But like, if you don't want to wear a mask in your town, I can't, I mean, I do judge you. And I can't, but I can't control you. But don't you dare get on a plane and come to where I live when you want to see some ocean. Like you don't get to have it both ways. If you don't want to wear a mask, that's fine. But you keep your ass in Idaho. Yes.

Honestly, I feel like the world is collectively misbehaving. My uncle sent me a video of these three women on a spirit. Like, I guess a spirit airline flight was delayed so then they were like throwing shoes throwing hands fighting with these people and i was like oh so you think fighting with the gate agent is gonna open up the plane faster what is wrong with everybody's cognitive reasoning i think people are losing their minds. I do because they're stressed and worried about the world and thinking that, you know, they're worried about themselves. And I get that. I'm worried because I'm, you know, like half of my income has disappeared because I tour.

Yep. I make my living touring. And I've done so for the past six years. And to not be able to tour right now, I mean, things are, people are figuring out how to do virtually now, which thank God, but still it's a significant drop. And so I'm really worried, like come January, I don't know, things are going to get real rough. And yet I don't use that as an excuse to take it out on other people. And you see all these white women, mostly, throwing these really wild tantrums in Starbucks and grocery stores.

And I'm not wearing a mask. Like, okay, typhoid Mary, that's a choice, choice but okay and i think it's because it's the only thing in their control i also think that my therapist was like yes people are losing control so they're trying to figure out ways to gain control again and black people were getting in on the action because those three women were black women who were losing their minds at spirit airlines i don't even know why or how it started. I just know it was like a delayed flight. And I was like, I can't.

We all have to just do a little bit better. It would be so nice if people fully, like in the beginning of quarantine, when everyone thought it was gonna be like two weeks and people were behaving, I was like, let's go back to that time. That was good. We all were in this together. And there was commercials that was like, safer at home. We're in this together. And now it's like those commercials are gone. They're like, it's a free for all. Do all were in this together. And there was commercials that was like, safer at home. We're in this together.

And now it's like those commercials are gone. They're like, it's a free for all. Do whatever the fuck you want. It's interesting to see how different parts of LA are responding. So here in Inglewood, everyone wears masks. And what I appreciate about my people is that I have seen some of the most amazing and stylish and interesting ass masks I have ever seen in my life every day like when I'm running errands I'm like that's what's up that's what's up but then I go to Beverly Hills oh baby and it's a mixed bag some people are

wearing masks some people aren't and most like you know there's a certain demographic that more than others is not like engaging in in masking and i'm like do you think your money is somehow a covid shield because that's not how any of this works no it truly doesn't i uh on the where am i i'm on the east side so like it's a it everyone's being like mostly good it was just when restaurants opened up again I think like the east side's very like hipstery scenery like going to brunch and what not so

you know everyone wants to be seen at brunch so they're not wearing their masks they're sipping their you know champagne they're eating their moldy squirrel jam and I've never liked squirrels you know, champagne. They're eating their moldy squirrel jam. Girl. I've never liked squirrel, and I felt so validated when that came out. If you don't live in L.A., there is this, like, gentrifying restaurant called Squirrel on the East Side that came, shut down some other restaurants near it, and it has come out that this trendy place is serving people

moldy jam in jars of jam that cost 22 fucking dollars wait a minute excuse me what it doesn't really cost 22 dollars let me double check to make sure that i'm not lying but i truly i like looked it up and i was like these are 22 dollars is crazy. I can send anyone who wants to make some goddamn jam a little recipe, and you can make jam for about $6. And that includes the glass and the materials and the electricity to make your little jam. Oh, okay. I'm a liar. So this one is $15, which is still a lot of money for some jam.

I have heard of squirrel i have never been to squirrel i you know when i do meetings in silver lake it's always at um it's a coffee shop that's really beautiful on the inside and intelligentsia not that one it's it's not that cool it's like la coffee maybe something like that and it's kind of glitzy and i've always like people have always suggested squirrel but i went online to look at the seating at squirrel and the seating is too small and uncomfortable and i was not going to put myself through that while i'm trying to like pitch myself for something like it's not happening but now that i know that they sell 15 jam what the mold that's also an interesting thing that like i when i get seated at a table will like very quickly scan the table to be like where will my butt fit which which seats best from a butt

because anything with arms is not good for these hips. No, it is not at all comfortable. And, you know, when I was younger and heavier, I would actually suffer. I would like not want to, A, bring attention to myself or, you know, make my challenge anyone else's problem. you know make my challenge anyone else's problem and so i would like sit in in these tiny chairs and just like lose circulation and bruise the shit out of myself but now i'm just like nope you better arrange for an armless chair to be there or they better have real wide arms because i even if i'm sitting here for five minutes i I am not going to suffer for you. Not fun. I was once on a plane and I can't remember where I was flying back from, but I had an exit row seat. And this was an exit row seat where the the armrests were metal.

So it was like a metal box seat. And I sat in it and I was like, oh, my God, this is like reshaping my fucking body. But then I was like, do I want to be squeezed and have leg room and then i was like oh i don't want to cause them to like reseat me and then it's a whole thing it was like oh why did you move oh i'm too fat to sit in the seat i was like i can't deal with that and that was years ago now truly when i get on a plane i'll be like i'm so sorry i'm very fat uh so then it's like great we already started out and you feel bad so you'll leave me the fuck alone but I just remember getting off that like five hour flight or four hour flight being like I hurt so bad I cannot believe how

tight that was yeah oh I I air travel used to be incredibly fraught. There were years where I just stopped doing it because I couldn't afford two tickets. And so I just drove everywhere. And I remember one time I was seated in an exit row and it was there was enough room because I was in the exit row. And this old white man next to me was deeply unhappy that I was in the exit row. And he asked me if I was going to be able to do all of the things on the card if the plane were to crash. And I actually was like, can you? Because I mean, he was elderly. And he ended up holding up the flight for quite some time. And it was one of the most humiliating experiences of my life. And so when I got to a certain point in my career, I actually only travel first class

now so that I don't have to deal with and people who want to fly me somewhere. I just say, you know who the fuck I am. So either you can afford it or you can't. And I respect it either way. I do because I'm happy to stay at home. I love my house. So, you know, these are these are my terms. And fortunately, I can say that.

And but it shouldn't be that way. You shouldn't be able to buy your way out of bigotry. Yeah, it helps. But everyone should be free of how small airplane seats are and how restrictive the policies are and how cost prohibitive they are like it shouldn't be a privilege to to be comfortable on a plane yeah it's fully insane and i feel like seats on planes used to be bigger i don't know they did i'm sorry but they used to be right they did and now slivers of seed. They're like whispers of a seed. They're just like pretending. They're like, this is a seat. Come on now. Like we were in Egypt for our winter holiday this year. And that's not a bragging thing. Just we were there and it was awesome.

And we had to take a flight from Cairo to Luxor. were there were no first class seats. It was all coach. And I was like, Oh, my God, what am I gonna do? And I was freaking out. And Debbie was like, it's gonna be fine. I'm with you. No one's gonna fuck with you, because I will kill them. And I was just like, I don't know if this is gonna work out. And I got in, and I sat down and you know, it was snug, but it was fine. But I looked around and I was like, this is an old ass plane. And that's why I can sit in this seat. Like this, this should be the norm. Like it shouldn't be that like people worry.

And even to this day, I have anxiety when I board a plane, no matter what. Yeah, I have a little. It's not really anxiety. I just know that when because also I'm a diamond medallion diva on Delta. I fly a lot. And I know when you line up to get on first class or diamond medallions, you get on the plane first. get on first class or diamond medallions you get on the plane first i know that everyone is staring at me because i usually am wearing a sports bra a hat no makeup and i i don't look like a person who can afford to travel that way or deserves to travel that way which is an insane sentence

so i feel people staring at me and sometimes uh gate agents will go, oh, we're only boarding first class. And I go, well, I'm so sorry. I'd love for you to look at my ticket and then say something. And they're like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry, blah, blah, blah. And then sometimes flight attendants treat me one way until they look at their manifesto or whatever where it has your name and they'll recognize my name. And then all of a sudden it changes and they're kind to me and they're nice to me and you're like oh this is insane i bought the same ticket as this person next to me who you're kiki-ing with and you know you're just like oh i'll do x y and z but like you're just fully ignoring me until yeah it's just planes in general is just another way to

keep classism alive. It really is. I mean, few things have been as illustrative to me about class and access as travel. Because like you, I travel enough that I'm Diamond Medallion. And I also am Executive Platinum on American. Like, I'm always on a plane. Girl, in the air! Fuck United.

I don't have status on United. I'm like the lowest tier on United because I hate them that much. I'm like, no, I don't even think I'm silver. I might be blue. It's really sad. But the way that they treat you and for me, sometimes like and happens weirdly like that a passenger going on the plane sees me seated there and says, oh, my God, I love your work. And then people notice that I must be worthy of kindness or human like consideration and everything changes.

Or they look at the manifest. But the sort of apathy and or indifference or disgust that they demonstrate until they realize that they can't do that is just it's very it's painful, for lack of a better word. And thank God I have a therapist that I can process all of this with, because it's not something you can like go cry about on Twitter because people are going to be like, oh, wow. And they're right. Like given the terribleness of the world and the crises people are facing and the looming eviction crisis, like, no, let's not worry about this. But fortunately, I can engage with a mental health professional about sort of what it does to your self-esteem and sense of dignity that you have to prove your worth as a human and all the time, all the time. And you know what, even when the airline people try and engage me when I'm standing in the line

to board, I just put them like, I just, you know, I'm always quiet cause I'm quiet in real life and I'm polite. And I just like either show my ticket or like my little luggage tag or whatever. But when another passenger has the audacity to police me in the line. Oh, man, I can get real ethnic.

I can get real ethnic. I can get ethnic. I can just be like. It's also talking about this just extensively right now now i'm like oh these people aren't mad at me for being fat they're mad that the seats are so small that they have to be so close to a fat person and i didn't do that the airline did it so you're actually mad at the airline that's trying to make more money off of our bodies it's so it's like capitalism the older i get the more i'm like this is bad yeah the system doesn't work for anyone.

It's broken. As I'm sure you know, like when you start walking into the gate area, people look at you and you can just see that look of like, oh, my God, don't put me next to the fat person. Yep. And I always just think I don't want to sit next to you either. But I have I get it. Like, I don't want to be scrunched next to anyone for five hours, especially for those of us in L.A. who are going cross country quite often. I don't I get it. Like, I don't want to be scrunched next to anyone for five hours, especially for those of us in L.A. who are going cross country quite often. I get it. Like, you paid for your seat and you want to be comfortable and I paid for my seat and I want to be comfortable.

And, like, how do we band together and rage against the airline? I mean, it's kind of like the French Revolution. Like, how do we all band together and rage against the king? Because we are not the problem. Yeah, it's it's so bananas. Oh, wait, I have a question. Have you ever been on dating apps or no? Uh, not much.

I have been on FetLife and which is a website and not an app. And I have been on I did eHarmony briefly many, many years ago. And I couldn't afford it. So I just like was waiting for communications that were never going to come. And I was also very briefly on Match.com. And before I met my partner, I was about to go on Raya. But I've actually never dated anyone online I've put a little profile up and I've waited and hoped but when you're a fat woman and a fat black

woman in particular dating apps are kind of like a wasteland people and I was honest because I didn't ever want to have a first date with someone where they think that I misled them so I put full-bodied accurate pictures and in my bio I was just like I'm fat so that like it doesn't define me but you need to know like if that's not your jelly roll that's totally fine let's not waste each other's time yeah I I don't do terribly on the dating apps, but I also I'm not like succeeding. I just finding people is in person I find is so hard. And then I mean, now it's like, fuck that. Like, you can't go anywhere to meet anybody.

So I just yeah, I feel right now at a i feel like stagnant water where i'm like i want to run i want to be a beautiful waterfall but right now it's like i can't i can't really do anything i saw that match.com i think is doing like corona dating things with like little cute geth togethers with people via some sort of video. So even the dating apps are responding because I mean, listen, people need companionship and that's not going to go away because of a pandemic. So like,

how do you make it work? And so at least some of the apps are starting to respond. I don't know if they're any good, but it might be like love at first sight, you know? No, you know what I'm talking about? Love is blind. Love is blind. I think this is the opportunity for people to really meet some interesting people.

And then, you know, dick them down. Let's go. Maybe I'll like go back and try it i don't know i um it also was like a journey not to like self-love but like self-worth in a relationship with somebody like when i was younger i was like you know what i'm i'm fat so and i'm black and i'm lucky to get whoever wants to pay attention to me and lately i've just been left and right being like, no, no, I'm not attracted to you. You wrote bullshit on your profile

that like I don't give a shit about. I don't care that you love a taco and that's about it. Like you didn't write anything interesting. There's no jokes here. So I think some would say that my standards are too high, but I'm like, I just hold myself to a high standard. So why wouldn't I hold a partner to that standard? We're always told, especially as fat black women, that we should be grateful for any attention and that we shouldn't have standards.

And I bought into that for a very long time. I would say I bought into that until my current relationship where for the first time I got to choose and sort of be in the driver's seat. No, you are not being too picky. Because first of all, this is someone you have to spend time with and maybe intimate time with. So no, you should have the highest of standards. These people are not good enough. You will know when your prince or princess comes along. And yeah no i think the higher the standards but the better besides which are fabulous so thank you um you're open really you said you were in an open relationship how was that your choice their choice how does that come about it's not

that it was an open relationship it's just that it was complicated in and i was free to engage in entanglements to borrow from our friend jada did you watch that listen listen first of all i knew what the red table was but and i would see clips online but i didn't know where to go find the red table because i'm 45 and so i wasn't going to be doing all that work. And I got so desperate on Twitter. I was like, guys, how do I get to the red table? And thankfully, some of my younger followers sent me the link. And so I did watch the shit out of that with Will and his devastation. Oh, my God.

He that man was so sad. And I was like, what does she have on him? Right. Why is he staying in this? Why are they choosing to a bad marriage for life? Why does she look like she's thriving? I mean, she looked real happy. Now, I've heard so many rumors about the two of them.

And I'm not even going to get into the sexuality rumors. But I mean, Will has had his fair share of rumors about other women that he's been with during their marriage. So if Jada was getting hers, you know, do what you need to do. But like, y'all, when you're at the point in your relationship where you're just getting back at each other over and over again, maybe it's just time to be friends. Maybe it's just, you know, like this, you raise two beautiful, intelligent, engaged children and you seem to be great friends. And like, maybe this is enough and you can go and develop other intimate relationships with other people without, you know, damaging each other. Like, I don't think it's something I think I believe in marriage very firmly. My parents have been married for 47 years.

I believe in marriage very firmly. My parents have been married for 47 years. But I also believe that happiness is important and that a bad marriage is not a good thing. Like, you're not going to get any points in heaven for staying in a bad marriage. I just don't. So I actually never exercised my right to see other people until I started dating Debbie. And then the other relationship, I ended it within a week or, well, actually she dumped me, but within a week of meeting Debbie, things were, it was complicated, but we're still friendly.

And not to get super, super into it. Cause it seems personal, but do you think that you were allowed to see other people as a means to an end? Yes. No, no. I think it was more just that until they could be fully engaged in the relationship, it was like it's only fair that you can see other people who might be able to give you the things that I can't presently give you. And so I don't know that it was a means to an end. I think it was an accommodation in terms of fairness. But I'm a one-person person.

I, you know, whether it's a woman or a man, I'm bisexual, I can only do one relationship at a time. I don't have the emotional bandwidth to take care of two people other than like myself and my partner. Like that's enough for me. Yeah, I don't know how people date multiple people and like see a different person every night. I'm like, that's like a second job. That's a lot of work. When I watch all these shows about the people in polyamorous relationships, you know, first of all, whatever works for you, I'm so happy for you. Like, do you, I have no problem with it. I think it's great.

But like when you're like scheduling, I'll take Wednesday, you take Thursday. I'm like, well, what are you just going to sit down and watch TV? This seems like a lot of work and I don't know. It's just not for me, but I admire people that can do it. Yeah, same. I when I'm just not even serious with somebody because I've only been like one like real serious thing when I'm just like dating someone for a couple of months. Usually I stop looking for somebody else because I'm like, well, I'm traveling. I have my career.

I'm working and I'll just pay attention to me and you. And that's not the case with the people I've dated. They're like either dating somebody else or they're like not looking for something serious. So it's just it's so exhausting. Is it hard to date here in L.A.? I think so. I think it's very hard because I think people do try to keep up with appearances. I think people are influenced a lot by what their friends say. And I've never been like fetishized. I've never had someone be like, oh, these roles are for me. I need to come between your fupa and your whatever, you know.

Who among us but i've had men like just like touch me in a way where i'm like you love this but you're not affectionate in public i think that's something i wish more people understood, you know, despite my best efforts, I've never had a point in my life where I did not attract male attention. It may not have been the attention I want. It may not have been kind attention. But if I have ever, at least I may not have had a good relationship, but I've always had access to sex. And one thing I don't think people realize is that there is, there are a lot of men who enjoy a big woman. Yes. And what's heartbreaking is that they don't enjoy us in public. And I'm like,

if you can't love me and all of me at brunch or amongst your friends, then no, what you, the, like the way you treat me like a queen at home behind closed doors, that's not enough. It's simply not enough. Yeah. And I think I've been like disillusioned because my dad was so my dad was very dark, like pretty muscular, rode a bicycle, played tennis, was very active. And I grew up in this all white neighborhood.

And when i got older i was like oh my god my dad was these women's black fantasy because they would drive by our house and be like hi trevor how are you and he would do yard work and bike shorts so it's like his big black dick was just out for these white women and then had my fat mother so i was like yeah i of course i'll get somebody attractive my dad was conventionally attractive of course and then you grow up and you're like oh not that this was an anomaly but this is not the norm in the real world so like I brush up against like yeah I deserve someone I find hot and then society is like actually you don't. And I'm like, wait, this is confusing. It's very confusing.

And, you know, I think it's an active for me. It's a daily reminder. Like I deserve to have a hot partner and someone I find hot who finds me hot in return. Because I certainly have moments where I'm just like, oh, man, I'm so outclassed here. And especially, you know, L.A. you know la i love la i love it here but it it is it can be really challenging because it's everyone is so beautiful and thin and like obsessed with fitness and like you go to meals with these people and like it's one of the few places i've lived and And it's not all Angelenos.

Before y'all send me your crazy ass emails. But a lot of times people leave carbohydrates on the table. They sure do. I'm like, it's the one place where the bread basket is overflowing at all times. And it's just hard. And then when you go out with someone who is conventionally attractive and thin. And people look at you like people, especially because we're in a lesbian relationship, people don't always think that we're a couple. They often sort of think that we're friends or maybe coworkers.

And I'm just like, we're holding hands. And she just kissed me like what do you even when you give them ample evidence they're just like someone who looks like that can't be with someone who looks like me and it can be really it can do a number on the self-esteem this is so funny i am now real so so she is a made as one of my best friends in the whole wide world and we vacation together and it we always are like nobody ever thinks we're dating and we get like offended by it and now it makes sense because she's conventionally beautiful and i'm fat and it never occurred to me i was like these people are just homophobic like i for so long i was like it must be homophobia because like when we when we travel together, people never think we're girlfriends. Like, even when we told one of our guides in Egypt that we're a couple and getting married,

he was like, so how long have you been friends? And not he wasn't being euphemistic and using friend for girlfriend. He genuinely did not process the information. And I just thought, okay, all right. Well, you know, that doesn't negate our truth regardless, but it can, it can be really wearing because then you just think, oh, maybe they're right. And I'm lucky. And I should be grateful for this instead of like, maybe we're equally lucky to be with each other like nobody ever thinks that like she's the lucky one and oh man that's where it just it's hard yeah that sucks that the emotional labor that you have to do as an other in this society is brutal and it's exhausting and it's a heavy load to just keep being like i am worthy i do deserve this i'm just as valid as any other i'm just as valid as a

person who's 100 pounds yeah it's and i just want to like write cool shit and be funny and you know hang out with my friends and be a good daughter and a good partner and y'all have me doing all of this work so i do all of this work for 20 hours a day and then maybe i have an hour a day to do like the work that actually pays it's not nice no it's not well that being said we've come to the end roxanne thank you so much for doing this talking to you is always a delight i usually ask all my uh all my guests this sometimes i forget but would you you date me? Oh my God, I would absolutely date you. Thank you. I love I love when people say that they would date me. It makes me so happy. I can't believe there's another answer. Oh, yeah. Well, okay, that's a no. Oh, yeah. I've had people say straight up. No.

okay that's a no oh yeah i've had people say straight up no what which is fine i'd rather people i mean that's you know what though at least they tell you the truth and so you can just like yes mark them off like all right no goodies for you do you have anything that you want to promote i think this will come out in like two weeks sure i have a comic series out right now called The Banks. And it comes from TKO Studios, which is also based here in LA. And it's about three generations of black women who are master thieves. And I'm really proud of it. And I would love for people to check it out. Wait, I what is it? The Banks. Okay, I need to write this down because I love that. I set it off as one of my favorite movies and I love Women Robin. Okay.

I wrote it down. Okay. So if you like this episode of Why Won't You Date Me, you can like, you can subscribe, you can leave me a five-star review on iTunes or a one-star. Those are funny too. But if you write me something hitting on me, I will read it. And this person said, I want you on your belly. I want to stick Hershey kisses up and down your backside, put some Kit Kats in your ass cheeks and bite them off one by one. Reach up and kiss you, tasting that delicious chocolate wafer delight. I want to eat a jumbo Tabasco flavored slim Jim

in your cooch. Oh, that might hurt me. Coupled by a hot pickle. Ew. And taste those juices overflowing pickle delight. Well, that was one. Oh my God. Come on. I'm traumatized.

I mean, like wait till the second date. What the fuck? Why are men like this? Why are men like this? I don't know. Why do I even want to date them? The worst one I got was somebody said they wanted to turn me upside down,

fill me with clam chowder and eat the clam chowder out of me. And I think that will stay with me. I mention it so much because I can't get the imagery out of my head. Were they meeting actual clam chowder or was that a euphemism for semen no no they want it like new they said new england style clam chowder oh i wish it was a euphemism for cum but it was not oh oh boy oh i'm so sorry that I've now left that with you. I'm going to be thinking about that for quite some time. Thank you. Welcome to my world.

Thank you so much, Roxanne. Okay. Bye-bye. This has been a Team Coco production.