Why Won't You Date Me? with Nicole Byer - Finally Ready to Confess (w/ BenDeLaCreme)

Episode Date: September 18, 2026

Drag queen icon BenDeLaCreme (Drag Race 6, All-Stars 3) joins Nicole to spill some major breaking news: they've been secretly separated from her partner of 8 years. They talk about the effort it takes to try to stay friends with an ex, the confusing reality of jumping back into the LA dating pool in your mid-40s, and why it's impossible to tell if a guy wants to date you or just wants exclusive Drag Race gossip. Plus, DeLa breaks down her brilliant move to self-eliminate on All-Stars 3, and Nicole reveals the unhinged manifestation trick she used to lock down the nice man in her life.See The Jinkx and DeLa Holiday Show on tour in a city near you! Get tickets and buy the upcoming book at https://www.jinkxanddela.com.Watch this episode on our YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/@WhyWontYouDateMePodcastSupport this podcast by checking out our sponsors:» Squarespace: Head to https://www.squarespace.com/DATEME to save 50% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code DATEME.» Planned Parenthood: Donate to support Planned Parenthood now at https://plannedparenthood.org/defend» Hinge: Try Hinge’s new feature, Friend’s Take. Send your link to the group chat and let the people who know you best do the talking. https://www.hin.ge/WhyWontYouDateMe» Betterhelp: This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://www.betterhelp.com/dateme today to get 10% off your first month.Check out all of our sponsors and discount codes at wwydm.notion.site/sponsors.Follow:All Links: linktr.ee/whywontyoudatemeTour Dates: linktr.ee/nicolebyerwastakenYouTube: @WhyWontYouDateMePodcastTikTok: @whywontyoudatemepod Instagram: @nicolebyerX: @nicolebyerThis is a Headgum podcast. Advertise on Why Won't You Date Me? via Gumball.fm.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Want to watch this episode? Catch the full video on YouTube. Just hit the link in the episode description. This is a Headgum podcast. I recently went to San Diego for a wedding, and the whole weekend was so fun. A few of my friends and the nice man in my life all went together, and because we wanted to make a whole vacation out of it, we booked a home on Airbnb that was right across from the beach. The location was unreal. We were in this chic neighborhood, so close.

close to the venue, so when the reception ended, we didn't stress about getting a ride home. We just walked home together along the waterfront. We were in full formal wear, carrying our heels, goofing off, and trying to outrun the tide under the stars. It was like a movie. The home was awesome. We had five separate bedrooms, so everyone had their own privacy, but we also had this massive backyard with a private pool and a hot tub to hang out in together. And the next morning, we all took a stroll for coffee and found this adorable local artist co-op and vintage boutique. We spent the morning trying on funky sunglasses, looking at cool art, and picking up some delicious pastries from a bakery nearby.

It was a fun little adventure. It was so nice to actually experience the local flavor of the area. Booking a home in a cool location made the weekend unforgettable. So if you're planning a vacation soon, I highly recommend finding a home. on Airbnb. Welcome to another episode of Why Won't You Date Me? A podcaster, me Nicole Beyer, was trying to figure out why I was so single, even though you could come on the floor and tell me that's an extension cord.

My guest today is an iconic drag queen and burlesque performer who competed on RuPaul's Drag Race Season 6 and All-Stars Season 3. You can see her on tour with the Jinksandela holiday show, Touring. in the U.S. and Canada in a city near you. And get her debut book, Jinks and Dela. How's the Christmas? No, my God, I'm fucking this up so hard. How's, how's the Queens made Christmas?

How. Just how. This is How's. That's not me. That's not me. That was Mars fucking it up. Everything else was me. I'm so excited.

It's Bend de laxra. Hi, hi, hi, hi. Hi. Hi. I'm so excited you're here. We recorded, my God. It was 2020. Yes, it was right during that pesky pandemic.

Yeah, I'm so happy to get to do it in person. It was a very different experience. It really is. For instance, now we have to dress ourselves. We have to dress ourselves. We have to look good. Everything is on camera. Wasn't the whole point of podcasts that we wouldn't have to do this?

Yes. Yeah, at least from the ways down. And that's why I got into the podcasting game. Because I was like, I don't have to get dressed, I don't have to wear makeup. And then they were like, no, no, no, no. Now you have to get dressed, wear makeup, and look incredible. Yeah. I'm exhausted.

So, okay, it is a relationship podcast. Let's just like dive into it. Okay, let's get into it. So, is she single? Is she dating? Is she married? Is she divorced? What is it?

Um, so, uh, I actually, what, you know, this is, this is breaking news here for us. I was in a relationship for eight years with my partner Gus. And we, about three years ago, just sort of quietly began to separate our romantic partnership. He's still my best friend. We still work together, produce shows together. And yeah, we just kind of really weren't, it was, it was a long thing we wanted to. to be super intentional about.

It was hard work. Yeah. I would say, like, in the last six years, the things I'm proudest of are creating and, like, blowing up the holiday tour. And he and I, like, successfully getting to this point in our relationship because it required both of us being on board. Now that things are really, like, settled, I feel sort of ready to be more open about it. We've discussed it.

And we're both sort of ready to be like, okay, we're in a solid place with this. The world can know. It's really weird when you're like a public couple. Yes. And like people get attached to your relationship. And I didn't want to deal with that thing people do where they make your breakup about them. And they're like, no. I love you guys so much together.

I'm so sad about this. Right. And it's like, but it's not about you, Diva. Yeah. Yeah, that is interesting. I learned a hard lesson. When was it? It was like 2021.

2021, 2022. I had posted, I was like, I met my boyfriend. And I was just a joke. It was my friend, Dan Black. And people were so genuinely excited. I, like, posted it, went to sleep. And it was like, everyone was so excited for me. And I was like, oh, no. And people are genuinely mad when I was like, I was just kidding. And they were like, I'm invested in your search for love. And I was like, oh my God. I'm so sorry. I mean. You have branded your search for love. It wasn't out of nowhere that they had an attachment to that. I know, but like, my little brain was like, who cares? No, I get it.

But it is, I like that you said that you did the work to like be in a good place to continue working together. Because I feel like it's so easy to leave a relationship and be like, fuck you. I hate you. But then it's like, wait, you loved that person. And it's just a different capacity of love. And it just evolves a little bit. And so like, what kind of work? Did you go to therapy?

Like we were in couples therapy sort of toward the end of our relationship and then we kept doing it afterwards. We like really, we were like, we want to really be intentional about this. We want to make sure we're still communicating. And yeah, so we sort of continued to see a counselor together to figure out, okay, how do we transition our friendship, our working relationship? And because it's the same kind of communication skills, except it gets if you, depending. on the situation, it gets kind of a little easier because you don't need all the things you needed from that person. Yes.

And, you know, both of our, I've never been friends with an ex before. Oh. Ever. Okay. And he has one friend who's an ex, but they started as friends before they dated. So both of our MOs is like light the match and walk away from the burning building. And so I'm extra proud of us both for like, I know that we both had to really fight that urge, you Well, it's hard. I tried to stay friends with an ex, but they were not good at showing up in the, like,

I show up for friends and I expect the same and they were a person who didn't quite know how to show up for people in friendships. It was kind of like, you just didn't hear from them. They would text you. You didn't hear from them. And I was like, oh, I actually can't do that. Yeah. Like, from like us talking every day and being together to like not hearing from you and then hearing. I was like, ah, I actually. can't do that and I'm not willing to do that work. Yeah. And I'm sure that I'm sure that works great for someone else's style. But no, I would not. Yeah, that's not my style. No, I wouldn't be able to that. I like having friends like right up in my life. Yeah. Are you dating now? Don't think I know the answer to that question. Okay. Because the answer is no, not actively and like not even actively looking, but feeling like I'm sort of starting to be ready. It was really,

It's weird when we were in this long, Gus and I were in this long transition sort of out of the relationship because it was just my energy went to my career and to like us working on things. And now that things are relatively settled, I'm like, okay, I feel ready to explore this. But the last time I was single was my mid-30s, now I'm in my mid-40s in L.A. for the first time. A gay single mid-40s man,

single for the first time in a long time in Los Angeles, California, is terrible. And then on top of it, I'm gone most of the year. Yeah. So it's, I don't, I don't know what that future looks like for me, but I know it'll look like something. It's just like, it's, it's slow, it's revealing itself exceptionally slowly right now. Yeah. And it is a tough thing. Did it does travel with you? And still does a lot of the time, yeah. So yeah, you have to, you know, find a partner who, like, wants to travel is okay with you traveling with your former partner. And it's like, that's kind of specific. I have a friend who lives with her parents in her 30s. She's like, they're my friends. I love them. We're like roommates at this point. I talk to them every day when I'm, like, out of town.

And I was like, I like that. If you find a partner, like, do you think they'll live with you and your parents? And she was like, God, no. And I was like, really? And she was like, well, I mean, I was like, but what if you find a partner who, like, is into that? Yeah. That, like, maybe isn't close to their parents, but, like, loves your parents. Like, would you ever think about that? She was like, I've never thought about that. And I was like, I don't know.

You might find somebody who's, like, so into that and loves it. And maybe that's unconventional, but, like, maybe that works for you. I mean, especially if you come from, like, weird traumatic parent stuff when you're young, finding a partner with like a rad family. Sometimes it's like you'll chill with the partner for longer than you know is good for you so that you can hang out with her mom. Yeah, the nice man in my life, I love his family. Yeah.

His sister is so cool and I'm like, I love her. And like it is interesting. Like it's like when I was trying to manifest a person, I was like, I want them to be close to their family. Yeah. Because like I'm, my family lives in. Chicago, so they're pretty far from me. And we try to, like, keep in touch. But I was like, I want family close to me. And I got it. I manifested it, which is nice. But yeah, I want you to manifest. When you read D. Okay, well, yeah, tell me about your manifestation process.

Did it, like, involve, like, crystals and, like, smoke of some various sorts? I burn candles from the House of Intuition. Okay. I love the House of Intuition. And then I just kind of write down what I want. And off-camera, I'll tell you exactly what I do. Okay. And for whatever reason, I want to gatekeep this. I think that makes sense. No, I feel like stuff like that.

I mean, it's like you don't want it to lose any of the power. I don't because it's been working for me. Yeah. I get that. It's so fucked up that I'm like, I'm not telling you how I get anything. I can't wait to find out all about it and also not share it with the public. Yeah, don't share it. When you, so when you became like a public figure, were people sliding into your DMs?

So I think it actually really messed with me because I was before drag race, because my character and I are so different and because we look very different, I was fully anonymous out of drag in Seattle, even though I had a very burgeoning career there. So, like, you know, somebody would be in the front row of all my shows screaming and loving me, and they'd also be my barista and wouldn't know. And I loved that. So then you go on reality TV. That is no longer an option. But what I found is that immediately I was like, oh, this person's flirting with me. And then I very quickly realized when you are on TV, the look in people's eyes when they just recognize you and like you from television and want to be around you.

because you were on television is exactly the same as them wanting to fuck you or date you. Yes. It's very hard to tell the difference. And I learned that very quickly. And it freaked me out because I kept being like, oh, this person's really into me, only to find out that they, like, wanted the inside scoop on what happened on episode, you know. Yeah. And that's tough to be like, do you like me for me?

Yeah. Or do you like me for what I have access to? Right. Yeah, that's tough. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, I'd be on a date and only halfway through what I realized I was actually at a meet and greet. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I've been on dates where people will just ask about comedy or, like, the people I've met. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. This isn't going to go anywhere. And it's like, I want and need you to be interested in my life and my career is a big part of it. But there is, like, there's a difference. There is a difference.

Do you think you could date another drag queen? Do you think you could date another performer? I don't have any hard and fast rules about any of that. Okay. You know, like I feel very, anytime I'm curious, we'll talk more about manifestation after the show. Okay. But like, I generally speaking with dating, with work stuff, with anything else, when I try to have a lot of ideas about something should be, it's almost always wrong. Oh, okay.

I have a really good gut. Like, if I follow my gut, things go great. But I'm also an overthinker. Yes. And so if I like put, and that always scares me wrong. So I never would say never to any of that. Okay. Kind of thing, you know.

I've never dated another performer. And I can imagine that being terrible. But I could also, you know. Imagine it being wonderful. Yeah. Who knows? I don't think I could. date another performer.

Yeah. The nice man in my life, I think it was like our, he just reminded me of this. He was like, yeah, like on our second date, you looked me dead in the eyes and went, do you do comedy? Have you ever done comedy? Do you have any aspirations to do comedy? And he was like, no, no, no. And I was like, great.

Okay. As you're saying this, I think I would enjoy being with another artist or somebody who works like in the field, but not maybe a performer. Yes. It's just one of those things where I'm like, I date men for the most part, and I feel like men are sometimes a little competitive. I date at somebody who, like, took improv classes and would give me notes after shows and, like, punch up things. And I'd be like, I didn't ask for this. Also, our comedic voices are fully different.

We come together on some things, but, like, you don't know how to write in my voice. Like, you can give me a punch up, but, like, if it's not in my voice, I can't use it. Yeah. And like, I have friend, like, Sashira is so good at punching things up in my voice. And so is Mateo. And so is my friend Christy. But, like, sometimes they'll, like, give me, like, you know, a tag or something that I'm like,

oh, that's for you. That's not for me. But he would always give me these, like, tags and punches that were his. That I was like, yeah, if you were to get on a stage and say it, you'd say it like that. But guess what? You're not going to get on a stage. You know? But, yeah.

The nice man in my life now, I'll, like, be like, is this, he gave me one good joke. Because I was like, does this make sense? And he was like, oh, I think you're trying to say it like that. I was like, oh, hey. Isn't that the best? Especially when it comes from somebody who is not at all invested. You're like, I don't need to worry about ever coming across this joke again in the wild.

Yes. Yes. And then he'll like give it to me and then never think. He's not like being like, oh, wait. And like later coming up with stuff, it's like, he said it. It's over. It's gone. He helped me.

Great. He's like, do you want broccoli now? And I'm like, yes. I did because he cooks, which is really nice. That is really nice. He's always trying to give me vegetables, and I'm like, I don't want them. If somebody cooks him good. Yeah.

Is he not a good cook? No, he's a great cook. But I'm just sick of vegetables. What if he cooked all the time, but he was terrible at it, and you were just obligated to shovel his food in for as long as you wanted to stick around. That would be much worse. It would be awful. See, eating broccoli is better.

Ben, thank you. You're right. Eating well-cooked broccoli is better than eating shit. But here's what I get mad about. Sometimes I want to eat shit. So I like food that's maybe not like food that people think is good. Like I love chilies. I love Sizzler, unironically.

Great. I love a buffet. Yes. And sometimes I want to eat like McDonald's. Sometimes I have to be like, can we please just eat McDonald's tonight? And he'll be like, okay. But he doesn't enjoy shitty food. He'll be like, yum.

And I'm like, that's a half-hearted yum. That's tough. I don't believe that yum. I feel like food compatibility is a big one for me. Yes. Yes. Gus and I still travel together all the time, obviously. And we are very similarly snoddy about restaurants. And that's where I want to spend all my money when I'm traveling,

is I want to find, like, the best restaurants. And it's so nice to have somebody else who's like, yes, that is also my priority. And we've made each other worse in that regard. So funny. I love that. Like, now I have a really hard time with, like, I have to, somebody's like, oh, I love this restaurant. We should go here. And I spend like an hour vetting the restaurant before we. It's. I fucking, I go to restaurants based on vibes. Like, for our anniversary, we went to Vegas two years ago. And I was like, can we eat at this restaurant? He was like, why? And I was like, well, look at the decor. And he was like, look at the menu, Nicole.

And I was like, oh, yeah. doesn't look great. He was like, you just want to go for vibes. He's like, but I would like to go eat a nice meal. And I was like, yeah, okay. But that's what Vegas is. Vegas is entirely about your set of what I was trying to say. But we ended up going to this delicious restaurant that I was like, okay, you were right. Well, real quick, we do have to take a break. I pay all of my guests to be on this show, but sometimes they request to donate their fee instead. And do you know the number one place they asked to donate to? Planned Parenthood. And for good reasons. reason. These health centers provide essential sexual and reproductive health care to people who need it the most.

They're out there every single day offering affordable birth control, life-saving cancer screenings, and STI testing so people can safely take care of their bodies and plan their futures on their own terms. But right now, there is a push in Congress to extend the defunding of Planned Parenthood permanently. And we talk a lot about how messy dating is, but you know what makes dating infinitely harder and way more stressful for everyone? Shutting down access to this exact kind of care. But Planned Parenthood is absolutely not backing down. They're still showing up for their patients every single day, making sure everyone can get the life-saving and life-changing sexual and reproductive health care they need. Planned Parenthood needs your help in this fight right now. No matter the size, your donation makes a real difference.

to protect access to care and push back against the members of Congress trying to shut these centers down. Don't let them get away with this. Go to planparenthood.org slash defend and give today. So the entire premise of this podcast started as a way for me to learn

why I was so single for literally hundreds of episodes. I have shared every messy, wild dating story with all of you. But look at me now. I found the, absolute sweetest, nicest man in the world and literally owe it all to Hinge for introducing him to me. Hinge is the dating app designed to be what deleted. It's genuinely built for finding connection

and dating with intention. Setting up my profile felt totally different. I could actually share who I am and have meaningful conversations just like right out of the gate. I think the thing that sets hinge apart from other dating apps is the prompts. I love those prompts. One of them was, who would you invite to dinner? And I think that's just a, it is a simple question, but it's time to get creative. Who would you, who would you invite to dinner, George Washington, and ask him some questions about his teeth, you know, that would be interesting. Or maybe you invite Nosferatus and he comes and he's all wild and stuff. Now that I'm off the market, I am completely invested in my single friends love lives.

And that's why I love Hinge's new feature. Friends take. Your besties can now hype you up directly on your profile. This app worked for me. It can work for you. If you're looking to find a nice person in your life and get off the dating market, give it a try. Download Hinge today.

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you could wake up tomorrow morning and magically be better at one thing, what would you choose? For me, I think I would love to be better and not letting random little anxiety spiral in my head, especially when it comes to relationships. It's so easy to replay a silly moment over and over and over again or overthink a text message or get completely overwhelmed by a busy week where everything feels like a whole lot. Having someone outside your circle to talk to make such a huge difference because your friends love you, but they also have their own lives and their own drama

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Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash date me. That's BetterHELP.com slash. Date Me. Bebop, ba'bop, we're back. Do people still ask you about All-Stars, you leaving All-Stars? Oh my God, yes. Every day, every moment of every day. I really like the move. It's good television. I agree. You know what I mean? Like, it's really good TV. I mean, don't think I didn't know that when it was happening.

I mean, I feel really proud of the fact that I made like a like a, like a, like, a an anti-reality competition move that was perfectly suited to reality to competition tell them. Yeah. Like, I felt really,

that's one of those moments where things just click and you're like, wow, this is, this is a really well-rounded moment. This kind of hits all the things. Yeah. Yeah.

Because it was like, you were crushing it. I really felt like, front runner. Yeah. Goodbye. Like, I went out in this amazing blaze of glory

and then they made me come back two episodes later, like sit in a folding chair and judge who won the season that I literally left because I didn't want to judge who would win the season. Yes, which is very funny. They're like, you're not getting out of it. You're going to choose things. It must be, I've never competed on reality television. It must be so stressful.

It is. I think it's different amounts of stressful for different people. I think it depends on your personality. Like, drag grace cornered the market on my art form. And I was like, you know, you need to go if this is what you do. Yes. This is now the... The stepping stone to like, you have to go through.

Exactly. You know, getting paid. Exactly. And so I felt like I did that in spite of the fact that I am not a fan of reality television. Whereas I know a lot of people go on it specifically because they're like, well, I don't fit the profile of a housewife. So I guess this is the thing I'm going to do? But I can walk in heels, yeah. People ask about nailed it all the time.

Yeah, yeah, there's like, so like, why do they fuck up so much? And I'm like, well, they're a nice normal person. And then we put six cameras in their face. And then I scream at them. I think you too would buckle under the pressure. But that show is so good-natured. And so I adored you as a host of that because it really did. It brings like a positivity to a thing that is easily tips in the other direction.

But I just feel like people go, it's easy. And I'm like, nothing's easy when you throw a camera in somebody's face. Like it's like you might be the best drag queen in the world, but then like you're put on a competition show. Oh, yeah. Where you have to make things and hot. You've hot glued so many beautiful outfits. Thank you. My God.

You should teach a course on it. A show like Drag Race also versus Nailed it has this added element of like, hot glue the thing, do your makeup, do everything as fast as you can. Also, do you know what this person said about you? Also, tell us about when your mom died. Yes. Right? Yes. Simultaneously. Yeah, there's not going on. And I think my least favorite narrative around that like I have received, but I think almost anyone in the public I receives is the, well, you knew what you were getting into. I'm sure you get that constantly. And it's like you actually don't know what you're getting into because everyone's experience is different.

And then, like, you don't realize how, like, invasive people can be. And then at meet and greets, what is the, like, do people, like, trauma dump on you? They do. I will say less so. So, interestingly, as I have gotten further away from being on the show, and I'm getting more and more known for the work that I actually made. make the way people interact with me has really shifted. So post drag race, I think because it's so much of you talking about, you know,

they want you as a boy on camera, that you get a lot more trauma dumping after that. Yeah. Which, like, honestly, I feel uniquely equipped to handle. Like, it did not take that much out of me. Okay. Like, I get in the trauma game real quick in life. And so that actually, I think, made it, like, I feel able to, like, receive a lot more of that and not have it affect me.

But the longer that I've just done my own work and people start coming because they've seen the shows and, you know, now they talk to me about the actual content that I want to put out into the world, right? Like what I'm actually trying to say. So we're still talking about stuff. They're telling me what's important, what's affected them, you know. But it's way more moved in the direction of, whoa, this is what's really positive about. things that are like beautiful and fun in a shitty world as opposed to let me tell you about the

shitty world i'm like i already know about the shitty world but you can tell me about it if you want yeah i feel like uh i don't really do meet and greets as much anymore just because if i'm doing um shows at a club it's like an hour show an hour meet and greet no time the next show starts and then another hour meet and greet and it's like that's what four hours of being on and it feels a little much. So it'd be like, sometimes people will go, oh, do you hate doing this? It seems like you hate doing this. And I'd be like, oh, no, I'm just not as up as I am on the stage. This is like in the middle. It's like there's performance, Nicole, there's meet and greet Nicole. And then there's like, I'm going to stare at the wall at the hotel, Nicole, because I need to just disassociate.

Yeah. Because I've like given a lot of myself to people. And then there'd be people who are like a little too touchy or somebody who's like, you saved me. And I'm like, oh, no, okay, I don't. Even the you saved me is feel like, too much because I'm like, well, it couldn't just be me. You found something inside you that like kept you going. It wasn't me. It wasn't anybody outside of you. And then it's like, well, I don't want to get into that. It's like, I don't want to do therapy right now. I just told a bunch of dick jokes and talked about my vagina. It's like I'm a clown. I'm an actual clown.

Clowns can change lives. Oh, that's nice. Do you ever feel like you get to internalize that piece of it that's like, okay, yes, it was them. They did the work, but like maybe I helped a little. Like, do you get to hold that? Like, I did my book of bikinis. And it's a picture book with very, very silly captions. And a lot of people were like, that meant a lot because we're,

you don't see bigger people, you know, in a bikini, smiling. And we're like, not the butt of the joke or whatever. So I was like, yes, that I can accept. When people say thank you for that, I'm like, yes, that feels nice. And I like that children like it. Yeah. I have so many friends who have sent me pictures of their children looking at it because it's so colorful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I have like a round face, so I kind of look like a cartoon. So they're like, ha, this fun thing. This bubbly person, my goddaughter, she just like sits with it sometimes. So like that feels nice. And that I can internalize and be like, okay, I'm doing the work and I'm putting it out there. Like, that feels good. Yeah.

All right, good. I'm glad you're able to own some of it. Just a little, just a touch. You do so much good in the world. End of the grim. I know you don't like it. I won't get into it. Thank you.

I'll just leave the period on it there. I feel like you do such wonderful work. I feel like you're positive, but it's not like toxic positivity. Do you know what I mean? It's just like good vibes. Yeah, thanks. You know, I feel like it was hard at first to get like TV viewing audiences to understand the kind of drag that I always loved, which is that real separation of character and the person behind the character. Ah, yeah, yeah.

And she is so bubbly and so positive. and I actually, I think it's really fun to write shows for her because it can go any number of ways. Like she can go toxic positive, but then that can be like a commentary on what that is. And you still know it's not me saying that. It's me like illustrating it, you know? But yeah, most of the time it is like really fun to have a character

that is so positive because when you have to play that role frequently, it forces you to, like you have to click out of whatever the hell is going on with you. And when shit's really hard, which it frequently is, and then you have to put on a full face and jump around and smile at people, then it's like you also get a break from that because that exchange is invigorating. Yes. I've said it so many times on this podcast,

but my mom used to say it takes more energy to frown than it does to smile. And I truly believe that because anytime I've been grumpy, if I just smile a little bit, I go, yeah, it is. It is a little bit less energy. And then if like I've had a shitty day but I have a stand-up show, it will automatically put me in a good mood because I'm telling jokes that like have already made me laugh. And then when other people laugh, I'm like, yeah, okay. All right.

Today wasn't so fucking bad. What I have a really hard time. Like when you have something scripted, you have really like solid jokes. You like whatever. It's so easy to pop in there. I will say that I love doing this. there are so many like those days where you have to do a lot of podcasts or whatever it's when that mood strikes and I just have to like have a conversation that's when I'm like you there are some

podcast and I'm on that I'm like I just hope I just I don't want people to see because I was so glum that day and you can't you know you're not talking about it but it's really hard to you're not charming and it's hard yes because it's not scripted yeah and it's like okay well I mean the world is bad and let's talk about that. And it's like, well, we got to figure out maybe how to circumvent that. Well, real quick, we have to take one more break. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand, and get

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But I had really been, like, when I was a little kid, I was living in rural Connecticut, and I would steal makeup from the department store or the, like, whatever you call it, drugstore. where you get drugs. And I would bring it home and I would go into the bathroom and I would do like a full face of makeup, wash it off and then leave like nobody knew. Like my parents said, I'm sure they knew. I was sure I was covered in like cakey eyeliner, right? But I thought I was pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.

But yeah, it was just it was before I knew what drag was, I was into it. And then when I first saw, I feel like, I mean, I saw RuPaul on like MTV red carpets and stuff, but it didn't totally register. Yes. And then I saw the wig stock documentary. And I was like, there's a whole world of people who are like the way I already am. So I kind of feel like I found the container for myself rather than like seeing drag and being like, that seems like a cool job because it wasn't a cool job. It was the worst job. You were never going to make any money.

You would never be well known, and nobody was ever going to fuck you. Like, that's what drag was like in the, like, early 2000s and prior. No one ever going to fuck you. Oh, no, drag queens were unfuckable. Wait, really? Yes. In the gay community? I did not know that.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so early, like, 2000's time is like when Grindr first came out. And it was the height of, like, mask for mask, no fats, no fens, no, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? And so you would go out, like, I worked in all these clubs. I would, like, host on Saturday nights. Everyone was like, oh, my God, they were so into me. Yes.

But the second I wasn't in drag, totally, like, sexually unviable, undidatable. That's so wild. I know. It was super weird. It's a real, like, you really get a crash course in seeing how differently people will interact with different types of people. It's. But I feel like now we will be fucking drag queens. Yeah.

No. since drag race really blew stuff up, it is fully the opposite. Now, people get into drag to get rich, to get famous, and to get fucked. It is fully flipped. It is funny. Sometimes I feel like

people who get a BFA where, like, the Broadway's not working out, they're like, I'll just do drag. I have a lot to say about that in private. in private. I feel like drag is a really, like,

I feel very passionate about drag is its own art form and as like part of a lineage and a history. And listen, I am truly a little woo. And I genuinely think of it as like partially like sort of a spiritual, like, you know, like there's a very important leadership lineage in queer communities. And so to me, it like has to come from a deep place to like really feel it. And many queens are like that. even if they got into it late in life, you know.

But you always can just smell the ones who are like... Yes. Being a chorus boy wasn't working out. Yes, where it's like a stepping stone to what they ultimately want, which I think is interesting. Yeah. How did you... Wait, did you do burlesque or did you do drag first and then get into the burlesque of it all? Yeah, I started doing drag in college, like, sort of...

I went to art school and I started working it into like everything I was doing, which... again, early 2000s, I was a really good student, but there was a lot of like, this isn't high art, you know? And then I would be out in these nightclubs on the weekends, and everybody would be like, your drag is too weird. And so I actually kind of found the right space for myself. When I was living in Chicago, I was living in the dorm with this person who was part of the drag troop, the Chicago Kings. And it was a lot of the drag group, the Chicago Kings. And it was a lot of the way, It was all drag kings. And he was like, you should come, like, be a guest queen with us.

And so I met, I was like, my whole friend group became, like, lesbians, transmask folks, like, and a lot of high femmes who were all in the burlesque world. So that's kind of how I moved into that. And from there on, I feel like it was all just a mishmash. Because then I moved to Seattle where it was like drag kings, queens, burlesque, circus, stand-up, contemporary dance were all. all in the same spaces. I love that.

I feel really blessed to have just kind of stumbled into these really cool, like, liminal spaces over and over again. And I very much think it informed who I am and what I love as a performer.

But when people are like, what's the drag scene like in Seattle? I'm like, I don't know. I can't explain it to you. It's just everything you could possibly want. Yeah. I love that.

I like weird drag. I like weird. I just. love when somebody puts their head on a stage. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Where it's like they can contextualize the thoughts in their brain and then show it to people. And it's like engaging and weird. And I just love that. I want like whatever the art you're making to be the only way that you could possibly express what's happening in here. Because people ask me to like, they're like, oh, talk about your show and blah, da. And I'm like, I can super intellectualize it. But those are my only two

modes are like academia or like, you know, Hannah-Barbera cartoon on stage bopping up and down on heels. Whenever people ask me about my like stand-up show, I'm like jokes, funny, hopefully you feel better after you watch it. I'm like, I don't know what to say other than like, I hope it's funny and you like it. Yeah. I can't really tell, like, do you want me to tell you the jokes? I, because then I'll have to perform and like, I don't know, it's hard to like explain it. It's like you just have to see it. Yeah. Yeah, which unfortunately doesn't sell as many tickets as a solid description. Yes, truly. And also when you're, right, like, I've come up with like a few key like, okay, like, all right, it's drag and it's like kind of a variety show, but there's always a narrative structure and there's like, I don't know. I try to come up with sort of key things to describe it, but ultimately it's like, it's like, it's.

These words aren't what explains it. Just come. Just come to it. You've worked with Dita Vantis. Yes, I just did a show with her. We did a tour of the UK and the Europe this past. God, it started in like February and then it ran through like spring. How did that manifest?

I think she is so beautiful. Her home. It's nuts. Oh, you've been. There's no comfortable place to sit. I can imagine. It's not meant for sitting. It is not.

Her home is meant for like just taking it in and looking around. It's delicious. That is the only way I can describe her home. It is so beautiful. That kitchen! Well, I mean, everything she does. I mean, it really is. It's interesting to now have gotten to know her really well because we've known each other peripherally for a while just from burlesque world.

Yes. And this all came about. We've gone to each other's shows a lot. Like she's coming to the Christmas show the last few years. And we have a lot of performers in common. And one thing that I love, love, love, and respect about Dita is that somebody at her level could very easily just be casting like LA dancers and being like, take off your bra. But she is like tried and true to people who have like been in the burlesque world.

like beating the boards for decades. I love that. I do too. And because of that, and because of my connection, instead of a burlesque world, we kind of formed this relationship. But then touring with her, we obviously, we spent a lot more time together.

And you never know what's going to be like. We had so much fun. But she is all of those that her sort of, it is actually infuriating, it is actually infuriating. Infuriating. Inferuating. Infuriating. Infuriating. I am so glad you're having this much trouble. Mars, infuriating. Inferiating. That is tough. It is absolutely infuriating how effortless all of that is. Like, I mean, you know, there's got to be a lot of, like, effort-front-loaded to, like, get to that point. Yes. But it is like, I mean, we will roll out of a hotel at, like, 7 a.m. to go to the.

airport and she'll be, you know, and I know that she just got up, brushed her hair and put something on and she still looks like she spent like an hour with a glam team. It's crazy. People like that. It really is infuriating. But like the way her home looks and the way it is like that is her. And what she brings production-wise to the stage is like the stuff that she travels with, it's like I didn't know when I'd seen her in the past.

there's like three layers of beautifully draped curtains and these footlights and everything else. She travels with all of it because she's just like, well, what if I don't like the color of the curtain at the venue? Like she's so particular. It's incredible. I love people like that. I'm like, they're like, do you want to do a sound check? And I'm like, does the mic work? If it turns on, I'm fine.

My friend Mateo is like that. He is very much meticulous about the lighting of things. He also was effortless. like, Will, I was doing a show and I was like, hey, can you open for me? He was like, sure. And I was like, can you do more time than I asked you show? And he was like, sure. And me before a show, I'm like going over my notes.

I'm like, okay, okay. He's like, he ha ha. And they're like, Mateo lady. He walks out and he's just like in it. And I never know how. He like snaps in, locks in so fucking quick. It's so effort. And he's so effortlessly funny.

Just, ugh. People like that. And the amount of crowd work that he does is really like watching him do. And the fact that I... He's so quick. And the consistency of it. Like, I can have shows like that. I cannot rely on a show being like that.

I can, like, have a fully formed script. And then if I'm really feeling it, go off script. Yes. But... No, he... Watching him, I've seen him so many times, but he'll, like, have materials. Somebody will say, like, do something in the audience. He'll, like, riff on that for a minute.

Go back to his material. Somehow call back to, like, what that person did. Like, it's... He's... a genius. I love watching him. I love having friends that like inspire me to like not be better, but like be the best. You know what I mean? Like just perform always, like always at the top of my game. Like I just love having those people around. And in a way that feels like inspired rather than competitive. No, no. Yes. Because both of those things. Yeah. It's not competitive at all.

It's just like, oh yeah, that was such a good show. I'm going to go out and I'm going to have a good show too. Yeah. Like I taped a special and he opened for me and he was like, well, I don't like take away from you. And I was like, you're not taking away from me. People are going to be so excited that you're dropping in that like they'll only be even more excited when I come out. I was like, baby, you're working for me. One time I said that to another performer who I was who had brought me into something. And I was like, well, I don't want to do this and this because it. And then as I was saying it, I was like, that is the most present. sumptuous thing I've ever said to be like, well, what if I steal your thunder? Who am I? What? That's so funny. What if people are so excited to see me that takes away from you?

It's like, no, it just adds to it. It's kind of like, I've had openers that I didn't know at clubs be like, oh, was there any material I should stay away from? And I was like, at first I was like, why are they asking me that? And then I'd be like, oh, in case I have the same material. but I'm like, well, if me and an opener have the same material and I've been doing this longer, I should just change it. Like, I just be better. And I think it's wild when, like, headliners are like, yeah, don't do that, don't do that. And I'm like, but why?

Or sometimes headlilers won't let feature or sell merch. And I'm like, but why? You are getting paid more than them. Let them make money. Yeah. They also did work. And the venue is going to take 75% of the merch money anyway. Yeah.

Just let them do it. Your holiday special, it streamed on Hulu, right? So the holiday live show started in 2018, and then when we did 2018, 2019, and it grew a lot just in that amount of time. And we felt like we were really on to something. And then the pandemic shut everything down. And we were like, the momentum's going to die. And so we didn't really know what to do. And I was just like, Jinks, I think we should try to make.

like a movie version of this because I didn't want to just like shoot a thing on stage. Yeah. And so it was totally self-produced, self-funded. Like it was just to think we were just going to release it on Vimeo and like hope someone saw it. And then, yeah, and then we, somebody from Hulu reached out and was like, I, you know, a nice homosexual had like watched it on Vimeo. A nice homosexual. And yeah, and so Hulu wanted to license it.

So it was on there a few years. Now you have to buy a rent at jingsendala.com. But worth it. I watched it. I thought it was so fun. I've also seen it live. The two of you worked together so well. Oh, thank you.

How did that partnership come about? Jinks and I met before either of us was on drag race back in Seattle. In Seattle, yeah. Yeah. And it was, this is something I wind up talking about a lot, but I think it's significant. You know, it's one of those things where we met each other and I'd really never met another queen, close to my age who is doing something similar to me in that kind of comedic, theatrical, kind of classic camp vibe.

And I think both of us had heard about each other from other people. And then when we first saw each other, I think we both had very similar reactions, which is, whoa, this person's really good. That's really exciting. I didn't know there was another one like me. Wait, there's another one like me. I have to kill her. It was both of those things at once.

And so it was like we had to kind of figure that out and be like, okay, we're going to, it's not going to be useful for us to be competition in Seattle. So I cast her in my holiday show that I did back then and we started working together then. And then she went on Drag Race and I was like, well, fuck that. I'm going on there too. I love it. I love it. Well, yeah, me too. Don't leave me behind.

Well, Ben. Can I call you Ben? You can call me Ben out of drag. Okay. Yeah. We've reached the end. Do you have any advice for people who are single out there, who are looking for somebody? Or not?

I really, I could use some. I would say that even though currently I'm navigating whatever my new landscape is, I feel really good about the fact that at this point in my life, I'm actually just like, what's going to work in my life as opposed to many. prior years of trying to adjust to accommodate and be like, oh, this person is really great, so I should probably shift myself so that they like me. And I mean, I think it's definitely a harder path to not do that in terms of finding someone. But definitely over the course of my life and relationships, I find that the more I go in not trying to impress someone, the better the situation, no matter how it plays out. I like that.

I also think you're absolutely right. I think not like just being who you are fully and not changing who you are to impress somebody or like, be like, I'm great. Don't you like this? I think that's good advice. And it's like kind of reframing rejection too. Because it's like if you're trying to be a certain person and they don't and it's not working, then you're like, I failed at the project I was attempting. Yes.

As opposed to if you're just being your vibe. And then it's not their vibe. You're just like, all right, wasn't their vibe. All right, yeah, you didn't like it. It's fine. I can move on. Yeah, because if you're like, wait, you didn't like this person I created. This is my work.

This is my work. And what if you stick around and see the actual me? And it's like, well, no, let's not do all that. Exhausting. All right. Ben, do you have anything you want to promote? I sure do. I am, yeah, we're gearing up.

Jinks and I are gearing up for the ninth annual Jinks and Dela Holiday show, which is kind of wild. are touring the U.S. and Canada from November 6th to December 30th. Ooh, wait. How many stops? 30 cities, 38. Oh, my God. 38 shows.

We're closing right here in Los Angeles on December 30th at the Dolby. Oh, at the, oh. Yeah, this is our third year at the Dolby. Love, love, love, love. Wait, that I think is where I saw you. I thought it was at the Orphium. No. We were at the Orphium one year.

I don't know. It's been, listen. It's the 9th annual. But you probably, yes. Probably the answer is yes. I think you saw us at that or if you'm. But yeah, so, and it's a new show every year. And it's, yeah, it's now that we're like this deep in, it just gets kind of bigger and

crazier every year. And, yeah, it's really, and that's one of those things that people come up afterwards. And they're like, the holidays are really hard and this makes it so much better and this means a lot to me. And that's the kind of stuff where you're like, that feeds me. You know? Yes. And then I also, my very first book is coming out and...

Hold it up. Listen, Mike. Do you like it? Isn't it beautiful? My publicist is going to be so mad at me for forgetting it. But look, maybe we can flip through the pages in post. It's a beautiful picture, but like it's done in the style of a picture book. I wrote the whole thing in like Susie and verse and it's, uh, Jingsendala, How the Queen's made Christmas.

And it's sort of like an extension of all the meta stuff we do where Jinks and Dela, it starts as this like sort of kids feeling book. And then they realize that they're stuck in this book and then they have to go from there. And it's very adult. But I think it's very much, it's to me making work that's for those adults that didn't really get to have the full on childhood. Like that's what I'm all about. So I'm really proud of it. The illustrations are beautiful. by this very talented woman named Anika O'Rourke.

And yeah, it's on pre-sale now at jingsendala.com or bendla crem.com. Comes out October 20th. Congratulations. Thank you so much. I love it. She's an author. Now I get to add that to my bio, which is very exciting. I get to say I'm an author too, but like if you really read the book, is she?

Is she? Well, thank you so much for being here. I adore you. I think, I don't know. I said it before. I think your vibe is so incredible. I just like, I don't know. I like when I know someone's heart is pure and good.

What? Well, I feel it feels very mutual. I feel like there is like an element of kindred spirit happening in that regard. I agree. I like meeting other people who, like, bring the positive, genuine vibe to a world that doesn't always want it. A lot of people are negative in a way that, like, sometimes I'm like, oh, you can stay home and complain. I simply don't want to hear that. Please.

This is awful. Well, if you like this episode of Why Won't You Date Me, you can like it, you can follow it. You could rate it five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. You could tell a friend, recommend the show on Reddit. That actually helps the show out, even though sometimes Reddit is a mean place. And if you write me something nasty hitting on me to Why Won't You Date Me Podcast at gmail.com, ooh, baby, I'll read it. This person writes, Nicole, if you would do me the honor of going on a date with me, I would take you to see a matinee of one night only before going to Little Dums on a Friday to order lasagna.

That's lovely. We'll talk about how deeply puritanical American culture is, then talk about all of our favorite nasty little sex acts. Afterwards, we'll go to my house where Vin Diesel's already hanging out at, where Vin will honk honk your tities. Well, I tongue your clit and finger blasts you until you squirt all. over Ben and I. Thank you. Bye-bye from Anonymous. Thank you, Anonymous. That was nasty. To-de-l-l-l-oo. That was a hate gum podcast.