Why Won't You Date Me? with Nicole Byer - The Dark Reality of 'Skinny Privilege' (w/ Nava Kavelin)

Episode Date: November 28, 2025

When Nava Kavelin (host of Podcrushed) lost weight at 16, the shift in how the world treated her was immediate and jarring. She went from being invisible to having 10 boys aggressively pursuing her. She joins Nicole to unpack the complicated resentment of suddenly becoming "visible" to people who previously looked right through you.They get into why reciprocity is the bare minimum for a good relationship, the misery of dating someone long-term who won't commit, and how soap operas like Passions warped their brains into thinking it’s okay to chase people who don't like you. Nava also shares the time she downplayed her Baha'i faith for a Southern Baptist boy who turned out to only be interested in converting her.Plus, the shocking research she uncovered at the UN about how media impacts girls of color - they are sexualized as young as 3 years old, and unchecked access to porn is normalizing violence for teenagers.Meanwhile, Nicole attempts to connect with the youths, and recounts the wild, slightly racist routine she saw at Criss Angel's Las Vegas show.Heads up: This episode contains spoilers to Netflix's You.Check out Nava's new book, Crushmore at simonandschuster.com/books/Crushmore/Penn-Badgley/9781668077993Watch this episode on our YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/@WhyWontYouDateMePodcastSupport this podcast and get discounts by checking out our sponsor:Squarespace: Head to squarespace.com/DATEME to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code DATEME.Follow:All Links: linktr.ee/whywontyoudatemeTour Dates: linktr.ee/nicolebyerwastakenYouTube: @WhyWontYouDateMePodcastTikTok: @whywontyoudatemepod Instagram: @nicolebyerX: @nicolebyerNicole's book, #VERYFAT #VERYBRAVE: indiebound.org/book/9781524850746This is a Headgum podcast. Follow Headgum on Twitter, Instagram, and Tiktok. Advertise on Why Won't You Date Me? via Gumball.fm.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Get a savory and sweet sausage egg and cheese McGrittles. Plus hash browns and a coffee. Only at McDonald's. For limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery. I had a friend whose dad died, and she's kind of a public figure. And when her dad died, she lost like 30 pounds, like, you know, the grief, whatever.

And she said that she's never been more said and asked out on more dates. So she was like, it wasn't just that I, because sometimes you're like, well, when you're more confident, you project a more happy energy. She was like, I was miserable. And men were asking me out all the time. Oh. And I was like, oh, that's so fucking sad, but it's true. It is. Why won't you date me?

Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Please tell me why. Oh, baby. Welcome to another episode of Why Won't You Date Me, a podcast for me and a co-buyer. trying to figure out why I was so single, even though you could come in my hand and tell me it was Moose. My guest today is the host of the podcast Pod Crush. Her debut book, Crushmore, Essays on Love, Loss, and Coming of Age is out now. I've read bits and pieces of this book,

and it's so special, and it's so wonderful. And I feel like a lot of people don't, like, reflect about the good and the bad of growing up, just a lot of the bad. Anyway, it's Nava Gavlin. So excited to be here. Thank you, Nicole. Thank you so much for being here. In the book, you write about losing a bunch of weight and then the boys, like more boys confess that they liked you.

Yeah, yeah. Is that something that stays with you? Yes. So I, the summer that I was 16, I got really skinny. not totally in an unhealthy way and then at some point in an unhealthy way and I kept it off for a year. It could just be a coincidence,

but prior to that, I think I'd had one boy tell me that he liked me and then that summer 10 boys told me. I was like, oh my God, like being skinny really, I think just you become visible to people. It's even just like people see you. So I'd like all these boys reaching

and like really aggressively pursuing me. And then when I gained the weight back, it just like the numbers went down. So I was like, oh, there's definitely a corner. correlation between being skinny and being desirable. And that has always stayed with me because sometimes if I'm like struggling or I feel like I haven't been asked out in a while, I'm like, well, if I got really skinny, it's like putting that. It's like, well, it's my own fault because I'm not really skinny. Like, that's

how I've internalized it. Like, I could be getting this attention if I like put in the work to get down to like a size four or, yeah, which I know is really unhealthy. But that's definitely how I internalize that experience. I don't necessarily think it's unhealthy. I think it's what we've just been served. Yeah. And I've lost weight with the help of Manjaro. I don't know why I need that qualifier. I just don't want anyone to think that I did it on my own because I needed help.

Yeah. Because she was diabetic. And on planes, because I've traveled a lot for the last several years, nobody would ever help me with my suitcase. And then all of a sudden, men would like leap at, like, and I'm not the skinniest person, but I'm smaller now. Yeah. And men, like, leap at the opportunity to help me.

And, no, it's true. The first couple times it happened, I, like, snatched it back. And I was like, I can do it. And then I was like, oh, my God, why was I so mad? And I was like, oh, I'm mad because I was a fat ghost. And now I'm a less fat mirage where they can see it. I don't know. I don't know.

But it's so weird. Yeah, yeah. It is weird. And it, but it's definitely true. I had a friend who we've all had dead parents. So I feel like comfortable talking about this. I had a friend who's dad died. And she, she's kind of a public.

figure and when her dad died she lost like 30 pounds like you know the grief whatever and she said that she's never been more said and asked out on more dates and so she was like it wasn't just that I because sometimes you're like well when you're more confident you project a more happy energy she was like I was miserable and men were asking me out all the time oh and I was like oh that's so fucking sad but it's true it's it's so wild I moved to new york when my dad was still alive and then I did a lot of cocaine I was staying awake a lot I was not spending money on food. And I lost like 60 pounds in a year. And my dad picked me up and was like, whoa, you look great. Whatever you're doing, keep it up. And I was like, whatever I'm doing,

keep it up. My dad wants me to do more cocaine. If you only knew. Yeah. It's true. It's true. It's true. Very often we lose weight in unhealthy ways and people don't know what they're encouraging. Yeah. Do you feel like you have a better relationship with your body now? Yes. I wouldn't say that I have a totally healthy relationship with my body. But when I hit above a certain weight, I think about my weight constantly. And then when I drop below it, I stop thinking about it. But it used to be that I was always thinking about my weight and then I never felt like it was good enough except for that one year. I'm not like that now. Like I feel like I can recognize when I'm at a level that I'm happy with. But if I go above it, then my relationship gets really

unhealthy. And I'll have like, really hateful self-talk. Ah, my therapist was like, I mean, this is so simple. And I'm sure you've heard it. My therapist was like, hey, why would you talk about a friend like that. You're your own friend. Be nice. And I was like, oh, man, okay. That is right, because I don't talk about my best friends like that. So why would I talk about myself like that? Yeah. And I bet you don't even like evaluate your friend's weight. Like I'm never thinking about how much my friend's way. No. I once said to my friend, she was living in Portland at the time. She probably doesn't even remember this. I do, though. But I gained a bunch of weight living in New York. And she was like, when are you going to come out to Portland? I was

like, I don't know, I'm going to wait till after I lose some weight. And she was like, why? I was like, be, I don't know. I don't actually know. I'm so glad she asked you that. Yeah, it's true. And even like giving ourselves permission to like enjoy, have fun, date, be sexy. Like, you don't have to be at any weight for that to be allowed, you know? Yeah. You just live a life. When did you start dating? Did you? Oh my God, so late, which I really regret. I started dating when I was 19. I was such a late, late, late. I don't think that's that late. Okay.

I don't think, well, I didn't have, like, my first proper date. Oh, my God, until, like, late 20s, I don't think. And then, yeah, I, like, lost my Virginia at, like, 19 or 20. All my friends, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say all, but most of my friends, I think in Puerto Rico people start younger. Most of my friends had boyfriends in seventh grade. Seventh grade. So, like, me not having one until my sophomore year of college felt crazy. I just didn't have, I guess I did have the time.

But I was like, I don't want to stay at school. I got to get home. I got to get home and eat mashed potatoes. But yeah, I didn't have boyfriends in high school. Whenever I heard about people dating, I'd be like, what? So you weren't desirous of it? I think I wanted it. And I think I crushed on people.

But I think fundamentally and like, if I really think about it, I don't think I was mature enough to actually be in a relationship. Because I'm in one now. Congratulations. Hey, thank you. He's really, really nice. I can't wait to hear all about it. He's so nice. I mean, there isn't much other than like there's no drama.

And for a long time, I was like, well, I don't know if this is working. Because you're like we're not fighting enough? Yes. And we're not disagreeing. You're not like rolling your eyes at me. You're not annoyed by me. You accept that I'm a late person. You ask if I need more time.

You're really considerate, even though being late is inconsiderate. he asks my opinion on things I apologize too much and he was like hey let's not say sorry anymore like he's so nice how did you meet him I met him on Hinge okay I need to get back on Hinge

Hinge is where I've met most of the people I've dated for more than two months okay Tinder is where I've met garbage people everyone I've met on Tinder has been like just from the dumpster the nastiest of cabbage patch kids the rotten ones

I hate everyone I've met on Tinder. And then Bumble, I do ads for Bumble. We don't have anything coming up. Okay, thank God. Okay. Okay, so Bumble, I've said this before, and I stand by it. I only think a certain type of woman can ask a man out and not seem aggressive, desperate, or, like, needy.

And I think women of color come off as a little aggressive to men when it's the, The whole premise. It's the little premise of the app. Yeah. Yeah. I never had anyone respond to me nicely or I never got a date from Bumble. Are you on any apps? I'm not currently, but I've never had a date from Hinge.

I think I've had one date from Tinder, which was a total dumpster situation. And then I've had a few from Bumble, but nothing that, like, translated long term. The last guy I dated on Bumble, I had just moved out to L.A. He's now in a gay Thruple. It came out on Instagram. and I was like, I always had a, like, I didn't know what. I, like, couldn't put my finger in it, but I'm like, I feel like there's, like, something wrong here. I was like, he wouldn't touch me.

I'm like, he's not touching me enough. Yes. There's something wrong here. Yeah. So, he's living his best life in his thruple. That's so funny. I don't think I could be in a thruple, specifically because I couldn't be in a thruble. I've learned I am needy.

I need attention. Yeah. Yeah. I, this is dumb. One night, he was showing me a seal, a video of a seal. and then I said I can be a better seal so then I

pretended to be a seal on the floor and he just smiled and then when I finished being a seal I was like you didn't say I was a better seal rank us which one who did better he was like well you gotta tell me if that's what you need and I was like why can't you assume

he's like because you what do you mean and I was like oh fair that's amazing so he likes all of this he accepts all of it because I've dated people were there. They don't necessarily like that I'm a lot. And that kind of, it just kind of like crushing you. That's like that Taylor Swift song, tolerate it. Oh, I don't want someone. I don't

remember the whole lyric, but it's something like, you don't want someone who just like tolerates your love. Yes. Wow. I guess I identify with T. Swift. Yeah. So my assistant, Lindsay, is a very good assistant. And she does a little bit of research. And she found that you said the show So Passions was a huge impact in how you've received romantic relationships. Yes, in a bad way. It left a negative impression on me, I think. And I mean, I can't just leave it on Passions, but do you remember that show. NBC soap opera.

It was the first soap I ever watched. Kind of edgy. Yeah, it was very edgy. And it was like a, there was like a witch, Tabitha. But basically there was a teenage love triangle. So it was Miguel played by Jesse Metcalfe, John Tucker. I never met him But it was Jesse Metcalf

I don't remember the Lindsay Something I don't remember The blonde actress's name But basically Charity Kay and Jesse Jesse's name was Miguel So this character Kay is in love with Miguel They're like best friends But she's never told him how she feels

She's like working up the courage to tell him And then this blonde girl charity moves into town And he falls in love with charity But in the show Kay continues to love Miguel And you're like rooting for them Like you're rooting for the person That he doesn't love who becomes too obsessive but I really related to that

And I think it just like imprinted on me that like it's okay to be really interested in someone who's not interested in you like because she was really beautiful and like she's who the viewer rooted for so I feel like in my own life I just started to feel like no that makes sense and then Dawson's Creek it was sort of like Joey

Jen and Dawson had the same thing and I related to Joey and then it came around for them Jen is Michelle Williams Oh okay I never saw Dawson's Creek Yeah so in Dawson's in love of Jen Joey's in love of Dawson and you root for Joe

And then who's Pace he in love with? He's in love with a teacher that he's having sex with. Yes, that's why he comes around and he ends up with Joey. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But that idea of like it's okay for it to not be reciprocal for a long time, that felt really normal to me. And it's taken me so long as an adult to be like, that's not okay.

The literal basic entry point for a relationship is reciprocity. That's like the basic thing. And it took me like an embarrassingly long time to accept that. I mean, I just start. with this person is when I started understanding. I was like, oh, I don't have to chase you. You're straight up, like, saying I like you. And I'm like, whoa, that's crazy.

I've said this before on the podcast, but on our second or third date, he said, nice to see you again. And I said, what do you mean by that? Why did you ask him that? What did you think he could mean by that? I thought he was trying to trick me. I don't know. Like, maybe I would say, yeah, nice to see you too.

And then he goes, just kidding, you stupid bitch. And then, like, hit me with a frying pan. Yeah. I don't know. And I've articulated it to him that I was like, I sometimes think when you say nice things, I think, like, you're, like, trying to get me or something. I'm, like, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

And he's like, there is no other shoe. You're fine. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, are you sure? Yeah. Because I've never been in a relationship where I felt safe to, like, just be me or I felt comfortable in the fact that they like. me. Every relationship I've ever been in, I'm like, do they like me? And I never had the time

to worry about if I actually like them. Exactly. Yeah. And then sometimes somebody liking you is like, you like, you hate it. I don't know why. I know. It's so crazy. I know. It is. It is a little strange. Yeah. So I'm so happy. It's really encouraging to hear that this is where you are because I haven't, like I feel like I've made it out of being comfortable, being treated like shit or the same things being like a mystery for a long time that's not attractive to me anymore but it took a long time but i just haven't found a relationship where i felt safe i've found relationships where i feel bored or confused yes those are like my two main dynamics honestly i feel like if i could do it everyone can do it it just took a little bit of time what do you think helped you prepare or was it

just meeting him therapy a lot of therapy and i have abandonment issues because my parents are dead. And then I have like a, in third grade, Mrs. Hatzinski, she was a lady who hated me. So every morning I had a stomach ache because I was like, I don't want to go to school. That lady just doesn't like me. And then in fourth grade, Ms. Gizzy, both of them said I was an extremist. And I was like, no, I'm not. Because she was like, you write too big.

One of them said I wrote too big. So then I wrote very. That's a crazy criticism. Well, my rebuttal was to write so small they couldn't read it. So I was a little bit of an extremist who lives in black and white. I love that, though. That's just like a good, that's a good rebellion. I was like, oh, too big.

I'll show you. You old bitch, try to read this. You're magnifying glass. But in therapy, I've learned relationships aren't black and white. Someone can feel one way today and another way tomorrow and you can meet them in the middle. And that has been hard, but, like, I can't, like, I understand it now. So a lot of therapy. I think, yeah, a lot of therapy.

Yeah, I need to, I have, and being okay alone. Yeah. Because I was in, like, a situation ship for, like, two years. Yeah. I dated a man for two years who wouldn't be my boyfriend. That's crazy. No, I dated someone last year who wouldn't, like, fully commit. And that's, I'm like, I will never do that again.

Yes. It was a hell. It was, it truly was hell on earth because I was like, maybe on a Wednesday he'll say Yes, exactly. Yeah. But it was like, no. Yeah. And got out of that was pretty sad about it. And then I read this book called calling in the one. Mm-hmm. I've read that. Have you? Yeah, but a long time ago. No, I need to do the workbook. I did the workbook. I only got halfway through. But there was one thing that stuck with me where it was like, are you making things up and then making them come true? And I was like, huh. Yeah. Yes. But then also sometimes I'm not making them come true with that situation. I was making up that this man wanted to be my partner. I fully was making that up because he kept saying, I don't want to be in a relationship right now. And I would go and be like, yeah, but one day he well. When you do, it'll be with me. Uh-huh. And reading that book, I was like, ah, if somebody says something, believe them. Believe it. Another thing, maybe I shouldn't, like, overgeneralize, but in my experience of men, and then I think I've, like, read this to you,

when a man is interested in a woman, he locks it in, like, they want to get exclusive faster than women statistically. Like, they lock it up. It's like they're possessive, they're jealous. So if a guy's not trying to do that, like, you're not his number one choice if you're on the roster, you know? And that is. Yeah. Sad. It's so sad. Yeah. It's like humbling. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also, I don't know how people date multiple people. I've never been like that. Because in the beginning of something, I could be like, all right, I went out with you on our first date and I'm going out on another first date. But if I go out on like a second or a third date, I can't keep up with the other one. Because I'm like, what did I tell them? Am I going to repeat myself? Who, what if I call you the wrong name? No, I'm kidding.

I just like I'm trying to think I've dated I've never exclusively dated multiple people I've like had periods where I was going on dates with lots of people but I think yeah the furthest I've ever gotten is like three dates with two different guys but I just know by the second date which one I like more yes and then it's just like unfair it's just like well let me just keep you on the back burner in case this doesn't work out yeah and that doesn't seem nice yeah dating is mean true for a long time it is it really is because you're like I don't I'm trying to figure out if I like you. Yeah.

Then it's like, no, I don't like you. I'll move on. Yeah, exactly. Like, what? Yeah. My God. Oh, in college, you had a crush on a Southern Baptist boy. Yeah.

Yes. What do you want to know? You found yourself downplaying your own religion to be around him. That's interesting. Yes. So I'm a Baha'i. And what's that? I don't know.

Yeah. So the Baha'i faith is a monotheistic world religion. I think it's the youngest of the monotheistic. of the monotheistic ones. It started in 1844. What's monotheistic? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, we believe in one God. Okay. And basically, like, in a nutshell, it started in the mid-18th century, 19th century. I always messed that up. Mid-1800s, 19th century, in Iran, but is now, like, widespread throughout the world. And the core teaching is the idea that humanity evolves in stages, sort of like how human beings have different stages of maturity of, like, childhood,

adolescence, adulthood, and that humanity has had like a very prolonged childhood and we're on the cusp of, we're sort of like teenagers on the cusp of adulthood, but to become adults, like for humanity to really thrive, we have to let go of discrimination and like these various forms of prejudices and we really have to change like all this, all the kind of institutions and systems of governance to reflect like oneness and to not prefer like one group of people over another. So I feel like most Baha'is have like a sense of purpose around. like community building and like creating more justice and prosperity for all people. I like that religion because it really explains by people be acting up.

Totally. Yeah. It's like you're a child. You're being childish in a way. And if you look at like the world leaders a lot of them like they're toddler, more dangerous, like very dangerous, but they feel like children. Yes. Children running in the world.

Especially the one we have good fucking Lord. Yeah. So that's sort of, so I grew up high and like pretty like openly like was never ashamed of it. And then I met this Southern Baptist guy. I won't say his name, but, oh my God, I just, I shouldn't say, I just Googled him the other night. I'm not, like, super wealthy. I googled him the other night because I had written about him in the book. I hadn't thought about him in, like, 18 years.

And it, like, he's very private, but there was, like, a white pages listing, and it listed his home. And, of course, I clicked on it. And his home is worth $7.5 million. Whoa! Maybe I should have converted to Southern. No, no. Wait, and I would have gone a step further. I am a true stalker

and I'm nosy as fuck I love knowing things I would have plugged it into Zillow to see when it was bought to see if it appreciated where we got a deal on it I know yeah oh my gosh

such a good point no it's a terrible point yeah I just clicked on the thing but anyway back to this rich guy in college so he was Southern Baptist blonde green eyes beautiful

thick southern accent like Matthew McConaughey and I was obsessed with him That's the first time I've ever been, like, obsessed with a person. And I did tell him my religion, like, a couple weeks in, and he stopped asking me out. But then he started inviting me to church things. And then I started going.

And it's like, he's just trying to make me. Trying to convert you. Yeah, see if I'm, like, open to converting before he's willing to date me. But I was like, I knew I would never convert. Like, that I was like, I don't have any. There's no part of me that's, like, curate. Like, I'm, like, I'm a Baha'i. Like, I really embraced that religion.

I've read about other religions. Like, I came to that choice really consciously. So I was just going to like spend time with this guy So it was like messed up on both I think it was messed up on both on both ends But yeah he wouldn't give me a shot Because I wasn't Baptist Which is wild

Because it's like you're not getting married Just have a nice time Yeah we were like 19 We could have just like gone on dates If it gets serious then it's like hey I really want to be with someone who's like a part But I don't know Your religion sounds so literal and nice

Oh thank you Or Christianity You can take parables and stories And twist them however you want Yeah I don't like that It's true. I mean, the Bible has been used to justify so many atrocities.

Yes. Yeah. And I simply don't get it. And then some things are taken literally and some things are, oh, that's just a parable. And I'm like, yeah, but how do you get to pick and choose? Why do you get to pick and choose? That's why I stopped going to church. Yeah.

That makes sense to me. Not for me. Yeah. Let's take a break. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I love when someone sends me a link to their website, and it looks gorgeous. And I'm like, oh, my God, who did this for you? And they're always like, girl, Squarespace.

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with a series of wonderful men that you rejected for banal, banal reasons. So were you in relationships with men that were like good, but then you were like, oh, the one thing is giving me the ick. I, so I wasn't, I was basically like not dating for most of my 30s because I was like rejecting really nice guys and focusing on guys who didn't like me. Like very emotionally unavailable. I did date one guy for four months. That was like the healthiest relationship that I had.

And I did break up with him. But I don't want to say why because he's still a friend of mine. But I had a legitimate, I had a very legitimate reason for breaking up with him. You say in your 30s. Can I ask how old you are? Is that rude? No, no, not right. I don't know how old anybody is anymore.

Yeah. I just know when I see the youth, I'm like, they're youth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how I know. I'm old. Yeah, same. Yeah. I think I turned 40 this year, but I like to say that I'm 62 or 79.

I don't know. Why? I don't know. Why not? Yeah. Why not? Who cares? It is funny that people obsess with like they want to look younger or like they want to like pass off being younger.

I'm like, you should just tell people you're older because then you'll look younger. Like people will be so impressed. Yeah. I did a shoot last week, and there was a bunch of, like, to me, they seemed like teens, but they were all 25. And they were like, well, how old are you? And I was like, 67. They were like, oh, my God, you look great.

And I was like, you're the hottest 67-year-old we've ever met. And I was like, just kidding. And then one of them had a disposable camera. And I was like, take a picture of me and put it on your refrigerator. That's really cute. I don't know what she did. That's so funny. She probably did.

I bet she did. But it was just so funny to talk to them because I was. I was like, I don't, you're saying things I don't know. Yeah. Like, I was like, what music do people listen to? And then they said a bunch of artists that I never heard of. And I was like, what about Sabrina Carpenter? And they're like, yeah, we've heard of her.

And I was like, okay, all right. That's your like Gen Z. Yeah, that's my bridge to them. Yeah, yeah. That's so funny. Oh, yeah, I'm totally out of touch with what young people are doing, listening to. Yeah, I simply don't know. And I don't know how they find the music.

Oh, maybe on TikTok. Maybe. I'm not a TikTok head. Yeah. Oh, interesting. I feel like you would like TikTok. That's what people keep saying. Yeah.

It's because my phone's not in dark mode. Okay. And I don't get the dopamine I want from dark mode. Yeah. It's like having my phone on grayscale. Yeah, that makes sense. And I don't like it and it makes me upset. That's smart, though.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like TikTok, but I don't post that much, but I do get on there and look at stuff. I should post more, but I don't. I don't. I just don't. I don't have it in me. Yeah. Well, don't do it. You don't need another addiction. It's a lot. What's a red flag for you?

In a guy. Yeah. Lying. If you catch someone lying, I feel like that's really important. Now, a red flag for me is like unwillingness to talk about commitment or to actually commit, depending on sort of where you're at. And if they treat their parents badly, I think that's a red flag for me. That is interesting. because it never, because I don't have parents, so it, like, it never occurs to me. Yeah. And I guess if you talk shit about your parents, I do like, oh, I don't like that.

My situation, chip, so easy to talk to on the phone. We would talk for, like, hours on the phone. Yeah. And the red flag with him was sometimes, if I started doing something, he could tell, and he'd be like, you're not paying attention to me and would get mad at me. And I was like, interesting. Oh, my God. But this man I'm with now, I can talk to him on the phone.

I was in Buffalo, New York, two weekends ago, five shows, three were so great, two, I won't say they were bad, that they did make me question whether or not I'm going to continue comedy. Okay, so pretty bad. I got to the hotel after my late Friday show and stared at the wall for 15 minutes, and I was like, do I show up tomorrow? Did it, like, did things bomb or why did you feel that way? So the first show killed. It was really fun, really great. I've done these jokes for about a year and a half, maybe two years now. And then the late show, they just...

So I bring this woman with me, Liz. Liz is a killer. Liz is so fucking funny and her jokes are so well written. Some people don't like bringing somebody funnier than them, but I think it makes me, like, try harder. And I'll write more because I'm like, oh, man, Liz is going to be there. Gotta keep up.

I got to, like, maybe put a tag on. something and then my friend christie has a funny voice and sometimes she'll sing for 20 minutes like you never know what you're going to get but it'll be goofy so i'm like great jokes goofy if you don't like those two you're not going to like me yeah and during christie's set during liz's set there's this one joke that i know if they don't laugh i'm not going to have a great set and that joke hit and they were silent and i was like oh no yeah then christie went out there and i hear from the green room I want to kill myself. And I was like, okay.

And then I get out on stage and I'm like, working. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I was working so hard. Like just doing extra stuff. And then I did a trick. So I always have my set list next to me because I have decided that I'm going to be kind to myself. I'm a forgetful person.

Yeah. There's no need for me to panic. If I can't remember what's next, it's there. Yeah. So I had my notebook and a joke did not. hit that usually hits. And I went, huh, maybe you guys will like this. And I, like, pointed at it, it's just next to my set. Yeah. And it made them feel special that I was trying something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just the joke I was going to do next, but I added, maybe you'll like it.

Yeah. And then they liked it. And then I kept doing that. And I was like, okay. And they weren't bad. It was just interesting. And at the end of the night, I was like, you guys have been interesting. And then I was doing crowd work. And I was like, I like the crowdwork. more than my material. Interesting. And that never happens. Yeah. And I was like,

but now I have to go back into material. Yeah. And then they were like more on board. And then the Sunday show. Wow. I did a tight 48 minutes. I usually do an hour.

Mm-hmm. But I looked at my little timer and I was like, I can't. That's all I have in me. I actually physically cannot be in front of these people any longer. Oh my gosh. And then I was like, I think I stared at the wall for like 20 minutes.

And then he called me and the nice man in my life. And then he said a. joke and I said, ha ha, and he went, are you, oh, and I said, I'm so sorry. I don't have laughter or joy inside me. Yeah. I think I feel in a terrible mood. And he was like, it's okay. And then we talked for like an hour and it did bring me a little bit out of my mood. And he was like, hey, just want to say, you were in a bad mood and I can handle that. But like, you're not, like you weren't as mean as you thought you were. And he's like, it wasn't directed at me, so it's okay. And then that moment I was like, oh, I can call him when I'm down.

and he'll accept it and not try to like make me feel better or make me feel worse. Yeah. And I don't think I've ever dated anybody like that. Everything you're saying about him is like green flags. I'm like, put a ring on it, Nicole. He's a giant green flag.

So wonderful. He really is. I can't say enough about him. He's so nice to me. I love that. I'm so happy for you. Girl, me too. That's wonderful.

How long have you guys been dating? A little over a year and a half. Oh, that's a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. And our anniversary, we went to Vegas and we saw Chris Angel. Fun.

I love Chris Angel. He is wild. The first time I saw him, slightly racist jokes, but I thought they were funny. Is he not a magician? Am I thinking of the wrong person? Oh, no, he's a magician. Okay, okay. I was like, is he a stand-up comic?

You get magic, and then you get jokes. And you get casual racism. Uh-huh. Okay. Well, I mean, I guess it was. wasn't racist. He just pulled two black women on stage and put his face between them and went, I'm an Oreo. No, I think it's racist. Yeah, I'm not going to give him that one. Oh, man, I laughed so hard and I'm laughing right now. I just, like, was blown away that he was like,

this is going to kill. And guess what? It did. Vegas is a wild place. Yeah. And then last time I went, he got heckled. He was talking because he talks in between the tricks. And this lady in the back goes, do magic. And he was like, and he was like, go to David Carpherfield. And it blew me away. And then later he called back to it. It was like, isn't that funny? None of you know if that was a plan or not. And I was like, we don't. Magic. It's magic. Okay. What is, what's your like ideal partner? What does that look like? Mm-hmm. Everything you're describing, feeling safe with someone. But in terms of like his qualities, I like someone's smart. I really struggle if I feel bored in a relationship. So someone's smart, someone who keeps up with a news, even though it's scary. I do feel like it's important to understand what's happening in the world. Someone who cares about their community because I'm really community. What I was just saying about the behind of it's like our whole thing is like wanting to give back. So. I think that's, like, really attractive when someone cares about other people.

This is a new one that I feel like I should have prioritized more. Someone who, I don't care what your job is, but that, like, he really loves his job and he's really good at it. I really love my job. I hope I'm good at it. And I feel like it's a bad sign if someone is, like, doesn't care about work, especially men, because I feel like it's a really big part of their identity. And I think it speaks to other issues. That's been my experience when they're, like, not thriving at work.

Like, there's other stuff going on. Yeah. And then physically, I don't have a type. I don't even care if he's like that tall. A little taller than me would be nice. I'm 5'6. But I don't have a type. I've liked all kinds of guys. Interesting. But attractive. Like definitely an attractive guy, someone I find attractive. Yeah. I never thought I had a type. But if I look through the history, I do have a type. Okay. But I don't know. In my defense, I do think I just, those are the people who've asked me out. Yeah. That makes sense. Because I don't think I've ever dated somebody for a long time where I asked them out. I once went on two dates with a man who I met in my apartment because my roommate at the time brought home a bunch of guys to, like, hang out at the apartment. And I was like, okay. And then I started talking to this one guy, this blonde guy.

And I remember I gave him a headshot and I wrote my number on it. I think I was 23 years old. I love that. There you go. That's so funny. on a headshot is crazy. That's crazy. You just put it on a napkin.

You were like, don't forget me. Never occurred to me to put it on anything but that headshot. That's amazing. Because you were talking, I was like, he needs to remember, babe. I'll send him home with an 8x10 picture of myself. You can frame it.

You can frame my number. I wonder if he still hasn't. I'm sure he folded it right up as soon as he got in the car home. So funny. Oh, my God. Did he ask you out? He did.

He did. Oh, he might have it. He did. We went and saw the color purple. not super uplifting. Yeah, that's an interesting... About a guy like abusing a woman very seriously is an interesting first date choice.

It was my choice because I had gotten free tickets. And then I think the second date we went on, we went to Rudy's, which was a bar, an 8th Avenue. But he didn't call me after the second date. And you better believe I said, why didn't you call?

Why didn't you text? And then I don't know if he answered. I think he was just like, hey, I don't know. I'm not into you. But I spent a long time being very bold. And it took me a long time to be like, no answer is an answer. That's true. Yeah.

Also, maybe is an answer and it's no. Yes. And my experience, maybe is always no. It's never yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or like, not right now. And it's like, yeah, but when?

No. Never. Yeah. Never. Yeah. I think it's, nobody ever talks about in dating that it's not, it feels incredibly personal, but it technically isn't. And it's not about you.

That was the thing I had to learn that it wasn't about me because I'm not the main story for them. Yeah. They're trying to find someone who works well with them. And just because it's not me, that's okay. That's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah. I like that a lot.

That's like peanut butter and mayo. Like they don't go well together, but they're both great on their own. That made me so upset. Exactly. I was like, oh, peanut and mayo. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's not everything goes together.

Yeah. Actually, I did think of a guy who I will just put this out there in case anyone knows. You want to set me up. You know that actor Brian Greenberg? Is that his name? He's with Jamie Chung maybe. He was on the L.A. reboot of suits. And he's not like an A-lister. But he was in a movie called Prime with Uma Thurman. And I fell in love with him. And I would say that that guy is my type. If you, that's like, that's like my eye. He's like, is it this guy? Yes, I love him. I love him so much. Wait. I like that. him so much. So if you know anyone like that who's available in looking, I will try my hardest. He's also a little bit of a redhead, but that's not what I don't mind that. But when I've said that before, people are like, no, so you want a redhead. And I'm like, that's just not what stands out to me. He does, yeah. He just looks inviting and friendly. Yeah, kind of gentle. Yes, and you'd be like, like, I just made a fire. Yeah, exactly. Matt Saracen on Friday Night Lights, a guy like that.

Oh, boy. I'm basically the same basic way guys. Our entertainment has, our sectors do not cross. Because I've never seen Dawson's Creek. You've never seen Friday Night Lights? I've never seen Friday Night Lights. But my mom did watch Passions. Yeah. So I know a little bit about Passion. It's crazy that that's the one where we would intersect.

Because Passions was like very niche. It was like the worst of all the soaps. Like lowest ranked got canceled quickly. My mom watched Passions, General Hospital, and Days of Our Lives. I watched Days of Our Lives for a while with my mom. That's so funny. Like a child watching. It comes on every day.

Yeah, every day is hard to keep a dedicated to keep it. dedicated to keep up. Totally. I think my mom would tape passions for me. And then I would watch it after school. Or it was on after I'd get home for school. I don't remember. But Days of Our Lives was my mom's favorite show.

So sometimes we'd watch it together. Yeah. My mom would watch her because she also taped them. She would watch them when she folded clothes at night. Yeah, yeah. We would do chores and watch them. Yeah, and then I'd stay awake and be like, what is happening? Why is Marlina have a clone?

What? Why is this man? And then she'd be like, okay. And then she would explain it all to me. We also watched Allie McBeal together. Oh, that's a good one. My dad loved Allie McBeal.

Oh, yeah. You know, Clist of Lockhart. She's great. Oh, my God. You want to know what I just watched? What did you just watch? Indiana Jones. For the first time.

Yes. What did you think? It was so fun. It's good. I kept saying, wow, this is like the mummy. And then that nice man kept being like, The mummy is like Indiana Jones. And I was like, oh my God.

Is it Indiana Jones the first one where she puts her hand in the hole and there's all the bugs. Oh, no. Have you, do you know what I'm talking? I'm sorry, I'm looking at the producer. There's an Indiana Jones where a woman puts her hand in a hole and all these bugs come out, and I always thought it was, I guess I knew there wasn't CGI, but I thought it was special effects.

That woman actually put her hand in a hole full of bugs. That would end me as an, could you do that as an actor? No, because there's a scene where a man's covered in tarantulas, and I was like, you couldn't pay me. Yeah. We got to get the stunt double in, my stand in, so I can't, I, I can do snakes. I can do a snake if you tell me the snake's friendly and won't bite me and like tell me what the vibes are with this snake, I think I could do that. Yeah.

Bugs? I did a show where there is a cockroach. I can't. And it was like a water bug. It was the biggest thing I'd ever seen. And I screamed when I saw it. And the animal wrangler was a nice man who went, hey. No screaming up.

No. And I was like, that cockroach is that man's friend. Okay, that's crazy. That I can't relate on any level. And then he goes, do you want to know how we get the cockroach to walk where we need him to walk? And I was like, never in my life. No, I don't want to know. I don't want to look at this cockroach.

You smear a little bit of banana. And then it like eats the banana and it'll like walk in a little line. And then he was like, just holding this cockroach. And they have names. They're like, and he was like, do you want to hold Larry? And I was like, no. No, I don't want to hold Larry. That's crazy, Nicole.

Everything you just said is my nightmare. It was so nasty. Yeah. But then sometimes you get to work with a dog. Yeah, that's great. Dog wranglers, a little less creepy than that man. Yeah. He was a little creepy.

But I did an episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine where I got to hold this adorable little puppy. And it just kept falling asleep in between takes. It was so cute. Okay, we have to take one more. I tried to get on you for so many seasons. That's so, as, like, as any character? As anybody. Yeah.

I told my agents, I was like, anything. I will be the bitch, like, just reading in the bookstore. Yeah. I loved it so much. But I also have a problem where I root for bad men in movies or on television shows. Have you ever seen Roof Man? No, I've never heard of it. Okay, nobody has.

Okay. It's a Channing Tatum movie that came out this year, but the poster looked like a fake movie in a movie. Okay. And so did the movie that he did with Scarlett Johansson. Climmy to the moon. Yes, like what? And I was like, whatever.

But then I watched it, and I was like, oh, my God. So it's based on this man who had a family, got arrested. His family cuts him off. He goes to prison. He escapes from prison, finds a whole new family. But you root for him. And you're like, oh my God, I want him to be happy with his new family. And he's, like, doing crimes and stuff.

And he lives in a Toys Arrest for like six months. So he's also like a loser. Well, he's on the run. So I don't know, loser. Yeah. I mean, yes, I'm rooting for this bad man. And I'm like, don't call him a loser. Just as he lived in a Toys R Us for six months.

Yeah. And then at the end, they like interview people who he, like, robbed. Like some people who worked at like a McDonald's he robbed, the officers who arrested him, the woman he dated. And the woman he dated was like, yeah, I asked my daughter if she remembered anything bad about him. No, he was great. Oh, man. Yeah, he came into the McDonald's and took our money, but he put us in the refrigerator and he made us wear our coats to keep warm. And then the officer was like, everyone thinks he's so nice because he donated toys to a toy drive, but they were stolen.

And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. That's pretty nice. Nicole, that's hilarious. Yeah, yeah, Joe Goldberg, obviously everyone obsessed with him. But that one was, like, crazy because people, it was like spilling out into real life where people were attacking, like, attacking the actresses. Like in this season, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, the actress takes him down. She's the first one to do it.

The amount of hate that Madeline Brewer got in real life, it's like, okay if you want to root for Joe, but why are, it's like next level insanity? The actor. And, like, people were upset that she took him down. And so they were, like, attacking the actor. Like, they were literally, like, spewing hate towards Madeline. This is insane. That's unhinged. Wild.

Yeah. I never... I just... I'm not that person who's like, oh, I have to tell... I have to tell that person. I don't like this. No. I'll say it amongst friends.

I'll be like, oh, I didn't like that. But I also really enjoyed that she took him down at the end because you got to see how, like, how vicious he was. Totally, yeah. Also, that. I'm like, they showed how vicious he was by the end and, like, you're still rooting for him. Yes, that, I think, is like, you got to work on that.

Yeah. Because I watched it and I was like, oh, man, Joe, don't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At some point, you have to be like, Joe. Yeah. Did you get inside scoops before they were shooting from Penn? Sometimes I didn't even want them. I had some point I had to tell Penn, like, I am a fan of the show.

Stop, stop, stop telling me. So in the first season, yeah, you know the worst one. I feel like in season two, the biggest plot twist is that, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, love is also a killer. That's a huge deal. It was like, would have been pulled out really well. Penn, like, very casually told me, he was like, oh, yeah, I just met like Victoria Padretti. She's going to play this character who's, like, secretly a killer. And I'm like, did you just, is that like a small character? Yeah, he ruined. He ruined. Rewind a delightful, delicious twist. Yeah. So after that, we had to have conversations like, you are not allowed to spoil it for me.

How did the three of you meet to create your podcast? So Sophie and I briefly met in China. we both lived in China, and I was like, I knew her parents better, and I, like, sometimes would go to her house. Sophie's 10 years younger than me. So I met her when she was in high school. Anyway, park that. And then she moved to New York. I moved to New York. We both ended up in Brooklyn. And I, like, briefly lived with her older sister and was sort of, like, reconnected that way. And then Penn and I, Penn was doing a program called the Junior Youth Spiritual Empowerment Program. It was like an after-school program. And he and my roommate were facilitating it together. So he would come over to our place to, like,

lesson plan essentially with my roommate Martha. So we met that way. And I was working at the UN. I was a researcher and writer. And one of my areas of research is like the impact of media on women and girls of color. And that research is devastating. It's like some of the most saddening things you could possibly. Yeah. Like what? It's like from three years old like brown and black girls are sexualized like more so than white girls. I mean it's devastating for all women. But but but it's like particularly the way that like black girls and brown girls are portrayed. It was like shocking. And it's like all over the world because it's the UN. So in some countries, it's even worse than the U.S. what's happening. But yeah, it was just like the sexualization

of girls from like a very young age or the infantilization of girls. And then even like pornography, people don't like talk about it. But like the rise of pornography and like the people getting younger and younger when they watch it means that a lot of young girls for sexual experience is really violent, which people don't talk about. And I had to do some of that research. That's tough. It's like like boys choking girls and they don't know what they're doing. So they can, like, really hurt them. Yeah. And it's, like, 14-year-olds choking each other, you know? Like, yeah, like, people are having sex older, but they're having sex more violently. Anyway, it was a lot of stuff like that. So it was, like, heavy research. And I was sharing

some of it with Ben for some reason. And he was thinking of starting a production company. And then one thing led to another, we started it together. And then we brought Sophie in for the podcast because she was doing animations at the time. For a very brief period of time, we thought our podcast would have animated stories. It was too much work. We let that go. But we Yep, Sophie. It is funny when you start a podcast and you're like, I'm going to do all these things. Yeah, we're going to animate a story every episode. It's like, oh, wait, that's crazy. And it's going to take some time and, yeah, that's a lot. And resources, yeah. And how long have you been doing the podcast? We've been doing it since 2020. Oh, okay. Yeah. And do you

have any, like, episodes, like an episode that you like the most that you're like, this is the one you should start with? That's a great question. Conan O'Brien, I think, is a great, he's just so funny. Yes. So he really delivers. I think that's a really good starter one. And then Ariana Grande, she's so famous. So if you want our most famous guest, but she was also a really generous guest. She spent a lot of time with us. She spent like four hours with us. Oh, my God. We actually made it two parts and she was really open. So yeah, those are two. I feel like a lot of episodes are really good. You and Sashir have a really funny one. And we don't do two people very often. So that's like a treat when we do.

That was fun. Sashir is a person who, it's just easy. That's, that's, that's, one, she's like a great person, but then it's just like so easy to, we have like a good ebb and flow. Yeah. I feel like sometimes you'll listen to duos who like talk over one another or trying to like one up each other. No, you guys aren't like that at all. Nope. I'm very much like if she's being funny, I'm going to let her be funny.

Yeah. Yeah. No, you guys have a great dynamic. Thank you. We were once in a pitch and she said something so amazing. I looked at her I was like, whoa, that was great. And I was like, oh, no, we were supposed to practice this. And this is supposed to be more, this is supposed to be professional. I can't believe I just did that. And I was like, there's no coming back from that. That's so funny.

But that's what you get, working with me. Do you have any advice for single people? I feel like I need advice. I feel like single people, no, not single people. People in relationships reach out to me and give me your advice. Oh, okay. But I do, if I were really thinking about it, I think, Put yourself out there. Don't be afraid of failure. Like, it's not really a failure, whatever you're thinking that is. But even if the worst case happens, like, keep going. Because I feel like taking too much time off, which is something that I've done, it makes you like, it's like a muscle. You have to use it. It actually makes you more scared and it makes it harder to take risks. So if you can be like, if you can have a sense of humor about it, like not take it so seriously, I think it becomes easier. So like have a sense of humor about all the mishaps and don't take long breaks from dating. That would be my advice.

I think that's good advice. I think having a sense of humor about it is so essential because the goofy as shit happens. And you're like, I can't believe that happened. And it's like, you can't just get upset about it. You got to just, have you ever been set up? Yes, but not successfully. No one has ever set me up. And, I mean, now I'm fine, but like, Berman and I was like, these friends of mine are not real friends.

Yeah. Do you have advice for me? this is unfortunate because I think you're incredible I think you're like you're articulate you're very it seems like you're very

firm in who you are and I'm just like I don't know I feel calm I don't know because I think you're great thank you so and unfortunately the demographic of this show

gay men and women same as our show same as our show I thought I was like maybe when I have a podcast like men will like like slip into my DMs. I've had several like gay women slide into my DMs.

And I'm like, I wish just like I honestly wish that I loved women that way. Yeah. Because I feel like I'd be much more successful. Yeah. Yeah. So to all the gay men and women watching, if you have a great friend. If you have a friend. Send them my way.

And what's your Instagram? At NNN AVA. At NAVA with three ends. Slide into those DMs. Get in there. Do you have anything you want to promote? Yes. So in addition to my podcast, Pod Crush.

I co-authored a book called Crushmore And it's available now And I've heard from several people That they like the audio book the most So maybe check out the audio book It's on Audible, Spotify I will say this If you have ADHD

The book is essays One of the easiest entries Into like reading again is essays It's true and you can jump around Yes and that's what I was doing I was like having a lot of fun jumping around Being like ooh what about this Oh okay

And now it's just in my living room And when I'm like, ugh, I've had too much phone or had too much TV, I'll read an essay. I love that. Thank you for reading it. Of course. Well, that's it. If you like, oh, wait, would you date me? Look, I remember.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, given my caveat about loving women, that aside, I would totally date you. You're such a catch. Thank you. I would date you. I truly think you're wonderful. If you like this episode of Why Want You Date Me, you could like it, you can rate it, you can subscribe, give me five stars on Apple Podcast.

And if you write me something to Why Won't You Date Me Podcasts, and if you write me something to why won't you date me podcast at gmail.com hitting on me something nasty i'll read it this person says hey nicky interesting very few people call me nicky i wish your salad was left on my door i had they ordered a salad and it was delivered to the wrong house and i said to postmates i was like what am i supposed to do want around the neighborhood screaming where's my salad i would call you up and tell you how I could get you sloppy, soppy, wet, and soggy. Lather you up in dressing and gobble you up.

He-he-he-he-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-parks casino audience member circa five years ago. That's really funny to say that you're in the audience of a show I did five years ago. That's amazing. Well, I hope you liked it. You left an impression, Nicole. I guess so. And a casino show at that, those... Shows are tough.

Okay. Everyone's just shit-faced. Yeah, I can't imagine. And they're like, when do I get to go back to gambling? Yeah. Bye. Bye. Oh, you've been listening to Why Won't You Date Me with me, Nicole Beyer.

This show is produced and edited by Mars with executive producer Anya Kennef Skiya. It's engineered by Casey Donahue. With guest research by Lindsay Kempth. Our VP of Content at Headgum is Katie Moose. And our theme. music is arranged by Mike Cometay. Ah, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

See you then. Okay, bye-bye. That was a hate gum podcast.