Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Ani DiFranco found power in scaring people

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

Musician Ani DiFranco has never stopped growing as an artist. In the last year alone, she starred in the Broadway production of Hadestown, was featured in a documentary about her life and career, and released her 23rd album. She and Rachel talk about reinventing yourself in middle age, finding power in scaring people, and the magic of a late-night hamburger.To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

What is something you think you still have to prove to people you mean? Ooh, I think for me, at this point I feel like I have to prove that I still have more. You know, I get a lot of, you know, I loved you in the 90s. You know, we're both 50. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them.

I'm not done. Today, Ani DeFranco is playing the game. I'm not a singer from the 90s. I'm right here. And I'm still making art. It's hard to overstate just how important Ani DeFranco was to me in a particular chapter of my life. That chapter being the one right after college.

My boyfriend of two years, which is an eternity at that age, had moved across the country to live. with his parents while he figured out what to do with his life. And it slowly became clear to me that he had started a new relationship without telling me. I was obviously heartbroken and I was angry. And the only thing that made me feel better was Ani DeFranco. I would just blast her album dilate as loud as I could without pissing off my neighbors and just sing my guts out to these feminist anthems, which in one moment could be really tender and stripped down. And then in an instant, they could be angry and messy. And that's how I felt. And Ani DeFranco's was the only voice that felt

real enough to contain, to represent all of those feelings at the same time. And Ani DeFranco ends up hearing this a lot, right? A story like this. And it's not that she resents that people remember her this way. It's just that she wants to be more than a 90s feminist cult icon, and she's put a lot of work into proving that. In the last year alone, a documentary about her life and career came out. She recently released her 23rd album, and when I talked with Anya a few months ago, she was in New York singing and dancing her way through her role as Persephone in the musical Hadesown. In some ways, it was this full-circle moment. She helped the creator a Jayas Mitchell released a concept album of this show back in 2010.

And she sang the part of Persephone on that album. But tackling a Broadway role was an entirely new experience for her. Anna DeFranco, I am so happy that you're here. Thank you so much. Happy to be here. I have to acknowledge that you are doing something totally different than the thing you are famous for doing because you're, You're not necessarily famous for being a Broadway star.

I mean, you've never done it before. Yeah. And you're on Broadway, baby. It's the craziest thing. Did anyone check to see if you could dance before they gave you this rule? That is such a perfectly worded question. I just feel like there might have been some producer that was like, Ani to Franco, awesome.

It was meant to be. It has to happen. Can she dance? Folk singer. Are we sure? Are we sure? It was apparently Anaeus's idea that I be called in at this juncture once again to get involved. And Anaeus's only words were, I know you can dance because of all those dance parties we had on tour buses.

Because that's the same. A hundred percent. That's the same. For the record, for those who haven't seen you in this, you're good. You're real good. You have agency of your body and you're moving it in these ways. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is a totally natural thing for you to move your art through your body that way. Yeah. In heels, which is not your normal footwear at all. No, indeed.

Yeah. So being in New York, though, is not what you usually do, right? Right. Yeah, I've been living in New Orleans for about 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a true. But it's a return to an old life because I lived in New York from 89 to 97. Yeah. I mean, different New York, different me, but it's cool to be back. I mean, those years in New York were tough. You were trying to figure out what you were doing and those were not easy times. And now here you are in this full circle kind of moment. Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking the other night about why I stopped dancing. And it was when I moved to New York, I was 18, and I had no money.

I remember going to some dance studio that I loved. loved. And I was really into it. I wanted to keep pursuing dance, but I couldn't afford to take classes. And so that made me consolidate to music, you know, which I could practice all on my own. You know, I can practice playing guitar for free and writing songs. And so that's what happened there. But yeah. She just became a musical icon because it was the cheaper way. It was the cheaper way. Folk music is free. Yeah, you know, necessity is part of how we build ourselves.

But, yeah, just as I was thinking the other night, it's amazing to be here with money to buy food. Those things. Wherever I want. You know, it's a whole different experience. Okay, so there are a couple of rules for the game. You get one skip. Okay.

So if you use your skip, I will swap in another question from the deck randomly. Okay. You look like you were about to write something now. Oh, no, you're drinking. Okay. I'm taking notes. Carry the two. Okay.

Okay. You also get one flip, all right? Okay. You can put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do. Okay. We're dividing it up into three rounds, memories, insights, and beliefs. And because this is a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end. Oh, I know.

Love it. All right. Let's do this. Are you ready? Yeah. Okay. Round one, memories. Here we go.

I am holding three cards in my hands. All right, it is up to you. Pick a card one through three. One, two, or three. Two. What's a place that shaped you as much as any person did? I feel like I might know the answer to this one. Yeah, right. Let's go with New York. Yay. New York, baby. Yeah, for reals.

Came here when I was 18. Was it just in shock? We should say where you came from. Oh, it came from Buffalo. That's relevant. That's all about comparison. Yep, totally. I mean, Buffalo is a real. city. It's a little hard knock town, rust belt. You know, the buffalo I grew up in was economically struggling. It wasn't like I, you know, New York was my first rodeo, but wow, wow, still eye-opening in so many ways. A lot of suffering around me, which made me cry

every day, every day. And also, you know, I was sort of a smile. kid from borderline Midwest, you know, Buffalo, hello. So, you know, it's like, wipe that smile off your face and get, you know, get it together. This is, this is hardcore. But then, yeah, the lightness that shines through the bars and the cracks and the little green things that grow up through the cement, you know, become even more profound in a city like New York and the ways that people find to love each other and uplift each other. So I was experiencing all of that all of a sudden. And did you carry that with you? Because what you're

describing to me is a sense of optimism, really, of despite things, of an ability to still see good. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I was born with the optimism and I needed to protect it. But I also needed, I was an 18-year-old girl alone. I didn't know anybody. I was working at night. I was, you know, so, for instance, I showed up with hair down below my shoulders, and within a few months of living in New York, I had shaved it blue, shiny, bald, as in go away. You know, just my force field, I, you know, I worked on my,

my force field daily, you know, my survival skills skyrocketed. But you know the thing I love about your memoir is that you wrote about that moment and it was incongruous to who you were, though, because you were someone who craved intimacy so much. But so you're building this barrier by shaving your head, but all you want to do is, like, aggressively my eye contact with people and share some intimacy to everyone's looking at you, like, no, you look super scary. Oh, my gosh, yeah.

That was really radical to scare people as a five-foot-two female. You know, that was pretty thrilling. Well, yeah. Everyone should try it. There is power in that. Right. Well, yeah. Yeah.

And when you have zero power, that can be useful. But yeah, yeah, totally. I'm a completely open, hard-on-sleeve little creature. And I was learning a lot of survival. skills and but those little moments you know when somebody would meet my eye or say something i would carry those for days and weeks you know like medicine okay we've got three new cards still in the memories round pick a card one two three three let's go three okay what was the most significant year in your life if you can think about it that way oh that's

There's been a lot of years with a lot of significances. Let's go with 2024. Ooh. I like that answer. When the 53-year-old Anni reinvents her life. That's what it feels like? Yes. After pursuing songwriting for 40 years, I've stepped out of that into a new place.

It's been really challenging, humbling, terrifying. And also, yeah, I think that was the idea for me, you know. Had you been craving that? And this was just the opportunity that presented itself? Yes. You know, I feel like this is a year that represents a transformation for me. into, I don't know what, but into different things and different versions of myself. And that's scary.

It is scary. And my insomnia is at an all-time fever pitch. Is it? Yeah, I mean, I was never a good sleeper. I'm an obsessor, and I'm a thinker, and a divisor. And now I just, because I don't really know what's around every corner, I'm not, sleeping or eating in a consistent way. Wait, that's not good, honey.

Yeah, but it's always been a part of my creative cycles. Deprivation? Yeah, I guess. But in that it goes all into the creative process. Like I can't even swallow or close my eyes or, you know. What do you think about when you can't sleep? Are you the person who you're just, you're thinking about songs, or you're thinking about your insecurities?

I mean, unfortunately, a lot of it is beating myself up for not doing everything as good as it can be done, you know, because I do a lot of mental work about, okay, how should you have said that, if it's my show? What did you mean to say, you know? and how could you have better orchestrated that moment or that arc or that, you know. So there's a lot of the work that I put into my shows I do instead of sleeping. You know, I think about all the things.

There's so many things. Okay. As long as you're still like eating some granola bars during the day. Yes, I'm trying to definitely make it sustainable and take care of myself. Late-night hamburgers are my friend. Light-night hamburgers. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sorry.

That's good for your soul. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Ani talks about the unseen work that goes into being a performer. Okay, we're back with round two, insights. Things you have learned or are learning now. Okay.

Three new cards. Pick one, two, or three. Two. What is something you think you still have to prove to people you mean? Ooh. I want to turn. this one on you first. Oh. It's really so weird when people do that. Oh, right. I did say that was a rule. You did say that.

Oh, this isn't. I feel like I have to prove a lot of things. I'm from Idaho and like many generations. And I live in like the coastal elite thing, the bubble of it all. And people who went to fancy schools and the parents and fancy people and they have other people and their families who are journalists. And so they have kind of a way into that. and stature. And so I think when that insecurity comes knocking, that's how it shows up for me. I still feel like I have to prove that I belong. I belong in the jobs that I've had that carried a lot of authority with them. And that I did a good job in those jobs that I did well. And I still feel like I have to prove in retrospect that I deserve those jobs, if that makes sense. That's funny, isn't it? Yeah.

I think for me, at this point, I feel like I have to prove that I still have more, that I'm not done. You know, I get a lot of, you know, I loved you in the 90s, you know. It's a lot of, ah, in the high school, you guys, you know, we're both 50, you know. and I have made 15 records since they got off. And I think, you know, some of my new records are some of my best. And, yeah, I mean, I guess a part of me maybe on some level feels they have to prove, I'm not done.

I'm not a singer from the 90s. I'm right here. And I'm still making art. All right. We are still in Insights, three new cards, one, two, or three. Let's go with one. Huh. What is something people think comes naturally to you, but actually it takes a lot of work?

Performing? I am a writer who lives as a musician. But now I'm surrounded by actor, performers, Broadway peeps, who are extraordinarily performative and extroverted and one. Wonderfully so, but I can feel the distance between my nature, you know, and so I'm trying to go there. You know, I'm not really a ham. Well, and also, I mean, your song, a lot of them are very serious, Ani. And you do have to take yourself, do you think it's fair to say you have to take yourself less seriously to do this?

Or just seriously in a different way? Hmm. I mean, I think I, even though my songs are serious, and maybe especially because my songs are serious, I bring a lot of humor into my own shows, you know, to balance and to keep it. The dark in the light. Yeah, I mean, I almost feel the opposite like this show, I have to, you know, with my show, if I mess up, I make something of it. And it's everybody's favorite parts is when I mess up and rescue myself or not or turn it into it. Here you don't mess up.

You know, it's more serious. Right. And you're accountable to a lot of people and to a thing that's bigger than you. Yeah. But yeah, just I'm having to really lean into, you know, be a performer. Find that part in myself, you know, that I've been practicing, you know. So it's there, but it's tough. It's tougher than maybe people.

might imagine about me. We're going to take another quick break. When we come back, Anni talks about the gap between the truths she writes in her songs and how she lives her life. Moving on to round three, we are now in the beliefs round.

New set of cards, one, two, or three. One. How do you stay connected to people you've lost? Hmm. Well, I guess my mind immediately went to death and first to my father.

who was my guy, you know, and I was his. And for many years it was through dreams. I firmly know in my body and my spirit and my soul that death is not an ending of consciousness, that these bodies that contain us are temporary, but that our spirits live. on. So I felt like my actual relationship with my father lived on after his body was no longer. I felt our interactions in dreams were not just memories or imaginings, but continued conversation. Yeah, I get that. And then weirdly, if I can get even more spooky about it, at some point, those dreams kind of dissipated. I don't know. know how many years after his death. But then some years after that, as I was thinking,

where'd you go? Where'd you go, Dad? Like, I don't, we don't. And then I turned to my son, who's 10 now. And I was like, oh, there you are. You, I've been climbing trees with you for the last five years. Right. Like I, I named, I named, I named, my son Dante, which is my father's name, before I even knew if it was a boy. I just decided this baby was Dante, and that's going to be weird if it's a girl, and we're going to get a lot of looks. But you know what? That's what I need to do. And then out he came and he looked so like my father, and my relationship with my son is so like my relationship with my father. Our love, our bond, our understanding of each other, the way we make each other laugh.

So I, on some level, had this revelation that, oh, you came back in some way in this new body to hang out with me again, and this is what we're doing. So that's the most profound example answer I could give. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Does your kid know that? I did. I mean, you named him, Dante, so I guess.

Yeah, I know. I think I, you know, I told him in so many words that I feel like I get to hang out with my dad again with him around. And he loves that. He asked, he never met his grandfather. But he will sometimes say things about acknowledging the connection I feel between them and maybe saying, oh, maybe this is something. Grandpa Dante, da-da-da, you know. Okay, last question. Last set of cards. Okay. One, two, or three. Okay. I'll go with three again.

How has your idea of what it means to be a good person changed over time? Well, yeah. I feel like I am deeply in a process right now of changing my idea of what it is to be a good person. And it's been really challenging because my ideas were always predicated on self-sacrifice and, you know, humility, doing for others, prioritizing others, serving others, helping, giving. and though that's good cool stuff, I'm really only just awakening to a good person is a person who, and here's where I start crying, who loves and honors themselves.

And that has been trickier for me. And I think I'm learning that self-love that knowing deeply and thoroughly that you are perfect, you are more than fine, you are perfect, you are divine, you are on your path, is so valuable to the world and to others. And I think I can look at my songs and I can see that, that there's some message that was coming through my songs, that has been coming through my songs over the years of self-affirmation,

that exactly that, that did that for others that may, okay, you know, right? You're not ashamed. Right. Why should I be ashamed? Yeah, you are enough. But you didn't feel that yourself. I wasn't achieving that inside myself. So I'm really trying now because I think that is the next level for me in terms of being able to give to the world.

Give to yourself all that love. Are there costs to that, you know? It is, I have a long way to go. I have a long way to go. And it's wild how you can understand something so deeply with your mind and still have a long way to go to embody it, to fully believe it. So I am still deeply in the process. You win. You win the game.

Oh, I win. You win. Yay. So you get a prize. Oh, boy. The prize is a trip in our memory time machine. Oh, boy. Doodle.

Okay. Love it. Sound effects. Yep. You get to revisit one moment from your past. This is a moment you wouldn't change anything about. You just want to spend more time there. That's tricky, but I guess I just, you know, after the birth of my daughter, who is my older,

there was a moment of Zen in my life. that she brought with her. She's a very Zen creature. And when she was inside me, I just chilled the heck out. It was so symbiotic. She showed me before she even arrived how that goes. And there was a moment when I was involved in the first happy family. I'd ever been a part of, and it was so amazing to me.

Of course, things got harder. Things went up and down over the course of my 20-year marriage. Dante was a hellraiser. He came out screaming, and that was a whole other ride. But that moment of bliss when I made a happy family, or became a part of one, or it made me in that moment that had something I'd love to linger and a return to. Anna Franco, singer, songwriter.

It's been a real thrill for me. Thank you, Annie. My pleasure. If you heard this conversation and thought to yourself, yeah, I'm into this. I'd like more. You should go check out my episode with poet laureate Ada Lamone. She just has some of the same magic that Ani has. She talks about bodily autonomy in a way that actually changed how I see the world.

Definitely check it out. And if you want more of Ani DeFranco, we've got a bonus episode out now. You'll hear me talking with Ani about how she deals with her own audiences' expectations of her. The decisions that others make about who you should be, who you should stay, that can be heavy, that has been heavy, and sort of constrictive, claustrophobic over the years. years. You can hear all this great stuff by signing up for Wild Card Plus. It is a fantastic way to support our show and public radio at the same time and get more of this extra stuff that not everybody else gets to hear. You can find out more at plus.npr.npr.org This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Ida Purosod and mastered by Gilly Moon and Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan, our third. The theme music is by Romteen, R. Ablewee. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org.

We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.