Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Bobbi Brown doesn’t listen to men in suits about makeup

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

At 68 years old, Bobby Brown still has a competitive spirit. She lives by the words “watch me,” which has led to her success as a makeup artist, business mogul and TikTok star. She's written several books on makeup and beauty, but in her upcoming book "Still Bobbi," for the first time, she's telling her own story. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcardSee pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Has competition done more to help you or hurt you? Definitely help. I love competition. I find that competition just makes you be better. And, you know, I do think what I do is better when it comes to makeup. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards.

They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Cosmetics mogul Bobby Brown. There was a lot of women and a lot of men that just said yes. Yes. I was kind of the one that said, no, I don't think that's right. Bobby Brown's career started because of two words. Why not? Why not cold call a bunch of famous makeup artists to get her first job?

Why not make her own makeup? Why not launch a new company and become a TikTok star in her 60s? When Bobby Brown asks why not, it's like she's daring someone to end. answer, daring someone to curb her ambition, which is impossible because she has already made up her mind to go for it. Bobby Brown, welcome to Wildcard. Thank you. That was quite an introduction. I loved it.

Well, I'm really happy to get to do this. I watched you on the Today Show when you had your recurring segment for years. So this is a thrill for me. Even though I have a love-hate relationship with makeup, I will tell you straight up. As do I. Yes. But we're going to get right into the game. Okay.

Okay. You ready? I'm ready. Okay, let's go. First three cards. Here we go. Memories. One, two, or three?

Two. Two. What's a routine from your childhood that you miss? Back to school. I always loved going back to school when I was a kid because my mother made sure I had new underwear, new clothes, and she wanted me to start the year right. And for her, it was having a new outfit. Do you remember a specific back-to-school outfit that you're like, I look good? Oh, oh, I do.

Yeah, I don't think I looked good, but it was, yes, I had this dress that were buttons sewn on it, and I loved it so much she bought it for me in a couple colors. So it's funny you should say that we're talking in back-to-school season. Your kids are grown. They don't go back to school anymore. My granddaughter started pre-K this morning. I've already called her parents, but they didn't answer. Like, how did it go?

Right. You need a picture of that. I love the new school year. I still have kids who are in school. But for me also, it's like January for me. I like, I treat it as a New Year's opportunity. A hundred percent. To like recommit to things. I have my own kind of August-September resolutions. It feels fresh and new. Is that part of it for you, too? Oh, 100%. You know, I wish I had time to clean out my closet just to get all organized. This year was a little bit crazy. I love the start of new. We're the same, Bobby Brown. Okay. Okay. No one was easy. Three more. One, two, three. Three. How do you consciously try to emulate your parents? By being a good person and also being creative and not afraid. Can you tell me more about them? You write about them quite a bit in the book. Yeah. My parents were 20 and 21 when I was born. And I don't think they had a clue how to raise. kids. By the time they were 25, they had three kids. And my dad was in law school, became a lawyer, my mom, a homemaker. All I remember from my growing up is I had a perfect, idyllic family.

And my mother was always there. She cared about everything. She helped me with my homework. She helped me with projects. She helped me do my beauty things, you know, which was like polishing our nails or whatever little things we would do at home. I was really close to my mom when I was young. My dad was working, and when he came home from work, my mother would run around the house hysterical. Clean up. Clean up. She wanted everything perfect when my dad walked in the house. That was chaos. I'm not going to lie, because we were playing and we had a stop and clean up. But she wanted everything perfect for my dad. You know, I think she suffered from perfectionism. I have some of it, but I'm certainly not cleaning up by the time my husband comes home. It was, and it was more than

just a fixation on making everything perfect. I mean, your mom, you write about quite thoughtfully that your mom really struggled with mental health issues. She did. I did, you know, the perfectionism was one part of her. It wasn't like extreme where, where there was something wrong. but she did suffer for mental illness that came out when I was older when I was in middle school. But when I was in elementary school, you know, it was more fun in games, but she just had this idyllic thing that she wanted my dad to walk in with these three perfect kids, dinner on the table, everything clean. And, you know, we had to make sure it was done because my mother wasn't a strict mom. She was strict about that, though. And did your dad understand how much, how taxing that was for her?

I mean, did you appreciate the effort? I don't think so. Honestly, I don't think so. It didn't matter for him. And he walked in and everything was nice and, you know, he threw his things down and, you know, we hugged him. We were always happy to see him. And there was some kind of playing before dinner. And then, you know, we just had our dinner and bath. And, you know, this was when I was younger. You know, things changed as I got older. My parents split up at some point. And my mother had, you know, mental illness. So things definitely changed.

But I'm so lucky to have had, you know, a much more stable environment. And I was older than my brother and sister were. So at least I got, I think I got the best of them. Or at least I have been able to appreciate and take the best of them. Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like even though that was a first of them. frenetic time. We got to get the house ready. Dad's coming home. And this was her job. I mean, your parents had very traditional gender roles. So this is what she took pride in. But it's obvious

to see the through line for what you ended up doing. I mean, beauty, but aesthetics more broadly, like making things appealing to the eye is what you ended up doing. Which is really ironic. And, you know, as a makeup artist, I would even do shoots and like famous people's home. where architectural digest or someone was shooting it. And so I was also surrounded with these amazing, you know, designers and, you know, prop stylists. So I kind of take that, you know, personal. And I walk into my house, everything has to look a certain way. It's a very visual thing.

It's really important to me, and it kind of settles me down. And part of it is from my mom, and part of it is just working with a lot of professionals with really trained eyes. I am curious. Do you remember the first time you put makeup on and was your mom present for that? Oh, 100%. I mean, my mother always let me play with her makeup.

And her famous story was she said, she gave me a box of her old makeup and a pad of paper and said, you know, go draw me a picture. And when she came upstairs, I didn't touch the paper, but my face was covered. And she said, I knew you were going to be a makeup artist. That was her story. I don't know if that's true or not,

But that was a story she always told. That's a good one. Okay. Three more cards in this round. One, two, or three? I haven't picked one yet, so I'm going one. One. What's a piece of advice you were smart to ignore?

Oh, that no one needs another makeup company. When I told someone I was going to start a makeup company, this guy said the world doesn't need another cosmetics company. And he could have been right, but I proved him wrong. When I started Bobby Brown, there were not brands on the market that weren't Estee Lauder, Lancombe, you know, Chanel. There was not like young, now they call it indie brands. So I was a young indie brand before there was a name for it. How young were you at the time? I was about 34, 33.

I actually started doing a line of lipsticks when I had my first baby. So I was 32 when my first baby was born. So I would be on the phone with editors giving tips how to wear makeup and look fabulous as my newborn baby was throwing up on top of me and trying to pretend I didn't have a baby, right? That was just this fabulous person. That was the time that I didn't advertise motherhood. No, no, no, no, no. And I was living in the suburbs of New Jersey.

People didn't do that. Why would Vogue write about, you know, someone living in the suburbs? So I didn't make a big deal about it. And I'll never forget, you know, slowly I started talking about what it's like to be a working mom and how I put makeup on as a working mom. And those things pretty much started the popularity of the first brand

because there was other commuting mothers that were trying to get it together. It wasn't, you know, I think I had something to do with changing the narrative, that it wasn't all about, you know, fabulosity all the time. Yeah. It was real life. And so that's how really I marketed my first company. And part of your origin story is that you were making makeup that wasn't, I mean, you had all this experience working in high fashion and doing these amazing elaborate photo shoots with lots of makeup where you focus on the makeup. And your whole thing was like, what if we just didn't do that?

What if we just, like, minimized it? Which was revolutionary at the time. Now we take it for granted because everyone is like natural, natural, natural. But it was a huge deal when you did that. Yeah, I remember there was a cover of a magazine I did where I don't know even what got into me. No one discussed it. I just did her makeup. I put a pencil inside her eye and I took a bronzer and I kind of put it all over her face

on her lips, on her cheeks, on her eyes, gave her some mascara. And oh, my God, she looks so pretty. I mean, this girl must have been 19 years old. And they shot the picture. Oh, Bobby, it's so beautiful. And it became a cover. And I was, like, thrilled. And I remember showing it to a top makeup artist.

Look at my cover. What do you think? And he says, oh, that's not makeup that's going to, that people want. If you do makeup like that, you're not going to work in this town. But I kept doing it. Also, we should say, men? I mean, there's a lot of men telling you how to do makeup. Right. And what women want.

Men in really, men in really nice suits, yeah. There was token women, but they were mostly men. You know, there were token women. And there was a lot of women, you know, that just, and a lot of men that just said, yes. Yes. A lot of, I was kind of the one that said, no, I don't think that's right. I don't think people want that. I don't think people need that. You know, and let me figure out what the needs are in the market that you're asking me for.

And let me try to do it my way. Okay, we're going to pause the game to talk about your new book. It is called Still Bobby. I mean, you have done this once or twice before. But this is, correct me if I'm wrong, the first time you've really just turned the lens inward and written. There's memoir throughout lots of your books, but this is an explicit memoir. Right. This is my story. You wrote in the acknowledgments that you think everybody should do it. Like it's a great thing to be able to sit and write your story.

What was gratifying about it? Well, first of all, it's really cathartic because I'm not someone I don't go to therapy. You know, I have in my life, but I don't. And just understanding, you know, how the roads are all connected. It was very, you know, therapeutic. But also telling this story, even if, you know, and everyone's got a story, all of my friends who have either started companies or worked for companies or been artists, there's, they, you don't just wake up and become a 50-year-old person or a 60-year-old person. There's ways to get there. And I think it's a nice gift to be able to give your kids or grandkids.

Yeah. I loved the book. I found it really inspiring. how you built this huge global brand, but it seemed to me that you have sort of subverted your entire industry to some degree by saying, you know, you don't actually need makeup. And like, you're beautiful as you are. How do those two things coexist for you? You're beautiful as you are, but also buy my bronzer. Okay, well, first of all, I didn't intentionally try to subvert the industry. I just had these beliefs and it was like, oh, this makes such sense to me. How about

you find a foundation that is the color of your skin? I mean, I'm sorry, that wasn't a known thing. People would do this, you know, you got to wear, you know, something to correct the color of your skin. No, you need a foundation, the color of your skin. How about a blush? You need a blush that is the color of your cheeks when you pinch them. That's like your natural colors. You need a lipstick that is the color of your lips. So those tips, A, made, I thought made people look better. And I never said don't wear makeup, ever. I mean, ever, ever, because I, there's many days I don't wear makeup. And when I look in the mirror, I'm like, oh, my God, I need something. And whether it's just on my cheeks or under my eyes, I look and feel so much better when I

have something on. So I think looking like yourself, first of all, your makeup looks great. My makeup? You know. Yes. Yes. Did you do it yourself or did someone do it? Yes, I did. Bobby Brown. Yeah. I did spend an extra five minutes today. I was a little insecure because I was talking to. Yeah. Okay, you did it because often when makeup artists do people's makeup, they don't have the natural touch. And sometimes, and I think people could do a better job doing themselves if they know how to do it. Unless it's a makeup artist that understands. Not all makeup artists understands how to make people look, you know, glowy and vibrant. Yeah. So as you said, you're not one for therapy, but writing the book itself was this

cathartic experience. It is interesting when you write a life, when you write a memoir. I haven't done it, but I know many people who have, you start to, in retrospect, see patterns or you learn something. thing about yourself that you may not have realized. Did that happen for you? Was there a specific thing you learned about yourself that may, maybe you didn't understand until you saw it all laid out like that? I mean, I think there was a lot of things, you know, certainly like looking back at my Papa Sam who came from Russia to this country, not knowing, my grandfather, not knowing anyone, not, you know, having any help. And he just kind of figured things out along the way. and tried things that weren't, you know, like traditional.

But I learned about myself that, oh, I kind of do things similar to Papa Sam. Like, I never thought I was like Papa Sam. And I was very much like his wife, my grandmother, Nana, you know, she had the warm, fuzzy, caring. Like, you know, her family was everything. So I'm kind of a combination of both of those guys, you know. And then you, it's like a recipe. Then you add my mom. and then you had my dad in there and I see those things.

And then I met my husband and then he kind of adapted my recipe in a good way. Yeah. It's kind of thrilling, right? When you look back and you're like, oh, there is, genes are strong. And you see them play out and then they manifest in you and you're like, oh, I am a combination of all these people who I loved. And that's like such a lovely thing. And I somehow overcompensated by. by taking things a different way and using my grit to do things because I could have been different, right?

I could have stayed living in Chicago suburbs and got married and been a suburban housewife. I could have been, but I didn't. And I kind of, you know, and a lot of it is, I did. And a lot of it is because my dad just always said, you could do this. He wanted me to go to college in Spain. I was like, why would I want to go to college in Spain and not, you know, become a, you know, become a American college student, but he always wanted me to experience the greater things in life. He was bold.

Yeah, he was bold. He still is, and he, you know, he's still there watching me, and he's, you know, I think he's amazed. And he always says, you're not done. That's a lovely thing. Congrats again on the book. You feel like playing more game? Sure. Okay.

So this is round two. Insights. This round is about insights. One, two, or three. One. One. Has competition done more to help you or hurt you? Definitely help.

Yeah? I love competition. Yeah. It keeps you on your toes. It keeps you on your toes. I'm smart enough to not copy what other people are doing because that just makes you look like you're a loser. But I find that competition just makes you be better. And, you know, I'm a little, I don't know what the word is, I do think what I do is better when it comes to makeup.

You know, my son asked me to not keep naming things the best. Like we have the best eye shadow, the best brown pencil. He's like, Mom, you got to stop. I said, okay. It's like a breaking news banner on a cable news channel. When everything becomes breaking news, then nothing is breaking news. When everything is the best lipstick, then nothing is the best. Right, right. And if it's not the best, I'm going to reformulate it.

Oh, is that your response? Like, no, it must be. I mean, I still believe that our brown pencil is the best brown pencil I ever used. It's not complicated, guys. It's a brown pencil, but it's really good because there's not red in it. There's not orange. It's not dry. It's not greasy. It's the best brown pencil. Were you always competitive? Like, does that go back to? You know, I don't think so because I could. couldn't be competitive in sports. I wasn't very good. I couldn't be competitive with my friends. You know, I just, so I don't think I've always been competitive. I think I started realizing how

good I was at certain things and that I was, you know, I had the ability to get better. And then I got competitive. Yeah. I'm like, okay, watch me. I mean, I still have that. I'm 68 years old. I'm like, yeah, watch me. And sometimes it's to myself. Sometimes it's to my husband or my son. Other times, you know, it's to the world. It depends. Okay.

One more in this round. One, two or three? Three. Three. What have you found surprising about getting older? The texture of your skin. I'm like, whoa. Tell me about it.

But, you know, just like I'm competitive. I'm like, all right, what can I do that's going to make a difference? So there's hydration, there's moisture. Now there are, like, you know, lasers and all sorts of things. I'm like, I'm not going down easy. I'm sorry. I'm not going down easy. But, Bob, you're beautiful just as you are.

I am, but my skin isn't. So, you know, but you know what? I don't wear shorts all the time. I don't wear them in public. You know, I don't wear sleeveless, but I never did wear sleeveless. You know, so I have a trainer. I do weights to keep strong. And it's funny, I haven't done it for a couple weeks, and I'm like, all right, I got to get back in those heavy weights.

The biggest, honestly, the biggest surprise that no one tells you are I don't feel my age. And I don't think I look my age all the time. But the changes that happen naturally are like a little surprising. But I'm genuinely interested because you are. are who you are and you work where you work, you can't win this race. Like age does, we're all going to die. We're all going to get really old. Hopefully, that's the best case scenarios that we all get really. Yeah, but hopefully we'll get old better. You know, because my son was a strength and conditioning coach, I really learned and understood how training my body, not like a crazy athlete, but someone

that, you know, is conditioned to be able to get up off the floor, to get up out of a low chair to put my suitcase on top of something. I mean, all of those things, you know, it's strength and mobility. Those are really important. So, yeah, muscles are important, but all those other things are even more important. So I hear you saying there are things I can work on. As a person and as a woman getting older, there are things I can do? Are there things about the aging process that you have just accepted as inevitable and you're okay with them? What are those? And that's the lines in my face. Yeah. Yeah, the lines in my face because, yes, I can go get Botox. I don't want to. I can do soft wave and lasers that tighten your jaw line. Yes, I will do those. There are things. And when my skin

looks dehydrated, I could put a mask on it. I could, you know, exfoliate. I could do those things. So there's just knowing what you can change, but other things you just have to accept. Really quickly, before we get back to the show, we've been asking folks to rate and review wildcard recently, and it has been genuinely amazing to see what people have written. Rose Langston wrote the following. This show revives my love for humanity. I love the question so much that I've written many down with a plan to write personal essays. I, and hopefully my family, will enjoy having a window into my authentic. middle-aged self for years to come. I love that rose. And thank you to everyone who has written

and shared what you love about the show. It's so fun to read them and it really helps our show find new audiences. If you haven't taken the time yet, please consider pausing this episode and doing it now in your podcasting app. Okay, back to the show. Okay, last round. This is beliefs. This is the beliefs round. Here we go. One, two, or three. Two. Two. We're just going. We're just Going right for it. What's the most religious thing about you? I celebrate all the holidays. You do. I celebrate Hanukkah, Christmas, Duwali.

Oh, all of them. I celebrate all of them. I thought you were going to say you celebrate, you know, just the holidays in your religious tradition. No, I celebrate all of them. I'm very lucky. I have an Indian daughter-in-law. I have another daughter-in-law who's, you know, I'm a... I don't have a Jewish daughter, and I'll put it that way. And so I'm lucky I get these other cultures. And, you know, I'm one of these people that likes things different.

I find it interesting. I don't need to be around people that are like me. And, you know, I actually really like to spend time with people who have incredibly different political beliefs than I do. I have no problem with it. I think you're allowed to have people in your life that, have different beliefs and it's okay to talk about them. Yeah. Was yours a religious family growing up?

Not really. I mean, my brother was Bar Mitzvud, but the girls were not. And we went to, you know, the high holidays once a year or twice a year, the two different, you know, holidays. And we went to our, traditionally went to our aunts and our cousins for all the holidays. And that was always it. And then, you know, I always just loved Christmas. How do you not love Christmas? So, you know, we had...

Did you have a Christmas tree growing up? Not growing up, but my husband and I did when my kids were little. And, you know, one of my sons actually ridiculed us for it. So we stopped, but then we got a dog. Because he didn't think it was Jewish. You can't be it. Well, yeah, he was young and he said, Mom, so we didn't do it. And then we got a dog who wasn't Jewish.

So then we started, you know, getting it. Christmas tree skin to celebrate our dog. So yes. Right. I mean, it's not our fault. It's what the dog was. Right. What are we going to do? I always did Easter eggs for my kids. You know, and we had, but then we had people over for Passover. So I hated spending the time reading the book. So we got the kids version. And everything I learned about Passover and Hanukkah was from the Rugrats. The TV show. The Rugrats, so, so educational. So it sounds, you appreciate the act of bringing your family together and having an excuse to be with them and celebrate. But you have not needed to assign to those holidays any kind of religious grounding, religious meaning.

No, my religion is being a good, caring, nice person. That's what I believe in. And you don't need a theology to tell you that. I don't. I don't. Yeah. And my dream is to be in the Hanukkah song with Adam Sandler, who I, recently met and told him, that's my dream.

So if he ever does another Hanukkah song, that's my dream. You just want to be a reference. You don't want to do a duet with it. You don't want to sing. Oh, no, I can't sing. As a matter of fact, not only can I not sing, but I thought I could until my fifth grade music teacher during practice came over to me and she said,

come here, and I thought she was going to tell me how great I was. She said, tonight could you mouth the words? Shut up. Isn't that awful? That is awful. I still can't sing happy birthday. No, because you were traumatized. I was trauma.

That was trauma. That was trauma. Yeah. That was trauma. Yeah. I feel really sad about that because I think everybody has a song in their heart and we should not judge people's voices because it's like a natural, beautiful thing to do. Right.

Damn that person. Now I want you to sing it with Adam Sandler. Okay. Three more cards. One, two, or three. Well, I'm going to do three because it's my favorite number. Okay. When do you feel connected to the people you've lost?

on holidays. Yeah. On their birthdays, on holidays. Yeah. And certainly in this book, I feel, you know, I have been having urges to call my mom. Yeah, that's a strong one, isn't it? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

I'm like, oh, I should call my mom, and I'm like, I can't. Yeah. Right. A thing will come up. Still, my mom's been gone, like, 15 years. Wow. And a specific thing will happen. A very small thing, right?

Yeah. My kid does well at something, or there's something about her family that I've forgotten, right? Like a detail, like, oh, right. Was your grandma, did she live in Kansas or Oklahoma? Right. And I'm like, oh, I just, oh, right. And it's so funny how it still happens so many years later. And it's funny.

Mine's always about guilt. Like, I feel guilty that, oh, my God, I haven't talked to her in a while. Oh, interesting. You know, because I'm like, not guilt, but, you know, I was always so busy with my kids and with work. And I'm like, you know, and I would call my mom in the car just to make sure I kept in touch. Yeah. She was proud of you. She was really proud of me.

Yeah. She was really proud of me. She really wanted me to open a Bobby Brown store in her retirement community. You didn't do it. I did not do it, no. And then I got, you know, she got a little bit of dementia, you know, at the end of her life. And it took her a while to understand that I wasn't with Bobby Brown anymore. I was with Jones Road.

Right. You know, so. Your kids got to know your mom, right? My kids got to know my mom, but they, you know, unfortunately they knew my mom not in a healthy way. You know, she was struggling. You know. Do you work to fill in the blanks of things you want them to know about these people? I mean.

Well, now they got to read the book now. Oh, good one. Ah. And then they could ask questions. No, I mean, my kids all love photos, and I have this incredible photo archive of every part of my life. And so on Mother's Day, I always sit down with my kids and have them look

at the old photo albums. That's a good one. You're good at that? You did them yourself? Oh, yeah. I'm a nutcase. Oh, are you? And now I have a digital archive that I am constantly I've got it all figured out. I mean, even what I'm shooting now, like, you'll

be in my archive. You know, it'll be under... I can't wait for your grandkids to be like, this was this is Rachel Martin from NBI. No, I did. I took a picture of your poster, and I'm going to take a picture of you right now, actually. Oh, my God. No, I'm telling you. I'm going to be in like your family. Okay, now I'm nervous. Smile. No, because so when I'm looking for some. I did my cheesy smile. No, you look gorgeous. When I, when I look for something, I'm like, oh, right, during the Stillbobie book tour, when I went on NPR. So it's got to be in a folder. It's on Dropbox. And I'll look up Stillbobby. And then I'll go, I'll look.

I'll look at NPR. Oh my God. You're like the most organized person I've ever met in my life. But if you literally walk into my bedroom on any given day, it's a mess. Like literally, you know, from... Does a mess for you mean like, oh, my God, they're like one dress laying a skew on the carpet? Oh, no, my bed's not made or, you know, I have someone that cleans my house twice a week. Yeah.

I mean, truthfully, you know, and those days when I come home, I'm so happy because... Who is time to make everything look perfect? I mean, I don't. This is a whole thing. Perfection is a lie. Yes. Okay. Last question.

One, two, or three? Three. Three. What truth guides your life more than any other? That's exactly it. Truth. It's not easy hearing or telling the truth, but it's really important. Wow.

That's a great answer. Yeah. Yeah. It is. And I want people to tell me the truth. If I ask you if you like something, I need to know. Right? Like, tell me the truth. Like, so many people are afraid to tell someone something that maybe is not easy to hear. It makes you uncomfortable or challenges your preconception. And it's also a waste of time. Like, you know, just tell me the truth so we can get on with it. Right. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. You pick one moment from your past to revisit.

It's not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose? It's a tough one because there's three births and a wedding. That's right. And those are my three favorite moments in life. My three children's births and my wedding to my husband. So since I can't choose one of those,

three, I'm going to choose my wedding. Okay. Tell me a moment in the wedding. Oh, there is so many moments. I remember, and there is a picture, and there's a picture of it, my first dance with my husband, first of all, I wore a white wedding dress mini. Mini! My legs were good then. It wasn't like micromini, but it did not touch my knees.

I did not wear stockings, which all the, apparently all the ants were. I went, she's not wearing stockings. I wore white, really cheap shoes because I knew they were going to go in the grass and get ruined. So I wore these disposable shoes. And the first dance, and my husband and I, I have a picture of us, our noses touching. It's still one of my favorite photos. I know exactly where it is in my drop box. And I just never felt more in love.

and more that this is where I was supposed to be. Still Bobby is the name of Bobby Brown's new memoir. It's out September 23rd. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for having me. If you enjoyed this conversation, you should go back and listen to the episode we did with actor Issa Ray. Issa is also a mobile with her own production company, and she knows how to bring her distinct vision into reality.

I loved the conversation that we had together. it was super empowering and also incredibly fun. Today's episode was produced by Summer Tomod and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni, and our theme music is by Ramteen Arablewee. You can reach out to us at wildcard at npr.org, and we're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week.

Talk to you then.