Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Chris Fleming

Episode Date: March 12, 2026

Chris Fleming takes his unique observations about the weirdness of everyday life and runs (and catapults and crawls and prances) with them. In his latest HBO special, "Live at the Palace," his manic physicality and singularly rich descriptions are the perfect recipe for comedy magic. He spoke with Rachel about overcoming skeptical industry gatekeepers, his love of dance, and his muse, Terry Gross.To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Just a heads up, there's a little bit of cursing in this episode. What's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing? Oh, so many, Rachel. It's those moments where you are so bucked. Like, those are the moments where your heart, your grinch heart grows, you know, 10 sizes. Those are the only times that I grow and take it to the next level. I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life.

Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is Chris Fleming. My audience holds me completely. I mean, you don't want to see me perform for an audience that doesn't see me. I mean, that can be brutal. I'm like a vampire. I need to be invited in.

After watching Chris Fleming's new HBO comedy special, live at the palace, I had this strange ache in my face. Because of the permigrant I'd been holding for more than an hour. I grinned and guffod my way through the entire thing. My God, I laughed so hard at one point I was tearing up. It is my great pleasure to welcome the comedic genius known as Chris Fleming to Wildcard. Hi. Hi, Rachel.

Thank you so much for having me. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm ready, Rachel. Round one. Memories. Ooh. These are the cards. We even got the branding on the back.

What do you think this is? Like, we're NPR, man. Usually, I think a tote material for NPR. I've never seen a gloss to end to, okay. That's right. That's what we are. We're glossy. Okay, you pick one, two, or three.

I'm picking, I saw a clip of Oprah doing this with you, and she picked two, so I'm picking two. What's something you took away from your first job? My first job was I was a greeter at a local country club, and I was too young. My dad was, I think, my dad started working as like a ship rat when he was like, like, like, he grew up in, he was born in like 48. So he grew up in East Boston and he was, I think he was probably working in kindergarten. Like that, that's kind of the vibe of that area. So he wanted me to kind of follow in the same footsteps.

And I think he was also concerned about, about my work ethic. So I got a, he got me a job. I think I was like maybe fifth, sixth grade. And I greeted people at this country club. And I think that that grounded me in a real, in a way that I'm really grateful for. The idea of money not being nebulous anymore, the idea of like, okay, you do this, you get,

this is what this means. And it's like you put this in and you can get this out. I was just really grateful for that understanding. But no, I had no desire to be the country club people. I'm still curious as to what you did. You just stood at the door and you said, welcome, Mr. Pendergrast.

Yeah, I would put their golf club, I would talk to them, and I would put their clubs on golf carts. I would kind of like talk them up a little bit. I would, because I wanted the most coveted job in our town was to be a caddy. So we all took this course to be a caddy, and I was eliminated round one of like three. There were like maybe 10 rounds, and I was eliminated. I'm very sorry, but what do you have to do to get eliminated from being a caddy?

You have to lose the guy's pitching witch. Oh. I don't know what that is, but that sounds bad. It's a club, and I lost it. it in the marsh. I lost, I think those clubs are hundreds of dollars. And so, yeah. Yeah, I was asked to, I was asked to step down and relinquish.

My role. And then I was ultimately let go for sunbathing on one of the greens. I was topless. I was topless going full Ferris B. Just on the green. And they were like, I'll never forget, Jim, aka coach. He said, Chris. God made you and he threw away the mold.

We can't work with you anymore, though. And I had to leave. And I got another job. I think at a dry cleaner, but I was allergic to the... I'm allergic to cats, so that was bad. What was your first job? Oh, it's not nearly as exciting. I mean, I worked at a golf club, but I was in college.

Not, but... What was that one of my first jobs? I mean... Don't tell me you were a cart girl. Yes! Oh, my God. You know what that is? I had such a crush on the car girls.

I mean, they truly like Farrah Fawcett. Like the image of the car girl, hair in the wind, doing a little bit of a wave, giving out Mikhailov ultras to these horrible misogynists who are literally wolf whistling her. I mean, it was just, it's not a good job. I mean, it's a good job. And then you get a lot of cash. But this was before Me Too, you know, this was the 90s. It's literally Marilyn Monroe trying to cover.

pushing the skirt. It was not. No, it's horrible. That was horrible. The way, because it's like, it's almost like maritime law, the golf course. Because there's no jurisdiction. No, it's technically

on a incorporated land. Yeah, yeah. And they're getting progressively drunker. Yeah. They're all bad at golf. Oh, yeah. I mean, let's just so they're getting frustrated. Yeah. And also, golf shirts also, like, I mean, it's like the opposite of Spanx.

Like I don't believe that there's anything horrible about the human body until I see a guy in a golf shirt. And I'm like, Jesus, fucking Christ. And it's like the shine of it, it's like, but it's like the color of a hospital wall. But like if you lacquered it, it's like, what are we doing, guys? Okay. Question number two. Okay. Oh, my God, we're only at two.

Okay, one, two, or three. Okay, can we pick card? Oh, you want me to pick one, one. No, no. No, I was just, I was just reminding you. One, two, or three. I'm easily bought. I'm easily, you can, one.

I love it. Okay, one. Yeah. What did you reject as a teenager? Ooh. I think what I started rejecting as a teen, I was, what comes to mind is I was friends with jocks, and God loved them in middle. school.

Who are you? Kind of the ruling class socially of my... I take that back. I sounded surprised in that response and I want to rewind that because... You hit a mezzo-soprano when you asked it. Where are you? Yeah. You did the Moriah Carey note.

No, it's very surprising. But let me... To be clear, I was the... It was very much the donkey with horses situate. Like I was not... Like, they... I was very maternal to them. I think I was very soothing.

I think that's why they liked me. And they had me on their soccer team and everything. And the only goal I ever scored was accidentally was tripping over the ball. And you would have thought it was like an old dog's birthday party the way that they celebrated me. Like they were so sweet and everything. But there was a there was still this kind of, they were prisoners of cool in Massachusetts. And I went to high school. And then I started rejecting the kind of the social norm or like the hierarchy of what was caring about that.

Instead, I opted for connection and foregoing that kind of oppressive desire for status, I guess, in the society. So that's an amazing thing to do in middle school. As a parent of two middle school boys, how, I mean, how, how, you know, how, how you. How do you, how did you do that? Because that takes a kind of courage and self-confidence that are in short supply when you're 12, 13, 14. The way I was able to do it was through a very deep friendship with someone else who was also going through that. And we were kind of, we were like, let's get out of these shackles. We didn't say so much as this. Yeah. But we just started, we were so close. And it was much more fun to live.

live a freaky or uninhibited lifestyle and we laughed more and we weren't afraid and I have so much love for for you know the jocks the ruling class but it just it wasn't an organic fit and I yeah I just I think friendship wins over over that and and what a lucky thing to have helped that other friend. Oh, so lucky. Harford. Yeah, his name's Hartford. Chris Harford.

Well, because we're both named Chris, so we call each other by our last name. Are you still close with Chris, other Chris? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he just got married. And I think I can say this, in the Russian Orthodox Church. And so I had to, got to, hold a crown over his head and chase him around. Have you seen that?

I have not. I have not witnessed that particular. ritual. Yeah, and luckily there were other Russians. He married a Russian Orthodox, lovely woman, and her brothers are all these strong Russian men, and so they could tell when I was shaking, so they would come and tap me out and take over, and like, it was beautiful. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, last one in this round, one, two or three. Three, please. Three. What story does your family always tell about you? My mom

Okay, can I tell two? Yeah. Real quick. Three years old, my sister's taken ballet. She is dancing, dancing, dancing. And then a little three-year-old me, and I didn't speak until I was three. My sister spoke for me. I wanted to dance too.

So I get up, she's like, okay, Chrissy, you could dance. I do a little dance. She goes, okay, Chrissy, that's enough. puts me back on her lap. We're both facing out. And she starts feeling these drops on her leg. My tears. I wanted to keep dancing. Yeah, the ballet. I was drawn to the ballet. Then another one that she tells is she was very concerned about my performance in school. My sister, 18 months older than me, salutatorian queen of the town. Just everyone just, oh, Katie Flynn, like just the best person. And so this bought me a lot of goodwill with the teachers for a couple weeks. And then they were like, wait a second. We're under you.

Yeah, this one's different. This one's wretched. And so my mom was, my mom, my mom was, um, she wanted an army of, uh, undeniable, undeniable children, right? She wanted people, she wanted us to be fucking baller. And then my mom was,

there was this tension of this like, Chris, Chris! And then she saw me in a play. My junior year of high school, where I improvised, I was a woman with multiple personality disorder. And so I had, this was back in the, you know,

pre-9-11 days. So, or actually, right. So, like, personality disorders were still, It was still okay to do that in a class play and have it be fun. You were not canceled, yes. No, no, no. And so she saw me improvising on stage and she said, and the story she tells is she goes, ah, I get it. Okay, that's where he's putting this.

That's where all this is going. And so she started investing in being like, where can we, this looked at us. looked up open mics for stand-up in the area. So she was into it. She saw it. Oh, yeah. She was like, okay, this is where all of that is going. But what about in the initial, the first story with the crying and the, I need to just dance.

The dance is in me and I need to dance. How did she respond to that? Did you have to work to get access to that part of yourself? Or did she sign you up for lessons or how'd that go? She did not. No, no, this was a puritanical nuance. England. This was, so no, I had to just kind of let that out socially through social dance. I just started dancing in college. I'm very, very passionate about dancing.

What do you love about it? Oh, I love, I mean, I think language is limiting, to be honest. Sometimes I get bored. Tell me about it. I'm like a talker for a living and I'm still like, no. Do you ever like think like, oh yeah, I'm going to really get there with this? And then you start talking. You're like, that's not like. It's not the right words, yeah. No, no, it's something. I think it's such a dead end. And then like, and then you can get on stage and your body can do things.

I mean, I used to see it when I, at college, the modern dancers seeing what they, I mean, me and my friend Gere, you know, at our freshman orientation, it just changed everything. This group called Terpsicry, right? The way that the contemporary ballet and modern, it was, I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just amazing. But at some point there was like a, I'm pretty funny. I'm also a good dancer. I guess I'm funnier than I am a good dancer. I always wanted to be a comedian. That was always the goal.

And as soon as I saw my dad watch Robin Williams and Morg and Mindy and the way he was laughing, I was like, that's what I want to do. And so that was always the goal. I liked choreographing things in high school. But I never even Until this round of press I never even really considered How much dance means to me

And people have just been asking me about it And I've been like oh I guess I haven't explored it that much You do move your body a lot in this special I do yeah yeah yeah Oh my God let's get into it Let's get into it Okay so we're gonna step away from the game

And let's just talk about your special Because You like the pants fit a little bit Like suazy I think And dirty dancing I mean this is my first question to you. Okay. The costume is chef's case. Tony. Tony Sartino, who made clothes

for Prince from 2000 and 2013. I looked him up because I saw Prince in this golden sequin outfit and also these high collars and I said, who was making these? And I reached out to him and we started working together and he's just, the gentle knowing that this man has, I mean, the elegance that this man has. He is, none of this the current momentum I have right now, I would say, is largely due to the clothes that Tony makes for me. Okay, we need to describe this outfit for people who have not yet seen the special. Yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry.

I have a pre-operational way of thinking that everyone has experienced everything that I've seen and experienced. So I apologize for that. I never give it up details. I mean, this is also on me, because it's so seared into my mind, I'm like, doesn't everyone know what you look like because it's unforgettable. All right. Purple body suit. Deep v. neck.

Plunging. Plunging, if you will. Stiff, big collar. Although it gets a little floppy because I'm moving around someone. Oh, that's true. Butterfly? Broach on the back? He calls it a butterfly.

Yeah, I think it's more of a dragonfly, but Tony insists it's a butterfly, so he would know. He got it. I love it. I haven't looked at it too much because it's on my back. It's not of my business. It's true. It's true. But it's just like he got me coming and going.

There's something interesting no matter which side of me you look at. Okay. So that I just want to give. And Ruby Red Slippers. Ruby Red slippers is right. Sorry, Ruby Red Dance shoes. Those are a salsa shoe, a Capizio, that were bedazzled. They're amazing.

I mean, the whole thing is just so good. But I want to talk about the moment at the very beginning because this could have just been. you know, this long sleeve, beautiful, long lines. But it's a big to do, Chris, because you take them off. The sleeves come off, and it's a big old thing. And then there's a big moment. And walk me through why it was important to you that you be able to remove your clothing at the beginning of this. Oh, it's because, I mean, I do burlese for the sex.

negative. There was so much in that sentence that I wasn't quite sure if I was reacting to the right thing. The way you reacted, I was like, oh, no, Rachel, thanks I'm being serious. I was like, oh, okay. In my theater, I've been doing theater shows for so long, like, kind of in the shadows. And like all great fungi, you know, we grow best in the shadows, right?

And so I have been kind of experiencing all these things, like all these kind of unspoken tricks. And because we only have so many tricks as performers, a lot of performer. If it's just you on the stage, you've got to hit certain beats. You've got to hit certain decibels. And you've got to make that room shake. And I found that when I remove an article of clothing, people get a little rodeo. And so we knew, Tony knew, that my arms had to be. out because I'm moving around so much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I perform a tank. I mean, I can do, I can wear something up top. Uh-huh. But then we talked a lot about when do the sleeves come off. Okay. And the more we talked about it. Really?

Yeah, it kept getting earlier and earlier. It was going to be halfway, and then people were like, you know what, let's take the ladies out. Let's just take the ladies out right up top. You have beautiful arms. I mean, they're very long, and also, and your legs are long. And the dancer in you, I mean, you can't help yourself. Every time you extend a limb, you're like, you're finishing it, Chris. You like finish it.

Your toes are perfectly pointed. See, that's what I'm talking about with dance. It's not conscious. No, it's just like muscle memory. Yeah, the body saves you, you know, through the instincts of the body. And of course, through the modern dance teaching and the accepting of gravity and understanding entropy and how all things fall apart. That's true to a wish, Abe, but like, you know, you're going to, you have to kind of accept,

accepting all that. Side-specific work that we were taught at improv dance, that's what makes that all work. I mean, I think I'm way less, way less inspired by ballet, although I do love to defy, I do love to go up, but I really think, I really think where I thrive is the coming down. I think that the accepting, the falling, all that shit. And just like the boom. You're good on the ground. You're good on the ground.

I love being. I am drawn to the ground. It's good there, though. Like you're moving and you're comfortable. It's not weird. I was so, I was just like, we could just be down here. There's like one time you're down. The mic's down here.

I'm like, that feels safe down there with you. It feels so nice to rest down there. Yes. Yes. In child's pose for a second. I feel so good. I'm just like talking shit about Lauren Michaels while I'm lying down. I don't even have to look at the audio.

Oh, it's the mic on the, I don't have to hold anything. Oh, my God. Also, there, and you talked about this in another interview, but you do enjoy putting all your body weight on small furniture. And it seems painful, though, to me. Well, there's, there's, I get so bruised and battered in these, after these shows. Do you? Yeah.

Oh, completely. And weird things. actually in the Terry Gross bit where I'm squeezing, I'm Terry Gross straddling Adam Driver on a stool. And so I'm squeezing the stool. And you wouldn't think it, but that's where I get bruised the most from that. So it's never, the things that look like, oh, God, like Chris is not going to get back up. Those things aren't the worst. It's the weird things that hurt me the most.

Yeah. That's when you know you're getting old, by the way. It's like things that shouldn't hurt you do. Like when you're pretending to be NPR's iconic Terry Gross squeezing acclaimed actor. Adam Driver at the neck with your thighs Thank you

Thank you That's even funnier When you describe it That's so much funnier Yeah But at this point This is the point In the conversation

Where I as the host of an NPR podcast Need to ask more About your perceived reverence For Terry Gross What is your muse? You're talking about TG right now? I'm talking about the terror.

I've never met the terror, so I don't, I mean. Of course you have. No, I don't even think the Obama had access to Terry. I mean, Terry records from what I've heard in like a chamber in Philadelphia facing like a window. She doesn't want to see the people. She's in like a sensory deprivation tank, right? She's like on the sea floor. Like, and no one has access to.

She's like the chubacabra if it was. like a, if it went to Wesleyan or wherever she went, you know? Like, the mystery of Terry. But it's also wonderful because we do as the host of a show where people are supposed to spill their guts. Terry's like, no, thank you. People don't need to know me. Like, I'm, I will be asking the questions here, you know? That's, and I think it's, that's the power that I'm tapping into when I try to talk about her.

And also, I relate to that. I also, I think that sometimes, I think people bleed too much about themselves. And then as soon as when they do, not, not. you, not interviewers. Of course not. Yeah. No, no. But I mean like comedians, I think sometimes it's like, like, okay, we get it.

Like, I think sometimes we know too much about people. Right. And I think there are very few mystical beings left in this world, Sufjohn Stevens, Terry Gross. Who else? That's it. It's a short list. All of Sweden.

Or Iceland. Sweden or Iceland. But there is such a... Yeah, I love someone who activates my magical realism. Like who really, who just ignites it. Because I think that's my... I think that's kind of what I do is a lot of the time. I'm drawn to magical realism.

And Terry, I have been obsessed with Terry Gross for years. Really? And yeah. Do you need to make this happen? I mean, I don't know. You know, it's like a point in the horizon.

No, no. I couldn't meet her. I mean, we could do, I think I might, I think my heart might just stop. I think I might just evaporate after I met Terry Gross because my,

my hero's journey is complete. And then I can fade, fade back, fade back into the Atlantic. It is hilarious. I hope that you are enjoying all of the wonderful feedback that I hope you're getting because it is a fantastic experience. I'm not joking. So thank you for making it.

Thank you, Rachel. I really appreciate that. Round two. Cards are blue. One, two or three. This is insights. This is insights. I should have told you.

What do you mean? Okay, I guess we'll know. I don't know. Who knows? It's up to you to interpret. I don't have any insights, Rachel. You have more insights than me. I'm just impulsive.

Okay, what did you pick? What did you impulsively pick? I can't remember. Two. Because Oprah did it. Yeah, that's right. What's a quality you're drawn to that you don't possess? The ability to be blunt with people.

Oh, interesting. You can't do that? I'm getting better at it. And the ability to kind of like, you know, be like no and like this is like it's a you know that that that kind of new jersey quality do you think that's a that's an admirable quality because sometimes a person who's blunt it's it's it's sometimes not nice oh I think I think that I was raised to be so um surrendering my own needs for for others and that um I'm not even in touch like I could truly be a blaze right now and

and be trying to make you more comfortable that's the way that I was raised. And so, unless I'm on stage, that's the one area where I can run amok. But interpersonally, I'm very, very tapped into other people's experiences. And so I'm very, I would say overly deferential a lot of the time in trying to make everything okay. And so I really admire, I'm just really drawn to people who are good and kind, but also able to kind to be like, no, that's enough. Like, I, I, yeah, I couldn't imagine being like that. So I really like that in a person.

But I'm getting better. I'm getting better. With old age comes that my twilight years. Next. Oh, okay. Three. One, two, three. Okay.

Three. When do you feel most like an outsider? Okay. Could I say in reality? Yes. I think that I've come to terms with, like, I could be present and all that. But I think that a lot of my, the way I'm wired, I think I'm more of an observer than I had ever really known. And so I think in reality, it's almost like I need to have an experience and then process, like I need the time alone to process.

what that was. And so I think I can feel apart very often in almost anything, especially the older I get it. Maybe I'm just more in tune with it or the life or like the career that I have. That makes sense to me. I mean, I can feel very much like floating above things, not above it. I understand what you mean. Apart apart from it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like kind of like a like a peeping Tom. But as a performer, doesn't that help you to sort of disassociate that way? Unfortunately, performing disconnects you from, because people, people, I think that people who I haven't talked to in forever, like, see what I'm doing and they think that we are in touch because they're seeing that. And I'm not getting that. Like, I get so much, but it is a one-sided thing.

And it can obviously yield such narcissism because the dopamine, you're like, I keep, I keep, like, loving that attention. But then also, ultimately, you're like, wait. Because you're craving this, like, grander thing than the thing that you actually need, which is the two-sided, like, how you're doing, man. Like, it can take you further from that. Like, the busier you are, the more. So I think performance, while it's the best thing for the soul in so many ways, in terms of. Dude, I just think about college. I mean, the way, adult life post-colle, like, we are, we were set up for such social success in college, like the way, like those bonds and everything.

And it is just so hard to maintain social stuff after, you know, with that intimacy. Yeah. So are you trying, are you, it sounds like you're aware of that. So do you work at it? You're to try to counterbalance the, like, dopamine hit of the performer, Chris, performer Chris. and all the affirmation and validation that comes from that and then

go to your people your real relationships and recharge and concern for everybody else outweighs that ultimately all the time which is great which is which is one

thank God but like I could see how you understand how people become fucking maniacs you know like I'm getting attention

right now this week that is like I don't know it's like but I can I understand that that that attention keeps you from the art, it keeps you from the right,

it keeps you from the thing that is getting you the attention. So it's like, I got to just, you know. Move through it and then kind of forget about it. Forget about it. Forget about it. That's your catchphrase, right? Definitely. Definitely.

I think I saw that. Okay. One, two, or three. One, please. One. What's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing? Oh, so many, Rachel. I mean, I had an adult swim show that we were sure was going to go to series,

and then it didn't. And I was leveled. I mean, I had just rescued a senior dog thinking that I was going to, you know, the money of that and that was all part of this. I'm very bad at making financial decisions before something happens, and then I often, like, level myself. But if I hadn't had that, I would not have gotten as serious as I did about stand-up after. Because I was like, it's those moments where you are so fucked. Right. Like those are the moments where your heart, your grinch heart grows, you know, 10 sizes.

But the, no, like, the. no like being able to be like well I am completely fucked how are we gonna how do we regroup and move from this that is that is just life is just hitting your chin on the pool over and over and then and then just those are the only times that I grow and and and but it is to the next level it is there are certain people who are just built without resilience though Because a creative rejection like that, I think for most people, takes a long time. Or you go back to the woodshed and retool and have a lot of self-judgment about, am I even good at this? And it's interesting to me that you went back to the woodshed and you came out with stand.

Stand up is so vulnerable. It's like you strip everything back. You know, there's no TV show around it. It's just you and you're writing and you're performing. So that's what you came out of the woodshed with. which is so amazing. Because you don't need, like, 30 producers. Yeah.

Fucking needle dicks in, you know, plastic, frame, those clear frame glasses every producer has who love to have pitch rehearsal media. It's like, I get it. Your salary. Some of us, you know, like, they just like over and over again, just like development. Just fucking kill me. Like, you know what?

How about I go out on fucking stage and I just paint the image that I, that you and I would have to work on for two years to the point where I don't even care about that idea anymore. I've already moved on to something else. And then ultimately, we're about to have it made. And then the CEO steps down. Right. And it's over. They sell to a different corporate overlord and the whole thing's gone. Whenever anyone loves me at a TV studio, that's what I'm like, oh, God, I turn the sand timer over because they have three weeks left at that place before they are extradited. Like, you're the harbinger of doom. of doom.

There's an inverse relationship between the longevity of said CEO and their love for you. Exactly. That's when I go, okay, don't invest in Netflix guys because, yeah. But I think that the disappointments, I think, are, and again, I mean, so many disappointments as a young comic, because it was like I got attention early on, and then there was nothing for a while because I was kind of going through this, a different experience. expression of my gender. And I met with a certain manager at Three Arts who was like, who was going to sign me. But then he was like, what's with the women's clothes, dude? And I was like, oh, shit. Okay. And then he just like kind of lectured at me about that. And we didn't end up working together. And I was managerless for like six years or seven years. And yeah. And there was, there were other people like that that were like, yeah, you know, we love Fleming. But like, the wearing these like, wearing these clothes. And this, it's, and this. And this. And this. And this. And this. This was like 2011, so it was, I was like, shit.

Could they ever finish the sentence? Like, the wearing the clothes? What's with the women's clothes, man? That was that, I'll never forget that. I felt so fun. It was like, ooh, it was bone chilling because we were in his office. And then he just did like a Bill Burbitt for me, like literally quoted a Bill Burbitt for like basically being like, Bill doesn't need to wear women's clothes, which he doesn't.

But, yeah, it was a really weird experience. Do you remember what you said? Or did you say nothing? And you just... I think I was like... God, I don't know. No, I think I was like, oh, I like them. Yeah.

Yeah. And I didn't feel like I was going to have to defend it in this moment. Yeah, yeah. But, so, you know, that's one of those things where culture can take a little bit of time to catch up to you. And I think of the hustler, Paul Newman, you know, he tries to win the pool game in the beginning, but he doesn't have the character yet. And then you go through your shit and you become ironclad. And not to say I'm ironclad, I'm incredibly fragile.

No, but aren't you so much freer now? Like just, I'm watching you on that stage. Completely free. I'm completely. I don't know how you fake that kind of freedness. So you seem to me like. someone who is... Well, they hold me.

My audience holds me completely. I mean, you don't want to see me perform for an audience that doesn't see me. I mean, that can be brutal. Because the physical stuff, I'm like a vampire. I need to be invited in. The physical stuff needs to be... I need to get that encouragement.

I truly one time got stuck in a somersault. They weren't laughing hard enough, so I couldn't continue. So I was stuck. I was truly stuck in this position. Flaney from Largo talks about it. I was stuck from... I want to say 10 minutes.

And I'm just like... I was locked. Wait, I don't get it because you needed them to laugh in order to release the Somersault? It's a consensual relationship. You need their laughter to keep you moving. I'm not a psycho. Like, I'm not going to be gallivanting around if they're not with me. I mean, it is a full, it is a collaboration.

That's why you can't rehearse it. Like, you are working together and they, the space, also the theater, the theater that we chose, the width of the stage was really important. It took, we would time my sprint across on every stage that we toured. And this one took like four or five seconds for me to sprint across. So I was like, we got to do it here. Because that's a, that is a big stage. Yeah. And so the space also really helps inspire you.

But I love that idea that it's, that you are propelled. Literally, you're physically propelled by the audience's affirmation and response to you. That's a beautiful thing. That's like a tricky, beautiful thing. It is wonderful. I mean, caffeine helps. But you do need the people. Speaking of caffeine.

Screw that guy! That guy makes me pissed. Yeah, that guy sucks. That guy sucks. That guy sucks. You just say that out loud. I don't think he works there anymore. Good. I hope he doesn't work anywhere.

All right. This is the beliefs round. Chris, three more. One, two, or three. One place. Are there any recurrence? symbols that show up in your life? Um, yeah.

Whenever I see, um, uh, a heron, I think, of my mom, because, um, sorry, sorry, the, uh, yeah, talks through sickness and stuff. The her, um, for some reason, I think, to her, represented her mom. And so through, um, yeah. Let me flip it. What about you? Seagull. Oh, same? Okay, birds. Yeah. My mom died in 2009.

And God bless her. She was from, like, landlocked Idaho. But she had this idea that the seagull was the most beautiful bird because it was near the beach and the water and the ocean, which is a place she never got to go. And this, like, trash-eating ratbird. my mom imbued with such like majesty. Well, she didn't know that they could also go to park. They also like parking lots a lot. And also they're on Lake Michigan and I get so embarrassed for them.

It's like, oh, they think this is the ocean. I know. It's so sad. But that was her bird. And, yeah. And so I get like weird seagulls coming up to me. And I don't care what anyone says. They are coming up just to me, okay?

They're just coming up to me. It's not because of the pastrami sandwich in my hand. They are just coming up to commune and to be like, Hi, honey, I'm still around. I still got you back and you're doing fun. Yeah, it's really sweet. Is her mom still around? I'm sorry I don't know this.

Oh, she is, yeah. Yeah, yeah, she is. There's stuff. But, yeah, yeah, yeah. birds are powerful that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. God, NPR, you're good. You're good. Also, the heron.

Let's just be clear. Of the birds, the heron is a much more beautiful bird than the seagull. Listen, seagull's going to bad a rabbit because they hang out at Home Depot a lot, like the parking lot of them. But, like, the way that they fly without moving and they look like a marionette, you know? That's true. Like, that's gorgeous. That's true. Okay.

I'm going to put that in my, like, things that are beautiful. about Seagull's trove. I love that you see her and not because it's just undeniable. Like that's the way the world works. Well, it's also like my parents were very religious and my mom had like this really expansive, beautiful kind of faith. And there's something Christian-y about or Jesus-y about the like trash bird being like a beautiful thing, like the poor, you know, maligned person and being elevated by faith

or Jesus or whatever we want to call. And my mom did that a lot too. So it matches. I love it. I mean, it's so beautiful. Like someone it landlocked. I mean, it's like, to me that represents hope, you know? It's like.

Yes. It's, it's. Now you go. It's. Yeah. Because she always, she was a big dreamer. You know, she was an art. Oh, God, now I'm off.

I'm all off on it, Chris, but you'll appreciate it. Because she, she was an artist and she, she, but she lived. in this really tiny rural town in Idaho, and she married a man. But she could have had this other, this other different life. And I don't know that it would be better. A lot. It would have been really, really different. And I think she did harbor a lot of hopes and aspirations that never were really allowed to be fulfilled.

What kind of art? She was a sculptor. Oh, my God. She made cool stuff. She made really cool stuff. beautiful things. For that generation, I'd think mostly as a masculine thing. The sculptors. She was a welder. She decided she wanted to take a class, and then she took a welding class, and she made this huge sculpture that's like this big metal thing and this big thing of barbed wire.

And she's this really very sweet woman, and we saw this piece and we're like, whoa, mom. A steampunk. Totally steampunk. Totally. Your mom was a master of fire. She was... That's crazy. She was a witch who worked with wires. You're saying she was making barbed wire sculptures?

That's right. She was hardcore. Linda Scarborough Martin was her name. Linda Scarborough Martin. She was epic. That's a Paul Simon song right there. Linda Scarborough Martin. Thanks really.

We talk about her. Thank you for sharing about her. I feel like I can talk about her all the time on the show. People are going to be like, I get it. Enough about your mom. No, no. bad. Chris made me.

One, two, or three? Three, please. Okay, this is also deathy. Do you think there's any part of us that lives on after we die? Oh, my God, of course. Which part? All of us. The way, I mean, when you experience death and the way that the signs come immediately,

the communication is undeniable. I mean, no, it's, it's. They're even when a part of somebody, fuck, starts to like fade, you know. It's like you can feel them. It's like a redistribution. Yes. Yes. In other ways.

And so, oh, no, no, I feel a deep connection with ancestral stuff. I love the word redistribution. is a beautiful word. And I don't mean that. It's not that it's clinical. It's just, it just is. It just is. Oh, yeah.

And then we're over here. Yeah, yeah, completely. Completely. And, yeah. Yeah. I think anyone who experiences death feels that. And also, you know, I don't really think too much about like where we go, you know. But I know from experiencing that, oh, the way that you care, the way that they're also out there and also the way that we're dramaturg or scribes, you know, our souls are for their souls.

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. God, damn it. I got to stop doing NPR. You guys are killing me. Oh, my God. This is the last question.

Camel's not doing this. Kimmel. Actually, I think he would. I don't know, Jiml's Mackey. But I think he has a big, soppy heart. Oh, that's true, right. He's weepy. He's got those two sides.

He's got the man show side and then the emo side. Totally. All right. Last one. One, two, or three. Let's do one, please. What's something you want younger generations to understand? Okay.

Get on your soapbox. Okay, okay. And then balance all of your body weight on it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that there is so much impetus or so much importance, sorry, put on the algorithm and on the mechanization of social media and everything. And there's about putting stuff out there in numbers. And I think that people are forgetting that there are people on the other side of the algorithm or whatever that is. and to no longer fear the algorithm and to not live in subservience to these companies or designs that reward arbitrary things,

because that's not the road to your own creative salvation or also a lasting career. I think that it's really important to remember that we are, as entertainers or writers or whatever we are to remember that we are trying to land with people and even if that's not rewarded algorithmically you just need to follow your muse that's what I would say to young people and to just and to devote yourself to the craft

or whatever that is to the trade because there's nothing more rewarding than a long road and starting to feel like you can authentically represent yourself how you once desired to as a child. It's just the best feeling. And it took me a long-ass time. And but it just feels so great to be able to do it and to be able to feel good about it.

We end the show the same way with a trip in our memory time machine. Okay? In the memory time machine, you pick one moment from your past that you'd like to revisit. It's not a moment you want to change in. anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. Summer 05. Summer 05. You knew right away. Summer 05. Why? It was a summer senior year. Well, what's yours, Rachel? You tell me. Oh, we can't flippity, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip this one. Someone did that last week, and now everyone's flipping the memory time machine with abandon. I mean, I, no, you tell me, and then

maybe I'll tell you. I mean, it's just very simple. Summer 05, it was a summer of my senior year. me and my friend group, we had never been closer. We knew that we were leaving something behind and going into the unexplored college world. And I think about my friend Dick's Lakehouse and we're all in the dock trying to catch fish with our hands or something. And we're having a dance party. Because we didn't drink until college. So we were just sober dancing. It was just exquisite.

I just loved it. So all that music I listen to from that era under, not from, but that we listen to under pressure, don't stop a leaving, Ger. I got really into Journey. That's when you know you're having a formative moment when Journey speaks to you. It was just gorgeous, Rachel. I just loved it. Yeah. I love that.

What about you? Oh, you want my thing. Okay. Yeah. I have to sit for a second and conjure one because I don't just have them like teed up. I mean, oh, but see, now I feel like I'm being influenced by your answer, but I don't care. Because in my mind, what's happening right now is also a dance party. My kids are maybe one and three.

We are in the kitchen. And Farrell's song Happy is on. Of course. And all the pots and pans have been pulled out. There's half a box of Cheerios just like that. lying on the ground. Yeah, yeah. And they're just feral.

And I'm sleep deprived and like, what have I done? I don't even know how to do this mothering thing. Like, what is even happening? And like my older kid who's like three would just like give me a grin and just like shake his little booty. And I was like, oh, you're right. That's what we're going to do here. We're going to.

We're going to dance. We are going to dance. We are happy in the Cheerios, May. And that is what we're going to do. And I love those dance parties so much. Are you saying you're stomping amongst the chirio? The chirios are on a counter? No, they're on the floor.

You stomping, stereo. Just gave up, Chris. It's not, uh-uh. The chaos is permanent. Yeah. And we're just going to dance our way through it. It's all about dancing in the chirio. It's really.

The only antidote to despair in my book is like the little dance party, if you know what I mean. I think you do. Of course, I know exactly what you mean. Chris Fleming, his new special is on HBO. You can check it out now. It is very worth your while. It's just been a complete joy. Thank you for doing this.

It's been such a joy. Thank you, Rachel. I'm sorry I got emotional. Thank you for talking to me. I loved Chris's answer to the question. what's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing? And it made me wonder how some of you might answer that question as well. So if you are game, I would love it if you could record a voice memo of your answer

and email it to Wildcard at npr.org. Again, the question is, what's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing? Include your name and where you're from, and it might end up in a future episode. This episode was produced by Alicia Zhang and Summer Tollmod. It was edited by Dave. Dave Blanchard and mastered by Maggie Luthar. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni, and our theme music is by Romteen Arabuoy.

You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.