Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Erykah Badu's goals are intentionally unreachable

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

Erykah Badu is best known for her music career, but her resume is much more diverse than that. She's an actor, who can be seen now in The Piano Lesson. She's a doula, who helps welcome new life into the world. And she also helps guide people at the end of their life. She and Rachel talk about intentionally setting unreachable goals, letting go of certain thoughts, and space shuttles.To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Well, I know the answer to this question. No, you don't. Okay. You're right. Do you think there's more to reality than we can see or touch? No. See, you thought you knew that. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard.

The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. So each album is very, very special. My guest this week is Erica Badu. But I just, as an artist, I just want to do more every time. Before we started rolling, I did what I always do with guests.

I reminded Erica about the game and how this wasn't going to be a, quote, normal interview. Erica responded, good, because I don't do normal interviews. And it definitely wasn't. She sees the world differently than most people. And I don't mean to get all woo-woo, but it's like she's inhabiting a different plane of existence. Things are more colorful there, like a kaleidoscope of what is and what could be. Her music is like that too. Erica Badu's breakout album, Baduism, came out in 1997, and it defied all the regular categories of music.

To this day, her sound transcends genre. Jazz, pop, soul. Yes, all of it, or none of it. It doesn't matter. Erica Badu has never been about other people's characterizations of her. She's more expansive than that. She's a deeply spiritual person who ushers people in and out of this world at the bedside of births and deaths.

And yes, she's a singer and an actor. You can see her now in the Netflix adaptation of August Wilson's The Piano Lesson. And just a heads up, she uses some pretty explicit language throughout our conversation. Erica Badu is also a bona fide fashion icon. I'm not just saying that because she has amazing style. Last month, the Council of Fashion Designers of America named her fashion icon of the year. So I couldn't just wear anything for this interview, right?

It had to be at least sort of interesting. I went into my closet and picked out a vintage red leather jacket that I got in a London thrift shop 20 years ago. I mean, I think it's pretty cool, but when I got into the interview, Erica Badu started giving me a fashion consultation. Yeah, let me see how I live so. I don't think it's going to look cute.

I just want to see. It's just a t-shirt. Mine, too. Mine is inside out. Yeah, but you know what? You're just cuter. Mine's just like a dumb costume. Or just like a...

That shit is punk. Do you think? Okay, keep the jacket on. Okay, thank you. So, um, this is like a game. Are you a game person? Like, when your family says... That's all I want to do is play.

Ah. That's a good answer. That's a good answer. That's all. There's a lot of serious stuff. And we don't do enough play in our life in general, I think. I agree. All right, well, then let's do it. Let's play. Let's play. Okay. This is how it goes. Okay, so I've got a deck of cards in front of me. Each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer. I'm going to hold up three at a time and you'll pick one at random. Okay. That's a question I'll ask you. You've got two tools to use. Okay. You get one skip. So if you're just not jibing with a particular question, skip it. One skip. Yeah, one skip. And you get you. get one flip. One flip. So you can ask me to answer the question before you do. You still

got to answer it. One skip, one flip. There you go. Got it. That's it. We're breaking it up into three rounds, a few questions in each round. And we're going to go. Let's do it. First three cards. One, two or three. Middle. Middle. Two. That was quick. You were feeling that. Is there a place that feels like home, even though you haven't lived there? Hmm. And is it a place that I would have visited it before? I don't know. Yes, a space shuttle for one. Tell me why.

So it's like home. I could get used to it, just like the four walls, as long as I have a few activities. I'll be all right. I just think about it all the time. Do you? Come on. A space shuttle for one. Yeah, that would be great. Oh, there's not even any other astronauts on the space shuttle? No. No, just me. For one.

Do you want to be going somewhere or do you want to just float around in space for... Just as long as they don't open that dough. I'm fine. We can float, we can do whatever. We can roll, swim, you know, sail. So do you like being alone? Yes. Were you blessed with that coming out of the womb or did you learn how to be alone?

I think I was blessed with it. I'll say because I've always really enjoyed it. Was your mom okay with that or was she like Erica? Oh, yeah. I had friends for sure, lots of them, but I still really enjoyed mostly being alone and going home and getting under the dining room table after school and there was this long cloth over it. I had all my shit under there, you know, color books and crayons and snacks and, yeah. I just liked it.

I was always making something or building something. That was a secret. Yeah. Yeah. Was music part of that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, music was the background of everything in my life.

It was the undertone. It was the hum of my universe as a child. There was a radio that was always on in the bathroom. A small radio. Was there a channel? It was K-104 FM radio. It was R-E-R-E. R&B radio.

Yeah. And songs, you know. Yeah. Because they played them eight times a day. That's right. We were kind of programmed. Yeah. No those songs.

But music was always the undertone. My uncle had a great record collection and my mother had a great record collection. So music was like a central force for us. Yeah. Okay. We're moving on. Move on. Move on.

Three more. One, two, three. Three. Three. What's something someone told you that changed your trajectory? One of my boyfriends told me. Erica, me and are attracted to other women. I'm always going to be attracted to other women.

I was like, what? What? It just changed everything. It ruined everything for me. I had to be about 23 years old. And he just, like, I mean. I heard my feelings real bad. I just didn't want to hear that.

I wanted to believe I was the center of his world, you know. And I learned at that point also simultaneously that the world didn't revolve around me. Yeah. Did you think that it did to some degree? Yes, absolutely I did. Yeah, because up to that point, I got everything I wanted. You know, there was no reason for my parents not to give me what I wanted. I did whatever they needed.

Yeah. It was an equal exchange of appreciation and respect. And getting out in the world, meeting other people, you meet these other personalities, and that day I realized, so you mean that I'm not God's favorite? The world is not a private joke between me and God. This is impossible.

I can imagine that being a kind of grief, the way you said it. Like, I'm not God's favorite child. There would be a sadness attached to that. It was kind of sad, but then it took me off the hook a little. Oh, right. Yeah. Gave you more permission to mess up?

Because God's daughter can't be doing certain things, you know. Well, that's true. It's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure. So a little bit I was like, whoo. Yeah. Okay, we're going to take a break from the game for just a minute. Okay.

Because I want to talk about what's going on in your work life. Okay. Yeah. Because you've got a lot going on. I do. You've got this movie coming to Netflix, November 22nd. It's called The Piano Lesson. That is true.

Congratulations. Thank you so much. Malcolm Washington gave me a call. Denzel's, one of his sons, very talented filmmaker, and wanted me to do some music for it. And ended up writing me into it to sing in the club. A little bits and parts. So I have a tiny part.

But I was able to compose three pieces with my dear friend Daniel Jones for the movie. And, yeah, I got a little cameo as a perk. Are you writing music right now? I am all the time. Are you? Mm-hmm. I just wrote a song about you. No, you didn't.

I did. Well, now, can you share it with me? Rachel sitting around with a red shirt. She got a jacket on, and I made feelings hurt. because I told her take it off and she didn't want to. Because she thinks it's real fresh. She thinks she's real cool. I said I didn't want to dream of in with me.

So I gotta keep the jacket on. That's the tea. Wow. Yeah. I'm really talented. And it's always been like this. It's not me. It's God.

Does that happen to you all the time? Like you're walking down the street, you see a person, it's something moves through you, you feel the song, you got to get it out. Yeah, it does happen all the time, seriously. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yeah, I believe you. Mm-hmm. I can hear music and everything.

Shoes in the dryer, you know, making this drumbeat. Uh-huh. Woodpecker. People chopping onions. You know, I always hear something and everything. You have a busy mind. That sounds like a busy mind. Very, very, very busy mind.

Yeah. Yes. Is that comfortable? Do you have ways to shut it up? Yeah. Meditation is useful. Yeah. Breathing is useful.

Yeah. Marijuana. Yeah. There's a lot of people who want me to ask you if you have any plans for an album. I do. Yes. I do have a few. Yeah?

Yeah. I'm working on that now. I can't really give you any details yet. No, that's okay. Hasn't been born. Yeah. Pregnant. Yeah.

New music right now. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm going to leave it there. Three more. One, two, three. Three. Three.

Is there anything you long for? Yes. I want to get my best work out of me because it's still in me. And I feel it. And something in me can't let it go yet. I long for that moment that I'm able to let that go and give it to the way. and give it to the world. So you don't feel that you've reached that apex yet, huh?

No. Not at all. You strike me as the kind of person who, even if you put out this album, are you going to be satisfied? And it could be amazing. I'd be satisfied with the album, yes. Each album is like a kid, you know. It's like, you know, it goes through this whole birthing process.

and this whole gestation process and growing. So you don't never want to let it go, really. So each album is very, very special. But I just, as an artist, don't think I've gotten to a place where this best work is it. I just want to do more every time. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate what I have. Yeah.

But I don't want to do more. I want to contribute more. Yeah. But it's reachable. It's not an unreachable thing. It's a reachable thing. Perhaps. We'll see.

Ah. But see if I say it's reachable. I have to believe that it's not reachable. And I'm the only one that can reach you. All right, you have a skip and you have a flip if any of these you're not feeling. Okay. Okay. Three more cards.

One, two, three. Two. Two. Has ambition ever led you astray? No, never. Because I don't consider being led astray a mistake. I consider it being a part of whatever lesson you have to learn. Yeah.

I don't think that mistakes can be discounted as blessings. Yeah. Oh, discounted as not being blessings. Yeah, I understand what you mean. I'll give you an example. Around COVID, I lost both of my grandmothers, and they were in their 90s. And they were the thing that kind of tethered me to the earth. Yeah.

And I was a little sad about it, grieving. and trying to grow, and I wanted to, I don't know, you grow a lot when you lose things. When you go through pain, it's kind of the only way that you really get things cemented into you. And I went through that and I came out of that and my next request was, I really want to practice kindness. I want to embody the kindness of those women, you know. And the next day I went to the airport, my luggage was not put on the plane. It was left on the tarmac. The lady at the front, you know, was not giving me special treatment.

She didn't care who you were. No, yeah. And it's important. Side note, sidebar. We need special treatment sometime because we work so hard to entertain everyone that you're coming offstage and you're going to the next place. So that first class seat is what helps me rest between, you know, doing what I do. But anyhow, fuck y'all. That's what I'm trying to say.

That's what I meant. No, no, Erica. We were starting with you, you were going to be kinder. I know. I'm being kind now to myself. You see that? Oh, I get you. Okay, so I said I wanted to be kinder, and I went to the airport and my luggage was left on the tarmac.

The ticket encounter, they was being funny. It was just tiresome. And of course, I got on the plane and I was sitting there and I was going to cry. Then I thought, aha, the universe said practice on this. You want to practice, kind of practice on this. Yeah. But after that, I did see that being an opportunity. Yeah.

Yeah. Three more. One, two, or three? Give me two again. What emotion do you understand? understand better than all the others? The emotion I understand more than all the others is authenticity. Yeah, there's a feeling when you're being authentic.

You feel it and everyone else feels it and it becomes a magnet to everything you can desire because you're being you. That means that everything your body is functioning at peace, at rest, your breath, your heart rate. you began to attract the things and people naturally because everything is in order. It's a divine order. When you being yourself, that means thinking your thoughts and using your brain and your idea, boundaries, concepts, vision, belief, unwavering faith in yourself. That's the greatest emotion. I do think that's what people respond to about you.

I think that's what draws people to you in your art. That's what I heard. Yeah, rumor hasn't. But like, is that, again, is that a thing you just were? Did your mother model that for you? Yes. Ah. Yes.

She told me I was the best. That's different. Which made me believe that I was okay. I was enough. Oh. You're the best. That means you more than enough. Yeah.

I said, well, what about when I don't win? So you let somebody else win. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, yeah, she did that. She did that. Very powerful. Is your mom still around?

Absolutely. Ah. Yeah. She's my fashion icon. Mm-hmm. Truly? She did good style? Oh, my God.

Yeah. She was in high school. They used to call her Twiggy. Because she died her hair blonde. She had that little pixie cut? She had the pixie cut. She was really skinny and she's just a cute girl. We're in the last round already.

Red. It's so, I don't know. Hoare red, let's see. Do you think it's horror? Does that, if it was what, that what it evokes in you? Yes, because my grandmother wouldn't let us wear red polish or red lipstick or red underwear because they only... The devil? No.

My grandma says it's the devil. Hors. Even worse than the devil, horse, because horse steal your husband. Good Lord. That's worse than the devil. You see what I'm saying? The devil don't do nothing to scare you and shit. Hors still your husband.

Wow. He doesn't have anything to do with it. It's the women. Yes, according to my grandma. See, red polish was the only color they made in her day when she was a girl. Yeah. It was red, polished lipstick, and only women of the evening were that. Women of the night, yes.

Women of the night. Uh-huh. Right. So she didn't let us wear that, so pull up the horror cards. Let's see. I'm going to need. Okay, so this is number two. I want that hole in the middle.

Oh, God. Yes. Okay. What's a belief you had to let go of? A belief I had to let go off. Besides believing that the world revolved around me. Yeah. I believe I had let go of is see.

You want me to go first? Yeah, you go first. Okay. So flipping it. A belief I had to let go of. That there was one way to live a good life. And that it was divined by certain theology. I grew up in a really religious home.

Yes. Very religious parents. dad was the volunteer pastor at the church. And so it's, you know, you can imagine where this is going. It was just, there was one way to be a good person and one way to see the world. And it was a right or wrong. It was a binary. So, you know, I was.

It was a one-life-fits-all kind of concept. I understand that. And so I was, you know, I was in. my early 20s when I started interrogating that. And my own religion and spiritual life has ebbed and flowed over a long time, a lifetime. But that is a belief that I let go of was that there was one way to believe, that there was one way to be. Or have a good life. Or have a good life.

Yeah, one way to have a good life. A good life. Yeah. There's one way. That's good. Did that buy you time? Yeah, it brought me a long time, thanks. Yeah, you bet.

Okay. A belief I had to let go of is I have to entertain the thoughts that come to my mind. I had to let go of that belief because I learned that I didn't have to. I learned that I could change the thought because I experienced that. some thoughts lead to anxiety for me. And I didn't want it. So I had to be like, wait a minute, I don't have to live in this room. I don't have to be thinking this.

This is not even here. Yeah. So once I no longer believe that I had to entertain the thoughts that were in my mind, I could get out my mind and be out here with you. And my kids and people. When did you have that realization? Is that a recent thing? Let me see.

Out my mind just in time. 2010. I wrote the song. I did. I wrote a song about it. If you want to know anything about me. If I want my children to know who I am, give them my albums. Yeah.

So, yes, it was very important. I wrote it. And when I write it down, it is. Yeah. It is so. Three more cards. Okay. Three more cards.

One, two, three. I want whore one. We can say that about these cards. It's wild. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Well, I know the answer to this question. No, you don't.

Okay. You're right. Do you think there's more to reality than we can see or touch? No. See, you thought you knew an answer. Okay. Do I think there's more to reality than we can see or touch? Absolutely.

Absolutely. I know. I said it in the introduction, but you work as a doula. You also sit with people who are at the end of their life. And in those spaces, it's hard to deny that there is. is more to life to reality than we can see your touch because there's an energy there. We can't see your touch when life moves in and out of the world. Yes.

I mean, I don't know and I don't have to know to want to be the welcoming committee as a doula. You know, where they're coming from. I just know I want to make sure that from what I've learned since I've been here, I just want to feel like your guide around the house. high school and I'm a junior and you're a freshman, you know, and this is what I know about the school. It's what I want to share. As a dula, specifically, I'm the welcoming committee. I want to make sure that when you come to this place, the room is prepared for you. Because I believe if you have a start with easy breath and love and things you can smell that are beautiful and music

You can hear that's beautiful and your parents united. And even though they have problems, they're taking this day to come together for this most important ceremony, the day you came into this world. That's important to me as a doula. And my contract is really with the baby, the unborn baby. That's my friend. And I keep in touch with them as they grow. So if you're the welcome committee for the baby, when you sit with people who are at the end of their life. I'm the ushering committee.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not going to profess that I know where they're going. Or by what kind of pathway or portal or vorticity. I just want them to have the same experience going out. Easy breath. Yeah. Easy heart, right?

I've left this realm or this place with something sweet to smell or to taste or to hear with love and relaxed and I suggest that there should be no fear let's get to a point of no fear because you're going to know something that we don't know

but I believe that you're going to need your easy breath we end the show the same way every time it's a trip in our memory time machine Okay. You go back to a moment from your past, you would not change anything about. You would just like to linger there a little longer. What moment do you choose? 15 minutes ago, when we were talking about something, we had some kind of really quiet connection that was really, really special.

It was a feeling in my heart. I don't know if this guy and the producer in here felt it too, but there's just some energy. I would, it's going to last me for the rest of the day. It filled me up today. Thank you. I appreciate that. Me too.

It was a pleasure. A pleasure doesn't even seem like the right word, but I did enjoy our time. Me too. I appreciate you being here for it. Me too, sis. I appreciate you tolerating my weird sense of humor. You can see and hear Erica in the new Netflix movie The Piano Lesson. It is out November 22nd.

Yes. Erica Badu, thank you so much. Thank you, sis. Peace to you. Yeah, and to you. If you like this episode, you should listen to my conversation with David Lynch. He is another person who seems to exist on a different plane of existence. It was a weird and wild experience talking with him. Check it out.

Next week on Wildcard, I talked to actor Jim. Jimmy O. Yang about the infinite universe. Anything infinite is scary. I look out the ocean at night. I get a little scary. It seems so vast and infinite. This episode was produced by Cher Vincent and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Robert Rodriguez.

Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romteen Arablewee. Reach out to us, why don't you? At Wildcard at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.