Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Father James Martin is okay with not being liked

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Father James Martin has become one of the most well-known Catholic priests in the U.S, in part due to his appearances on "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert." He's hosting a new podcast called "The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin." He talks to Rachel about giving up his need to be liked and his rebellious adolescence. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

What's a belief you chose to let go of? Oh my gosh. That God was a transactional God. That you do something and that by doing it, you will, in a sense, force God to do this. So I had to let go of that idea of the transactional God versus God who's kind of in relationship with us. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard,

the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is author and podcaster, Father James Martin. I mean, I'm a Jesuit priest. I feel like I've found the purpose of my life.

I still feel the sense of, oh, you know, I need more. You all out there who listen to Wildcard a lot will know that this show has been a place where I've gotten to work through a lot of my own questions about religion and faith and spirituality, all of the above. But it comes in through the side door. mostly. Today, we're doing something a little different. No side door spirituality. We are going right through the front with Father James Martin. He is arguably one of the most famous Catholic

priests in the country, thanks to his many appearances with Stephen Colbert. Now he's the host of a new podcast called The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin, and I am so happy to welcome him to Wildcard. Hi, Father Jim. Hi, happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. We're going to start with memories. Ready? Let's go. First three cards for Father Jim. One, two, or three? One. One. What was your form of rebelling as a teenager? Dish it, Father Jim. That's an easy one. Oh, really? Well, yes. So I hope to say to people, I wasn't always a Jesuit priest, right? That's very important to remember. the womb that way.

As a Jesuit priest. So, yeah, I, probably the first time I've ever admitted to this, smoking a lot of pot and getting drunk a lot during college. There you go. So that was pretty rebellious. And my parents were not particularly happy about that, but I didn't really let them know. You were good at deceit also, apparently. I was good at brushing my teeth after I smoked pot.

So, yeah, that was kind of rebellious. Who were these hooligans you were hanging out with? Who was your crowd in high school? Well, actually, it didn't come until college, really. In high school, I was a bit of a square. But then in college, I fell in with a group at Penn, wonderful young people. I'm still friendly with.

And one of the things that was surprising was, you know, when I was growing up, I was told that anybody who smoked potter drank with these kind of waste cases and stay away. And here were these very well-educated, very thoughtful, very articulate guys and women who, you know, smoked pot, you know, every week and got drunk a lot. And so I fell in with them and then we're still friends. I think a certain amount of rebellion is probably an order for anybody at that time of their life. Yeah.

So not stuff I do any longer, but. Okay. Yeah, for the record. Thanks for clarifying. Sure. Were your parents super religious? Were they into the church? No.

My parents were both Catholic. And my mom's still alive. She's still Catholic. course. But we weren't the kind of family that, you know, said grace at meals every night and said the rosary together and went to daily Mass. And I didn't go to Catholic schools. So that when I entered the Jesuits, it was kind of a shock and they were not happy. So we were Catholic. I would say, I call them sometimes lukewarm Catholic. So, you know, good people and moral, but not really into all the churchy stuff. So it was a big shock when I decided to join the Jesuits.

I mean, I have so many questions about that moment. I mean, it might come up in the car. but I'm sort of just going to ask it now. Yeah, sure. So what was the provocation? Like, were you exploring spirituality after college? How did you decide you were going to dedicate your life to God in this way? Yeah, well, I went to Penn, as I said, and I was an undergraduate at Wharton, and I got a job at GE, formerly great company in New York,

and was very happy as a young executive and worked there for about six years and started to get bored and thinking, you know, what is this all about and what am I doing with my life? Business is a real vocation for a lot of people, but it didn't seem to fit me. And I didn't know what to do because I thought I studied business. What am I going to do, right? When am I going to, like, you know, like join the opera or, you know, try out for the Phillies or something? And one night I came home and turned on the TV and saw a documentary about Thomas Merton, the Trappist Monk. And I just was captivated by it. It was fascinating.

And I started to read about Thomas Merton and the monastery. And I just thought this just seemed really romantic and beautiful. And I went to my local parish priest. I was living in Connecticut at the time. And I said, you know, I think I'm interested in the priesthood. So really, I always say a TV show kind of changed my life. So it was the fact that his life in the monastery seemed more beautiful and more purposeful and more interesting.

than my life at GE. So I, yeah, I took the plunge and, yeah, never looked back. I'm sure, I mean, it's one thing to romanticize a life as being more fascinating and compelling than your current. It's another to walk that life, which you have now. And, I mean, has the romantic quality of it all dissolved into just like the quotidian nature of doing the work and being a Jesuit priest? or does it still hold that kind of romance for you? Yeah, I would compare it to like a marriage, right? I mean, you get married and you kind of get to know the person, you think, oh, they're not perfect.

But there is the romance, you know, that continues in some way. Thomas Merton said the first and most elemental test of anyone's religious vocation, whether you're a Jesuit, a Carthusian, a Trappist, or a Franciscan, is the recognition that everyone in your community is more or less imperfect. And so I think that's part of it, that I'm imperfect. And the guys I live with and the guys I'm friends with are imperfect. But it works for me. And there are times when I do feel that romance, right?

When I do feel if I'm celebrating mass or with someone in a spiritual moment or, you know, I was able to participate in covering the conclave a couple of weeks ago and watching Pope Leo walk out on the balcony, someone who I knew slightly. I mean, that was really exciting. And to be kind of in the midst of that was really great. And I wouldn't have been able to do any of that if I were in a job. Jesuit. So, yeah, a lot of the romance is still there. Okay. Thank you for that. You're welcome. We're going to the next three. Okay. One, two, or three? I'll pick two.

Two. What's a moment with a stranger that made you feel loved? Oh, my gosh. These are great questions. Did you write these? Did you write these? Yeah, with my team. This are great. So because I'm an author and I do stuff in the media from time to time, I have people come up to me and tell me what my work is meant to them. And in the past couple of years, I've done a lot of work with LGBTQ Catholics. Helped to start a group called Outreach. And, yeah, I was at a retreat recently for LGBTQ Catholics. And I'll try to keep this confidential. But, you know, a mother came up and said, you know, thanks to your work, my daughter,

feels at home in the church. So that made me feel really loved and really grateful for the kind of work that I'm able to do. You've gotten some grief from some corners for your work with LGBTQ Catholics. That's an understatement if there ever was one. Yeah. It must have been hard, though, to hear from fellow Catholics who took issue with a cause that was very dear to you and that you'd spent a lot of your life working on. Yeah, but not too surprising, you know, I would say. There's still a lot of homophobia in the world, of course, and particularly in, you know, places like sub-Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe,

and there's still homophobia in the United States, and there's still homophobia in the church. I think what was surprising was how personal it got. You know, you're a false priest, you're an apostate, you're a heretic, your death threats and protests. We had protests a couple of weeks ago. We had a retreat for LGBTQ Catholics outside of Philly. And we had people protesting.

And I thought, what are you protesting? You're protesting that LGBTQ people are praying, that they're going to Mass, and that they're experiencing God in their life. So, you know, there's a lot of hatred out there. But I also see it as kind of part of the ministry, right? Our model in all this, I'm not comparing myself to him, but our model in all this is Jesus. Jesus obviously faced a lot of pushback, and he promised his followers that they would face pushback too. Yeah. Okay.

Last one in this round. One, two, or three. Three. Three. Ah. Were you intimidated or excited about leaving your parents' house? Oh, my gosh. What a question.

I will ask you that. What about you? Oh, flippity-do. Oh. Oh, I love, I've lost both my parents have passed, but I really was good friends with them. So this is not an indictment of their company, but I was like so ready to go. I was really ready to leave. I remember after college, I even went to Japan.

I taught English there for a couple of years. Wow. But then when I came back, I have this image of leaving my parents' house and moving to San Francisco and I had this big red Jeep Cherokee and it was jam packed with all my belongings and my parents, it really was like something out of a movie. My parents were in the street

and I was driving and I was looking at my dad in the rear view mirror and I was like Baba! I love you! I'm leaving. No, I was excited to go to college. That was exciting for me and it was so it was 19, what, 78

and it was just kind of thrilling. And this is before social media and kind of knowing what to expect, really, right? I mean, I visited the campus once or twice, so it was sort of a tabular rasa. But like you, I think the big move for me was when I left college and moved to New York, which was also like a movie. I really, I room with a good friend of mine, my friend Rob, a roommate from Penn, and we got this apartment on 71st Street. And my first day of work at GE, I swear this is true, it sounds like something out of a movie. I went to the newsstand. I said, you know, not being from New York, I said, I'll have a copy of the New York Times.

And the guy goes, kid, you're in New York. It's just the Times. And I thought, oh, my gosh. I feel like I'm in a movie. So, yeah, New York and the 80s was tons of fun. Yeah. Loved it. Okay, so before we start round two, I want to talk more about your new show.

It is called The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin. Who do you want your audience to be for this? Honestly, I want it to be everybody. Yeah. So I wrote a book a couple years ago called Learning to Pray a Guide for Everyone, because I think everybody, you know, has a natural, I believe everyone has a natural desire for God. And the point of the show called The Spiritual Life is that it talks to people about their experiences of God in their daily life and in their prayer. And, you know, so far it's been people that are pretty well known, Stephen Colbert, Whoopi Goldberg, Pete Buttigieg.

But we're also going to have people that aren't as well known but are really good spiritual practitioners, right? That might be good spiritual directors or spiritual writers that might not be on everybody's radar. One of the reasons I started it or we started it was that, you know, I think a lot of what passes for spirituality online and in the media and, you know, just everywhere is pretty shallow. Like, hey, I'm Catholic and I do my rosary and the end. I check the box and that's that. Or I go to mass every day. Right. And okay, well, let's talk about, you know, your experiences of God and what happens when, you know, it feels like God isn't showing up, right?

Are things that are going wrong, right? What does it mean to suffer? And where is God in that? And can you still believe in a God you don't understand? And what's your prayer like? And what does it mean to live a spiritual life, you know, and in a complicated world? And so we give our guests, you know, for about an hour, the opportunity to talk about that. So I've been really happy with it so far.

And it's, you know, I've been doing spiritual direction, which is listening to people talk about God in their daily lives and their prayer for like 30 years. So this is kind of a comfortable way of sort of encountering people, if that makes sense. You know, I'm used to having those conversations. And it's been great. It's been a lot of fun. So how do you end up being like the priest who's the bridge between the Vatican and American standards? up comedy. Oh, you mean the Colbert stuff?

Well, the Colbert stuff. You've been on Colbert so many times. But then you were part of the effort to bring all these American stand-ups to the Vatican to meet Pope Francis in an audience. And I mean, besides just, oh, I've got Stephen Colbert's a number on my phone and I can make some calls, you clearly see like a benefit, a collective benefit to marrying these two these two institutions, stand-up comedy and faith? Yeah, the old definition of a Jesuit is that the Jesuit explains the church to the world and the world to the church, which I like. So there's that kind of connection and that bridging.

And lots of Jesuits do that, you know, not just me. That story about the audience is actually pretty funny, the papal audience. Can I tell you the story? Please. I'll try to make it short. I got a call from two friends of mine in the Vatican, and they said, hey, Pope Francis wants to meet with comedians in like two months. And so we want you to help us arrange for the American ones.

And I was like, okay. So they said, here's our list of comedians. And there's this huge long list. And some of them I didn't know. So I went to my friends at American Media where I work. And I said, like, let's give me a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Because some of these people I don't know. And we have a pretty young staff.

And they were like, oh, that one I don't know. So I came up with a list. And then I reached out to Stephen Colbert and Jim Gaffigan, who I both know. and they sort of edited their list. So we sent out these, thanks to Stephen Colbert's Booker, we sent out these invitations, and I immediately got these emails from people, like Conan O'Brien saying, is this for real?

I was like, you know, this is in fact for real. Everyone said yes. We had about 15 people from the United States. It was wonderful. And I was a little sort of not suspicious, but kind of curious how it would work out, if we would look kind of cheesy. But Pope Francis gave this beautiful talk

on humor. And basically his point was, you know, laughter helps people, right? And your vocation is an important vocation. So it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, being with these comedians, you know, some of whom I didn't know, they're pretty funny. They're funny and they're pretty deep people. Yes. And smart. Their ability to deconstruct human behavior and the observations that they can make, there's something about that that seems Jesuit to me, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we were afterwards, and Stephen Colbert, I think, was doing a little documentary on this. Afterwards, there was a lunch. I think I can say this.

This is not telling tales out of school. And he said, well, what does everybody think about the intersection now between faith and comedy? And Julie Louis Dreyfus, by the way, who's lovely and funny, of course, said, well, what I want to know is what's up with those Swiss guards uniforms? And I said, what do you mean? And she goes, well, they look ridiculous. Who designed them? And I said, well, Michelangelo. And she goes, well, he may have known a lot about sculpture, but it isn't no much about clothes because those people look like clowns.

And I just thought it was fantastic. So I will ask you one big question, though, about the church. Because you said, you know, you've met or in passing Pope Leo? I mean, he's American. Yeah, I spent time with him during the synod. We were at the same table for two weeks, yeah. I know you've only spent a brief amount of time with him, but what's your assessment of Publio? I think he's great.

As I said, I was at his table. It was a funny story after the election. I said, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. He was at my table at the synod. And someone said, you know, you were at his table at the Senate. I'll tell you, after I was helping out ABC during the conclave, And when he came out, I was very moved. And after we were finished our broadcast, I cried because I was really grateful.

That's how good I think he is. I think they made a great choice under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He's very smart. He's been all over the world, you know, visiting people as the Augustinian Prior General. He worked in a very poor diocese, Chi-Claio in Peru, right? So, I mean, a really poor diocese. So he knows the struggles of people in the Marius. margins. And he's kind of the perfect candidate. Now, is he the perfect person? No, no one's perfect,

right? Will he do things that people find difficult or hard to accept? Probably. But I think he's great. I was really grateful that they chose him. And I think so far he's done a great job. You know, his first words were peace to you, which I thought was lovely. Father Jim, you know you got to get him on your show. I'll try. Is the request in? I feel like you should be. Put it in right now. Not yet. You ready to get back in the game? Ooh, the blue cards.

Blue cards. Blue cards. What? Insights. Okay. Insights. Oh, my gosh. The pressure's on.

I don't know. I don't know why I did my eyes like that. I didn't mean to make it. Is it my insights or someone else's insights? It's your insights. Your insights into your own life. Oh, gosh. Okay.

Well. One, two, or three. One. What are you like when no one is around? Um, yeah. maybe quieter than people would think. I think I entered the Jesuits as an extrovert. On the Myers-Briggs side was an ENFP,

which is a real kind of extrovert, storyteller. The more I'm a Jesuit, the more I treasure my quiet time, my time in prayer, my time reading, my time being alone. That's kind of new for me. So I think a little quieter than most people would think. I like to write. I like to read. I like to be quiet.

I'm still an extrovert, but with an introvert side that is developing. I think you were talking about Thomas Merton and how he used to write and think a lot about the self, about your identity, about who you are when no one's looking, about what is the essentialness of you. and without the definition of other, you know? Yeah, he had this idea of the true self and the false self. And the false self is the self that we want to present to the world or that we feel that we have to present to the world. He talked about it as if being clothed in different, like, bandages. And what does that mean?

Well, I was in college, you know, what did I want? I wanted everyone to think I was cool, basically. Like I had it all together and everyone wants that, right? You're cool. You're smart. You're on top of things. And the key is to let your true self be known and be known by yourself as well. And to have that public self be your true self. What is your true self? It's the self you are before God. Right? We're always on a journey. But it's not being embarrassed about who you are and not trying to get people to like you. I think the biggest move in my life towards freedom has been the, the letting go of the need for people to love, like, or approve of me. And I think in terms of my LGBTQ ministry, you know, I really had to let go of that because so many people were opposing me and still do, right? And I'll share something with you. Oh, please.

Yeah, I was on retreat once. This is very spiritual. And I was meditating over the gospel story where Jesus is rejected by the people in Nazareth. So in the Gospels, he stands up in the synagogue in Nazareth and says, basically he's the Messiah, and they chase him out of the synagogue and try to kill him. They try to push him off the cliff. And I remember being in a retreat setting. I was on my annual retreat, and I was thinking about it from Jesus's point of view. And I thought, well, how are you able to do that? How could you, you knew you grew up in Nazareth. It's a small town of 200 to 300 people. You knew if you stood up and said you're the Messiah, what people's response is going to be. I mean, you know. And I said to him in my prayer, and I said to him in

my prayer, in this kind of meditation, how were you able to do that? You know, because I could never do something like that. And, I mean, not that I'm the Messiah, but I could never do something that would sort of knowingly cause people to turn against me. And the words I heard in prayer, not orally, but the words that kind of came to me were Jesus saying to me, must everyone like you? How do you feel having surrendered that? You said you felt free? Yeah, it's freer. So when I get protests or death threats, I mean, it bothers me, obviously. But it doesn't paralyze me, right?

Because you get death threats, Father Tam. Oh, yeah. I also get what I call Catholic death threats, which is, I hope you die so you can go to hell and, you know, find out how wrong you are. So not exactly a death threat. But I get real death threats, too. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it just goes with the territory. But again, you know, Jesus promised us this.

He said, you know, you're going to face opposition. And so why would I not expect this? But I think the letting go of the need to be loved like you're approved of has been very freeing for me. That is a good one for all of us to be reminded of. Thanks. Yeah. Three more cards, one, two, three. I'm going to go crazy and go for three.

You are crazy. I know. It's insane. Oh, this one is the same. How much do you rely on the validation of others? Oh, okay. Well, there we go. Well, I'll ask you, I'll flip that to you.

How about you? There's an important question. Oh, come on. Sorry. But then you still have to answer it. The flip doesn't work that way. Here's what will happen. I will answer this for you.

You've already answered it, and then we'll pick another one here. Okay, good. Too much is my answer. How much do you rely on the validation of others? far too much than I should. I mean, I'm also, I'm in this strange job where I need people to like what I made. Sure. Yeah. And as a result, the thing, what the show is is very personal. It's a really personal project. And so it's hard to detach that from, if someone doesn't like the show, well, do they not like who I am? Right. And so these are mushed in and woven together. in a new way for me, my job and myself. But I mean, a lot of it does come with age. I don't suffer

nearly that anxiety of needing to have approval of people in my regular world that I did when I was younger. And I didn't fall in love until later in my adult life. And so there were all kinds of issues about, oh, what is there something wrong with me? have I just not found the right person or is there something unlovable about me and what I'm projecting? So, oh, yeah, I got all kinds of validation issues, Father Jim. But I will say that I am much better about that than I ever have been. It's just this show now is tamped up ever so slightly and I'm trying to get tampa back down. Well, no, thanks for being honest.

I mean, I think that the, you know, the fact that you have. to do that professionally is tough because I find that, like, as an author, you have to promote your books, right? And it's about, you know, getting people to buy them and getting people to, in your case, getting people to listen to the show. And, yeah, I think the key is to not let that in, right, to not let it affect how you see yourself, right, to sort of have that distance professionally and personally. Yeah. But it is, it is something, I mean, I find more and more, as you were saying, that more and more my friends say, you know, as I get older, I don't care, you know, I am who I am. So you have to answer another one of these. Okay. So, oh, okay, well, this is the one in my hand.

What do you feel as if you're constantly chasing? Oh, wow. These are great questions. Well, you know, I would say, I feel like I'm being constantly chased by God, right? The Hound of heaven, as they say. And then I would also say I'm chasing or seeking the way to live my life that is the most authentic and holy and whole way of being a Jesuit and of being a priest and of being a Catholic and of being a Christian. You know, we're all imperfect, right? We all sin. So there's that kind of, it's kind of a neat word. There's that kind of chase or that kind of journey or that kind of pilgrimage. St. Augustine said, which I love, our hearts are restless until they rest in you, Lord. So we're always going to have these restless hearts.

And there's nothing wrong with that, right? I think people who can identify within themselves this feeling of incompletion, right? Like there must be more to life than this. I always say to people, that's God. That's a call from God. Our hearts are restless until they rest in you, which I think isn't that beautiful? It is beautiful. But people who feel that restlessness, it's not like God.

comes in and assuages that feeling. Not totally, but I think there is a sense of fulfillment, you know, of, you know, it's like would be like falling in love, right? People want to, most people want to fall in love and get married, right? And eventually you do find someone, you know, many people find someone and they get married and there is that sense of completion, but not total completion. Right. I mean, you talk to married couples and it's like, you know, my spouse doesn't totally fulfill

on my knees. Right? Wait. This person can't be everything to me. Everything, right? And so, you know, there's always going to be a sense of incompletion. I mean, I'm a Jesuit priest. I feel like I've found the purpose of my life. I still feel the sense of, oh, you know, I need more. And that desire really is not going to be fulfilled, I think, until we meet God face to face. But yeah, but I guess what I'm saying is that restlessness and that incompletion, what one theologian called the God-shaped whole in our life really can only be filled by God. And to pay attention to that desire, right, as something holy and not to dismiss it. I mean, I will tell you, I have had a hard time filling the God-shaped hole.

I don't know if it's God-shaped. I mean, I appreciate the sentiment, but my parents grew up in a very religious family and knew very explicitly what my spiritual inheritance was. was and tried that on for years. And then increasingly it has felt like it is, it is not, um, it just doesn't fit me. And so yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm in the in between where I, I don't, I don't want to put a hat on that says, I'm an atheist or an agnostic even. Um, but I don't feel like a Christian. And I do feel that sense of, well, I actually don't feel a sense of, is this all there is? Because there's a lot. There's so much in my life that's lovely and beautiful and sacred.

But I just can't get, I can't get from here to there to. Well, I'm going to say two things. First, yeah, again, it's not to say that the things that are in people's lives who are atheists or agnostics is not meaningful, right, or important. It's just that I think everyone, no matter who they are, no matter how fulfilling their life is, is going to say, in their quiet moments, you know, is this all there is in my life, right? Is this the meaning of life? Is there something more? Is there something after my life? What happens when we die?

Those kinds of questions. Well, I am fixed with those questions. Yeah. Well, and the other thing is, you know, it sounds like, you know, you're in this kind of liminal space. you're in this journey. And that's, I think, oftentimes when God speaks the most bluntly to people and loudly to people, when our defenses are down. You know, a lot of people, if they're going through a struggling, a time of struggle, someone's, you know, they're like terminal illness or they have an illness or someone dies and their family or some disaster. And they experience God.

People sometimes, I'm not saying you're saying this. People say, oh, you know, you're just saying this. because you're, you know, looking for something. But I think what happens is when our defenses are down and when we are more vulnerable, God is more easily able to break in. Yeah. Sorry, I go into spiritual direction. I know you can't help it, but I'm also open to it, so it's fine.

Okay. Thanks. Thanks. And paying attention is a lovely kind of, I mean, that's what prayer is. Yeah, noticing. Noticing. Yeah. Noticing.

In that line from Lady Bird, did you see that movie? Lady Bird? Where Circey Ronan goes into the nun played by Lois Smith and the nun says something like

oh I think you love our town because you took all these pretty pictures and she said no I was just paying attention and she said

well isn't that what love is I thought was really sweet so it's like it's like prayer round three this is the beliefs round I feel like you're going to knock it out of the park

I would hope though do you believe in God yes next question next one two or three these are fun one one one what's a belief you chose to let go of oh my gosh um hmm that god was a transactional god ah in other words you believe that at some point i think so i think every christian at some point believes that that maybe you pray for something and you expect no that you do something and that by doing it you will in a

sense force God to do this. If I do X, Y, Z, then God will almost have to do A, B, C. If I say three rosaries, God's going to heal my father from whatever. And God, live up to your bargain. Now, I think it's, it makes sense, and I think it's natural to pray for what you want and pray for good things, right? I mean, they are fathers a prayer petition. But I think that that transactional model, which I think... Isn't that part of the basis of the Catholic Church? Well, I mean, I think you ask for things, but God has freedom, right? I think what it leads to in the extreme version is, and I'm going to be clear, I ask for things all the time in prayer. Yeah.

But the fact that you could sort of push these buttons and make God do something, that leads to the prosperity gospel. All right. So if I do these things, right, I will be financially and socially and even physically successful, right? and look at people who have not done those things. They clearly don't believe in God and haven't done the right prayers. That's what I mean by that. So I had to let go of that idea of the transactional God versus God who's kind of in relationship with us. Right?

So, yeah, and I think that's a really deeply held belief by a lot of people, even though they might not express it that way. I remember when my mom was ill, she was dying of cancer. And I was just flipping through channels back when we did that. and an evangelical televangelist, who I shall not name, was on preaching the prosperity gospel and was talking about people who could overcome grave illness if they just prayed enough. And my mother was a devout woman. Right. And the insinuation that she was going to die, and it was because she wasn't praying hard enough to prevent that, just like,

cut me to my core. Yeah, it's monstrous. It's a monstrous belief, and it makes people feel like they've done something wrong if they're suffering. And I always point to a couple things. If you're Catholic, look at someone like St. John Paul II. He suffered from Parkinson's disease. Did he somehow pray wrong? I mean, or Mother Teresa, right? St. Teresa of Galka was suffering at the end of her life. No, I mean, even Jesus, there's a, I think it's in John chapter 9, the man born blind. And they ask him, which I think is great, who sinned, that's the sinned, that's the this man was born blind. And he says, no one sinned. And so, yeah, and I think that current day belief can sort of tempt us to this idea of the transactional God. Right. And it's something to

really be avoided. I had to let go of that, really, early on. Last one. I love these questions. I'm so glad. Yeah, they're great. Thank you. One, two, or three. Three. What does it mean to live a good life? Oh, that's a great question. It means to love. The end. Basically it. Basically, love, believe in God for me.

That's a good question. I think it depends on different people. But I would say to love to be charitable, to give to people who are less fortunate than you are. That's a specific kind of love. It is. Yeah, it's a self-sacrificing love. But, you know, I think for the Christian, what it means to live a good life is to follow what Jesus did.

And not just in words, but in deeds. One of my favorite lines is from the Christian spiritual writer Richard Roar, who's very wonderful. And he said, which I found fascinating, that Jesus never says in the Gospels, worship me. Now, we should do that, of course. What he says is, follow me. And so the Christian is really following Jesus. But for everybody, it really just means to love. And those two things are the same.

We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. Okay. So in this memory time machine, you choose one moment from your past that you would like to go back to. It is not a moment you want to change anything about. We're not changing things. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little long. Oh, that's an easy one. Oh, what you got?

It's probably the only time that I can say that I've had anything like a mystical experience, and I go back to in prayer a lot, and I've written about it, so it's easier to go back to. I was going to school, Ridge Park Elementary School in Plymouth Meeting. It was a summer day, and I was riding my bike, my Schwinn Speedster bike. I was probably about 10 or 11. And there was a meadow in between our neighborhood and our school. and that makes it sound more grand than it was. It was filled with wildflowers and snapdragons.

And I was riding my bike, and it was a beautiful summer day, and I could see the school in the distance, and I loved school, and I sort of paused for a bit, and all around me was like so much life, butterflies and grass operas. I really, I can feel myself there. And I remember thinking that I just wanted to kind of have, this and possess it and enter into it. And it was just this feeling of just beauty and awe and wonder.

And then it was gone. And at the time, I thought it was just a moment of happiness. But I look back and I think that's probably the closest I've ever come to kind of a mystical moment. And I really believe that I go back to it in my prayer. And I'll share something I don't think I've ever shared with anybody. I sometimes hope when I die. that that's where Jesus meets me. Hmm.

So that's my memory. Father James Martin, he is the host of a new podcast that you should check out. It is called The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin. Thank you so much, Father Jim. A joy and a pleasure. Thank you. If you like this conversation, I highly recommend going back and listening to the episode we did with Lavaar Burton. Lavaar's story is similar to Father Martins, but In the opposite way, LeVar planned on being a priest from a young age.

He even went to seminary. But then he answered a different call that led him to TV stardom. It was great. I loved having that conversation, and I think you're going to love listening to it. Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sanweni, and our theme music is by Ramtin Arroblewe. If you've got thoughts on the show, we'd love to be.

to hear him, we're at wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.