Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Gael García Bernal rejects certainty

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

Gael García Bernal was basically fated to be an actor. His mom and dad were both in show business and his first starring role was in a Mexican telenovela when he was just 13. Then came iconic roles in Y tu mamá también , The Motorcycle Diaries, Coco and more. García Bernal's new show is La Máquina. He talks to Rachel about embracing mystery, being selfish in relationships and not wasting good abs. To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you found out wasn't true? Yes. Okay. It's going to sound a little bit superficial. I'll take it. Growing up in the acting, you know, in the theater world with actors, you know, I used to think actors are the most intelligent people in the planet. I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three.

Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. I realized it was just, yeah, it was a complete facade, don't it? My guest this week is actor Gail Garcia Bernal. The job of being an actor is talking about what you don't know with absolute certainty. I've had a lot of jobs in my life. I was a typist at an insurance company, an English teacher, in Japan. I drove a bar cart around a golf course. I've worked at a whitewater rafting company and an art gallery. What I'm saying is it took me more than a minute to figure out what my thing was,

you know? I'm frankly still figuring this out to some degree, and I am a grown-ass woman. Other people get this gift early in their lives. A door opens, they go through it, and that's it. They found their place, their purpose, their thing. I'm pretty sure that's what happened to Gael Garcia by now. His dad was a film director and his mom and actress, so Gail was thrust into the business really young. He starred in a Mexican soap opera when he was just 13 years old. Then came theater school in London and a role in the film Amores Peros, which was nominated for an Oscar for Best Foreign Film, and that changed everything. Next came his iconic role in Itu Mama Tambien, alongside his lifelong friend Diego Luna. There had never been a coming-of-age movie

like this one. It challenged all the norms around masculinity and sexual discovery. And in that movie, we see the beginnings of a long career for Gail Garcia and Bernal, one that would be filled with surprising magical roles that upend the audience's expectations, just like in his new limited series on Hulu called La Machina. With each new film or show, it's like he is just as hungry as he was in the early stages of his career. Acting came for him early and it stuck and we are so lucky it did. Gail Garcia Bena, welcome to Wildcard. Thank you. Thank you so much and thank you for that beautiful introduction. Thank you. Oh, I'm so, so glad to get to talk to you. I've been following your career a very long time and the show I didn't get to shout out in the intro was Mozart in the

jungle because I loved that show so much. It just, transported me and it was, it was so magic. So thank you in particular for that one. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I love that one also. Oh, so fun. So this is a game we're going to do.

I know you have a young child, right? Do you play games a lot? I have three. You have three young kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, two of them are not so young now. They're 15 and 13, but I have a little one that is three. So there's games, there are games in your life.

Oh, all the time, yeah. There's mind games. Oh, yeah, right. The mind games. We have lessons. There's everything like, yeah, yeah. That's true. That's true.

There's all kinds of different games you play as a parent. All right. Well, this is not a mind game per se. I think it'll be more enjoyable than that. So I'm going to tell you how this is going to go down. All right. I've got a deck of cards in front of me. Each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer.

I am going to hold up three at a time. And then you choose one at random. And that'll be the question that you answer, okay? Oh, perfect. Okay. You have two tools at your disposal. You get one skip. So if a question just isn't resonating with you, just skip it. And I'll pick another one from the deck at random, okay?

You get one flip as well. So you can flip the question on me and I will answer it before you do. This is useful if you just need to buy a little time for yourself. Okay, okay. I've come to learn. We're going to break it up into three rounds. and we're going to put a few questions in each round. Okay.

Excellent. You ready? Yes, absolutely. All right, let's go. First three cards. One, two, or three, Gail? Let's do the, yeah, the first one I thought of, like the one that is on my left that is on your right. Exactly that one.

Okay. I like the specificity. What's a place where you feel like the best version of yourself? Okay. Okay, okay, so like you said in your wonderful and beautiful introduction, I grew up in the theater with my parents. Like it felt like when I was a kid, theater and life were very intertwined. The stage was just a step away. So in a way, I always, you know, I felt I was, I realized when growing up a little bit that I was, that I was, I realized when growing up a little bit that I was, that I was,

I was born into something special, into a world that is very unique. And the more I grew up, the more I saw the difference. There was the outside and there was inside. There was my home and there was the world. And so I tried many times. And this might add some gray areas to what you were saying about knowing what you want in life right from the start. because there was a big moment in my adolescence that I didn't want to be an actor. I was completely, yes, and absolutely reluctant to do it because that's where I was born in a way.

That's the place that I was sort of, yeah, it was handy for me, no? So I wanted the challenge of something else and I had other curiosities with archaeology or sociology or anthropology, philosophy, I studied philosophy in the Mexican Unam, in the National Autonomous University. And so I tried my best to not become an actor. And it was impossible to escape it. For me, it isn't the acting. It isn't being on stage. Right.

It's not pretending to be other people, actually. It is the smell of the place. It is like a temple kind of thing. It is the place where I know that everything will be okay. is this moment of incredible, you know, tension and excitement before going on stage, no, before appearing. And then when you're there, everything is amazing. Everything is just incredible.

So I think I'm the best version of myself because, first of all, I don't know who I am. Ah, whoa. So I guess the best of myself kind of, not shines through, but kind of like is incredibly, that's what we see in an actor when we look at their performances. We know they are someone else. I'd never thought about it that way, though, that it can seem counterintuitive to say, I am the truest, best version of myself when I am acting. That seems like a major contradiction.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it took me a while to come to terms and also to come at peace with that because I was reluctant about that. I saw acting as something else, you know, when I was young. And I started to find like, oh, this is quite an existential journey to interpret, you know, someone and to be, and in therapeutical as well, and catartic and, and yeah, you can sublimate so many things. Right. Okay. Three more cards.

Yes. Okay, cool. One, two, three. The center one Two Yes What period of your life Do you often daydream about

Hmm Okay Oh my god That one goes deep So I daydream a lot About like my You know the moments I spent with my father He passed away

way two years ago. No, more? A little bit more. And, um... I'm sorry. And, oh, thank you. Thank you. And, uh, and I daydream a lot about, uh, those moments, those moments because, you know,

for example, I learned how to read with him. Uh, there was the, the, there were a few elements. There was the newspapers and scrabble. They were like the, those were my, my Montessori. elements to learn how to read and write. And I would like love when there was like a huge paragraph because it was like, oh, perfect. I have to read this loud. It was like I got this new technique of knowing how to do this and I would read it loud and he would,

you know, like ask me to, you know, talk to me and as a kind of like, yeah, let's read the news, you know, tell me what's happening in the world. And I would tell him, you know, like I would read the newspaper. to him and he was really, I don't know, he found it really funny, I guess. You were presenting it. You were, you know, ever the theater kid. Yeah. That's lovely.

But having that kind of like complicity with him, you know, I would think of and I would get very emotional about it or whatever. But now it became a daydream. I think the daydreams are where you, yeah, that's how you keep them alive. That's how you remember them in what you just described. A daydream is just. keeping that memory of them present, just living in that memory, and that's a lovely thing.

Yeah, wondering if it happened also, you know, the moments, those key moments, you know, those, those, like, as a kid, you know. Oh, yeah, right. Is it a real thing that happened, or is it just a story someone told you and now you've made it a memory, I know. Exactly.

But not judging it as a kind of like, you know, as thriller-esque kind of like investigation, did it really happen? Was I lied to it? No, no, no, not in that sense, but like did it happen that way? Did it happen? Yeah.

What was there? What was, you know, like, how was it? How soft was it? How elongated was it? How, I don't know. How, yeah. It's frustrating that we won't ever know the truth of that, right? Because it's a lifetime of putting layers and layers and layers on those memories.

And they get shortened or they expand. And I don't know, you sort of have to be just graceful and gracious with the whole. whole thing and just acknowledge that this is how it is stuck with you. And we won't know the truth of how it actually went down. What book was he reading to you when you learned how to read? Exactly. Exactly. Coming up, we talk about abs, butts, and the effect of time on the body. So we're going to take a little break because I want to talk about this project that you have launched with your dear friend, Diego Luna. It's a new limited series. It's called La Machina. And And you two put this project together, right?

Yes. From soup to nuts, as they say. You play this aging Mexican boxer. Diego plays his manager. They get into some financial trouble. A lot of hijinks ensue. You know, of all the projects that the two of you could work on and bring your talents to, why was this one the one?

Oh, well, it took, it was wonderful to, I mean, because you, you were saying, what was the phrase that you said from nuts? Soup to nuts. Some soup to nuts. Okay, this was from kebab to a boxing ring because we were deep in the snow in Berlin. And this is how the anecdote was for real. Like we were there, I don't know if hangover or drunk. I don't know.

Like we were on that kind of weird border. And it was really late. And so we were walking in the snow and we were at the film festival in Berlin. And it's like, oh, let's go for Koukera kebab. And I was feeling very frustrated because I was preparing for a boxing role. And I started to train boxing a lot. And I started to love it. And the film never came about.

And I was really into it. And I've always been a fan of boxing. And Diego, my friend, he had just done a documentary on Julius Cesar Chavez, who's one of the best Mexican boxer ever. and so he was really deep into the know of all the intricacies of what goes on there in the boxing world and everything. And you had all this pent-up skill and talents that you just discovered as a boxer. And these abs that were amazing and this kind of like, yeah, exactly. You're like, I can't let these go to waste.

Exactly. Let's do something now, now, now, no. So it was like, okay, there were a few elements that were right there from the beginning. It was boxing. I'm going to play the boxer, of course, because I would be very. very offended if anyone thought otherwise. If anyone thought that Diego could play the boxer, it would be like, come on, like that does not... He's a

slight guy. Yeah, he's a very slim, slight guy. He looks like a manager. He looks like a manager. So he was going to play the boxer, and we were going to tell the anti-fable of a boxer losing in order to win their freedom, in order to escape from the trap of success

as well. So we wanted to counter narrative the whole thing that exists always with boxing films or with even sports films like it's always about that it's always about the rise of the kind of like the no but this is like let's do something like this

and let's do it in of course we're going to do it in the boxing world of Mexico there was karaoke involved also because we always thought that they should like karaoke should be like their place of catarsis you know of these characters don't get me started

I think karaoke is Very underrated as a place of catharsis and community and magic. Yes. Exactly. I'm with you. Yes. So we wanted to include that as well. And then Diego was going to have a lot of prosthetics and kind of like, okay, to develop him, you know, to get him.

He's got a lot of stuff on his face. Yeah. There's a lot of things happening. And in his bot also, like in his, he's got like a very funky buck. like in his ass Oh, he has like a butt prosthesis? Yes. Oh, I didn't notice that.

I'm going to have to go back and look at his heim side. Well, I didn't know if time had not been kind to Diego over the years. Maybe that's just how he's bot looked. Exactly. It's lovely to see you two collaborating again. It's a really wonderful story. So we're going to move on. Okay.

Next round. One, two, or three. Three. Three. Yes. What have you found surprising about getting older? Surprising is that something similar that happens with La Machina, with the character that I play in the series,

is that now I know how to do things better, but my body is not responding as it used to, you know. So, for example, with football, I play a lot of football, and I just gave up because now it hurts. Oh, no. And it hurts and I get hurt. But I think I play better than ever because now I know where to put my, what position to be in. And it's like, oh, man, like.

It's so cruel. Yeah, it's so cruel. Yeah, it's so cruel. So it was surprising to find out. I remember my grandfather when he was approaching 80. He was a really fit guy, very, very fit. He was a farmer and very strong hands, I remember. But I always wear this cowboy hat.

And I remember him standing and talking to my dad and saying, and he started to have some mental decline. And he was always so physically strong. And I remember him saying, I don't understand how this body is connected to this mind. Like it was like there were these two separate things happening. His body was actually getting, it wasn't. deteriorating the way his mind was. So it's different than what you're saying. You're noticing your body decline, but I understand the bifurcation of both scenarios, right?

It's like a separation that happens and it is equally cruel. Yeah. Okay. One, two, or three? One. Yes. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? Than all the other people.

than all the other emotions. There's one thing I know for sure, and this is what emotion I understand, because I don't, I've never experienced it, fortunately is jealousy. Oh, interesting. I'm not jealous. And I, because I've wondered, like,

why am I not jealous? You know, like, I don't know why, why, like, I think I've never experienced. that feeling. So I understand the, like, I understand not feeling it, you know? Do you understand it because you haven't felt it and thus you have spent time observing what it does to other people?

In a way, yes, and what it liberates me from. Ah. And I guess on the other side, on the, on the contrary side of that, would be like, I understand like a sort of, like an ethical, loyalty with with loved ones and friendship and

work and you know and and being in the same adventure loyalty that's a good yeah kind of an ethical sort of

contract fidelity that we unspoken you know kind of like a deal that we do with each other so

and that I understand it really well because whenever I see it broken in a way my heart breaks. I completely shatter. Like I go like, but I don't feel jealous.

You don't feel jealous and you don't feel angry when you see others break a contract like that. No, I just feel completely. Yeah. Yeah. Like,

yeah. Yeah. It's a good one, Guy. Okay. Thank you. Okay. One, two, or three? Two.

Two. When has selfishness served you well? Oh. for sure. For sure in, you know, in certain love relationships. Yeah? Yes, it has been very, very helpful to not feel that everything is your fault or that

you're guilty or like your responsibility or, you know, like. Is that your default? Is that something you tend to do? Well, I guess, I guess, I mean, I guess all. I mean, everyone is in that kind of, right now, like, we always, the relationships occupy so much time of our conversations and our thoughts, you know, and also these days, you know, in this kind of huge options that exist, you know, of how to be and how to engage in a relationship, you know, it's always, it's always a mystery, no, in a way. But for men, we haven't had like the language and the kind of like the sensitivity to create new concepts and new words to express what we feel, especially with each other. Right. And because women, I mean, feminism has done such a great job in evolving that scope of emotions and of, you know,

We have a lot of words. We have a lot of language. Exactly. Communication tools to express that. Exactly. And therefore, where it comes to is that women are very good to accompany themselves. No, they're very good at being with each other. It's strange. Like, you're in a very primal kind of like in a place with no words to express what's happening, you know. Tell me how that relates to selfishness.

To selfishness. Oh, yes. because I was getting lost to women. So I think that it's been good not to, you know, it's good to feel a little bit selfishness sense of protecting the certainties of what you desire in life. Sometimes, you know, you can be in a relationship with that you really love each other, but it's just not a working relationship, you know? And it's good to feel okay, like accept that and not feel like you're doing something wrong

and that you're doing something that's... and that you have to change this and that, that, that. Well, no, there's moments where it's like, but this is what it is. I don't know how to... And this is what I want, and it's not coming through this relationship. It needs to happen, yeah. And the love is there, but not, you know, but...

Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Uh-huh. It does. Okay. After the break, Gail shares why he doesn't look for certainty in life. Okay. We're moving to the last round. One, two, or three?

Two. Two. Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you found out wasn't true? Eh. Yes. Okay. It's going to sound a little bit. Supervisual. I'll take it. Okay. I was growing up in the acting, you know, in the theater world with actors, you know,

I used to think actors are the most intelligent people in the planet. Like, it's incredible. Like, they are just, they are incredible because they know everything. They, they, the way they say it, the way they talk about things. And then I realized, I realized that the job of being an actor is talking about what you don't know. with absolute certainty. And I was like, okay, okay. I realized it was just, yeah, it was a complete facade, no?

Like, it was nothing there. And, you know, in theater school and then working, I was like, actors are really like, there's really intelligent actors. Sure, sure, like anyone, yes. But there's some that are other type of intelligent. That's right. Other types. Yes, other types of intelligence.

Very generous, Gail. Okay. I like that. One, two, three. One. One. Have your feelings about death changed over time? Oh, yes.

Yes. It's changed a lot. Okay, well, I mean, definitely, I guess the first time for me and for, for, must have been for many, many people as well, is becoming a father, no? It's like, for example, somebody the other day was telling me, like, does anyone remember the name of the grandfather of your grandfather? And I was like, no, does anyone I don't think no one remembers that I know, that I can look for, that I can find or who knows? Like, wow, it's crazy how, you know, all these things are we going to build, you know, and kind of like all these structures that we fight for. we kind of like

try to achieve and so therefore you see that transcendence is something else and definitely with a with a baby transcendence is there no there is something

that is there and will continue and will live and will reproduce will be something else that you never and you would just admire but it is similar

to what we do in films as well I mean my approach to them to doing films is trying to do something that is, and it might sound a little bit presumptuous,

but it's, I tried to do something that hopefully has some transcendence of something, and you really want these films to kind of transcend and hopefully be seen in many, many years,

because that's who we were at that point. So what does that transcendence mean for you? Like if you were to be able to convey one thing that lived on after you, you expire, what is the thing? Well,

Fortunately, many things that have been, and I've had a fortune of this, and this is very lucky also, like, many of the things that I've participated in have helped amplify the dimensions of many discussions and of many conversations that had to happen in my time. these films have been emolions or catalysts of something or have been accompanying, you know, certain issues we can deal into this very, you know, interesting concepts of what is democracy. For example, I recommend that film now. Now, maybe you haven't, maybe if you've seen it or not, but it's called No by Pablo Larrain. We did it in Chile a few years ago and it is about the moment where they ousted, Pinochet, no, and the dictator and it's incredible the whole sort of anthropological game that is played there because it is a project about democracy. What is democracy, no? And I love doing that.

So hopefully I wish that all these projects have transcendence that I'm able to grasp as well and to feel, but that when I'm not here anymore, They will be seen as kind of like, oh, this guys made their best effort. This guys really tried something and they were getting into something or they were touching into interesting subjects. Okay, Gail, last question. One, two or three. One. One. Do you think that there is a part of people that lives on after they die?

Mm-hmm. Yes, I do. If not, I wouldn't be a, I wouldn't, if I don't, if I don't. If I don't enjoy, not believe, but like enjoy or dwell on the mystery of things, then I think I wouldn't be an actor. Because if I had the certainty and I wouldn't have like a, and I would be like, I'm only about facts, then I would read the phone book. That would be my wonderful kind of like joy of reading the phone book.

That is real. It's super real. So I love the mystery and the poetic behind all of it, but not as a believer, but mostly like that kind of enjoyment or curiosity. Nothing ends. Everything transforms. And that's a law of physics. So it's, and it is, I can feel it. I mean, there's so many examples I can say.

Some of them are incredibly personal. But I want to say like, yeah, I mean, I guess, okay, okay, now coming out, like, okay, fine, I'll say it. My little daughter was born when we knew that my daughter was, that we were pregnant, my father passed away. Like it was like, yeah. So it was that kind of like tag team. Yeah. We end the show the same way every time. Here's how.

With a trip in our memory time machine. Here we go. We're going, we're going. Where you, Gail, pick one moment from your life to revisit. It's a moment you wouldn't change anything about. You would just like to linger there a little longer. Okay. Wow.

It gets very emotional. Okay, should I say where it is? Yes. Okay. So me and Diego, my very good friend, we said, okay, we said, okay, our team, Pumas of the National Autonomous University was getting to the final of the football. tournament and this was our team, you know. And we were, we were 10 and 11. And yeah, we were really young.

And we said, like, we have to go to the final. We have to get it. We have to go. We got the tickets. And our team won. And we were like completely like, we were carried by so many people. So the fans were there like carrying us. And we were like, you know, jumping up and down.

and the players came to where we were, you know, like very close, and we were like, da-la-l-l-l-le-d-d-you-no. And this was like, we were like ten hours there or something, just going crazy, you know, like going absolutely completely crazy. And, you know, it was so magical afterwards walking out, you know, went back to our places, you know, like feeling like, perhaps this is the only time we're ever going to win in life. You know, we went there just really,

I don't know, being part of something, wanting to be part of something. And wanting to be part of that community. And it was a beautiful moment. One of the best moments on my life. Gail Garcia Bernal's new show is La Machina, and it's out on Hulu now. Gail, thank you for talking with me. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you for this conversation. And it's nice to feel so open about being able to talk about all this. Yeah, I appreciate it. Good luck with everything. If you like this episode, you should check out my conversation with Lovar Burton. He's another person who found a lot of success early, but somehow just seems so well adjusted and frankly, very calming to talk to. He was very lovely.

This episode was produced by Rommel Wood and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Candice Voort Camp and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romteen Arlooy. You can reach out to us at Wildcard, at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.