Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Jenny Han insists on hope

Episode Date: July 3, 2025

Jenny Han feels like the same person as her teenage self – which might explain why her books and their adaptations connect so strongly with teen audiences. Her "To All The Boys" and "The Summer I Turned Pretty" franchises are streaming juggernauts – among teens and adults. Jenny spoke with Rachel about the importance of writing about love and why embarrassment feels so close to the surface. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

What emotion do you understand better than all the others? I would say embarrassment. I think I am very shameforward. And I think, to me, it's the only emotion that you can feel it as acutely right now as you did in the moment. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question

and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is writer and showrunner, Jenny Hahn. I really must insist on hope. And I do think that that is, for me, the only real difference between writing stories for a young audience and for adults is a hopeful ending. As of this summer, I am officially the parent of a teenage.

And I am ready for all the beauty and emotional messiness that this experience will bring because we all know that this stage of life is, I don't know, I guess I'll use the word intense. It is so intense. The rampant insecurity about our bodies or our social status or our parents' expectations, I remember all of that. And personally, I was just desperate to get on the other side of adolescence. Jenny Hahn also struggled with parts of her teenage years, but instead of locking it all away in some mental box and moving on with her life. Jenny made it her life.

Her books are a modern take on the timeless challenges of growing up. And yes, that includes the ecstasy and agony of a first love. Her bestselling series include to all the boys I've loved before and the summer I Turn Pretty, both of which were turned into shows or future films. Season three of the Summer I Turn Pretty comes out on Prime Video, July 16th, And I am so very happy to welcome Jenny Hahn to Wildcard. Hi, Jenny. Hi.

Hi. How do you feel? I'm in the zone. I'm ready. All right. So, first three cards, we're in the memories round. One, two, or three? Um, one.

One. What's an experience from childhood when you realized your parents were only human? I would say that as a oldest child of immigrants, I never had a moment of, of, oh my gosh, they're human, because from as long as I can remember, I was sort of their translator and person, like an adult in the world. Yeah. So I don't think it was ever an aha type of thing because I was always having to help out with stuff with my parents. Or even like, you know, going to McDonald's, I would always like order because they couldn't understand their accent and then I would have to do it anyways. or going to the store and then the salesperson would talk to me, even though I'm seven,

and my parents are obviously adults. So I think, again, it was just, I think, the reality for kids who have parents who are immigrants in English, is their second language. And it's what has, I think, prepared me so well to be a showrunner or a director because I'm used to making decisions. I mean, I talk about this in therapy all the time. So I'm always like, like, my issues, I'm always like scanning the horizon for danger, like, at all times. How has all this affected your relationship with your parents today?

I think they have always, like, I remember when I told them I was going to move to New York and get my master's in creative writing and take out all these loans to do it. It was after I graduated college. And my parents are both worriers. They worry about everything. And I thought they were going to be worried about that. But my mom said to me, I'm not worried at all because your talent with writing. So I think, so whatever you think is best. And so it always has been, you know better than us.

So you, whatever you want to do or whatever you want to do. whatever you think is right is what you should be doing that I'm going to take out, you know, $35,000 in loans and do this. And there's no guarantee at the end of it that you're going to have a job. You have no idea. It's a creative field. But I think I really did feel that confidence because they had always trusted me to, in many ways, like, lead the family. I mean, it worked out. And it worked out about your instinct was right. Yeah.

And they were always really supportive of that. Okay. One, two, or three. Let's go with three. Three. What do you admire about your teenage self? This one's apropos. You know what?

It's so weird, but I don't know that I, like, have a delineation between my teenage self and my self as a woman. in our 40s in a way. Like I feel like I'm still the same person. I still love to write and I still love, you know, spending time with my friends, my family and cooking and all those things. So, I mean, that girl at 16 versus this woman today, I don't know. I guess I'm not, it still feels like I'm the same me. I guess all of this kind of leads to the fact that I started writing for young people,

and I didn't really see a difference between young people and adults in the same way that I think a lot of people do. Like, people will say to me, I like, I love your show, but I'm like too old for it. And I'm like, there's no such thing. It's just like people, you know. And I think for me, writing for young people and writing about those stories has always been. about wanting to approach it with respect and not ever feel like it was minimizing or talking down to the experience. When you have no one to eat with at lunch, that's really, like, humiliating and hard.

And I don't think that's so different than something today as what I experience as a grown-up. Okay. So I want to pull back from the game a little bit because we need to talk about all of your projects There are so many things because you don't, I mean, you started out, you were writing books, and you were real good at telling stories, and now these stories have become these massive, massive hits in popular culture in the form of TV shows and feature films. I mean, was owning your own media empire part of the grand plan when you set out? It wasn't. It was, honestly, to all the boys of love before is the first one of my books that was adapted. And it's strange to say this now because I think people have a short memory of things and how far things have moved culturally. But nobody wanted to make it into a movie because they didn't want, they knew that in their minds it wasn't going to get people. to the theater if we couldn't get somebody who was like a green lightable actress to star in it. And so there were so few Asian American actors that were the leads of anything that it was just kind of...

The main character in the book is Asian American. Asian American. And so to all the boys, studios were interested in it. And then I would talk to them and they're naming names and none of them are like Asian. And I'm going, well, that doesn't... And they're white. They're white young actresses. Yes.

Yes. What did you say in those moments? I was like, because one of them said, you know, because they named a couple of names of like young actresses that were big at the time. And I was like, well, the character's Asian American though. And they were like, well, as long as like her spirit is, the actor's spirit is like Laura Jean, then I think that's what really matters. And I was like, no, but her spirit is Asian American. So that doesn't work. And that's the end of the conversation.

So, you know, that was a red line for me. It just was. But I think, again, that was in 2017, 2018, 2016. It was all in that time, and it's only been, it hasn't even been 10 years. And that now there have been shifts since then. What do you love about writing about love? I think that at the end of your life, when you look back on everything and you think, you know, was this a life worth living? You're thinking about the people you loved.

You're thinking not about necessarily work or ambition or those things. I think you think about your family. You think about your loved ones. And if you spent enough time with them and I don't think there's anything more important than that. And so when I'm watching any story, I always like to watch a story with some sort of component of that because I obviously want Katness to, you know, win the war and fight against the capital, obviously. But what am I like, what is my like heart breaking for? It's like, you know, when PETA was like ripped away from her and she, like, that is important also, you know, like. And it's a hunger games for those who don't know who are not cluing into these name references.

You know, like that's what makes it feel real. And that's what you really care about. And that's what I care about. I care about, obviously, the resistance and everything. But, you know, if I'm watching The Walking Dead or like a zombie thing, you're caring that they're going to make it out. And that they can find some way to, like, have a semblance of a life. A zombie love. Yeah.

You're rooting for zombie love. Something, no. I mean, so am I. So we have to give the people what they want. So season three is coming up of the summer I turned pretty. These are based on the books. But for people who have not read the books and are just watching the show, I know you can't say, but do you in general like a happy ending?

Do you like a messier ending? What can you tell? I like a hopeful ending. I don't like too neat of an ending. Okay. Personally. But I really must insist on hope. Because if something ends in such a bleak way...

If you're going to insist on anything. That's why I insist on. And I do think that that is, for me, the only real difference between writing stories for a young audience and for adults is... a hopeful ending. And it's because as a YA writer, I care about my readers. Like, I do feel a responsibility in that sense. I would never want someone to read my book and then want to cause like self-harm or feel like deeply depressed after reading that. And then that would be, because they're still a child. You know,

you are responsible for them to some degree, I feel. And it's different though for adults. Adults can, you know, you can decide for yourself and you have an adult brain. But for young people, I want them to feel hopeful. I want them to feel good about themselves and good about the world around them. That's important to me. I mean, the third season, the characters are older. They are now adults. They are in their 20s. They're in their... We should just say the main character, Belly, is trapped in a love triangle. And with two guys she's grown up with, and she has to choose one. I mean, this is basically.

Well, she doesn't. Or not. I don't think she has to choose one. I think she may. Or may not. I think that... She's been pulled in both directions. That is the, like, tragedy of the story is that no matter what, you're going to be hurting somebody that you love dearly.

but we're still going to feel hope at the end. You will still feel hope. I think, I hope so. All we can do is hope for hope. Hope for hope. Okay, you ready for more game? Yeah. Round two.

Insights. Three new cards. One, two, or three. Three. Three. What are you okay being selfish about? I'm very fine being selfish about staying in a nice hotel.

Same girl, same. The older I get, the more I'm like, I just can't, I really don't want to like sleep in an uncomfortable place. I know. I'm selfish about that. I also get car sick really easily, so I do like to be in the front seat. Do you have to drive? Or like, can you be in a passenger seat?

I can be in the passenger seat. You can be in the passenger. Yes. And I do like to control the music. I mean, you're right there. You're the passenger. Yeah, I like that. I guess those are my top things.

Those are good. Those are good. One, two, or three. One. What does age teach you about love? Let's go two. Oh, that's a Jenny Han softball. No, indeed.

Okay, here we go. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? I would say, well, I like this question. I would say embarrassment. I think I am very shame forward. Like, I easily feel shame. I think it's, again, like feeling embarrassed all the time as a kid. And I think, to me, this is a really important one.

because I feel that it's the only emotion that you can feel it as acutely right now as you did in the moment. Like, I don't think it really fades. When you think back to something that you said to somebody that was really embarrassing that you really, like, shamed yourself, I feel it. I feel like I'm right back in ninth grade and I, like, said something so dumb. And I think love and hate and anger, all that can fade. But I think kind of humiliation and shame feel to me very, like, close to you. the surface. And when you're writing, I mean, I guess it's not your shame. It's your imagination. So you're conjuring these shameful situations. Well, I'll funnel it out of myself. I pour it, you know, into the

story. Yeah. Do you ever write actual experiences that happened to you that were shameful? Or do you not go straight for the jugular that way? I definitely do. Out of self-preservation. Really? Oh, yeah. I definitely do. And sometimes it's by accident. Yeah, I often, like, well, this one was about somebody, someone else's shame. So in my first book, Shug, there's a moment where she, like, executes a beautiful dive off a diving board and, like, she feels like so good about herself. And then realizes, like, when she got home, but she, her back of the bathing suit has a huge hole in the butt. And I've put that in the book and I'm like, oh, yeah, this feels, this is like, really, like, a pungent kind of a potent memory, feeling. Didn't happen to me. And my sister read it. And she was like,

Oh, I can't believe you put Sandy's story in there. And I was like, what? And she was like, I couldn't completely, my cousin. When they were around that age, they were at a water park. And they were in line for a ride. And then there were these older boys behind them who were, like, laughing. And then they turned and looked in and they realized that, like, my cousin's butt was like, it was like her bathing suit was completely open. So I was like, oh, yeah.

That's where that came. from. Yeah. So I did. I put that in there without realizing it. Did the, then did your cousin just read the book and, and she never mentioned it. Now she might see this. Maybe she'll see this and be like, well, thanks, Jen. Thanks a lot. Oh my gosh, you really put me through it. I'm just kidding. One, two, or three. Okay, one, two, three. Okay. Well, which one do you think I should pick? Jenny. Okay, fine, two. What's something you no longer take for granted?

I, oh my gosh, now I'm going to cry. Don't. There was a moment where someone who I love dearly, we thought they might be very sick. And so we were waiting. It was a holiday. We were waiting to find out the results. And we weren't able to even get the test and stuff until after the holiday. And then it was like a long wait. And so it was like a good month of not knowing. And I just remember I was like really like beside myself. I couldn't stop crying every single day. I couldn't even like get up because I was so worried. Because I was thinking, okay, well, I I could take off and move to this other place because this is where there was a hospital for this particular illness. I was like really going down the sort of like my issue I brought up before about scanning the horizon for danger and then like gaming out every single thing. It was like $100,000 a month for these like tests, these like trials. Clinical trials, experimental therapies, yeah.

Yeah. And I was like how do I like and I had been thinking about buying an apartment at that time. And I was thinking that I had that. And I could sort of like figure that out. And then it turned out that he didn't have that. But what became so clear was that like really nothing else mattered was then except for his health. And it's such a good like reminder and I guess like wake up call and like lesson because, you know, sure, like I hope that the third season of Summer I Turned Pretty is a hit, and I hope people love it. I mean, that's my biggest thing is I really want people to love it, and I want people

to feel satisfied with it. But in the end, like, it doesn't really matter. Like, what matters is the people that you love are like, okay. And the rest of it just fades away. Like, it's not ultimately that important in the grand scheme of, like, your life, you know? And so that, I think. And I remember feeling that relief when we found out that he didn't have that. But, like, I felt like I don't ever want to lose this clarity that I'm having right now, you know, because it feels like a gift to even have that. Like, it feels, it's like a near-death experience, you know. And I also.

The mind in a very, very real way. This is all that matters and nothing else really, really does. And it sounds, I guess, trite, but it's really true. It's really true. And I think alongside that, I also had a moment of thinking, I never also want to be the person who is, like, seeing somebody who is, you know, like, sick or going through something and then thinking, oh, my gosh, we're so lucky. Or, you know, when you ever you hear about, like, a school shooting or those things happening. and then people are like, hold your kids a little tighter tonight. And, like, I understand the, like, sentiment behind that.

But at the same time, it's, like, almost you're getting your relief off of, like, other people's, like, huge pain and tragedy, you know? And it could be you. That's the thing, is, was, I guess, a part of my clarity of going, like, that could be you just like that. It could be anybody. And so don't, like, take your comfort off of, like, other people's, like, pain, you know, because I think it's a comment.

thing to do. I think of like, gosh, I'm like, oh, well, we're so lucky that that's like, not us, you know, but you're not really thinking about the person who is experiencing that. And then it's just, like, I guess, well, luck of the draw. You draw that card and it's you. So try not to, I guess, have that thing. I think that's a really important point. And I think that does happen to a lot of people, you know? You practice appreciation, but only in in comparison to someone else's pain. And you can be grateful. You can have appreciation that does not have to stand in contrast to someone else's tragedy. I think it's a very normal human response to have that immediate feeling. But I also think it's good to sort of interrogate that feeling and think,

like, maybe it's not positive or, like, helpful. Yeah. I agree. And I'm glad your person in your life is better. Thank you. Three more. One, two, or three. One of. When do you think about your smallness in the universe? I love like going when I'm, I love museums that are about like how people lived. Like, you know, it's sort of like, I don't know, when you go and you just see. what it was like 500 years ago in that place. I really like that because you just think how, like, connected we all are,

and it makes you feel like a part of something bigger. I remember reading about this. I think they found some sort of in a cave or some sort of artifact of a love letter that a woman had written from, like, a thousand years ago. they found this letter. It was in Korean. And then she said, her husband had died, and she said in this letter, it was like, at night, I can still, like, fill your arms around me.

And it was, like, the most romantic letter. I just thought, wow. Like, sometimes you even look at, like, your parents and you go, or, like, people from another time. And you're like, did they know love? I think, do they, like, do they, like, live in the same way? Do they feel things, like, as sharply as we do? And to see that artifact, you think, every, we're all just the same. And even, you know, like, I don't know, people, like, living in caves had the same intensity and, like, complexity of, like, of feeling and, like, emotion. And that makes me feel small in a really good way.

I mean, I love all instances that that make you feel connected to ancestors and wake us up to their full humanity instead of these like one dimensional representations that you often get in history books. It's hard to picture it, you know? It's hard to see them as as that. And you just think that every, I think every generation feels like this is. No one's ever experienced this before. Exactly. An embarrassment? No one's ever seen a butt on the diving part or whatever that story is. No one's ever felt my pain in this way. And it is such a helpful reminder that everything that we're going through has been done before so many times. It really is.

This is the last question, Jenny. Oh, God, I'm really going through it. Okay. One, two, and three. I guess I'll do three. Three. Where do you feel most free? I feel very free with my family. Yeah. Because they have seen me at my worst moments and they still want to be around me.

And so I feel very free to be, you know, whoever and whatever mood I'm in. That's such a lucky thing. You know that, right? What? Like, that family is not often the place that people feel most free. Is it not? I mean, don't you feel like unconditional love, I guess? Oh, of course.

That's, I feel like that's different. Unconditional love and really feeling free. I think it's a gift. Yeah. I think that's a special thing. I don't think everybody, I don't think that's a given for everybody. I'm fortunate. Yeah.

It sounds like you are. And they watch all your stuff and read. Do they prefer to read your stuff or watch or both? Well, English is their second language. So my mom has read all my books in English, but it's also great that they're published in Korean too. So she reads both. She likes to look to like almost side by side to make sure she's understanding all the sort of nuances. Wow. That's a dedicated reader. Yeah. And does she ever have notes for you or she's just like, no, she doesn't. You trust your instinct. You wrote a good book. The end. No, she just, she just likes it. She likes it all.

Jenny Hahn, thank you for doing this. We have one more request. We end the show the same way every time. Okay. With a trip in our memory time machine, in the memory time machine, you get to revisit one moment from your past. It is not a moment you want to change anything about.

It's just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose? Am I going back and I'm just observing the moment or am I like... You live in it. Living it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're not separate from it.

You're living it. My gosh. But I'd love that you ask that clarification question. You know what? I'll pick... I will pick an afternoon with my grandpa. And I will pick that. I will pick us going to get his haircut.

And I remember holding hands and eating an Eskimo pie. And I guess it must have been like four or five, but it's one of my earliest memories. But we were very close and he hasn't passed away. But he lived with us and I was just like he is my buddy. And I think I would like to go back and see him again. Did he often take you to get his haircut? I think I just went with him wherever. We used to sit there and he sat in his armchair.

and I was sitting in his lap and we'd watch Samford and Sun. And the prize is right. He didn't speak English. And he couldn't walk very well. So I think I picked that one because that time he could still walk. And I liked holding his hand. Season three of the summer I Turn Pretty is out on Prime Video, July 16th. Jenny Hunt, thank you so much for doing this.

I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. This has been lovely. If you like that conversation, you should go back and check out my other Y.A. Author episodes. John Green and Jason Reynolds. Both of these conversations are honestly two of my favorites ever on the show. They are both full of wisdom and so much humanity. I am serious. Please go listen to these episodes right now if you haven't done so before. This episode was produced by Summer Tomad and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Maggie Luthorne.

Wildcard's executive producer is Yolana Sangweni. Our theme music is by Ramteen, our You can reach out to us at wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.