Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Jesse Eisenberg sprinkles trouble throughout his day

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

Jesse Eisenberg plays characters who spend a lot of time in their heads grappling with anxiety, fear and insecurity. You can see it in "The Squid and the Whale," "Zombieland" and his latest film, the Oscar-nominated "A Real Pain." He chats with Rachel about how anxiety plays into his own life, as well as his unique use of ChatGPT, his pro basketball aspirations and the virtues of true boredom. To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

What do you find yourself getting fixated on? I've been fixated on trying to remember if I went two, three, one with the first round of cards, and if I should do that again or if I should change it up. And I guess this speaks to a larger truth, which is just like I get fixated on complete and utter irrelevance. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one or flip one back on me.

My guest this week is actor, writer, director, Jesse Eisenberg. My preoccupation in my life is like, how do I try to find meaning in a life that seems too good for what my expectations were for my life? I appreciate Jesse Eisenberg not just because he's really good at acting, but because he helps me raise my kids. What, you ask? Okay, so that was unnecessarily provocative, but here's what I mean. Jesse tends to play these male characters with deep interior lives. Characters who spend a lot of time feeling things like anxiety, fear, and insecurity. They are also big, hearted, and kind.

And on screen, we see Jesse's characters trying to find their place in a world where men are expected to flatten their vulnerabilities and all their emotions to fit into some antiquated definition of masculinity. Okay, so what does this have to do with my kids? Well, I've got two boys. They are 10 and 12. and I want very much for them to turn into young men who are comfortable living through every one of their emotions. And maybe I'm giving Hollywood too much power in my life, but it feels affirming as a parent to see these kinds of male characters on screen.

Case in Point, The Squid and the Whale from 2005. The Art of Self-Defense from 2019. The show Fleischman is in trouble from the same year. And of course, the movie that's getting a ton of accolades right now, including an Oscar nomination for Best Original Screenplay, The movie A Real Pain, which Jesse wrote and directed. We also co-stars in the film alongside Kieran Culkin. These are just a few of my favorite performances of his, and I am so excited to welcome Jesse Eisenberg to Wildcard.

Hi, Jesse. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you for that amazing introduction and apparent responsibility that I have to family. Sorry, no pressure. They're great kids, so you've been doing a great job. No, thanks. I'm sure they're fine. And, yeah, you're welcome. So I don't know a lot of film directors, but Ruben Fleischer happens to be a family friend of mine.

And when I told him I was going to interview you for our show, he sent me the most lovely text that I want to read to you. Okay? This is a quote from Rubin, who has directed you, I think, in like four movies. Four movies, yeah. Yeah. There isn't a kinder actor to work with. Jesse knows all the crew members by name and discovers a little about each person's life. Actors have a reputation for being self-absorbed.

Jesse is the exact opposite, where it seems like he'd rather talk about anyone other than himself. Yes. So that's what your director thinks of you. It's probably not good to send to somebody who's doing an interview with me for a radio show. But, yeah, no, Rubin, I love, we literally finished a movie a month ago, which is our fourth movie. And I just love him, too. He's also such a curious person, although he presents on the outside as, like, very kind of like, it's just, he's a contradiction of a person, and I love him so much, a very

sensitive person who you might not necessarily suspect. Yeah, he's lovely. He loves you. He was glad to hear that you were on the show. And hopefully that doesn't mean that this is going to be too painful for you, because I'm going to ask you about yourself. That's fine. I talk about other people because I do weird things like this occasionally and have to constantly talk about myself.

And so, yes, I'm going to take as many opportunities. as I can to learn about other people. Okay, so I think it's going to be fun. I think you're actually going to enjoy it. Okay, let's go. Great. First three cards. Okay.

One, two, or three? Two. Two. What's something you thought was normal about your childhood that you now realized was unusual? Yeah, what was normal? What did I think was normal? You know, I mean, I was, I mean, but I was, I mean, but I was, I mean, but I was, I was, I mean, I don't want to like sounds like I'm asking for pity.

I was like a miserable, miserable kid. I was like, I mean, I had great parents. I was a miserable kid for some reason. And I thought it was like normal that were all terrified of all things. And now I take my kid to school, you know, which I did two hours ago. And they run right into the building smiling. And the first like time that happened, which was like, you know, first day of school, I don't two years ago, whatever, I was like, what is going on?

How do they not know what's inside for them? And so I keep like, as a parent. like waiting for like the shoe to drop in reality to hit that actually life is miserable and going to school is miserable. And they just haven't felt that yet. And so that I guess that's that's something. And it's been, I would say like overall like an unbelievably revelatory experience watching my kid go to school in a different way than I did. Wow, there's a lot in that answer. And we will touch on these things I imagine in subsequent questions. But I do wonder my immediate follow up to that.

has watching your kid not suffer from the same kind of anxiety that you did, has that lessened any current or existing anxiety that still travels with you into adulthood? Like, does your child's boldness in the world and ability not to be paralyzed by fear, does it free you in some way from your own? No, I think I'm too old to like change. So I'm still like continuously mystified as to like, you know, people who seem to like walk through the world like with their head held high. I don't understand it. In fact, I asked ChatGPT this morning, do you think if I had more circumstantially difficult life experiences if I'd be more confident asking for a bagel?

And ChatchipT said, well, actually there is a trove of academic evidence to support what you're saying, which is like, you know, growth through trauma, etc. So this is like kind of what I'm obsessed about. chat GPT is a great place to go for these very, you know, human questions. Do you do that? Do you use chat GPT that way? Yeah, because, you know, I'm really interested in like, I'm not like that much of an educated person. I have a bachelor's degree, but I'm not like I come from more academics. And so, like, anytime I have these thoughts about myself, I try to see if there's like any academic literature that supports these things that I think are these like epiphanies, you know, it's like when

you're in high school and you think you're so brilliant for having like basically epiphanies that somebody had thousands of years ago. And so I just try to see if there's any kind of literature to support the thing that I think is so novel in my head, you know? Oh, that hadn't occurred to me. That actually is useful. So it's not that you need validation from artificial intelligence about what you're feeling, but it gives you resources.

It basically gives you footnotes. Yeah. So I got a bagel this morning, and I felt too nervous to ask something about the bagel. And then I had this thought, which was that I wonder if I had something more abysmal. objectively horrifying happen in my life, I'd be much more comfortable asking about the bagel because I wouldn't have this kind of, you know, let's say needless fantastical self-consciousness that for some reason I carry around. And so I said, is there any like literature to support this kind of thing? And it said, yes, there are theories about growth through trauma, which means like that, you know, if you experience

something traumatic, you're working on growth in a way that makes me be less conscious about these kind of smaller little petty things. Yeah. This is going to be an interesting episode. I can Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I imagine how interesting this bagel was this morning. Little did the bagel, though, it was part of a discussion with the computer. This poor little unsuspecting everything bagel. Was it everything? What was it? It was pumpernickel everything. And my initial question was, is pumpernickel healthier than eating a plain bagel? And then I was thinking, oh, I could ask the people behind the counter. But no, it's a grab-and-go-fast New York place. They don't want to answer this kind of question. And so then I went to chat, GPT, and I said, do you think if I suffered an objective to,

trauma, I would have asked if the pumper nickel was healthier. And it said, yeah, maybe. What a dumb life. A dumb, dumb, dumb life. No, that is, I feel like that's, that there's a kernel of a movie in there somewhere. Yeah. Okay. Three. The next question, one, two, three, you pick three. Who was a person you wanted to emulate growing up? Oh. Ooh. Gee. Okay. When, um, yeah, when I was younger, I was obsessed with basketball and I wanted to be in the NBA. And like, you know, not in like a kind of like, I want to be a space man. Like, no, I really like thought like it's going to happen. I mean, I guess people who want to be spacemen might also think that. But like I really did think, I mean, the spaceman, there are not like 250 slots. You know what I mean? With the NBA, you really have a good. You have a good. You know what I mean? You thought you had a chance. I mean, were you good? Exactly. Yeah, I was good. And the kid, there was a kid who lived across the street for me and he was six foot. His name was Tom, and he lived across the tree for me in New Jersey. And I remember thinking it was so amazing that I knew somebody who was 6-1.

And I thought that gave me a better chance, you know, because it was there. That's right. Knowing Tom, playing basketball with Tom, and just having, basically just seeing that it was possible to be 6-1. And now I'm an adult and I realize like 6-1 in the NBA would be really, it would be small. You'd be a, you know, a smaller end guard. And, but at the time, Tom made it feel possible in New Jersey, drinking the same water as I drank. That's right. You know, was 6-1.

Did, I have so many questions. How tall are you, Jesse? Me, I'm like maybe 5, 8 and a half, I think, maybe in maths. You were not 6-1, no, yeah. No, I'm not 6-1, but, you know, I could taste it. Genetics were not in your favor. Who knows what have happened? No, no, genetics are in my favor.

Both my grandfathers were tall. I think I was just depressed and I stopped drinking milk for two years because, I don't know, I had some weird phobia amongst other weird phobias. Both my grandfathers are six-one. So, yeah, I don't know. I genuinely think I think I ruined myself. I think I self-destructed when I was 12 and 13 out out of a phobia of milk. I think your inner basketball player may have self-destructed, but it's okay. I mean, it worked out. Yeah. Okay. Last one in this round. One, two, or three. One. One. One. What's a moment when you remember being brave as a teenager? Ooh, as a teenager, being brave. Give me a second.

Well, so in my senior year of high school, I kind of like came into my own a little bit. I grew up in New Jersey, and my senior year of high school, I transferred to a performing arts high school in New York City. And it was just like, I just became like an adult overnight going there. But the bravest thing I did was probably cut school one day to go see a Broadway matinee of Judgment at Nuremberg, which maybe tells you enough about me, you know, to understand my full personality, which is that like, you know, my friends and I, well, one friend and I Graham, but also like the way we were planning it, like a heist at math class in the morning, like, yeah, cool, I'm going to meet you at lunch, and we're going to get that. I think we can get student tickets for the last room mezzanine. And so like our big, our big transgression. in high school was going to see a Broadway matinee. I'm sure it would have been like the kind of thing like that if our teachers caught us, they'd be like, oh my God, you sweet nerds, of course go. That's great.

I'm giving you an A anyway, yeah. Okay, so we're actually going to pause from the game for a few minutes. Okay. And I want to talk about your new movie. It's called A Real Pain, and you are getting so much positive feedback on this film. It has been nominated up the wazoo for all kinds of stuff. You've been nominated for Best Original Screenplay at the Oscars. Kieran Culkin was nominated for Best Supporting Actor.

He already won that award at the Golden Globes. So, I mean, congratulations on all of it. Oh, thanks. It's about these two cousins who come together to go on this heritage tour back to Poland, where their family originated from. And they're trying to connect with the experience of their ancestors who survived the Holocaust. Kieran Culkin was cast as Benji, who's this troubled cousin of your character, David. And I understand you had not seen Kieran Kulkin in anything before. You were just like, I feel like that guy would be good.

Let me call him. Yeah. Yeah, that is kind of what happened. I just, yeah, have a sense. Kieran has this very unusual quality where he is just like this very unusual mix of incredibly sophisticated and also like spontaneously crass. It's hard to describe, but it's exactly what this character is.

It's like the character is like smart, but kind of like dumps himself down as a power move and also to try to feel like a little bit more like of the people. He kind of like stifles his higher brow curiosities. It's just a mixture of all these things and like Kieran does all this stuff. You know, you could see that he has a deep inner life. But at the same time he's very funny. and can kind of like, you know, let anxieties roll off his back in a way that affect me more.

And it just felt like, oh, the two of us together felt right. Yeah. I mean, what I love about it is that these are, they're like psychological profiles of these two men. Yeah, exactly. Deep examinations of how they absorb the trauma of their family, but also how they're just trying to navigate their own relationship and their place in the world, as I kind of said, intro. And Kieran in particular, his character felt like a composite of a lot of people. Not a lot, but a handful of people that I know in my life who are these charismatic bright

lights. And they know how to use that energy. But also there's just like such a deep, deep sadness. And he was able so beautifully to kind of straddle that. And then there's your character who's just like, you have to suffer the repercussions of all his emoting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's like this, you know, there's something comic and the dynamic of, like, the guy who overprepared and still loses, you know, like, my character pays for the trip, and he prepares the trip and schedules the trip and shows up early. And then just for whatever set of life cosmic reasons,

the other characters all love Kieran and don't like me. And it's like, I understand it from like a social dynamic person, which is that like the person who seems like kind of self-conscious and over-eager, you know, is the person who kind of gets on people's nerves. I get it because I've been in those situations and I've been on the other end of those situations too. And then like by contrast, the person who seems to like not really care and the person who seems to kind of like be comfortable in their own skin for whatever set of circumstances,

like those people are liked. Like, you know, I see my wife is incredibly charming and funny and wonderful, but she's late to everything and I'm early to everything. And I see what happens, which is that like I get to. to a place early and I'm helping set up the chairs and everything. And my wife, and people are nice to me. Oh, thanks for helping with the chairs and everything and, you know, whatever. But no one really cares about me.

And then my wife comes in like 10 minutes late. And the group has to like restart whatever we were doing. And she's so charming. And she's like, I'm so sorry. I went the wrong way and I got an apple on the way. And like, they're like, oh, great. No, come on in. How was the apple?

And she's like, it wasn't good. And they're like, well, let's go get you another apple. You sit down. And so like her, I see the world just like opens up to her. And I think for people like me. and I love my wife and everything. When I'm with people like that, I'm like, just how is it possible

that the world opens their door for people like that and closes it on people like me? But I also understand it from like a social dynamic perspective. Yeah. Have you heard from a lot of people for whom this really resonated,

either people who've, I don't know, gone back to Europe to try to reconnect with family stories from the Holocaust or Poland in particular in that concentration camp in particular? Yeah. I mean, I've met just as many people who are Jewish and have a connection to this very specific history as people who are non-Jews, but just it resonates for them because they were curious about where their family is from.

I mean, you know, the most kind of vivid story I heard is from somebody who's very clearly not Jewish, Conan O'Brien, who told me that, you know, he went back to see where his family was from in Ireland. And he said I had a really similar kind of strange epiphany. and he said he was looking out at the rolling hills in Ireland, and he asked the guy who was showing him around as he was up, you know, his family's ancestral home. And he goes, God, it's just so beautiful. Why would they have ever left? And the guy said, because he can't eat the views.

You know, so it was just this, you know, again, this kind of like bitter sweet understanding of history of, wow, God, this was gorgeous and yet so, so horrible. And the same thing in Poland, you know, we're on this tour and so much of it is so beautiful. And yet, you know, the actual history, that we're exploring is, you know, unbelievably traumatic, industrialized murder, you know, is so horrific. But there's like a kind of, you know, aesthetic irony there, of course.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Thank you for that. It's an excellent movie. Everyone should see it. We're going to get back into the game. Okay. Three new cards.

Okay? Sure. Yep. It's round two. This is like insights. Okay. Let's go two. Two.

Is the music you listen to happier or sadder than you are? that's so funny I guess sadder in the sense that I really do like I really like musical theater but I really only like dark musical theater this morning we were listening to Lighten the Piazza as my kid was getting ready

there's some really heartbreaking songs like dividing day I was playing for my eight year old before they had to go to school today that's probably will cause some problems I don't know what that is oh it's a woman it's from Lighten the Piazza Adam Gettle and it's about this woman

realizing that she perhaps was always disconnected from her husband even at their wedding. And now she's like an older woman and she's realizing that her marriage hasn't been working. So that's what I was playing. Have a good day, kiddo. Yeah, 7.30 in the morning. And then I listen to Chopin all the time too. And that's all the music in a real pain is my favorite music, which is Chopin, nocturns. And my kid knows them. I like emotionally evocative music. You know, I don't like fun music. I notice sometimes my wife will play like fun music and I just I'm like how do you even has access to that how do you even know about these things you know I just don't understand the point of that the point of

music for me is to get us back in touch with something miserable but for her she likes to feel happy which is you know it's her prerogative you know yeah exactly they're own yeah she needs to do that in her life you know weirdo okay yeah three three more cards one two or three okay three what do you find yourself getting fixed I've been fixated on trying to remember if I went two, three, one with the first round of cards and if I should do that again or if I should change it up. And I guess this speaks to a larger truth, which is just like I get fixated on complete and utter irrelevance. Yeah, so like with this. So I just get fixated on that.

And I don't know why. I think it's like play a little game with myself. Again, my preoccupation in my life is like how do I try to find meaning in a life that, uh, you know, seems too good for what my expectations were for my life. Okay? And so, like, I think I create these weird little games in order to, like, just get through the day. So, for example, like, I create little problems for myself, you know, having to arrive on certain places at an even number of time. Creating these little, like, you know, what you might call obsessive, like, preoccupations.

But I think I do it to create, like, little challenges in my life, I think in an attempt to just give me some trouble during the day. Oh, that's so interesting. Is it? when I, yeah, I think it is. No, I do think it's interesting. Everyone's little psychological piccadillos when I was young. I never even said this out loud. I used to count the syllables of things I was saying.

Yes, of course. I used to count the syllables. And I would do it on these three fingers. And if I ended on the middle finger, it was a problem. And I needed to construct the next sentence, so it ended on this finger. Yes. Oh, my God, I have that. Not at all.

Not at all. So that's great. I mean, if I could just, I don't want to take your moment, but I do a very similar thing, which is like, I count the syllables of everybody's name. And if they can have a five syllable name, my name is five syllable, Jessica Asperk. Yeah. And like, it's really satisfying for me. Yeah, yeah, it feels like good. Yeah.

You're right. I like these things too. For some reason, in our modern era, it feels self-indulgent to talk about these things. But I feel like maybe we've given it some kind of humorous perspective that allows us to not feel like it's indulgent. I think. And then maybe there are people out there who are like, I also count the syllables of what people are saying. I feel less lonely, Jesse. Okay, you're right. You're right.

We're giving. But I do a real follow-up question. That could paralyze a person. Like if you create too many of those psychological problems throughout the day, but clearly you've been able to compartmentalize. Well, you know what it is? Like, I'm in the arts and I'm like, I guess I consider myself like a freelance artist, which just means you hop from one job to the next.

And I really like staying busy because if I'm not busy, I get preoccupied with this just crazy stuff all day. And so, like, I really like being busy. So tomorrow, because I'm about to do a new movie, we're scouting locations all day. And, like, I know I'm not going to do all those things all day because I'm going to be thinking about the movie and this. And I need to stay busy.

Otherwise, my mind goes a little nutty. Yeah, I get it. Okay. Three more cards. One, two, three. Well, I have this thing. I guess it has to be one, according to. Oh, God.

Has ambition ever led you astray? Whoa. That's such a good question. I mean, yeah, I think about it all the time. Do you? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, in an attempt for me to like stay just busy and active, I sometimes will like push for my things to be done sometimes if they're premature. So like even prematurely,

you know, so like yeah, I've, you know, written stuff that I've performed that like, it's because I wanted to like stay busy and I knew it wasn't like exactly up to what it should be yet. I just want to stay busy. But I will say like the counterpart of that is like I have to do that in order to like um just be able to sustain like i'm not like naturally like an ambitious person for myself but i really am like quite a uh worried person about failing and so it creates like an ambition in me by necessity to like just try to stay busy at all times so i just try to be involved with things all the time i wouldn't exactly call it like you know professional ambition as much as just like i want to be busy all the time so maybe that's pushed me sometimes to like

do things prematurely. Yeah. But I don't have like financial or professional ambitions, you know, that are unrelated to the things I like doing creatively. How have you managed that fear of failure thing? Because that's inevitable. I mean, you've had them, right? I assume. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I've had like far more failures than success. I mean, and my father is a sweet person. He's a teacher and is not like in the arts and has such sweet perspectives on my life. And, you know, so like with this movie a real pain, it's like doing well and everything. And, you know, there's a feeling like inside of me that like this should be the norm and like I'm a failure if this is not the norm. And my dad is, again, so sweet and has kind of a 60,000 foot view or 30,000 foot view, depending on your airline of what this means. And he tells me things like, you know, if you have two of these, like, in your career, that's like a really

successful career to have in, like, the arts, to have, like, let's say, two movies that you make that are regarded this nicely. And so that puts things in perspective, because what it tells me is that this is, like, should not be expected to be the norm. And that kind of puts things in a nice perspective. And then my other friend, Jim, tells me all the time, like, if you want a career in the arts, the success is, like, basically staying active and busy. The successes are not, like, the one or two things that spike. Those are like, great, but those are the things that are like the trusses that help the bridge, you know, stand.

And the bridge is the, God, I went down a metaphor, rabbit hole. But basically, so the, okay, wait, so the projects are Kaysons and the trusses are the cars. No, no, but basically like staying active and busy. Being able to keep doing it. Yeah. Exactly. Being able to keep doing it. Yeah.

This is the last round. Oh, okay. Beliefs. cards are red oh wow yeah one two or three uh caution to the wind one what do you think of that one that's growth wild yeah i know what's a belief you chose to let go of oh wow god god is that your answer actually that's funny um well yeah i mean okay so my relationship with religion is probably very run-of-the-mill, which is that, you know, I grew up with parents who are more religious than I am, and so I'm more secular. This is very, very standard, probably American

practice, especially American Jewish practice, that I grew far more secular than my parents grew, who grew far more secular than their parents, you know. And so that's not unusual. You know, and so, like, I got very comfortable as a young man with, like, basically abandoning all ties to religion. and to beliefs and, you know, higher power, et cetera, all that stuff. And, you know, that my wife's lost her parents, and she started being more curious about going to temple for, like, the ritual of it, and also a feeling of connection to something greater

because she was grieving so much for the loss of her parents. And I, you know, will go to temple with her. And now I, in some ways, like, grieve for the loss of, like, boring communal activities. And so, like, I find in my life, you know, that hedonism is not really pleasurable. Like, and the boring communal activity of going to Temple when I was younger served a purpose. And at the time, you don't know what purpose it's serving because you just want to get the hell out of there. But as an adult, I'm like, yeah, those boring, like communal things, I think are probably serving us as a culture or society in a way that's probably a good thing. It makes us less self-involved.

It makes us able to deal with, you know, boredom, living at our own heads without constantly entertaining ourselves to death, et cetera. And so when I go to Temple with my wife, I'm like really bored. But I feel like it's good for me in some bigger way. It's one thing to think it's good for you. Have you actually afterwards, after you've gone to Temple and you're talking with your wife about it, is she very clear on the effect that it had on her? And are you still struggling to find words to define what just... happened and how it's benefiting you? Wow, that's such an insightful question. And I think the answer

is that my wife and I experience it very differently. She is somebody who appreciates like music and, you know, sensorial things. I'm kind of in my head more. And so she, she appreciates it on many levels and she's singing the songs and she's doing the prayers and then she's tearing up when appropriate, you know, when they're talking about grief and our loved ones and our loss of it. To me, I'm like, in my head to appreciate all that stuff or to engage with it and like a moment's moment level. but I do notice that after I do that stuff, I feel a sense of humility. I'm not an expert in the liturgy or whatever. Maybe that's not even Jewish-related word.

But I just know that me sitting there in a state of like antsy boredomness was correct, was good for me. Because otherwise my life is a series of choices I made. And that I don't know that that's actually healthy, even though it seems like I have total great agency. That is such an interesting answer to that question. Thanks. Yeah, we do need to be uncomfortable and bored sometimes. Yeah. I think you just identified like a spiritual quality to boredom.

Yes, yes, yes, that is. Maybe it's related to humility. And in terms of spirituality, which I think is hard for probably a lot of people connect to, we can understand humility a little better, which means like you're not the center of the world for these moments. And all of your desires are not the kind of relevant. things in this moment. But I don't know. I also live in a bubble because I'm a very lucky person. So I live in a bubble. I imagine for most people in the world, they are experiencing lots of boredom during their days because they have regular jobs. My job is like, hey, can you come and sing and dance on camera and then we're going to put you on a poster? Like, I live in a really weird world that is probably unrelatable. This is the last one. One, two, or three. Oh, you mean, oh, I could have chosen like the same number for each thing? Totally. Totally.

Oh my God. Does that upset you? Like, you could have released. There are three different cards every time. Right. Oh, fascinating. I didn't realize you replaced it. I'm an idiot.

Sorry. No, I should have told you that because then you created like a matrix in your mind to try to get it every question. And now I feel so sad that I made you do those mental gymnastics. No, no, no. You did me a great favor because I needed that matrix to feel the struggle of what life is like. Now I understand what it feels like. I've tasted the soil. Okay, let's do number one.

Okay, number one. What is your best defense against despair? Oh, wow. I mean, I feel rude flipping because, but I'm curious. But I mean, but I feel rude flipping because it's kind of like a personal question. No, they're all personal questions. You can flip it? But can I?

Okay, yeah, totally. Do you mind? Okay. It is. It is appreciation. It's like a really rigorous practice of appreciation. And embedded in that is perspective, I guess. And this sounds really grim, but like, you know, I'm constantly thinking about people who have it worse than I do. Yeah, which seems sad and grim, but it's a sure fire way for me to kick whatever particular pity party I'm having for myself. And I don't want to dismiss all of that.

Like sometimes the despair is real. Like it can be a grief or I'm missing a loved one or just like a psychological sorrow I'm feeling on a particular day. Because, you know, like a lot of us, I have ups and downs. But for me, when despair shows its face, my best defense is to just like open my eyes, just hyper awareness. of all the good. Oh, that's interesting. And that usually kicks me out of it. Right. Yeah, yeah, that's a nice way to think about it.

Wait, flipping implies I also respond though. Okay, no, that's fine. No, that's fine. No, I'm happy to. It's just from everything you're saying, something kind of tangential but also relevant, like, occurs to me, which is that, like, I married a woman who has, like, the same values as me. She,

I mean, she's a far better person. She works in social justice, teaches disability justice and awareness in public schools. And her mom ran a domestic violence shelter for 35 years. And so she comes from this kind of world. But I'm really, as you mentioned, preoccupied with people who have it worse than me. Again, it's what my new movie A Real Pain is about. It's what all my plays have been about. privilege versus struggle and meaning versus emptiness, et cetera.

And the interesting thing that occurs to me, though, is that my wife, she just does something about it. She doesn't like ever, she always just says, okay, so what are you going to do about it? So if I'm like feeling miserable, she's like, okay, so what are you going to do about her? I'm like, what's the action? What happened to my friend? She always was just like, oh, let's call him now and try to get him a job. My friend didn't get a job. He's struggling.

She's like, oh, I know, oh, you know, I can call my friend Lita. She actually knows somebody who just lost their job here. Maybe they can talk. Maybe they can work together. She just, she just, there's not an instinct in her to wallow in it or to like make it about herself. Yes. Yes. So I make it about myself. Oh God, I feel so guilty. She's not even aware that she's doing something different than me. It's just the way she's wired. And so I kind of, I look to her all the time and we've been together forever.

So like I, it's very easy for me to just kind of just ask her. I think it's so lovely that you found each other. It seems like. Oh, I'm lucky. I'm lucky. She's, you know, I'm lucky because I'm not wired for anything good. She's wired to do all this good stuff. That's not true, Jesse. I've known you for an hour, and I don't. You're wired to do nothing good.

No, no, no. I'm a thoughtful person, but it doesn't lead to, like, you know, benevolent action. She's just like, she's less contemplative than me. She's just very active and has a good heart. Although, I do want to end where we started. Ruben Fleischer, your director, said that you were like the kindest person of all time. So, you know. He's judging me against actors. I think you have to qualify that text message. He said, one of the kindest actors. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, you know, the tallest jockey.

You know, it's, you know, it's a low bar in my profession. So we end the show the same way, every time. Okay. With a trip in our memory time machine. Okay. So in the memory time machine. You get to revisit one moment from your past. It is a moment that you wouldn't change anything about. You don't want to change anything. You would just like to linger there a little longer. What moment do you choose? And it could be anything.

Like, it doesn't even have to be a positive thing. Well, it has to be somewhere you want to spend more time in. Mm. Whoa. Whoa. Jesus. Yeah, so like, when I was like 17, I started seeing my Aunt Doris. She was in her 80s.

She died at 106 years old. And so when I was 17, I started seeing her every week. And she was like pretty tough on me. In fact, this movie, A Real Pain, talks about Grandma Dory. That's my aunt Doris who I'm talking about. And for some reason, I like really needed this relationship in some way I couldn't explain. She was like totally unimpressed by me. She would kind of just like, she was tough, you know, just like, all she would do is like complain.

I'm not sitting up straight and, you know, why has my hair looked like that? And I'm living like a child. And she was like really tough on me, but for some reason I needed this thing. And like I miss her so much because, so I would do three hours a day. It was every Thursday. I would clear my schedule, make sure I was available. And so I would, we had these three hours every week. And it was intense.

It was very intense. It would be like, you know, she would constantly redirect the, you know, conversation and the, and the relationship to like self-improvement on like a deeper level. Not like in an emotional like modern day, the way we talk about like self-love. More like you got to stand up straight and you need to make these calls tomorrow. Like just in like a way like stop living like a child. And we were in her darkened apartment eating the same thing, which was carrots, broccoli, black beans and the salad dressing she made. We eat that every Thursday.

I missed those moments so much. They were, they shaped me in like, in every way, even though she didn't realize that the way she was shaping me was not the way she was intending. She was shaping me to kind of like be self-aware and thoughtful and humble. But what she thought she was doing was making me stand up straight. And, you know, anyway, so what she was actually kind of angling towards was maybe something a little different than what I do.

I don't value posture as much as she did. And, yeah, I miss those moments. They were very, you know, they were a big part of my life. And I had so many of those moments. But, God, do I miss that kind of like darkened sanctuary with her? Jesse Eisenberg's new film, A Real Pain, is out now. Jesse, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

If you like this conversation, go back to my episode with Jack Antonoff. He was also a complete open book about his anxieties, including his next. level phobia of germs. You know, you look around, you're at a bus stop, a restaurant, anywhere you are people just touching their nose, touching their eyes. And it's like, this is how it's all happening. And like Jesse Eisenberg, Jack Antonoff also just struck me as someone who is just trying to be a good person in the world. This episode was produced by Romel Wood and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wild Cards executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romteen, our blue.

You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck, and we will be back with more next week. Talk to you then.