Wild Card with Rachel Martin - John C. Reilly

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

From "Step Brothers" to “Chicago,” John C. Reilly imbues every one of his roles with humor, empathy, and heart. In his latest project, a vaudeville stage show called "Mister Romantic," he searches for connection in a disconnected time. He talked to Rachel about his independent childhood on the south side of Chicago, and being open to endless possibilities. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hey everybody, it's Rachel, here to Mark a very special moment in the history of our show. Today, Marks our 100th episode. Woohoo! We couldn't have done it without you. So the goal all along was to give you an intimate view of a human, right, that helps expand your understanding, not just of them, but maybe of yourself. And based on the messages that you've sent us, that is happening and it makes me so happy. Many of you are connecting with the questions in a really deep way and using them to unlock new things about your own friends and family. It has been such a journey from our very first

interview with Jenny Slate to Michelle Obama and Harrison Ford, Oprah, and one of my new favorite episodes, the one we did with comedian Chris Fleming. You've been there supporting us all along, subscribing to the podcast and our YouTube channel and sharing episodes with your friends. The Wildcar team and I cannot thank you enough. Just a heads up, this episode does have some strong language. Is there anything in your life that has felt predestined? I'm the kind of person who really likes to believe in endless possibilities, you know. My wife is much more practical. She'd be like, it's going to rain tomorrow, so we should not plan on kayaking. And I'm like, what do you mean? How do you know it's going to rain tomorrow?

Because the weather forecast says 90% rain tomorrow. I'm like, yeah, but 10%. Like, let's not get rid of the kayaks yet. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is while. Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is John C. Riley. Do you know the mysteries of the human brain?

Do you understand the more metaphysical aspects of life? The echoes that we leave behind, I think, are just undeniable. John C. Riley has range. Whether it's going to comedic extremes with Will Ferrell in stepbrothers, or Talladega Nights, or singing about unquited love as Amos Hart in the musical Chicago. John C. Riley can really do it all. But lots of actors have range, right? What makes him special is that he also has heart. John lays it all out for his audiences. We come for his talent, but we stay for his empathy. All of it shows up in his most personal creative venture yet,

a vaudeville stage show called Mr. Romantic. I'm so very happy to welcome John C. Riley to Wildcard. Hi. Hi. Thanks for having me. First round, memories. Ready? Mm-hmm. One, two, or three?

Two. Two. What does your birth order say about you? Oh, interesting. Well, I come from a family of six. So I'm the fifth of six. Ah. Which kind of makes me a middle kid.

You know, the classic, a lot of actors are middle kids, actually, believe it or not. Is that right? Yeah, it's almost like a cliche among actors because, you know, the older one gets too much attention or the older one gets too much correction. The youngest gets too much, you know, gets spoiled. Freedom. And the middle one's like, hey, what about me? Like, I'm here too. And it kind of creates extroverts, I guess, or something.

Are you very different from your sibling? Yeah, yeah. I'm the only person who's an actor. I'm the only person who's like in the arts. But I do remember being a kid, like my older brother. brothers and older sisters got so much like attention and correction about what they were doing, who they were seeing, the clothes they were wearing. And my younger brother was just kind of swaddled all the time and, you know, like, not spoiled, but like kind of doted on, you know? Yeah. And I actually

felt lucky to be like just sort of left alone. Flying under the radar. Yeah. Because I would do that, like my older brothers would get in a lot of trouble for being juvenile delinquents, but I was a juvenile delinquent too. But because they were getting in so much trouble, it's kind of like people didn't notice what I was doing. So as long as I didn't get brought home by the police, I could kind of operate in, you know, in secret. And I read, I mean, you started doing musicals when you were really little, like musical theater, right? Was that, do you remember the first time you raised your hand and were like, I think this is something I want to do? Yeah, I was eight years old and started to go to the, there's this park near my house that had like programs for kids

after school, woodworking and ballroom dance and drama, or we used to call it drama, because I'm from the south side of Chicago and that's how we used to talk, but I'll be like, Mom, I'm going a drama class and I would go over and there were these people who teach kind of basically improv classes. And I remember this first teacher I had named Jim Morley, uh, what kind of ran the thing at the park and he's like okay everyone the first thing we did was like he was kind of like get us into our bodies and whatever it's getting expressive and he's like everyone lay down on the ground now i want you to imagine you're a piece of bacon in a pan right and the pan is cold right now now i'm gonna turn up the heat and what happens when the bacon starts and everyone's starting to go and i'm looking out of the

room like oh my god i've found my people this is this these are the people i understand who want to pretend to be pieces of bacon. Everyone convulsing like bacon. Yeah, yeah. Or just like complete flights of imagination. You know, like that's what I was into as a kid. I was like already that way, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, musicals taught me how to be an actor. Because, you know, where I grew up on the south side of Chicago there, like, no one was doing Shakespeare or Ibsen or, you know, like people weren't, no one wanted to see like just straight dramatic plays. Everything had to have some music in it, you know? Yeah, yeah. So I did, you know, everything from Brigadoon to the Bells Are Ringing to, you know, just the King and I, Fiddler on the roof, you know. Yeah.

So that was my training ground. And then, you know, you meant, I think you mentioned the musical Chicago that I did on the movie musical. And that, that, so I went to acting school in Chicago. The Goodman School of Drama, it was called then. It's called the theater school at DePaul University now. And when I got there, I was like, okay, no more. more musicals. You're a serious actor now, you know.

I want to be like Robert De Niro and Al Pacino and Gene Hackman, you know. These guys don't do musicals, you know. I'm going to be a serious actor. And then I got, and then, you know, I started acting in movies and stuff and still very interested in music and playing the guitar and singing privately, you know. And then that movie Chicago came along and I realized like, oh my God, like, not only is this worth doing. And not only do serious actors do this, but you have to be very talented to pull this off.

To be someone that can do dramatic work and to do musicals, it takes a certain skill set that not everyone has, you know. And I realize, like, the American musical theater is one of the few original art forms America has. You know, we have jazz, blues, and musical theater, you know, everything else, opera, ballet, you know, all that stuff. Music Hall stuff, that all came from England and Europe, you know. But we created this crazy thing called the musical, the stage musical. And, yeah, so it made me really proud. And it made me realize, like, no, no, this is right in your wheelhouse. And you should do this.

And you shouldn't be embarrassed about it. Like, this is a beautiful way to express yourself as an actor. Next three. One, two, or three. What's an early experience of appreciating beauty? An early experience of appreciating beauty. Well, when I was in seventh grade in Chicago Public School, I went to a boys Catholic high school. But for grammar school, as we called it, I went to a Chicago public school.

And it was, there wasn't a lot of art or arts in the school. You know, we didn't do plays. and we didn't really, you know, we'd kind of have art period or whatever we could just, you know, people, and I remember all my friends thinking like, oh, John's creative, have him draw the picture of the card for the teacher, you know, like, I was like, okay, I just like the attention, you know, yeah, sure, I can do it. And I was actually a terrible artist, you know, I was not good at drawing. I still have about a fourth grade, you know, skill level for drawing. Nailing those stick figures, yeah. But they had this incredible program in Chicago.

They brought this woman once a week to my class in seventh grade from the Art Institute of Chicago. Wow. And she was this beautiful, tall, blonde woman, was really elegant and well-dressed and really kind-hearted. And she taught us about Mondrian and Picasso and all of the thinking that went behind the art. You know, like, why did they start doing it? What is this impressionistic paint? Why did someone decide to paint like this? Is it because they were squinting when they were looking at it?

You know, like, or whatever. And we discuss it. And then we'd each do, now, each of you are going to do your own Mondrian, you know? And we'd sort of copy in our own way what the painting was like. But it was the first time I realized, like, you know, art is important. And that woman was like a messenger from another universe. Really? Like, living in a working class neighborhood on the south side of Chicago,

Someone like that, just drifting in from the Art Institute to tell you that art is important. And this is why it's important. And this is what it means. Like, it was really the first moment where I was like, whoa, oh, my God. Like this is what I care about. I don't care about geometry. I care about this. Or actually, you know, you could learn a lot about geometry through art.

And my teacher of that class actually was a really great guy, too, named Mr. Brandstetter. And Mr. Ransetter wore a tie every day. He wore a shirt with cuffs every day with beautiful cuff links. And he was very kind of like courtly and like, anyway, he was this incredible, incredible guy. And the best teacher I had from kindergarten to eighth grade by far. You know, because all the rest of them kind of like, they were just trying to figure out what to do with me. What is what are we going to do with this kid? And I ended up being sent out in the hall a lot or sent to the principal or like,

I was just considered like a discipline problem, you know, like, but Mr. Branstetter just saw him like, no, this is someone who has potential, you know, like I just have to find the right way to talk about things to get them interested in it. Okay. Three more. One, two, or three. One. One.

What period of your life do you often daydream about? I daydream a lot. Do you? Yeah. I have a very good memory. So I remember, I think about my childhood a lot. I tell stories about my childhood a lot. And I lived in a very, that neighborhood I'm describing was a really crazy neighborhood.

First of all, it's one of the most racially intense places in the whole world in the late 1970s. You know, black and white, like the neo-Nazi thing started in Chicago in my neighborhood. So it was this intense place. And then every family had five, six, seven, eight kids. And so the streets were just full of these wild hooligans, you know, like I was one of them. But I was a little more sensitive than most people. So it was kind of a jungle out there. But as a result, you have all these incredible stories, you know, all these capers that happened or these things that my brothers did.

Or like, so, you know, when it came time, I remember when it came time to write Stepbrothers with Will Ferrell and Adam McKay, almost all the things that happened to my character in that movie happened to me when I was like a kid. And so our writing process for that movie was just mining stories. And there's just so many from my childhood that I remember. Like, it wasn't the kindest place to grow up, I don't think. But I had a lot of freedom, a lot of freedom. You know, like I could just kind of, I remember where I grew up in my neighborhood in Chicago, I had 35 first cousins within a 10-block area of where I lived.

So I would leave the house in the summertime anyway. I would leave the house at like 9 in the morning and go find my cousin Mike. And then we would just wander around the neighborhood all day long until 10 o'clock at night and come home. And my mom would be like, where have you been? I was like, I don't know, I was her grandmas. And then I was at Aunt Lillian's. And then if I got hungry, I would stop in and have some toast with grandma. I mean, you know, like, that was my day, every day.

So I had a very independent life, you know. Yeah. We would get a, I remember getting on the bus with my friends. We would get on a bus and buy like a transfer, it was called, this piece of paper, which you could get one best and get on another bus, and they'd punch it or whatever. And we'd go, we'd take the bus from my neighbor and on the south side all the way to downtown Chicago. Just, and I was like 11, 12 years old.

And we'd just wander around downtown Chicago by ourselves. I mean, it was just like laugh at it. now. Yeah. We'd go into the John Hancock Center, which was this huge building, the tallest building in the world of the time, I think. And we didn't have money to take the tour

to go up to the observation deck, but you could get on the elevator. And we'd go to this elevator to the like 100th floor of this building. And then I remembered just riding that. They'd get to the top and they'd be like, where are your tickets? Like, oh, my mom forgot them. And then we'd go back down.

But then when the elevator was going down, we'd leap into the air. So you'd be like free, free fall for a second, like on this super high speed elevator. Anyway, yeah. That's a good time. Yeah, yeah. I had a pretty wild childhood compared to the way, I don't know if the world is more dangerous or we're just more careful, but it's a different world for kids now.

Both, yeah. Before we start round two, let's pull back from the game and talk about your creative life, which is a very full creative life. But I want to start with Mr. Romantic, because this is such a lovely. thing you made. This is a this is a throwback, stage show, vaudeville, very personal to you. How did it come to be? You've been doing it for a few years now, we should say that.

Yeah, we're doing it for about four years now. We've grown it really slowly. We started doing it really only in one place in Los Angeles. Now we've done it all over the world, but almost all out of the world, out of the country anyway. So I did that movie Chicago, which we talked about a little bit earlier, and I played this character, Mr. Sellefane. I got so much attention for that role. I was nominated for an Oscar.

I rediscovered my love of the American musical. I realized, like, I'm really, I think I'm really good at this kind of performing, and I should do this more. Like, you know. Like stage, on a stage with an audience. And music. Reaching out to the audience, like, trying to connect directly with the audience, you know, like, as opposed to, you know, acting, dramatic acting can be a little bit like, you hold back a little bit and you make them come to you. You know, like, when you're Mr. Celophane, your heart is on your sleeve, you know.

You're like, you're out there and music has this incredible way of connecting with audiences where you kind of skip people's brains. You just go straight into their heart, you know? If you can move someone and there's something about the alchemy of music, it's not just the words that you sing in a song, but the arrangement of the notes themselves, you go from an A to a C to an F to back to the A. it means something to human beings. When they hear that, it affects them in this other way that we don't even really understand. Maybe it has to do with our memories of music we've heard in the past, or maybe it's just some kind of vibrational thing that human beings react to. Why do we still remember Amazing Grace?

You know, there's just something about the arrangement of those notes. You know, what is it that keeps the song alive over all this time? So, anyway, I'm digressing a bit. I feel that. I have to tell you, I do. feel that with that song, Mr. Sellefane. We should just say for people who haven't seen Chicago, Amos Hart is this character. He's just unrequited love. He loves Roxy. She doesn't love him back. And he feels like he's not seen by the world. And so this song, Mr. Sellefane, it is just,

it is heart-braining. He's one of the most heartbreaking performances I've ever seen. I love that performance. Thank you. I was in the hands of some great songwriters, the guys who wrote that show. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's a song about being seen or not being seen. There is such vulnerability. And I thought, wouldn't it be great to go on tour as Mr. Salafane?

You know, like, and I thought, well, he has like one and a half songs. That's going to be a short show. So I should start collecting songs that would fit in that character's voice. And I remember one of the first ones I heard was the Irving Berlin song, What Will I Do? And that's on the album. I came out with an album from the song for Mr. Romantic last year. Last year. Yeah.

And I collected that one. Oh, that's a good one. All right. Now I've got two. You know, even though we don't do Mr. Celophane in the Mr. Romantic show. And it took me something like 25 years of collecting songs and thinking back, I got to do that Mr. Romantic thing. I've got to do it.

I've got to do it. And then one day I had finished this big job that I was stuck on for a long time, much longer than I ever thought it would be because of COVID. I was on this TV show for like four years or something. It was supposed to be two years. Anyway, I was really anxious to like, number one, feel free on stage again and just feel like I can say whatever I want. I can sing the songs I want to sing.

I can connect to the audience in the way that I want to. I can improvise. But also, what can I do about the way things are right now? And I became increasingly alarmed over the years that, like, the lack of empathy in our culture and this kind of snarky attitude that developed, like, been there, done that. Like, so the internet has really done a number on us all in that way. Like, and I thought, like, we're really losing our way. Like, why don't people understand, like, other people have value just for being a human

being? You know, like, we're really losing our humanity here. And what can I do about that? Like, I've never been great at, like, picket signs. And, you know, I know how to be an actor. Like, that's the one thing. thing that I committed to in my whole life. And I thought, well, I'll put together a show that's about loving. That's about being loved or wishing you were in love or trying to find someone to

love. I'm going to sing all these love songs. And that's the kind of message of the show. He's this kind of mythical character comes out of a steamer trunk at the beginning of the show and says, I don't know what happened before. All I know is that I have to stay in that box. And when I come out of the box, I have to put on a show. And I don't have to go back into the box if I can find one person who will love me forever. And so, in between the songs, I go out and I meet people. Yeah, I meet men and women and whatever. And I say, I'm not gay or straight. I'm desperate. I have to find someone, you know. And what it does, what the show does, and I got to tell you, I'm not bragging when I say this because it's just a fact.

The show works 100% of the time. It's incredible the need out there for people to feel like, oh, we're just going to talk about love for 90 minutes. We're just going to assume the best of each other. And we're going to try to help this guy find love. Like, and the show... So when you say it works, what does that mean? It works.

It works and it's not like, you don't see people sitting back and like, all right, whatever. Because I talk to people. I'm out there. And what it does, when I say this, this is my mission to see you and to try to fall in love with one of you, it suddenly brings everyone into the same place together. Like, we have these 90 minutes together. Yeah. And it really, really works.

The audience really, really loves it. And I hope it moves the needle, like, whatever, 500, 600 people at a time. But it's given my life meaning. You know, I don't need to, I don't need to. I don't need to make any more money or get more famous or, you know, like, I just decided, like, what can I do with my time that I think gives back to the world, which has given me so much, you know, audiences have given me so much. They've given me a life, you know? So what can I give back and, like, how can I make this all mean something to me?

You know, like, because you play characters as an actor and, like, sometimes it's really meaningful. and sometimes you're just kind of imagining yourself to be another person. But there's a depth to the connection that happens in this show that is undeniably meaningful. Yeah. So can I ask something selfish then? If we were at the show and you identified me as a person that you were going to sing to, what would you sing to me? What would you depend on our interaction?

Because all that's improvised. The whole show is almost. Other than the songs, the whole show is improvised. I go out and I'm like, hi, what's your name? You say your name? Oh, I'm Rachel. Hi, Rachel. That's a beautiful sweater.

Thank you for you. And I see you, right? And you would think, like, you know, at first, the first couple of people I talk to, they're like, okay, what is this guy going to do? Is this like Don Rickles? Is he going to make fun of me? Is he going to, you know, am I safe here? You know, but over time, they start to realize, like, no, he just wants to see the best in me.

He's trying to, like, get closer to me, you know? So, and they just open up. I swear to God, it's like open sesame. When you do that to someone, when you say, like, you know, I'm not even a person. I'm Mr. Romantic. I'm this mythical character, and I'm trying to see you, you know, like, what happens is people just go, oh, you see me. And I talk to old ladies, and I talk to big, burly men, and I talk to, like, effeminate, young. men and I talked, you know, the beautiful women, like all these different people. Like,

but each of them really feels like you're really seeing me, you know? It's a universal longing. Yeah, sincerity is not, yeah. Went out of fashion there for a while, but people really still love it. They love it. Oh no, man. This is my whole currency with this show. This is the whole ball of wax. Ernest, sincerity, love. I'm here for all of it. I'm here for all of it. We're back in the game. Round two, insights. Cards are blue.

One, two, or three? Two. Insights. Insights? Insights. Yeah. Your insights about yourself. When has envy been a problem for you?

You know, I wish I could say it's never been a problem because I really don't find it to be a very noble attribute, envy. But if I'm honest, there were weird periods of my life as an actor where I thought, you know, know, I made the mistake of comparing myself to another person's path. And we're all on a unique path. And I suddenly, you know, after, it was a few years of this, you know, someone I knew very well and someone I loved a lot, you know. And someone whose work I really respected, but it was driving me crazy that I wasn't on the same path as him. Like, why did he get that? I didn't, you know, like, it makes, like, it makes me.

to be cringe to even admit this to you, but it's true. You know, like, it's true. Oh, no, I can't. There were these small-minded moments, you know. And then finally, like, I kind of emancipated myself from this thing by realizing, like, he will never be me, and I will never be him. And the only person I'm racing with is myself, you know, racing with my own optimism or my own belief in myself. You know, like, even if I had that guy's path, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done it the way he did it, you know? No, you wouldn't. You wouldn't. It would all be different. You know what else really kind of absolved me of some of this too was, was being on the other side of the casting table,

you know, getting larger roles in movies and being part of the casting of the movie. Where you're trying to find, oh, now we're trying to find someone to have the power, to play your wife, or trying to find someone to play this part or whatever. And so you see them come in and you think like, oh my God, I know how it feels to be. that person where you think they're judging you. Yeah, right. Like, you're something bad about what you're doing. But there's so many other things going into the decisions that don't have anything to do with your particular talent.

It's almost like they're mining for gold. It's not that, you know, they're just looking for something. It's got nothing to do with you in a way. It's just like they have an idea what they're looking for. And if you match that idea, then you get the part. And if you don't match the idea, it doesn't mean that you're bad. It doesn't mean that you did something wrong. It doesn't mean that your intrinsic qualities are wrong or not good for acting.

They're just different than what these people were hoping to find. I want to say, anyone watching this, if you're feeling envious, figure out a way out of it because it will eat you alive. And it will actually slow you down. If you're worried about the race and you think someone else is ahead of you in the race, having envy for that person will only make you go slower because it makes you less. creative and it makes you more angry and it makes you more internal, you know, like, free yourself, love that person. And you're trying to mimic them to something. If you've seized on what you think is one version of success that you're fixated on, and then you're not paying

attention to what you creatively have to offer. Yeah, yeah. And when you look like me, you know what I mean? I don't look like a movie star, you know what I mean? I don't look like a matinee idol, you know, you know, and the temptation you could say like, well, who the hell am I, I'm this kind of homely looking, whatever, or this, whatever, you want to call me. I don't feel like I'm homely, but I don't look like Brad Pitt. You know, I don't look like Tom Cruise. But what the challenge is to understand your value, like your uniqueness is your value. You know, the fact that I don't look like Brad Pitt actually is a good thing.

It gives me value, you know. It gives me something to set my, it sets me apart. Yeah, differentiates you. And that's true, not just for actors, but for every thing. Everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Next three, one, two, or three?

Three. Three. What emotion do you understand better than the others? I think I understand empathy more than the others. Yeah? Yeah. I'm a Gemini. I'm an actor.

I'm someone who's my whole life has spent trying to imagine what it's like to be in someone else's shoes, you know? Yeah, to be someone else. So I understand, like, I can sit in a room and, like, and I can feel, it's a little bit of a burden sometimes, honestly, because you feel like, I almost wish, like, sometimes I could move more conceited and more oblivious to whatever, because I've seen very successful people sometimes who are just like, eye in the prize, you know, like. Right. Or just be able to compartmentalize. But I look around a room and I'm like, oh, she's feeling like that. He's feeling like that. Oh. Oh, he thinks no one's noticing him.

You know, like, I can feel it. So, I don't know. Maybe that's true. I suppose it's a question for other people, really, who know me well to answer. But I think I understand empathy more than other emotions. But your job as an actor is also to understand all the emotions. You've got to get yourself angry. You've got to find a place to tap into anger.

You know, if you've got to feel, like, lustful or whatever. You got to find your way to it, you know? I heard you once say in, like, an interview situation that when Will Ferrell's, when Will Ferrell swears, like, says curse words, it's like always funny. Yeah. And when you try to do it, it always seems angry. Right away, it sounds violent, like, that guy's going to hit me. Yeah. I don't know if I buy that.

Do you feel, you also must understand anger because it's projecting in some theatrical way. Oh, yeah. You know, like, yeah, and language is power. Like, I don't know how it is Will does that. Will is just inherently such a really, really kind-hearted, nice person that it's almost like, it doesn't make any sense when Will swears a blue streak, you know? And it just, I'm telling you, it gets funnier and funnier and funnier. The more foul his languages, the funnier it gets.

But me, I say fuck one time, and it sounds like, you know, I'm going to get enough fight or something. Anyway, Will is one of the all-time great artists I've ever worked with. He's someone who can make things funny. I don't even know. I'm not sure he knows to tell you the truth. You can just say a simple phrase and make it funny. Like, I know how to be sincere. Like, I don't really consider myself a comedian.

Even though I do funny work and people laugh at things that I do, I consider myself like an actor. first and I understand how to be sincere and connect with people. But just to make anything funny, that's like a really special skill that I think you're born with. Yeah. Last one in this round. One, two, or three. Three. Three. What's a quality you're drawn to that you don't possess? I'm going to, you know, I haven't done this yet. I'm going to turn this one back on you, Rachel. clip. I have, I think I've said this before. It's just so clear an answer for me. Like, I am attracted to people who, um, who like to host, who like more people in their house,

you know, like, my door is always open. Come over any time, drop by. And like, I'm bringing six kids. Great. I love it. Bring them all. mold, we just, all of a sudden, like, the fishes and the loaves turns into, like, 45, like, Jesus has done a miracle. There's food for everyone. And I'm not that person. I'm, like, the opposite of that person. I get very nervous about hosting people.

I don't think I'm very good at it. It just makes me anxious, and I'm not relaxed. I'm not relaxed in it. And so, and I've always liked to control certain things. Like, I like to be the person who goes to the party, have a good time, and then I can leave. But like if you're hosting, and what if people just keep staying at your house? Could be worse. Could be worse. Many things could be worse. If they left early because they thought I was boring. But I like an

early bedtime and I like to leave a party and I love people who have an expansive social life. You love it enough, you love it, but you don't love it enough to want to actually be like it. Yeah. But I try. And it just doesn't, I don't think it's a good time. for anyone. Like, I don't think, I don't think me trying to host is enjoyable because, I don't know, I should just let go, let go of the responsibility, you know, you just provide the opportunity, and then what happens is what happens, you know, just what does everyone want to happen now? That's what happens, you know, like, it's not on you just because you're hosting, you know, you're just providing the platform for it. Yeah. But I think, I think maybe most people are uncomfortable

being host, but you push through because it's important to bring people together. It's important. That's important. I know. So you push past the uncomfortable part because it's important enough to do. So I hear you saying that your answer to that question is somewhat similar. God, I thought I got – I forgot the rules, so I thought I got away with it. Just like, make her say that.

I thought – what am I – What's a quality you don't possess, but you appreciate it in other people? Oh. you know, paperwork. You know, that kind of organized lists, calendars, and that kind of thing. Like, I just keep everything in my head all the time. Like, you know, and I just go, I'm very instinctual with, like, how I order things in my head. But my wife is an incredible organizer, producer, you know, like, who can, like, make a bullet list.

And, like, no, we can do that. We took that up, take that off. I just like, in fact, the one time I realized that my wife really loved me, it was long after we were married. I got audited by the IRS once, and I was like, I had no receipts. I had to create this whole fake, like, whatever. I had to go back and try to. Fake, John. Not fake.

No, not fake. But, like, I had to remember why I rented that movie. Like literally every movie that I ever rented, why did I rent that movie and what were the tax purposes of renting that movie for the research on that project? I was just like in hell, in hell, with papers and all this stuff around trying to like form a timeline for when I did this or that. And my wife sat down with me and she's like, all right, let's do this. Here we go. This is what we're going to do. This.

She's making decisions. She's making piles. She's making lists. And I looked at it. I was like, you really love me. You really do love me. This is after like 12 years of marriage or something, by the way. Yeah, man.

That is love. We've been married for 34 years now. Wow. Congratulations. I hope you haven't had to go through another audit. Not so far. And, yeah, and it turns out that audit was a no change. They're like, okay, fair enough.

You got the wrong guy. Okay. Last round, beliefs. One, two, or three. One. One. Is there anything in your life that has felt predestined? You know, it would be very romantic to say that when I met my wife, it was predestined.

But honestly, I think things happen and then we react to them. And we create our destiny, I think. I don't, I don't, I'm not some, I like to, I'm the kind of person who really likes to believe in endless possibilities. You know, my wife is much more practical. She'd be like, it's going to rain tomorrow, so we should not plan on kayaking. And I'm like, what do you mean? How do you know it's going to rain tomorrow? Because the weather forecast says 90% rain tomorrow.

I'm like, yeah, but 10%. Like, let's not get rid of the kayaks yet. We could. And so that's the place I live in. Just like constantly, and she lives in a much more realistic place. But, yeah. So I don't like to believe that. anything is predetermined. I like to think like, you know, life is a series of choices.

And then all of a sudden it looks like, oh, that was meant to be. But it usually doesn't feel like that until after it's already happened in my experience. Three new cards. One, two, or three. It's like Uno for adults. Two. That's right. Do you think there's any part of us that lives on after we die? Yes. You do. For sure. Yeah, because, you know, I think I'm not so, I'm not so confident that I know. Do you know the mysteries of the human brain? Do you know? I a thousand percent do not. Yeah. So do you understand the more metaphysical aspects of life? Do you understand? I like to think about it, but I don't know. I don't have certainty about any of it. Yeah. So. And I'm willing.

wary of people who do. Yeah. Well, so my father died. My father died when I was 28 years old, you know, relatively young. But I think about my father every single day. I'm 60 years old now. I think about my father every single day. Now, there's something, the echoes that we leave behind, I think, just undeniable, you know.

And there's all kinds of near death. people that have witnessed deaths that there's all kinds of stuff people say that points to the mystery you know like I think like the night that my father died I was off doing a film I was in the other side of the country I was laying in bed and I had a dream in the dream I was laying in like a rooming house I was with my wife in a bed and we'd come in late into this rooming house and it was dark. And they were like, yes, there's a bed, but it's in the common room upstairs. Be quiet because everyone else is sleeping.

So we went up there. We got into this bed and there's all these other beds in this room, this big wooden room. And we lay there and like, oh, man, it's so late. We're so tired. I just try to have to, I just have to fall asleep. And all of a sudden, I hear rustling in the room. People are getting up. I'm like, oh, my God, we got in here so late that now all these other people are waking up.

And now I'm trying to go to sleep. and I was kind of annoyed. And I was like, just keep your eyes closed. Don't open your eyes. Just keep your eyes closed. And eventually, I could feel people right next to our bed, like going by. And I was like, what is going on? And I opened my eyes.

And right in front of me was my father. And he was standing in this line of people. And the line was slowly moving like this. They were going on a door. And I was looking. And I remember like, oh, my God, that's my dad. And I was staring at his face. and somehow I knew this is my last glimpse of him.

Look at him, look at him now. Remember what his face looks like, you know? And then he kept moving, he kept moving. And then the phone rang and woke me up from my sleep. And my wife came into the room and said, It's your sister and hand me the phone. She said, Dad just went. You know, like, what are the odds?

My dad was very ill, but it wasn't like death watch, you know. It wasn't like, you know, he was not doing well, but it was nobody, no one was saying, get back to Chicago, he's going to go. You know, it was just. And then the same night, my sister had a dream about my dad packing up his boat in Florida and going to go ready to go to, and she was laying same things. She saw him outside the house getting ready to go on this voyage. And my aunt had another dream of departing somehow, like all three of us in different places

in the world. Yeah. You know, like, that's metaphysical. That's not just, I wasn't having dreams like that every night. I had that dream one time that night. So who are we to say, with certainty, there is nothing left of us afterwards? You know, there's, I don't know, like, human beings are electrical beings, right? We're powered by electricity, a heart, the impulse of a heart is an electrical organ, right?

that electricity is, it's a field of energy, you know. Yeah. It doesn't, I don't think it just disappears. Like, that's my guess. Anyway. That's an incredible story, John. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and you could talk to anyone.

I'm sure, like, I could bring five people in here just randomly, and they would all tell you something like that. I've had, I mean, I had dreams of my mom that were very, but it was after she died. And my father, they've both passed now. And there was a period of time right after they died when they felt very present in my consciousness. But I didn't have dreams that really – I mean, you were portending your dad's death. I mean, you saw it before an accident. He was exiting and saying goodbye or whatever, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. So, yeah, you are open. You are open to the possibility of things. Yeah. Endless possibility. Even though if it says 90% rain tomorrow, you never know.

Weather's like that. Last question. One, two, or three. Two. What's your best defense against despair? Oh. You know, I really wish I knew. Because I struggle with depression, like actual depression, not just feeling sad, but like,

why do I feel this way? Why do I feel like I'm about to cry, but I'm not crying? Why can't I think of anything to do today? why do I just want to sit here and, you know, like, so the antidote to despair, well, actually, you know, on a personal level, I'm not sure I have the antidote to despair, other than connection with other people. That seems to, like, turn the tide eventually, even if you don't feel like it, connecting somehow with someone outside of your brain. But, you know, to go back to me, Mr. Romantic, the show, that show was born of both joy and despair.

You know, like, I was despairing for what was happening in the world, you know, like, and that was my answer. Like, that was the antidote, was connection, you know, like. And so when I do that show, like, people ask me, like, oh, does anyone ever, like, not cooperate when you talk to them? I'm like, no, they don't, you know, like, don't you get thrown off sometimes when someone says this or says that? It's like, no, because everything that happens, even if it's an uncomfortable interaction, even if it's not what you're expected, even if it's awkward for a second, it's a chance to connect, you know, to come together for some reason.

Yeah, so I think that might be the antidote to despair is connection because when I think of despair, I think of isolation and being alone and feeling hopeless and, you know, feeling like I'll never escape. But when you reach out, I talked about my wife a little bit earlier, but she's also someone who's just like indefatigably optimistic. You know, she's the kind of person who gets up like, well, I might not be feeling so great either today, but let's go. We've got to do this. We're going to do that.

You know, like, and that's someone who's like on a regular basis brings me out of despair, just by example, you know, like, well, I should just start doing it. something, you know, like I should try to connect. Yeah. But connection, I think, is the institute for despair. John C. Riley, we end our show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. All right. Okay. In the memory time machine, you revisit one moment from your past.

It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose? Well, I don't know if this is going to be. be a specific moment. It's not a specific moment. I'll just say that. It's time with my parents, you know. If I could have, if I could extend that, I would extend that. Because my father died when he was 59 and my mother died in her early 70s and I think like, I'm older than my father was when he passed away now. And the other day I was looking in the mirror and I was thinking like,

wow, this guy that you think about every day that you've looked up to for so long, that was the voice of wisdom and seniority in your life, that guy in the mirror is older than that guy. Yeah. And that was an intense moment for me, you know, because some part of you, like, I don't know if you feel this way, but like when my dad died at that age, I thought, like, well, that's the example. And now I'm like, I'm kind of in the gravy period, you know. I got past that moment, like, wow, aren't I lucky, you know. But, yeah, if I could extend it, I would love to see my dad. I would love to, I was still somewhat of a boy, I would say, when my dad died. And that was one of the gifts of my dad dying, was that, you know, the king is dead.

Long live the king. Like, I realized, like, I can really be the man I want to be. Like, I'm not comparing myself to him. I'm not asking him for his approval. He's not here, you know, like. But I... Whatever you want in your mind. I find myself thinking like, I really wish, you know,

I had a really beautiful, loving relationship with my mom. My relationship with my dad was more formal. He was just a more kind of patriarchal character. Yeah. But... And so I would love more time with both of them, but especially my dad because I would love to have gotten past... Because I know what I'm like now this age, you know, like I'm not admitting weakness.

I'm not admitting the decay of my body. I'm still the, you know, the bad motherfucker ever was, you know, like. And my dad was that when he died, you know. And I would have loved to see my dad mellow into the humility of old age with me and see him, you know. Because what happens is my mother-in-law is 88 and her partner is 84. And so I do have people of those ages in my life and like, wow, what a humbling thing. What a beautiful thing to watch someone in a way kind of return to a childlike state. You know, that is what happens when we get that old, you know.

And it would have been a beautiful thing to see my dad become someone that I was in charge of caring for. May I ask, is there a specific, like, where are you? What is the scene? have to give me a specific moment, but where do you place him in your mind's eye when you remember him? What's he doing? He was on a boat. On a boat? Yeah, my dad loved boats.

He loved to fish on the Great Lakes, in the Midwest, and down in Florida, where he eventually went when he was older. But, yeah, that was where my dad felt most free. And I sail now, you know, so that is, I have that similar feeling. I don't like to fish. I don't, if I need fish, I go to the store, you know, like, but I love to be on water and feel that separation from Earth, you know, it just feels like you're kind of untethered for a moment and you're part of some larger thing when you're out there on the water. And I know that my dad felt that freedom. So, yeah, when I imagined him, that was his happy place, you know.

Yeah. John C. Riley, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, likewise. You can see John in his stage show Mr. Romantic, and you can hear him on his album, What's Not to Love? Thank you. It has been so fun to talk with you. If you'd like this episode, go back and check out my conversation with Tim Blake Nelson. Tim has also had a wide-ranging career as a character actor.

He's always searching for creative truth, and that shows up in his ability to embody characters with humor and empathy. This episode was produced by Mitra Arthur and Summer Tomad. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Joseph. theme Nia Nye. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni, and our theme music is by Romteen Arablewee. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We will shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.