Wild Card with Rachel Martin - John Leguizamo

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

A note from Wild Card host Rachel Martin: “Being so vulnerable was really difficult,” John Leguizamo says of his role as Eumaeus in The Odyssey. It’s an opportunity he relishes, though, having come up in a Hollywood that wasn’t interested in casting Latin actors in any roles besides drug dealers. John talks to Rachel about finding his way as a troubled kid and finding the freedom to tell the stories he wants to in the theater.Watch this interview and many more on the Wild Card YouTube page. Support public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

What emotion do you understand better than all the others? Oh, wow. I mean, anger is easy, easy emotion for me. And I guess all my heroes were always, you know, Pacino is always tough and angry. And De Niro is always tough and angry, you know what I mean? So I guess it's just an easier emotion for men to act. I don't know. And you yourself?

Are you an angry guy? No, I'm not an angry person. I'm not an angry person. I'm a complainer, a whiner. and neurotic. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card. The show where cards control the conversation. If forced to come up with one word to describe John Leguizamo, I would say urgency.

It doesn't matter if he's playing an ambitious gangster in the film Carlito's Way, a version of himself in his one-man Broadway plays, or a sloth in the Ice Stage movies. There's often a restlessness in his characters. Yeah, even the sloth. They're trying to change their life or change the world, and all of it. needs to happen now. I think that might be true of John Leguizama himself. He spent his career pushing Hollywood to tell Latin stories and to center Latin voices that seems in a sense of urgency. He's out with a new children's book also about representation. It's called Kiki and the Can.

And I am so delighted to welcome John Leguizamo to Wildcard. Hi. What a pleasure. What a great intro. Wow. I was like, I was being therapist. I love it. Round one. First three cards you pick randomly, John. One, two, or three. I'm going to go with three. Three. I don't know why, but yes.

You're feeling three. Well, the magic three's, everything's in three. That's true. When you were bored as a kid, where would your imagination take you? Oh, wow. What a great question. Because I was bored a lot. Were you?

Yeah, because, come on. It was the era. We didn't have the phone. I know. You didn't have all that nonsense. Or kids don't even know how to be bored anymore. Yeah. Boring is important to be bored because that's where your imagination takes over.

In my mind would daydream like crazy. I would dream about being in movies, being friends with Martin and Lewis and Avedon and Costello. Really? Yeah, yeah. We played a lot of ghetto games. We did play a lot of stoop ball, a lot of Johnny Rider Pony where you jump on somebody's back and you bashed their head against the wall. I mean, they were ghetto games.

Dude, that sounds insane. I told you to a ghetto games. That's tough. They prepared. This is in New York. We should say, this is in New York. You're life-on New Yorker. Yeah, yeah.

Not that that excuses it. I don't know about the beatings. I mean, we loved it. We were used to it. I mean, WolfTack was even more violent. That's where you played tag and you divide into two groups and you can fight your way out of being caught. But it prepared you for the neighborhood. It prepared you for life.

But you couldn't use, you couldn't use. You couldn't use like a closed fist. Yeah, you could. Yes, you could. Okay. Yeah, yeah. It was New York City. It was tough.

It was the 70s. What do you want me to do? When you think about those times, though, that was like, it sounds like it was a lovely time. Like your imagination was allowed to kind of flourish and you were free. Absolutely. I mean, we spent hours my friends and I talking, telling stories, goofing. You know, you stayed out until your mom said the lampposts go on.

you better come home for dinner. Although my mother said, when those lamp posts going on, you better come home for dinner because if you're not there, you're going to have a coquettazzo that you're going to manda to caro. And the lamp post really

worthy indicator. Yeah, yeah, that was it. I love that. I was better run home. Okay. Next card. One, two, or three. Let's do one.

Let's go with one. What's something your parents taught you to love? Well, I guess the education, reading was a big deal. constantly said that that was the most important thing, was reading and education. That was the only thing that was the great equalizer, the great opportunity, the great American dream, the immigrants dream for their kids. Do they have a lot of formal education?

You know, they acquired a lot of formal education as when they came here. You know, both my parents, my mom got a master's here at Pace University and my dad got a master's to an accounting. my mother in business. Yeah, they got it here in America. So, yeah. And, you know, my father would always stock the library with all these books, you know, that he'd see on infomercials on TV. He never read them, but they looked erudite, you know.

He never cracked them open. But I read them all. Did they put a lot of pressure on you to get an education? Like, this was going to be the thing. This is why they came to this country. This is what you need to do. This is going to be your stepstool up to success. Yeah, you know, they tried, but I was a really obstinate.

I was a problem child. The picture, yeah, I was a troubled, troubled kid, you know, black sheep of the family. I wasn't supposed to make it because I was just, I was just wild. I was a wild kid trying to, I don't know, work out my demons or whatever. But I had a lot of fun doing it. Yeah. But then I was failing out of high school and got into trouble with the law a little bit. And then my parents saved me.

and they shipped me to Columbia, and I had to live there for two years, and they took me away from the neighborhood, moved away, and changed all my friends, changed my life, changed the school. And then, yeah, it was like early, what do they call that, when they send you into the woods, that program.

Outward bound? Yeah, outward bound. That was like outward, outward, found, but broke ass, outward bound. Can I ask what you got in trouble for? I mean, there was silly things. I mean, you know, truancy, breaking into a subway car, things like that. Yeah.

But it was enough that your parents were like, we're sick of this BS? Yeah, we didn't come to this country for you to be worse than us. But you, what, earned your way back? Like, what was, what did you have to achieve? What did you have to prove in order to get a plane ticket back home to New York? I think my parents just, I think my family that was housing me got tired of the, of having to house me. So they sent me back. But my parents had already moved and had already found another school and had changed whole lives.

And I mean, it worked in a lot of ways because I didn't, I couldn't really, at that age, it's really hard to reconnect with friends when you move geographically. It's really difficult in schools. Yeah, for sure. So I think in a way, in a way, it saved me. But then I found the next phase of my life, which was even, it wasn't as hard, but I was a troublemaker in high school. Like, I needed a lot of attention and I needed to make people laugh. And so I was constantly disruptive in class. And a math teacher, Mr. Zufa said, Mr. Zoufizzo, Mr. Zoum, you have the attention span of a sperm.

You know, if we can make penicillin and have moldy bread, we can do something with you. Please use your comedy for good. Why don't you become a comedian? And that was, you know, teachers and mentors are so important. People don't understand that they can really shape a young person's life. And it was really important for me. So how do parents feel about, I mean, as parents who were like, getting education is what we came for this country before.

When you announced to them that, hey, my teacher said I'm really funny and talented. And maybe this should be my thing. How'd that go over? Did not go over well. Did not go over well? They were like, you know, you're going to F up. everything if you do that. You need to like stop that, just go to college and get a real career and something. But I was really stubborn and obstinate. And, you know, I think that's what happens

to a lot of immigrant families is the, because the parents don't speak English as well as you, you feel a little and you have to help them out with so much stuff. You start feeling like you're more important than they are. You start feeling like you're the parent. So that was great from me because as the first born, I started to feel like I'm the one who's going to call the shots. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I went after acting.

I went after what I wanted. And I'm glad I did because that's really was my path in life. Right. A lot of that, though, is trusting your gut at a young age. I mean, it does, it helps you have the validation of, of a teacher or someone who sees something. Absolutely, the mentors. But really, it's a crazy business. Like, it's an insane business, right?

It's so fickle. It doesn't matter your talent, like, so much. much of it is just like the stars aligning. And you do have to have this almost delusional belief in yourself. Yeah, yeah. You have to have a pacaderm skin. I mean, you have to have like rhino thick skin. You have to be not not be afraid of rejection. You can't be rejection phobic. You can't. You're going to be rejected 99% of the time. But I, you know, I was foolproof. I was, because to me, I enjoyed what I did so much that I didn't care. I just wanted to audition.

And if I did great, I felt so successful that it didn't matter if I got the part or not. Really? I never thought, because it was Latin people, we weren't really accepted in Hollywood. So I knew it was impossible to make it. So any chance that I got any little whiff of success, any opportunity felt so huge to me that that fed me. Do you remember one of those auditions? Like one of them that you came out and you were just like, I nailed it.

Like, who knows? Yes. But like, oh. But I did get the part. It was Miami Vice. It was Miami Vice. It was the amazing casting director, Bonnie Timmerman, who made my career. She had seen me in a student film that got awards.

And she cast me in Miami Vice. And I knew I killed the audition. I had a terrible fever. I had a cold. And my voice was like this for the, And I did the audition like that. Of course, when I went to do it, then I talked like this, because that's what my voice was like.

What was the part? It was Miami Vice. I was Calderon Jr. I played the son of the mob mafia Latin King of the whole entire series. Oh, my God. So this was not like a cameo for one episode. I'm so embarrassed that I don't remember all of my Miami Vice episodes. But you were like...

Oh, you're Miami Vice villains. That's right. It was a great time for Latin people because we all were working. Being the villains on Miami Vice. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, awesome. Okay. Last one in this round.

One, two or three. Let's go with two, right? Let's go with two. Let's do it. What's a piece of advice you were smart to ignore? Well, what we were talking about. To do theater, I mean, not to do theater because you don't make a living. you'll never, but theater was the place

that there were no gatekeepers. I was able to do what I wanted to do represent Latin people the way I saw them. And I did my one-man shows. And it was a big change in my career, in my life. And hopefully for Latin people as well and people who are storytellers. Yeah. Can you tell me about that revelation for you?

So there you are. You got Miami Vice on your reel. Like you're, you get other parts, you're getting movie parts, you're making it, you're doing the thing. Sort of, yeah, sort of, yeah, yeah. You're working. You're paying your bills. Yeah, I'm working, I'm working. Yeah, I'm working. I'm paying the bills. At what point did you say that I am not going to just do this?

I am going to not be reactive to parts that are offered to me. I'm going to make my own thing that is going to satisfy me in a different way with these one-man's life. Well, Rachel, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, the turning point for me in my life and my career was that I wasn't going to wait for Holly wouldn't to accept me because they never were going to. Because I learned early on at NYU when I got to NYU, I was the only Latin kid in my whole grade and there was some really successful white actors, Andrew McCarthy, D.B. Sweeney, and they were going to five editions a day.

I was going to one every five months for a drug dealer or a murderer or some kind of negative stereotype. Right. So I realized that no matter how talented I was, how smart I was, how hard I worked, it was never going to be an equal playing field. I just saw it. And so I started, because, you know, there was this thing called The Ross Report that came out every Monday. And the Ross Report listed every role that was available. And it was like Jim Crow or for Latin people, Juan Crow. So it would say white lead, white romantic lead, white doctor, white lawyer.

you know, and then eventually every five months it'd be like Latin drug dealer, Latin murderer. And I would ask my agent, can I do my monologues? I just wanted, can they see me, can I at least try out? They wouldn't even see you because you were Latino and they wanted a white actor. And this was all acceptable. This was all acceptable in the 80s. And I accepted it. You know, in Latin and black people, we thought, yeah, that's how it is.

That's the way it's supposed to be in a way. But then not the way it's supposed to be. That's the way it is. That's the way it is, right. And then so then I started saying, no, I'm not going to sit back. I know how talented Latin people. I know where Latin stories are. And so I wanted to create my own material.

And I started doing it in all the performance art spaces and comedy clubs. And I saw that everybody was loving the material I was doing. So I started building it up and creating more characters. And then eventually I had my first show, Mambo Mouth. And I did it at the American Place Theater. And you're never going to believe who, in my audience because the reviews came out in the New York Times and all of a sudden

Arthur Miller's in my house. Sam Shepard. Really? Al Pacino, J. F. Kenny Jr., R.I.P. George Plimpton. I don't know if you remember him. Yes, of course. John Malkovich. I mean, it was incredible. The people that were coming to see me. It was unreal to me. And it was, they weren't there to see you. in someone else's creative effort. They were there to see you doing the thing that you were most proud of. I mean, that's the ultimate validation, right?

When it's not, it's a project that comes like from your heart and your soul, and it was about representing Latin voices and Latin faces and people in your life. Latin culture, in a way that was completely not showing up in the mainstream. And then to be validated with like your,

these people that you look at you. Like on my icons, my idols. Yeah. I mean, it's insane to see those people. And I knew, because I knew the theater, and I knew that there was only one exit, so I would change really fast and run to the exit and wait for them, so they had to shake my hand and talk to me.

Wait, and you know it's supposed to be reversed. Like, the star is supposed to, like, wait, and then all the people line up to shake your hand. But I love that you were like, I've got to go out there and see them. Well, you said I was, there was always urgency. I knew there was urgency because they could have slipped out. I was afraid they didn't like it. They just showed up because of the reviews, but maybe they didn't relate to the content because I'm Latin and they're not.

But, you know, I made sure I shook their hands no matter what. And whether they gave me a compliment or not, I don't remember, but it was pretty impactful for me. And as you know, a story is a story is a story. A good story. Absolutely. Like the Odyssey. Like the Odyssey. Like the Odyssey.

Segway. Transition. Let's pull out of the game for a minute and let's talk more broadly about your creative work. You do strike me as a kind of person who has just like a million things going at the same time. Like your fingers are in all the different pies simultaneously. Well, I have ADHD.

Oh, do you? My brain. Yeah, so my brain is like I'm reading three or four books always at the same time because my brain can't, I can't stay through a whole entire book at one sitting. I have to like go to one chapter year. Yeah. I go, you know, I'm reading, I'm reading James Joyce's biography.

And then I'm reading 2666 by Roberto Balano in Spanish. And I'm reading Brothers Cameras off. You know, just that, just that old tome. Real thin. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're all tombs. Yeah. Okay, so you need to be occupied a lot.

And you are. Yes, I do. I do. Not just in your reading, but in your acting and creative life. So I want to talk about your children's book, which is a lovely thing, but it would be weird to be sitting here and not talk to you or at least ask you a question about The Odyssey because this thing is just like blowing up. And it should be blowing up. It's just because I've seen it twice. It is a work of art.

It is Chris Nolan's. I hope he's okay with me saying it, but it's his magnum opus. It makes me weep. You're like transported, you're changed. I don't know. It stays with you. It does not go away. Maybe because it's one of the first stories ever told,

one of the greatest stories every told, that influenced everything from Star Wars to Lord of the Rings, everything. Ulysses to James Joyce influenced, you know, influenced everybody, everything. Right, it's the original epic story. I mean, we use that word, we throw that word around, like, so often in the culture right now, like, epic, that was epic, awesome. Yeah, I was epic.

This is the epic. This is where the word is from. This is the epic, yes. What was the experience like for you? I mean, it was incredible to be a part of it. Just to work with Chris Nolan, who's a visionary. And to shoot with an IMAX camera that's 300 pounds, massive, loud as a lawnmower, is such interesting work.

And it takes so many people to put this together. But it's phenomenal. And he shoots it, you know, he stands behind the camera, which directors don't do anymore. It was when I started in the business, that's how old I am. Directors should stand behind the camera and watch you. So there was. this connection between you and the director that was really intimate and personal. So you felt you were talking to each other.

So he does create this intimacy and this safe space. And he approaches the film like independent film. Like, you know, we go into a room and we read it first, just to actors and him. And then we decide where we're going to go intuitively organically. Then he shapes it with his cameras. Amazing. I'm so glad you got to be a part of that. Oh my God, I feel so lucky.

Yeah. I feel so blessed. I mean, I'm not religious, but, you know, if there was a blessing, that would this would be one. So, I do enjoy the juxtaposition of talking to you in this moment when this massive film was coming out. And then the transition to talking to you about this beautiful children's book that you've been a part of. I know. It's something so massive and grandiose and then something so simple as being able to read your, being able to read your, child. That's right. Which is so important because Scholastic, I did Latin History for Morons,

and Michael Hagen of Scholastic came to me and he told me, he said, you know, Latin children are the least represented in children's pictures book, picture books. He said less than five percent of them have Latin children. You're more likely to see the face of an animal than you are of a Latin child. And Latin people are 30 percent of the U.S. population in public schools. So I was like, oh my God, what does that do to a kid's self-worth? What does it do to their self-validation? And what are other kids? What does that do to other kids that don't see you represented in some kind of positive way?

So I felt like, yes, I've been summoned. This is my calling to write this children's book, because I thought it was going to be really easy five years later. Oh, my God, it was the hardest thing I've ever had. Why? Because it's like writing haiku. You know, it's got to be so brief, so short, really accessible for a child's imagination. And I'm trying to impart information.

So that's really, really, really difficult. So it took five years. After five years, now we have Kiki and the Can, which is the name of the book. So tell me about Kiki. And what is the question at the center of this tale? Well, Kiki is a kid, you know, a nine-year-old, and he's going to the park to play with his friends. and his friends are all talking about their heroes, and they had his heroes this and his heroes, dad.

And he's like, I don't know who my heroes are. So he runs home and goes, Mom, I don't know who our heroes are. And she goes, what are you talking about? Kiki? Look at this book. And then she calls her grandmother and his Titi and his abuelito and the cousins. And they all tell them about all the great Latin heroes in music,

science, inventors, activists, you know, painters, all kinds of great Latin heroes. and Latin excellence. And then he runs back to the park and with his spray can because they're allowing the kids to paint in the murals, he paints all these heroes

back into history. Which is an amazing story. And also, I think like we were discussing earlier, that as a parent, you have kids, they're older now. Yes, I do. Do you remember feeling that

or observing that? Like, looking for books to read with them and reading stories and being like, yeah, this is just let's pretend this is you in this

because the protagonist doesn't look like you and you have to fill in the blanks with your own culture, your own projection of your own heritage onto these things. You have to spend the rest of your life with this scar because you don't see

your self-represence, you don't feel like you have a voice. You don't feel validated. So it's kind of like a scar and you had to spend the rest of your life trying to undo that with affirmations, positive affirmations, you know, flipping, like you said, superimposing your culture, your ethnicity onto characters. So, yeah, that's what you have to do.

So hopefully with this children's book and all the other ones that are coming out, we undo a little bit of a bit. Are you doing more? Yes, I have another, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Scholastic has been great to me. Macmillan books has been great to me. Yeah. So on that idea of being kind of collectively erased from history and popular culture,

you have really held Hollywood's feet to the fire on diversity. You gave a speech to the Emmys a couple years ago that got a lot of attention. As part of it, you said, turns out not complaining doesn't change anything. so for the past few years I've been complaining do you get the sense that people are listening that they're actually hearing the people in power who are the gatekeepers to these choices do you think absolutely I feel changes are happening

I do feel changes are are still coming I mean look at the Odyssey look at Wednesday there's there's so much more Latin representation that they used to be, which didn't exist. And that makes me so happy that it's finally happy. Of course,

I'm not completely happy because we're 20% of the population and 30% of the box office, we over index. Sometimes we're almost 40% of the U.S. box office, which is massive. And we're only 6% of the leads and less than 1% of the directors. and less than 1% of the executives and stories.

But I'm hoping it's all going to keep changing hopefully for the better. And I'm not going to stop until I get my 20% all across the board. Yeah. Well, congratulations on all these projects. We're going to get back into the game. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, let's do it. You know I love games.

Round two. Here we go, round two. Okay. Insights. One, two, or three. Let's go with one. How good are you at making decisions? Oh, really good.

Are you making decisions? Yeah, yeah. I guess because of the ADHD, my brain just like the first thing that pops into my head, I'll go like, that's what it's got to be. And does that, does it bear out? Like, are they usually? You know, I make a lot of mistakes. I make a lot of mistakes.

Because I also have an action bias. I will just like, choose. I hate indecision. It drives me absolutely. Me too. It drives me nuts. but then you make a lot of wrong decisions absolutely

yeah but I do I hate indecision as well I like let's just go with this effort whatever happens I'll be fine but then you're not you're really upset why did I do that

why didn't I just take my time with it and do more research but in your in your creative life in your work life have you made good choices do you think on the way I think it works definitely

a lot better I mean that's acting is all about that it's about going with that first impulse just going with it You know, that's, if you start censoring and editing yourself, you're going to make, you know, corny choices. You're going to make the standard, the obvious, the status quo choice. You want to make the interesting, primal, exciting, dangerous choice.

Right. That's awesome. Like, to just, I mean, it's great that you got to live your dream, but it's also great to have found a way to make a living that rewards that natural tendency of yours. Oh, right, right. Like, that's cool. I guess that comes together because it helps my career and that's what's helped me get further in my career. And it's my skill set, my superpower. Yeah.

That's really interesting. I guess they all have to like merge. They have to line up. Yeah. Okay, next three. One, two, three. Three, I think. Three.

The last. I don't know. What's something you still feel you have to prove to people you meet? With people I meet. I mean, it depends. I mean, I feel like I have to prove anything to my friends. I mean, in the workplace, you still have to prove yourself. You always have to prove yourself.

You know, because, you know, the business is not only racist, it's also agist. It's also sexist. You know, it's got all those elements to it. So, you know, you're always in this industry, always having to re-prove yourself, you know, fix your profile. I mean, it's all that. That feels exhausting. And that's another part of that work that I don't really occurred to me because I look at someone like you

and I'm like, yeah, your dog like what's up? You like made it. But I guess any time you're walking into a room with a new director or a writer who doesn't know you, or things that you're just this, you're just comic, or you're just a gangster. Yeah. They always, everybody's got,

they only saw a few movies of yours and already pigeonholed you in some place. Right. And so then you have to, in that moment, do you, like, I'm actually interested in the moment when you walk into a room and you're like, oh, they think I'm this guy. Yes. They've put me here already.

Yeah. Do you immediately, like, then try to go against type, even in the conversation? Like, I'm not, I'm not even going to play here. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But I think I find that fun. I enjoy that part of it. I guess that's why I persevere because I cheated like a game. It's like a game.

Yeah. And it's like an audition. So, okay, now you think I'm just, that I just talk like this, that I'm a gangster, that I'm just a street guy. But, you know, but now I'm going to try to change myself and try to be a little more articulate and talk about my, yeah, exactly, code switching and talk about James Joyce, Ulysses, Dostoe, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, whatever it is to convince you otherwise or vice versa. you know, now that you think I'm too, to, I'm no longer hood, I'm no longer street, and I need to like show,

then I'll try to be a little more street for you. I'll try to be a little more what you need me to be. Right. Which is just so frustrating because everybody is multidimensional, right? Like everyone has all kinds of qualities about them that might seem contradictory. And it's, Hollywood is a place where it can't deal with that kind of nuance.

No, it cannot. That does not. And you would think, and you would think, no, and you would think that, okay, this is an industry of artists, but it's not. The people who are making the decisions are all business folk. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. They're not really the artists because, you know, you see always directors trying to change, try to do interesting casting, trying to do interesting. And they'll tell them, no, we need somebody who's box office.

No, no, we need somebody who's young and bring the young. There's all these caveats that then start to be brought to directors, which forces them. There's a parallel in journalism, actually, that just occurred to me. Oftentimes, and it happened to me a lot when I worked in TV news, but you decide ahead of time what the story is. And then there's an effort to go solicit certain sound bites that will reinforce the story. That's right, that you have already decided. These are the bounds of it. Here's the characters.

We need this person to say this, which I just found so off-putting. And there's a different kind of journalism where you just go out and you may have an idea of what you want, but then you're open to the story totally changing. Or this person you thought was going to exist in this box, all of a sudden said something else. Like all of a sudden they're like reading James Joyce or whatever, you know. And now it's changed and this person has a different dimension. And isn't, you know, it's not as efficient. Maybe that's Hollywood's argument too. It's like we can't be, I can't explore your nuance as an actor

because I just need to put you in a quick little box to make fast decisions. Fast decisions. But it's also more because Hollywood's fear-based. Everybody's afraid of losing their job. Yeah. So they're all, it's a fear-based industry, you know. Everybody's constantly making decisions to protect their job.

Yeah. Okay. I've decided I'm not going to be an actor. It's fine. That's my conclusion. I'm going to, I've just obviously. I'm going to put my dream away. Two.

Two. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? Oh, wow. I mean, anger is easy, is easy emotion for me. That's why in the Odyssey, having a breakdown and being so vulnerable was really difficult. But it happened. And I think because it was Chris Nolan, the way he created this safe environment and the beautiful script and the magnitude of what we were trying to do. And you want Chris to succeed.

So all that allowed me to have like this moment when I see Odysseus for the first time. And I'm not, and I can't really see him because I'm sight impaired. I'm blind. But I think it's him. But I'm not sure. And then all that just becomes overwhelming. and Eumaeus falls apart. Emaeus, your character.

And so that was not a... You had to work for that moment because on the emotional scale, like anger is a much more comfortable, easy, natural place for you to play. Oh, much more comfortable. Yeah, absolutely. That was to be...

And then I couldn't stop the waterworks and I was just like... I was like a mess, like a puddle. But I felt safe. I felt, yeah, you know, I play Eumas, which is the most loyal character in Western literature. That's how Chris sold it to me. And I play the servant to Odysseus, Matt Damon.

And I'm the first person to see him when he comes back after 10-year absence from the Trojan War. Which would warrant some kind of emotional, big response. Yeah, I didn't know what was going to... I didn't know that I had all these emotions. And I guess I was tapping into a lot of things that were going on, especially the evil times that we're living in. So there was lots for me to dig into, to release,

which I find so beautiful about my craft acting, it's such an incredible way to release all these negative feelings or emotions that are bottled up. You can let them go. Had you never had a role that offered you that kind of catharsis, that kind of vulnerability emotionally? It's usually, yeah, no, not really. Most of my characters are either kind of cool or silly or...

Yeah. You know, like... Yeah, like somewhere of Sam, I didn't really... You know, the most... I guess men's roles don't really go to those places, usually. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

They're always cool. Right. Male leads are always cool. They're always James Bond. You know what I mean? They're Tom Cruise. They're not having emotional breakdowns. They're not crying.

Which is interesting because in The Odyssey, there is a lot of weeping written into it, you know. Like Odysseus men fall to the ground, weeping, tearing their hair, you know. Men were much more, own themselves a lot more, owned all their emotions. Why, I guess I'll ask you then, why is, or how did anger become like an emotion that you're really familiar with? You know, I don't know how, I mean, I guess growing up, my father was easy to come to anger. But he could also cry. My dad cried as well.

But I think anger is just an easier emotion to play, I guess. I don't know. And I guess all my heroes were always, you know, Pacino was always tough and angry. And De Niro was always tough and angry, you know what I mean? So I guess it's just an easier emotion for men to act. act, I don't know. And you yourself? Are you an angry guy?

No, I'm not an angry person. I'm not an angry person. I'm a complainer, a whiner, a neurotic. I'm neurotic, but I'm not. Come to easy to anger, no. But I can't be rageful. I can't, I mean, it does live inside of me, but yeah, I prefer to be a soft male leader, you know, soft macho.

Yeah, I like that. It is interesting, though, that toughness always seems to come with, like, like even when you were saying it, angry and tough. Like there's an idea that if a man can be angry, then it must indicate some strength in that. Verility and strength. Of course, yeah, yeah. I mean, we equate those things so easily,

but, you know, as you get older and I guess more... Jerk. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, male leaders who can be sensitive, who can apologize. It's such much more beautiful masculinity than just tough, rejection, controlling, punishing.

And it takes much more courage, frankly, to make yourself vulnerable. To be able to walk away from a fight, to be able to say you're sorry, takes a lot more courage than it is to knock somebody out. We're at the last round, beliefs. Oh, red, now we go to red. You got a new color on me. New color. One, two, or three.

What do you choose? Oh, sometimes people do this. Yeah, the old dealer's choice. Are you going to read them or you are you are reading them? Oh, you wanted me to randomly pick. Yeah, come on. Now I know what they are. Here, I'll mess them up.

Okay, mess them up. Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. Shuffle, shuffle. Just go in the middle. Who or what is your moral compass? Who or what is my moral compass? My wife is my moral compass. Is she?

Definitely. Yeah, yeah. Tell me about her. Oh, my wife, you know, we met. on Carlito's Way a long time ago. She was in costumes. I was Benny Blanco from the Bronx drug dealer in the movie,

Carlito's Way. But it was a great role. And, you know, we dated and then we got married. We had kids. But she's always been sort of the North Star, you know, keeping our household together, keeping me together, understanding me, understanding

that I'm an art. and I need what I need to be an artist, because I need certain freedoms and I need certain habits of creating and writing. And she, like, helps me have that so that I can create, so I can be the artist that I want to be. Does she call you out? Oh, yeah, yeah.

I mean, what wife is not going to call the husband out? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. she's doing a lot of setting you up for success, which is a lovely thing. Oh, but she'll call me out. And especially if the questions about, like, why is she your moral compass?

Is she a person you can come to? And she's like, I hear you. Yeah. And I feel like this is the road of integrity right here. And this is where you need to be. Oh, absolutely. No, she'll call me out, set me straight, put me in my place. She'll do all of that, which is great, humbling.

Like you're on this incredible premieres in London and Paris And then she puts me in my place Like, okay, go take out the garbage All right, okay, I was just at a premiere with Matt Damon And we went to the World Cup and I went to the next game. Okay. Yeah, no, who cares. Yeah, go take out the garbage.

You're a big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go clean the cat litter. Yeah, but that is important. It's like, don't get too big for your bridges, man. One, two, or three. Uh, three. Do you think there's any part of us that lives on after we die? You know, I hope so.

You know, I was interesting. We were just talking to a Greek expert for talk of the town. And he was saying in ancient Greece during the Odyssey, the way they believed in keeping people alive was memory, was saying their name as often as you could. That's what kept people alive. So it's fascinating. So I'm hoping that that does exist, that we, the work that you've done,

the things you've said, the deeds you've done, do live after you, you know, the good deeds. Obviously, the bad deeds, hopefully, for some people. But, yeah, I believe that they do, and I hope they do. I mean, James Joyce lives for me, Eugene O'Neill, the great playwrights, Arthur Miller. I feel like they walk with. I mean, I do feel that.

Really? Yeah, I do. How do you, I'm going to get woo-woo here, but like when you say they walk with you, what does that mean? Do they, do you conjure them when you have questions about living? Yeah. Do they hold some kind of wisdom for you that you revisit? Absolutely.

Yeah? Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm always reading memoirs, I'm always, you know, reading Arthur Miller's. Miller's biography as well. And you just learn so much. And then you do feel like you do ask them for guidance. You do ask them. And there's a universal tap that you tap into. I mean, how do you explain creativity?

How do you explain when you get possessed as a character? Like when I was doing Eumaeus, I didn't know that I was going to be weeping and having a breakdown. And it just occurred in the moment. It just happened in the moment. And the way the lines came out was, you know, the way they came out so full of emotion and depth and pain and wisdom of an ancient person. And then Chris was like, wow, that was wonderful. Is there a spiritual dimension to that, do you think?

I know you said you're not religious, but it sounds like you're very. Yeah, I feel like it's spiritual. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, this is a spiritual thing. Yeah, definitely. To creativity. Do you like the mystery of not knowing what comes after we die? or is it a little bit unsettling to you?

I mean, I don't know if it's because I grew up Catholic. I'm not sure why I don't have a fear of what happens after or of death. I'm not afraid of it. It's not something that preoccupies you. Not at all. I'm not preoccupied with death at all. I'm preoccupied with the now and actualizing my full potential. and the potential of my kids and my wife and my family.

I'm all about that. Death to me is, I don't know, it does. It doesn't frighten me. Maybe I feel like it must be some residue of Catholicism, you know, that there's an afterlife and there's angels and St. Peter. There must be some of that playing in my, you know, in my score. There's a story and it's all going to be fine. So I'm just. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it'll be good, you know. You know, whatever, reincarnation. Yeah, sure. I'll take it all. Yeah, double down on all of it. I do want to, you just said you still, there's potential you think you haven't reached yet. I just wonder what that means for you. Like, what's a thing you want to do that you haven't gotten to do?

What is fulfilling the potential mean at this stage? I mean, I really enjoy playwriting. I mean, that's the thing I enjoy the most. And, yeah, I want to write a few more plays. You know, I definitely want to see them actualized. produced, brought them to fruition. I mean, that to me is a big deal. I feel like everybody has that canon of an American play,

but we Latin people don't, so that's part of it. For me, like white people have Eugene O'Neill, Jewish people have Death of a Salesman, black people have Lorraine Hansberry raising in the sun, but we land people who don't have one, so things like that are important to me, motivate me. Last question, John. One, two, or three.

Let's go with three. Lucky three. Yeah, Papa needs a new pair of shoes. Oh, this is so interesting. Because we've been talking about all these authors. What's a book that feels holy to you? Holy. Wow.

Wow. That's a, because it, I mean, it's not the Bible for me. No, no. It's not. It's whatever you ascribe some kind of. some kind of sacred quality because of what it means to you. I mean, I don't know, reading the Alia Kazan book was really powerful for me. But I got to say it's Eugene O'Neill's Long Day's Journey Tonight.

I feel like that's a holy book. Like when I read that, I felt that I could write my own stories, that I felt like telling a personal story was valuable. had medicinal properties, healing properties. Because reading that book was so, like, how do he remember what his family said? It was just so brilliant, so life-changing. Yeah, to me, Eugene O'Neill's Longdeat's journey tonight

is a holy book. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. Where is that? You're in it. Work with me. Oh, I'm in it, okay. in it, okay? I'm the commander's chair of the memory time machine.

Okay, I'm Captain Kirking it. In the time machine, you get to revisit one moment from your past. It is not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you want to linger in a little longer. Wow. What moment do you choose? In my past. Okay, wow.

Damn. I mean, when I was, 13 and 14, I was having so much fun before I got sent away. I was like, you know, popular, had so many girlfriends, had so many friends. We were going to house parties and dancing all the time. And the birth of the hustle had just happened. It was incredible. That was the highlight.

Can you give me a moment if you can remember one? Like a moment. Yeah. I guess hanging on my best friend, Ray, and my cousin Martha, and going to a house party and just doing the hustle and everybody standing around and looking at us and hoot and hollering. Yeah. What feeling did you have then? Like I can project some on you in that moment, but...

Oh, you know, just life was exciting. Life was thrilling. life was I don't know it felt like everything was possible I don't know you felt like you felt like

you were maxing out you know you're maxing out in life John Leipazamo it's been so fun to talk with you Oh Rachel what a blast Thank you for having me This was such good Okay obviously you can see John

in The Odyssey But you should also pick up his book It is a new children's book called Kiki and the Can Thanks so much for listening You can find a video version of this conversation and many more on our YouTube channel. Search for NPR Wildcard. I would personally recommend checking out our episode with Harrison Ford, in part because the

surprise, very random phone call that interrupts us at the end is all the more hilarious when you can see his face. This episode was produced by Alicia Jang and Lee Hale. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Quasi Lee. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni, and our theme music is by romteen are a blueie. You can reach out to us at wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.