Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Julianne Nicholson just wants everyone to take a beat

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Anyone who has seen Julianne Nicholson in "Mare of Easttown" or "Janet Planet" knows she is really good at portraying grief. In her new show "Paradise," she plays Sinatra, a heartbroken tech billionaire trying to micromanage the end of the world. She's an evil genius who is also a little bit funny. She shares with Rachel an early memory of "outhouse beauty" and her secret to social situations.To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Do you prefer mystery or certainty? Ooh, that's a good one. I feel like probably certainty is the thing that is maybe, quote, unquote, better for me. But I feel like most of the choices that I've made in life would show that I believe in mystery. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me.

My guest this week is actor Julianne Nicholson. It doesn't always have to be like flowers and roses and rainbows. It's just like, let's just take each moment and be more chill. Julianne Nicholson has been busy breaking our hearts over the last few years. She was totally captivating in the film Janet Planet as a mother dealing with unmet expectations about her life. And she won an Emmy for playing Kate Winslet's best friend in Mayor of Easttown. She's so good in these dramatic roles, it's easy to forget that Julianne Nicholson is also funny. If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of her prolific list of credits,

you'll see that she had a memorable 13-episode arc as Jenny Shaw on the beloved TV show, Ali McBeal. She played this endearingly dorky lawyer, and it was there that people first got a look at her chemistry with actor James Marston, who was equally nerdy and charming on that show. They are now together again in the Hulu series Paradise, where her chemistry with Marsden is electric in a very different way. After all, it's a show about the end of the world and the survival of human civilization. I am so happy to welcome Julianne Nicholson to Wildcard. Thanks for feeling here, Julia. Thank you. Thank you so much. How nice. I'm happy to be here.

I'm very happy to get to talk about Paradise, but we're going to start with our game, okay? Okay. You ready? I'm ready. Okay, let's go. Okay. First three, cards. One, two, or three.

I'll do two, please. Two. What's a smell that brings back a vivid memory from childhood? Hmm. I know one. So when I was growing up, my mom. mom would put, would use, I think you can still buy this cream. It's a, it's a, it's a cream called Skin Trip. It's like a coconut cream. It was very like hippie-dippy. We started using it in the

70s. And my mom would put, um, a bottle of that in my, our stockings, my sister and I in our stockings every year from when we were like, probably 10 years old. And, um, she still wears it. And so if I, yeah. And so now, if I, if I, if I, I ever smell that cream. I mean, I guess it is also still connected to her, but it takes me back to growing up in this little cabin in the woods in Western Massachusetts when I was like seven, eight, nine, ten years old. So my mom used to wear it and I just smell that and I'm seven years old again. It's so funny. My mom wore Jurgens, original lotion. Do you remember Jurgens? Of course. They had like a body wash. They had like they had all.

All sorts of, yes. A whole line. Yes. But that, the smell of Juergens lotion will immediately transport me back to my mom and, like, her beauty rituals. And there's such, you know, when you're a little girl, especially looking up at your mom, getting ready in this very intimate way. Yeah.

It's like we, I don't know, it's like such an intimate. It goes deep. Yeah. Totally. It like touches you, your sensory. I want to ask more about the cabin in the woods because. Because it really was, right? Like, it was rustic.

It was rustic. Yeah, it was a little, we lived, I grew, you know, up until I was seven, I grew up in, outside of Boston. And then my parents separated and my mom was single for a while. And then she and my younger sister and I went and moved in with my stepfather, who moved down from Maine, and is still my stepfather, into this tiny cabin with no electricity or running water in Western Mass. Wow. So I'm sure this is an annoying question, but when you say no indoor plumbing, like you had an outhouse? We had an outhouse. This is the thing people are

consumed with. Where did you go to the bathroom? Of course. Well, actually, we had, there was a toilet inside, which you, but we didn't, we weren't allowed to use it in the summers. Right. So you would look forward to certain seasons when you're like, I'm pooping inside. Exactly. Exactly. Though now I actually have like very fond memories of even though at the time it was like, oh damn it, have to go outside and be like snowing. But I have memories of well, I mean like sitting in the outhouse with like the door open because no there was nobody around for, you know, miles and miles with the flashlight sort of shining outside. And it was all like trees and snow and like snow falling through the beam of the flashlight. So like it's actually in hindsight, it's very beautiful. And my mom and stepfather, they have a very beautiful lifestyle, one that takes work, but it's very simple and, like, connected to the earth.

And I find it really moving. I love to go unplug and be with them. Yeah. Okay. Three new cards. One, two, or three. I'll say one. One.

What's an early memory of appreciating beauty? I mean, you sort of just gave me one on the outhouse, but give me another one. Okay. You don't hear much about outhouse beauty. You don't. Appreciating beauty. God, what a lovely question or idea. We used to go to Provincetown a lot.

In the 70s and 80s, we'd go there the first two weeks after Labor Day when the crowds had gone and things were a little cheaper and would go, you know, you could still go in the ocean, all that. And there, my stepfather and mom told me this story of like the first time I saw a drag queen. And I thought she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen. And apparently she like engaged with me and gave me a little wink as I was walking away. And it wasn't until we were halfway down the street where my stepfather told me that that was a man dressed as a woman. And I just thought it was, she was so beautiful. So that's the first one thing. that just popped into my mind.

I can still remember. I can't remember her face, but I remember the moment. Like, I remember where we were on the street. I remember just looking up and thinking, like, so much, like, glamour and beauty. And, yeah, it's still, it's one of those, like, as my daughter calls them, core memories that I can return to. Do you remember it now? I'm pushing you for more details just because it seems like such a sensory experience. Do you remember the colors?

I remember, like, I think she was wearing, like, dark. She was brown hair. and had like lots of makeup on and um i just remember like dark clothing like it all seemed very like chic yeah to my seven-year-old self yes okay last one in this round one two or three three three when have you felt most homesick um so the most homesick um so the most homesick i felt actually was last year because I did two shows back to back, which I don't normally do. And so I had done a show in Cardiff Wales, a BBC show called Dope Girls, which I love and I'm very proud of. And so I would go to – and I live in England now.

And so I would go – I would drive myself home every Friday night. So at least I could be home on the weekends. And then I got the opportunity to do Paradise right after. and I couldn't say no because I loved the show and, you know. You sort of have to... You sort of have to take it when they come.

Anyway, I basically finished the job in Cardiff. I finished dope girls and I think two days later I was on a plane to L.A. And that was just like intense to have the back-to-back not being home was really challenging. How old are your kids?

Or how old were they at that time? They're 15 and 17. So they were 14. and 16 and, you know, everybody's fine and it's not the same as when they're little, of course, but it's still like we're, that's my place. We like belong together. And, you know, they still, this, there's this whole idea of your children don't need you or don't need you as much or don't want to be it with you as much. And that's not been my experience at all. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's hard to hold both the things, right? Like this feels like a trite,

cliche conversation. But if you have a family and you have a job you love, there are going to be costs and tradeoffs. And you're also modeling for your kids, like how to go after what you want. Totally. It's all good. It just doesn't always feel easy. Like I'm so lucky to have both of those things going on. So let's talk a little bit about Paradise. We're going to push back from the game for a couple of minutes. Okay. Congratulations. It is a great show.

It is highly entertaining and also epically terrifying. And you're so bad in this. I mean, you're so good in it, Julianne. But your character is a little bit of an evil genius. Is that fair to describe her that way? Yes. Yes. Very much fair.

I should just do a little scene setting here. So, this, Paradise is the name of this. These are no spoilers, but it's helpful for this conversation. Paradise is the name of this underground city that you, your character, has built because there's been an apocalyptic event on the surface of the earth and a few thousand, 25,000 hand-picked folks were allowed to keep living underground. And you're the boss of it all. Yes. I play Samantha Redmond, aka Sinatra. who is basically this tech billionaire who has shoved her way into the Oval Office and everything to do with the political, you know, well-being of Paradise, of the United States and then Paradise.

And her son, her son dies, young son, and then basically the rest of her life is like, how can I protect my remaining family? And she goes to, yeah, the end, the end of the earth to do it, literally. But the writing is great. Like, she's also funny and, like, snarky and... I know. I think she's really funny. It's really fun to have that. It's sometimes, you know, you don't know when you're playing it or saying the words, like, that that's what's happening. And then you don't, it's not until you see it after the fact that you're like, oh, that is funny or that's what people tell you, like, how they experience it.

And it is so fun to have that because I have to work hard now for what I do, that it's not always, like, grief. Because also it's like that doesn't come for free to continue to do that. And I'm happy that Sinatra, as evil as she is, like, she's also pretty funny. Like, she's sometimes I feel like in on the joke or, I don't know, just funny. And your cast, I mean, it's such a great cast. And obviously it must have been so fun when you heard that James Marston was going to be attached to the project. I love James Marsden so much. It was, he was so fun to work with when we both started Allie McPhil in 2001.

Because you're so young. Oh, my God. Somebody sent me this clips of the two of us. I'm like, moon-faced. I was like, where's that collagen? Like, bring it back. I'm sure I used to think I had such a fat face and I'm like, oh, my God, if only. And James, too, he looks like he's 12.

We, you know, we became fast friends then and actually have not. seen each other much in the, you know, in the last 20 years, but life, as you say. Both of our first scenes together on Paradise was with each other. We don't have a ton of stuff to do together, but our first thing was together. And in the show, two, our characters have known each other for a long time, but are not close. And I just found it incredibly moving to be looking across at him in a scene again and just feeling like, feeling time and feeling like we're still doing this. And like, I love you. And here we are doing this thing. So it's felt very, It's felt very special and fun.

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. We're going to get back into the game if you fill up for it. Yeah. Round two. This is Insights. One, two or three. Three.

Three. What's something you've had to give up as you've grown up? Well, alcohol. I just did that six months ago. Yeah. In 2016, I had to... Oh, wow. I realized like it was not working for me anymore.

So that's been a huge gift. Not always easy, but... No. But, yeah, really good. You noticed a difference. I mean, I have like a million questions about this. Yeah. Because this is kind of a new, still a relatively new thing for me.

Yeah. I also realized it was not doing me any favors. and had been a real crutch for me for a long time. Same's. But I still find it difficult to socialize. I know. So I feel like I completely understand, and I feel like at first it was terrifying

to feel like I can't believe I have to go in there sober. And now it feels like, actually, I'm not great at social situations. That's okay. Like when there's a lot of people, I can barely even pay attention to. to what anyone is saying, especially if I don't know them. I'm fine in like if it's a group of friends, like that's easy. But if I'm in like at a work event or a school event for my kids and

there's too many people and I don't know them well enough and people are talking to me like I'm not, it's not my strong suit. And so do you leave? Do you not go to those things? I don't go. I don't, I mean, I have to for my job actually. But I usually try to latch on to someone who I know who's like my likes little security social security blanket. Yep. And I just give myself a break. Like I don't have to be good at it. Yeah. And what do you drink? Sparkling water. Yeah. Not even drinking like a ginger beer or like. Sometimes I like ginger beer with a meal. I like non-alcoholic beer. Yeah. There's good ones now. So I only, and I only ever want one.

like one of them. And I don't know. Some days it's harder than others, but I just feel like, that's okay. And I might just tell the person, if, yeah, some, I mean, it does fill me with anxiety sometimes when I'm talking to people and I'm like, I'm not like engaging. It's just sort of like pinging off of me, whatever they're saying, like, what are you going to do?

Yeah. I still struggle when people, when there's so much excitement about, oh, let's meet for a glass of wine or like, you meet a person that they're really into whiskey. and I really used to like what. And their enthusiasm for the event centered around the alcohol is so acute. Yeah. And I feel like the buzzkill being like, I'll have your non-acolic beer. Probably the longer you have with that.

I imagine you'll feel less. I have felt less worried about that. Self-conscious. Yeah. And the other person can still do that. And then normally, often when they're in like, you know, two drinks, three drinks in, I'm like, thank God. I am clear and I'm going to feel good tomorrow when I wake up. Yeah.

So it's like it's worth it. But that was definitely I didn't want to have to give that up. Yeah. Thank you for talking to me about that. I appreciated it. Sure. Good luck. Thank you.

It still feels very significant. Totally. Okay. Last one in this round. One, two, or three. I'll say one. What's a lesson you've had to learn over and over again? Oh, gosh.

Hmm. That's a lesson. Take a beat. Yeah. You can also flip it. Okay, good. I'll flip it. Then I'll give me a minute to think of it while I'm listening. I mean, for me, a lot of it goes back to patience. Because I am not a patient person.

And, you know, now I have a regular meditation practice. but it still pops up. Like there will still be a scenario where I just lose it. And I don't know what I'm in such a rush for. Like for me to be late to a thing and if my kids are running like to a thing, it's like it's existential for me. And I'm back-timing everything. Like in order to get to this place on time, these are all the things that need to be accomplished. And we need to start them like two hours before we have to arrive.

That's called being a mom. So that, yeah, my lesson is just constantly trying to remind myself that it's fine. That it's fine. Right. If we are late to this thing. It is, and like, just stop. I can completely relate to that about being late. Do you have, is that like an old thing for you?

Like, is that in any way rooted in childhood? I blame my parents. Exactly. my dad in particular. Sorry, rest in peace. I love you so much. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to blame him. I also have a problem with being late and it fills me too with like it gets so blown out of proportion. Yes. Where like if you look, I remember one time threatening my husband like, well, I'm going to go first and then I'll meet you there. That's right. You know it was like an hour and a half drive or something to get to the party. He's like what? So this is like a bigger thing, I'm sure.

And then I was like, I literally got in the car and started driving down my hill. Totally. And I turned around and went home because I was like, of course, you're right. But on the other hand, it's like, I'm still working on it is what we're saying. Yes. Because in reality, what? So we get to that person's dinner like 10 minutes late. But it's more than that.

And it's something. So I'm still working on the late thing too and not being late but also not taking it so hard. Yeah, I'm afraid because it's in a reflection on me. I'm like, if it were just me alone, I would be there on time. Same. But now, because I'm with you, now I'm going to be late. Yes. But it's like, and both can be right.

Like, sure, showing up 10 minutes late. But let's also make an effort to get in the car on time if every time I'm literally like dying inside as the clock ticks by and you're just getting out of the shower. Oh my God. So true. And like the kids are always, and then I make a big show of it. I'm like, let's all get in the car. So we're all just like sitting there. And they're like, why is dad always so late?

I'm like, I don't know. Ask him. I don't know. I don't know. Why is your dad? Well, then I find it can also then like my daughter's always on time. But it can get catchy. We're like, oh, I know that I have this amount of, like it's not, I'm not purely

innocent, but I mostly am in this particular case. But it's, yeah, there's something about the on time thing. I agree that that's like feels like a big deal and still like something to be something to be looked at and un- Basically, you and I both need to chill. I think that's what that is.

The lesson we keep learning is that we both need to chill probably. That's for sure. That is for sure. I've been thinking about that more and more. Like, everything's fine. Like take a beat.

Everything's fine. There are things that are worth worrying about. Yes. And being on time to the dinner party is not one. No. You know what else? Like, you know, I always, I want a life for my kids to like always be happy and always be like bringing, finding the joy. And all of those things are important. But my therapist said, too, like, do you think, are you teaching them that that's what life is? That it's just joy? Because they're going to be in for a real wake-up call. Yeah. It's like these other feelings can come up of disappointment and anger and someone being mad and someone like acting out. And it's like not not saying all of those things are, you know, to be.

like they're okay, but it's like, just take it down a beat. It doesn't always have to be like flowers and roses and rainbows. It's just like, let's just take each moment and be more chill. So, yeah, being more chill. Be more chill. See how that goes. I can like hear my husband in my head being like, good luck with that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Okay. We're in the last round. Okay. This is the beliefs round. Oh. Okay. One, two, or three. One.

Do you prefer mystery or certainty? Ooh, that's a good one. I feel like probably certainty is the thing that is maybe, quote, unquote, better for me in where I feel more safe and obviously, right? Certainty makes us feel safe. Yeah, but I feel like all the, most of the choices that I've made in life would show that I believe in mystery and not knowing what's coming next and the beauty in that, in the unknown. There's more room for mystery to happen. You don't need answers. You're not a person who...

I don't. It craves big existential answers. No. Mm-hmm. I don't think so. Do you? I did for a long time. Yeah, I did for a long time.

And it's been sort of a recent evolution for me that I'm fine not knowing things. Yeah. And that doesn't feel like a cop-out. It used to feel like a cop-out to me. like an intellectual cop-out. And I don't feel the same anymore. There are certain things that we just can't know. We can't know what happened before any of this existed,

before the world happened. And I think that that's a beautiful thing. And I don't need to know the answer in the way that I, when I was younger, really needed to know the answer. And if I couldn't know, I would just impose one on the system. Interesting. And so I don't feel that anymore either. I feel even more confident in my answer now, mystery.

Like, the more we talk about what, just the more we talk about, expand on what that means and what that looks like. Like, more and more of, yeah, I don't, I feel like there's so much I don't know. And I'm okay with that. Yeah. And not even, I'm like not even just okay with it. I'm, I like celebrate it. And now I'm like, I relish it now. And I look for it. And I want to identify the mystery of things. I've just gone totally often to the other extremes. I'm super happy here in the woo-woo of it all. Great. I'm good. Okay. This was more of a question for me than you. All right. No, I was. This is what's happening. Julianne, one, two, or three. Three. Three. How often do you think about death? I was just going to throw never out there but that's not true um but not often not often I would say um no every once in a while I'll think about it and it's just it's it's so big of an idea that I just

try to like move through it but yeah it's not it's not a regular part of my life thinking about that I think that's good because you're doing a show about the end of the world, and I think if you were kind of preoccupied in that direction, then that show would like, woohoo! I know. I know. Yes, for sure. I know. I mean, I try to generally, like, stay away from the things that feel too much, too big, too upsetting. Yeah.

It's just like an instinct to, like, fill my thoughts with something. thing else, something nicer, easier, gentler. Yeah. I think that's a good way to live. Last three. One, two, or three? One. When have you experienced awe?

When have I experienced awe? So the first time we went to Yosemite, my husband and kids and I, and we drove through that tunnel and you come out and you see Al Capitan. Yeah, in that valley, yeah. I felt it in the pit of my stomach. I just was like, it was true awe, just natural beauty. Like, I don't remember having that particular feeling before of also the sequoia is up there as well. Like, I find a lot of awe in nature, actually.

I find awe in like flowers, the delicacy and the intricacy and the colors of like flowers. But I find in nature would be where I, it's probably a pretty common response to nature. But, yeah. I also love, the flowers are different, but, oh, Capitaine, for sure, and the Redwoods, there's inherent in the idea of awe is an idea of smallness, right? Like, perspective, I think, is kind of the wonderful feeling of feeling small. Yeah, I agree. That's a beautiful way to look at it, for sure. That's what it felt like, just felt like something.

It felt like more than a mountain face. It just felt like an expression of, yeah, being small. mall in a vast universe. Yeah, there's freedom in that. Really beautiful. Yeah. We end the show the same way every time, and that's with a trip in our memory time machine, which is just this.

I just do this. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And in the memory time machine, you pick one moment from your past, a moment you would not change anything about. it's just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose? I would say, I would go back to my grandparents' house on Thanksgiving. When all my mom's the oldest of 10, my dad's the oldest of seven, yes, Irish Catholic, Boston families.

but I'm thinking right now of my mother's family's house and when I was a little kid, when I was a kid, like 10, 11, 12 and all her brothers and sisters would be there and my grandparents and just it was pure love and food. You can see Julianne Nicholson in Paradise. It is streaming now on Hulu. Thank you so much. Thank you.

If you'd like this episode with Julianne Nicholson, Go back and check out my episode with author Taffy Brodessa Ackner. She's another person figuring out how to chase what she loves doing creatively while also balancing a healthy personal life. This episode was produced by Romel Wood with help from Summer Tomad and was edited by Dave Planchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni. Our theme music is by Romteen Arablee.

You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.