Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Kathryn Hahn feels more powerful than ever

Episode Date: October 31, 2024

Kathryn Hahn can turn a supporting role into the most memorable part of a movie or TV show. In everything from Step Brothers to Parks and Recreation to Transparent, her characters wind up stealing the scene. She's now starring in Marvel's Agatha All Along. Kathryn and Rachel talk about their shared experiences, from loving Little House on the Prairie as kids to the challenges of menopause. To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hey folks, real quick before the show, if you are looking for election coverage, I want to point you to three NPR shows that you can listen to. Up first is NPR's morning news podcast. It's all the news you need to know, and it's recorded really early before the sun comes up and you can get it each weekday. The NPR Politics podcast is out later in the day, and it offers context and analysis on the big stories whenever they happen. And then lastly, consider this. It comes out every evening. And it covers one big story in depth, often in the world of politics. So to recap, that is up first in the morning. Consider this in the evening and the NPR Politics Podcast anytime big stuff happens. Okay, thanks for listening.

Here's the show. How big of a role does fear have in your life? A pretty, I'd say a sensible portion. It's definitely in there. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three.

Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. Because my currency in this business wasn't my sex appeal. My guest this week is actor Catherine Hahn. Like, I really don't feel powerless. I feel like actually more powerful. than I did in my 20s or early 30s. So I have developed affinities for certain actors to the point where it doesn't matter what they're in

if their name is attached to it, leading role or cameo. I'm watching it. Catherine Hahn is one of those actors. I first saw her in Transparent. She played Rabbi Raquel and stole every single scene she was in. And there were a lot of really talented actors in that show. But that's the beauty of a Catherine Hahn performance. She sneaks up on you.

Whether she's playing a best friend's sidekick or a leading role, a middle-aged mom with an insatiable sexual appetite, or a nosy neighbor turned witch, she makes these characters accessible. They are vulnerable and messy and powerful all at the same time. They may start small, inhabiting one corner of the story, and before you know it, they are center stage, and you can't remember when it wasn't so. It was really her role in the show I Love Dick that endeared her to me forever. I had never seen a woman on screen that got to be quite so full. free even in her desperation. Plus her bangs in that show were perfection. All that is to say, I think Catherine Hahn is pretty awesome, and her star turn in a big

hit is well overdue. Of course, I'm talking about her role as the ancient witch, Agatha Harkness, in the newest Marvel show, Agatha All Along. It is my great pleasure to welcome Catherine Hahn to Wildcard. Wow, what an intro. Yay! I'm going to pull that out on a rainy day. Thank you.

Please do. Really, I'm so glad to have you here. Oh, so my pleasure. Okay, so this is how it's going to go. Yeah. I've got a deck of cards in front of me. Each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer. Okay.

You have two tools at your disposal. So you get one skip. So if a certain question, you're just not into it. You can skip it, and I will replace it with another one from the deck. And you get a flip. So you can choose to. to flip a question on me and then I'll answer it before you do. Oh, but I still do have to.

Yeah, you still have to. Okay, but there's one of each. Yeah. There's a skip and a flip. Yeah, yeah, there's a skip and a flip. Okay. Okay, so we're going to break it up into three rounds. There will be a few questions in each round.

So, are you good? I'm so good. Okay, let's go. Here are the first three cards. One, two, or three? Two. Two. When you were bored as a kid, where would you?

your imagination take you? It would take me to Little House on the Prairie land. I just wanted to be with Paw and my siblings, and I wanted to, like, read a book in a hay, in like a, you know, that hayloft in a barn. Yeah. Roll down that hill with Danny Lions. I wanted to roll down that hill with Danny Lions. I wanted to be so excited for dinner. I wanted those, like, I wanted like a fresh donut. Like all of it. Like a skittal cake, like a all sounded like delicious. That was my dream.

I grew up close to the Amish also. So it was like that whole kind of analog way of life and those summers were that's where my imagination would go. Do you know that Ma Ingalls taught me how to crack an egg with one hand? Stop it. For real. Where did you mean Ma Ingalls? No, not in real life. Just in an episode.

Oh, you were in it? No, oh my God. Oh, my God. I'm a child watching Little House, and Ma Ingalls cracks an egg with one hand. And I think she's showing Laura how to do it. But I learned how to crack an egg. And it's weird, but really every time I crack an egg with one hand, I think of Maugh. You think of Maugh.

Wait, that's amazing. I mean, there you know. But do you remember they had maple snow. Oh, yeah. That was the big tree. Oh, the best. Can't tell you how many times. Did you ever try to do that?

Yes. So many times. We would just go out and get like fluffy snow in Ohio and then just put maple syrup over. My mom was so understanding. But then we had to, of course, we had to watch out for yellow snow. That's my brothers, we can be like, ew, it looks like yellow snow. I was like, it's not. It's delicious and you're missing out.

All brothers are exactly the same. They are. Okay. Next card, three new cards. Next question. One, two, or three. Three. What's an ordinary place that feels extraordinary.

ordinary to you because of what happened there. There was a closet in the house before we were, we moved. It was like my husband and my like first house in L.A. It was not big enough for our family. But we had both of our kids there. And I remember we turned this closet into, because we had no room, into like the changing area and his like, and we made this little like mobile because we heard babies, you know, see in black and white for a while.

So we've made this little mobile with a branch and over it and like the art we put on the walls and his little like changing pad. And that to me like just is the most special place. Like it was just when he was, I mean, so many things happened in there. Like the first Father's Day and I had written on his onesie like happy Father's Day. And so at the middle of the night for the feeding, even like put it on him and saw it for like so many of those little. And then, like, as they grew older, that became like their, you know, hideout because it was so special in there. Yeah. Yeah.

I love closets, you know, just like there's lots of imagination. Me too. Lots can happen in closet. That used to be my only place I could meditate in my house. Or do any kind of voiceover during the pandemic was just on the floor in my closet. Yeah. So this is my excuse to ask about your husband because it is a very cool. thing to have met your person so early in one's life. Yes. I mean, you guys were in college.

Yeah. And you still like and love each other and cohabitate. There, I mean, like any long marriage, I'm assuming there are serious ups and downs. And we met each other when we were not fully formed. But that is the thing. That's the thing. It's like you change and how miraculous is it that you both changed and still agreed to be together. I know. Yeah, we choose. Like, we have to make, like, it's like every day you choose. I mean, and I feel like the people we made are so extraordinary, these two kids. And so, and he is still my best friend. I just love hanging out with him.

He's an awesome guy. And so, yeah, it is. I'm very, very proud of us. I know it's no small thing. Yeah, yeah. Good on you guys. Okay. Three more.

One, two, three. Okay. Two again. Oh, I like this one. Oh, good. I like all of them, but this is like tarot. I know. I can't believe they let me do this, honestly.

It's so awesome. That's so great. What period of your life do you often daydream about? Well, I guess it depends on the chapter I'm in. Like right now, as my son is turning 18 on Friday, I think it is that period of like his preschool and like before. Like the I just, I'm so back in that place of just playing with him until dinner. Like that like weird post nap before dinner like the sun's kind of going down.

You're trying to find things to do. What if I start crying? But like you also can't believe it's another night you had to go through. Like it's the same. No, I know. Those hours were really. really hard for me. And when I think about them beautiful. Yeah, literally the witching. Yeah, the witching hour. Like the sun would go down and we'd be like, no, no, we'd have to do it again.

But like that little time before dinner that was always like sometimes you would walk into it, like dreading it, but then it's still, now, of course, I'm so nostalgic. What was the thing that you would do? What was your go-to? Oh, we would look for bugs in the front yard. We made like a little you know, fairy village by the tree in the back. Like, we would try to play catch, but we were on, like, one of those, like, deep silver lake houses. So every, like, there was, we lost maybe two out of three balls. And just, like, just taking a little walk sometimes, like, and just chatting.

It was just the best, the best. Like, what I wouldn't give now to have those, like. And again, like, when you're in the middle of it, you're like, oh, but those moments now are like coming to the surface and I'm daydream about them. Little snacks like cutting apples, peanut butter and like just having them not complain about it. I mean, is that, was there ever a chapter than that? I don't know. Mine are still like.

Oh yeah. Now they are. And he's like, I can't. The spreading. It's so hard. Oh my God. It's just so. They're like, I'm starving.

And I'm like, look at the fridge. No, but I'm telling you, it gets so weepy. because you cannot believe you're not going to hear all of his, like, nonsense. There's a time in the near future that, like, that little nonsense of him, like, puttering down the stairs and, like, just hearing him and, like, looking in the room and seeing all this, like, crap all over the place. Like, it's that. It's, like, just to know that those, like, running down the stairs late in the morning

and, like, all that stuff. It's like, it's just that noise is going to become, like, memory, which is you can't believe it. So before I get to the next round, we're going to take. a little break and talk about Agatha all along. This is the new Disney Plus series that you're starring in. You have played this character before, Agatha Harkness. She's this old witch, ancient, in fact. She looks amazing, but she's centuries old. She looks great. Yes. But this is the first time that Agatha is at the center of the storyline, right? This is your starring role. So first of all, congratulations. Thank you so much. This is my

favorite part, I think. Really? Oh, yes. Because I've been able, like, it feels like she runs the, Agatha's able to encompass so much in one character. There's so much, like, cynicism and vulnerability also and just like, just allows herself to, like, have her gross impulses on the surface. And it's everything that I think, yeah, at least I as a woman, like, the stuff that, especially as a Catholic school girl, who I got over that really fast. But the fact that, like, those things are allowed in her. Yes, totally. You can be big with your emotions. You can be angry. Yep. Take up space.

You can take up as much space as you need. You can be, like, not that I would be casually cruel, but to be able to play that is just, like, selfish. All the stuff that we're like, oh, no, no, no. But, like, all that stuff, like temperament. like temperamental and yeah yeah um how much knowledge pre-existing knowledge did you bring of the marvel cinematic universe before you played agatha not much when i got cast mary lavano's our producer gives everybody that joins like a huge binder oh there was i was imagining that there had to be

a binder and it was literally photographs of the pages in the comics and every time she's mentioned or seen So you can kind of put together a narrative through that for Agatha. I mean, her costumes run the gamut. It runs the gamut from like the lady, the old, you know, the very old witch to just like all of a sudden she just has like flowing hair at a gray streak and it's just basically wearing a body suit. It's like, oh, you can tell by the era. And so I think when Jack Schaefer who wrote Wanda Vision and also created a show ran, our show and directed a bunch, she kind of created this Agatha out of loosely out of some information from the comics. But there's no straight line for her in the comics. So it's a really

interesting combo of like very clear storylines from the comics and then these kind of amalgamations and imagination to fill in the blanks. Yeah. What's her best power? Like for you, what what's the best superpower. I mean, manipulation is her superpower. And she's so self-involved that it's all for her. Because I think the more in this universe power that you have to destroy the more powerful you are. And some use it for good and some for bad. And I think hers is, she would, she would, she would, wouldn't say this, but I think it's in that great gray area. Okay, so we're getting back into the game. A reminder, you have to skip and a flip.

Don't have to use it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, just a little reminder. Okay. It means nothing. Okay, one is pretty. There's very primary. Yeah.

Okay, one, two, or three. One. One. What life transition has been challenging? Well, I was going to say the one I'm in right now. This particular chapter in a woman's life into the next portal, like through the next portal where, you know, she's not as fertile in the literal sense, has been a very unexpectedly challenging time.

Because I'm talking about menopause. Yes. Yeah. Pause in the moon. But like, you know, no one talks about it. So you kind of walk into it blind. And I certainly thought it was, I was in paramedopause, this is how I sleep to talk about, but for a very long time. So I was like, oof, do I feel like myself?

Like, who is this? Like, who's coming, like, who's coming through right now? Like, my moods, my like. Right. And how much of it is you and how much of it is the thing? It's the hormones. Yeah, you don't know. Yeah, I know.

You know. And I think somewhat this show is also kind of a metaphor for that of like, you know, breaking through as a woman to find your power, looking for your power at the end of the road. Not that this right to pause is the end of the road, but the end of the road of what we had. One version of you. One version. So I'd say that. And then also definitely the transition from high school to college, which may be why I'm so keyed into my son.

he's having his own experience, but that being launched into, like, just saying goodbye to your childhood, that's how I as experienced it. Again, I'm not saying that he is, but that was really an unexpected. I was, like, very homesick for a long time. Yeah. One in my bed, one of my friends. It's just, like, the newness and the knowledge that it was, like, never going to go back to what, like, that was, was really heavy.

Yeah. Can I get back to the lady stuff? Yeah. Just, it is sort of a big deal that the Marvel, you know, powers that be cast a woman who, are you 501? Yes. Right. Like a 51-year-old lady as the lead in this. That feels awesome. I still feel very immature. I mean, I'm 52.

But in terms of reaching this point in a woman's sense. life and you're shifting identities and your body's doing all this weird stuff. I imagine for actors in Hollywood, it is doubly complicated because you start getting people, the producers see you in a different light. And to them, you're losing your power. You're losing your virility, your sexuality or charisma or something. And this doesn't feel like that. This feels like an affirmation.

This role feels like an affirmation of those things. A hundred percent. Yeah. Like that all the women are. over 40. So it does feel like a really special kind of radical thing that we've been able to pull off. And I, though, because my currency in this business wasn't my sex appeal, I think that I've been able to move through and still feel not forgotten. I feel just like, I feel like I've been able to just kind of walk into more complicated parts.

And I am eternally grateful for that. Like I really don't feel powerless. I feel like actually more powerful than I did in my 20s or early 30s in this business. I definitely feel I have more control over my choices. Yeah, yeah. I have more say. I'm definitely not as afraid. to say it, which is really freeing.

Yeah. And so it does. It feels like more. And I think that's why this part is so deep. Like to be able to do this at this stage in my hopefully long career as a performer. Like this is really exciting. That's awesome. Maybe.

Okay. Three more cards. Yay. One, two, three. Okay. One on the right. Far right. Oh, the other, my, yeah, my right. You're right. Sorry. Three. Yep.

Oh. How big of a role does fear have in your life? A pretty, I'd say a sensible portion. It's definitely in there. It's weird. It's in the mix. Mostly it's when I'm doing these kind of things. Oh, shoot. No, this is making me very comfortable. When I say that, I mean, like, having to talk as myself.

Ooh, why? Because I'm like, who? Why? That's exactly, you answered it. And it's like, ah, I just, that's when I get like a little self-conscious. This has been the most fun because I love the questions. Thank you, thank you. But it's like, it feels like, I always feel like no one's going to be interested.

Right. Who cares? Right. But you know what is funny? Like literally right before this question, I was like, I got to flip it. So this is the question I would want to flip for you. Oh, I have all kinds of fears. I mean, how much time do you have?

I think I do a pretty good job. I'm not paralyzed by any of them, I don't think. But, oh, I have a lot of professional insecurities and fears. You know, I started this show. Like, is anyone going to listen to this show? I don't know. It's like a total shift from what I've spent 20 years of my career doing. How amazing is that?

Thanks. That's why this age is so rad. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And also, totally scary. Yes. So, you know, you become attached to certain identities that you have of yourself. Yes. And then when you release them, you're like, who am I now that I'm not that thing?

Yes. And am I actually really good at anything? Oh, my God. Do I have discernible skills? We are so tough on ourselves. Yeah. We're like the toughest on ourselves. I know. And I hear myself saying that.

I'm like, that's absurd. Like, it's okay. No, but it's human. I've definitely had those exact thoughts. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. It's the like unknown.

Yeah. I mean, I have never been able to really plan anything also because who knows where this job takes you or what's going to be around the corner or what's you've But I think those same feelings of like, I always think like, when, am I ever going to work again? Like, as soon as the job ends and there's nothing. Right. You're like, that might be it. Right. If there's nothing on the horizon. And every time I do a job that night before for a new job is like, I forgot what I'm doing. This is going to be a disaster. They shouldn't have hired me. The tomorrow's going to be so embarrassing.

And it always, it just seems like, you know, now, of course, there have been experiences where that has been totally true. But like, but you survived. And I survived. And I survived. Right. Exactly. We're into the last round. Woo.

All right. Three more cards. Now they're red. I'm going to do that first card. This one? Mm-hmm. Number one. Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you found out wasn't true?

Oh. Oof. I think that people. always don't keep your what you tell them privately to themselves. Like every time I went, even in high school, you cannot tell anybody this. And I did that way too much. It took me a long time to be like, right, okay.

I still do it. I love it. You would reference earlier that you were like a Catholic girl for like a hot minute. I thought it was going to be something like, you know, I don't know. Like God's not really talking to me or like a. Oh, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. That was honestly, I respect, respect, respect.

But yeah, Cathalism. People gossip. Yes. And Catholicism was basically like the cheapest private school option that we could go to. And they had a great couples club that my parents loved. But I And I loved a uniform. I mean,

but especially when it's like I, you are charged with holding somebody's very private and like either painful or precious or that is a great responsibility to not.

Yeah. Gossip is tough though because sometimes it's fun to hear it. I know, but I did this interview with this woman who I adore Sarah Hurwitz. And she wrote a book about sort of becoming a born-again Jew. Like, she rediscovered her Judaism. Anyway, so long story, I made short, the thing that I remember from that conversation is how she, is how Judaism treats gossip.

And like, you don't do it. Like, it's sacred to not do it and to not speak ill of other people. And I'm not Jewish, but I love learning about different traditions. And that has always stuck with me. Like the power of your words and the sacredness that you hold other people's thoughts, feelings, and secrets. Yes. And the power your words have when you put them out in any kind of negative way about someone else. It's not like I don't do it.

I mean, I'm a human and I still do all that stuff. But I think more about it. And I try to use more intention. Yeah. Be impeccable with your word. Wasn't that? I don't know what that is from. I think maybe even the four agreements.

Look at you. But I just do. I remember in trying to hold on to that because it's very hard because it is. Someone also told me that like talking about somebody else. Bonds you two together. Yeah. Or you're putting a curse on that person. Oh.

Oh, God. Yeah. Because now anyone that you've told that thought or opinion or gossip to has that in their mind before they've even met that person. And then that keeps going. So that's something also a little witchy. But I do. I do. That really

really got me. That of course you are. I'm not going to tell anyone anything you've said to me here. This is between us. We're going to press delete. Three more cards. I'm going to do that first card. This one?

Number one. Have you ever had a premonition about something that came true? I don't even want to say it out last. I'm going to think of another one. Yeah, you don't have to tell me that one. But you've had them. Yeah, I definitely have had them. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, there have been times where the phone rings, and I know what it's about before I pick it up. Like, my dad passed away this spring, and it was like a random phone call. But it was like a random phone call on like a Monday night. and I saw a 216 number, which is the area code from Cleveland. I didn't recognize it as my uncles. And I was like, mm-hmm, okay.

And he'd been doing okay. Like, so, you know, it was, it wasn't like I was always expecting this call. I mean, I guess you are, at a sense, always do when your parents are getting up there and you're not living with them. But I just had a feeling. Had he been sick? Not recently. No. He had had hard stuff like five.

years before, but he, I mean, he was 83, but it was definitely the last thing on my mind and the first thing I thought of. So it's weird, that kind of stuff that happens. Yeah. I think people can, a lot of people could say they, they know that too, that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely happened to me before. And yeah, some of them are things you don't want to say out loud because they were so I know. Fragile and precious and maybe sad. Yes. Yes. But, It always, strangely, even when they're hard things, it makes me feel, I don't know, more connected. That is exactly the word I was going to say, is that's what it, I took it as this like he was, like that we were, our like higher powers were connected. Yeah.

You know, I was able to be there. when he passed, which meant so much. And he passed away like three hours after we got there. So it was all supposed to unfold exactly it was. But it did. I think those moments do reveal that subconscious connection you have to, a loved one. Is your mom still around? Yeah.

Is she doing okay? She's doing great. Yes. Yeah. It's a good thing. She's doing okay. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Oh, my gosh. Three more cards. Okay, great. One, two, three. Two. Two. Is there anything in your life that feels like praying? Oh.

That's a beautiful question. I'd say being on a road trip with my fam, like when we finally, and the dogs even, when we finally relax into ourselves. like it always takes a few days of like bickering and kids and yada yada but then when we're finally like relaxed the four of us and we're all just in a car and like everything I love the most and the planet is like in one um you know small space like hurtling into the unknown like that is that feels like praying it feels like praying when I'm just like listening to my kids talk about their days, which is like rare because they're older and older and there's a lot of like, fine.

But when they do, it's like, she was like praying. And then also like at a work level, it's that arrested, heightened period before action is called. But like when everyone is still, is still when it is like a heightened scene. And even the crew is involved. Like you just feel this. like this kind of limbic space between like the here and then the this other like plane we're just about to enter and that always feels like praying. I love those moments too.

I don't know. I can't con but I know exactly what you mean when there's a collective, there's people and you're about to do something all together and it's the right before. Yes. I love the right before. I love the right before. It's so full. Yeah, it is.

It could be anything. It could be anything. Uh-huh. Yeah, it could be anything. We end the show the same way every time, and this is where we're at, the end. I know. This is so fun. So, this is what we do.

You get a trip in our memory time machine. Here we go. And I ask you to choose one moment from your life that you wouldn't change anything about. It is just a moment you would like to revisit and linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose? This is my therapy. I was always about my kids, but I took, my son was obsessed with elephant seals, and there are some, like, near Hurst Castle, like up the coast,

and he had seen them in books, and there's, like, hundreds of them on this beach. And I just remember the look in his eyes when he saw them for real for the first time. And that was, I would never change a minute, a second, the air, the, where the sun was. I can, like, picture it completely what he was wearing. What was he wearing? He was wearing straped shorts, you know, those Bowdoin shorts. So he's wearing like long Bowdoin shorts. a little t-shirt with a sailboat on it.

And his hair was really long, like to hear. He loved his, like, blonde hair. And so he's holding it back on one side like this to look at them. So he's just going like this to get it out of his eyes. And he was so quiet gripping the fence between us and where all of these protected elephant seals were. and we had to go when we went back to the hotel he just drew them the whole night he just could not get them out of his he was like furiously drawing them i mean i have so many of those moments that i wouldn't change a thing of feel blessed to be able to say that katherine han she stars as agatha harkness in the new disney plus

show agatha all along katherine thank you for doing this oh thank you for doing this oh thank you Thank you so much. This is like the best way to start this day, and you should not doubt for a second this incredible show. Oh, thank you. You're amazing. This is like so rich and so fun. Thank you. If you want more from Catherine Hahn, we've got a bonus episode where she talks about feeling overlooked during auditions in the early days of her career.

Doing like blind auditions in New York City where you were like, they barely look. They just said thank you. Like it was so... You were literally overlooked. Literally wasn't even looked at. You'll also hear Seth Myers talk about taking too long to propose to his wife. You can listen to that bonus episode and every one of our episodes, sponsor-free, by signing up for Wildcard Plus at plus.npr.npr.org slash Wildcard.

This episode was produced by Romel Wood and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Maggie Luthor. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth. Donovan. Our theme music is by Rom Teen, Arabluie. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.