Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Lena Waithe's religion is 'The Wizard of Oz'

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

At 40, Lena Waithe already has an impressive legacy, with dozens of writing, acting and production credits. She was the first Black woman to win an Emmy for comedy writing (for Master of None). And she's also the creator of The Chi, which is just wrapping its sixth season. She tells Rachel one of her core beliefs is a lesson from The Wizard of Oz. They also discuss being bad at being wrong.To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

What makes you irrationally defensive? Irrationally defensive? Oh my gosh. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them.

It's my least favorite thing is getting something wrong. My guest this week is actress and producer, And that can be in many ways, you know, it'd be a relationship, you know, some trivia, you know what I mean? I love that those are in the same breath. Lena Waith knows what she wants. And what she wants is for people to look outside of their own lives to try and understand other people and the choices that they make. Lena Waith's TV shows and films are these powerful little empathy engines. Lena became the first black woman ever to win an Emmy for comedy writing on the show Master of

none. She's also the creator of the comedy series Boomerang and 20s. She wrote the film Queen and Slim and was the producer on the movie Dear White People. But for me, Lena's real triumph is the shy. The show takes place where Weth grew up on the south side of Chicago. It's about black people living at the margins of society with little to no room for air. It's also about family and loyalty and joy. And I love this show because every character is given their full humanity. You cannot put anyone in a tidy column of good or bad or say, this person is worthy of respect and this person's not. People are complicated, beautiful, and they're broken. And Lena Waith doesn't want you to look away because if you do, you're going to miss the truth that she's putting out into the world,

which is that judging people is harder when you start to understand them. Lina Waith, welcome to Wildcard. Oh, wow. Thank you so much for that. That means so much to me. Every word you said really permeated my heart. So thank you very much. Thank you. Sometimes I make these big statements about artists and I'm like, God, I hope they feel that way about that work. But for me, it's like a through line through all the stuff that you do. It feels like there is a purpose in what you're doing to make other people understand how other people live. Yeah. I think what writing has taught me is that I cannot judge anyone because I can't judge these characters. So who am I to not judge characters, but then walk through the world and

judge people? And so it's a writer's job to witness humanity. I'm still a human being. I don't love every person. I don't like get along with every person. But I have to step back and try to understand why a person is who they are and why they are the way they are. Yeah. So I got to, I owe you a huge debt of gratitude, not just because you made great stuff that I got to watch. but hello, a different world. So this is like my big excuse for me to go back and watch old reruns of a different world. I mean, that's my favorite thing to do. All the young people, they're like, what even is that?

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so for those who don't know, we should just say, A Different World was this Cosby Show spin-off from the 1980s. I was obsessed with it growing up. It was so awesome. And you were, too, because you named your production company after the school that the show was centered on. It was this fictional college called Hillman University. Your production company is called Hillman Grad. Yeah. I was this little white girl in Idaho. I had no idea what an

HBCU was. It did not matter. I totally wanted to go to Hillman. And I love that show so much. So thank you for giving me an excuse to go back and watch all those episodes. And I love that you are representing with a different world hat on today. Yes. Yes. I say I wear this hat a lot. It's a vintage hat that I was gifted because obviously people know how obsessed I am with the show and how much of an impact it had on me. And I didn't know anything about HBCU because I was very young. Even though I had a black kid growing up on the South Side of Chicago, I just didn't. I wasn't at that age where I was thinking about college or even high school yet. So for me, it was also normal. And to see these characters that were so clearly defined, I think, you know, Duane

Wayne and Freddie and obviously Whitley and Kim and Mr. Gaines and Ron, like the fact that I can just sort of riddle off these names. And so I didn't even realize I was getting an education. I'm really grateful to that show because of, you know, the impact they had and just with through art. I've got a deck of cards in front of me. Okay. Each one has a question on it that I'd love for you to answer. Okay. I'm going to hold up three cards at a time. Okay. And you're going to choose one at random to answer. Okay. There are two rules.

You get one skip. Okay. If you use your skip, I'll swap in another question from the deck. All right. And you get one flip. So you can put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions. Before you do, you still got to answer. I like that, though.

Okay. You know, that'll help. It's in your tool chest. We're breaking it up into three rounds, memories, insights, and beliefs. Okay. With a few questions in each round. All right. And because it's a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end.

Nice. I like prizes as well. You ready? Yeah. All right. Let's go. We're in the memories round. Three cards. Pick a card. One, two, or three. Okay. I'm going to go with two. Two. Where would you go to feel safe as a kid? My grandmother's room. I grew up in my grandmother's home where my mom grew up as well.

So we were a three-generation house. And my grandmother's room was very much the center. of the house because she had the TV with cable and in her room and she had this really big bed and this chair next to her bed by the window. And it was this amazing old wooden chair that you could just sit in for hours. And so I would always sit there, you know, while she'd be sitting in the bed and we'd be watching whatever she wanted to watch because it was her TV, it was her remote, it was her call. So I would sit there and watch all the shows she used to watch. You know, we would watch Hunter, Matlock, murder she wrote. And we would just talk about the TV shows on television.

And she would always say, you're always analyzing these shows. If there's anyone that wouldn't be surprised that I'm in this business, it would be her. May she rest because I would just sit and talk to her all the time. Like, she couldn't enjoy the shows because I would be trying to figure out what was going to happen or what was going to go down or what was going on with this character. But that was always a safe space, just being in that room with her and just spending time with her. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Moving on. Yeah. Three new cards. Okay. I got to go at one now. One, two, three, one. Yeah.

When did you feel like you found your people? Oh, man. I think, you know, Michael's Fiboda, who was a writer's PA on the game when I was an assistant at girlfriends, he and I just really vived. And he's just like, yo, I got a writer's group that I do where we sit and we like write original pilots that we're working on to kind of help us get some stuff done. And I walked into that writer's group and I met Justin Simeon who was working on something, which ultimately would become dear white people. And then Justin and I just really clicked and bonded and became friends. So that's really when it happened.

So I just, like, I landed in there and I just, like, found all these amazing people that I'm still tight with today. Tell me how that jibes with Chicago in your experience there because it sounds like this, your people were writers. Like, you needed to find your writer people. Yeah. Did you not have that in some way in Chicago? You know, I was a bit of an oddball, you know, in Chicago because I was obsessed with TV, obsessed with, like, movies.

Like, people go to the movies and watch TV shows to a pastime. And I think my family could tell it was more than that for me. Was it moving you in a different way than it was, your peers? I would be just enthralled by it. and be thinking about it. Like, I have, like, some chest tattoos. I have, like, a power line from Goofy Movie and Jack from Night Before Christmas over here.

Like, because those are two very important movies for me. I have, like, a Wizard of Oz tattoo. I have Judy Garland here, you know. I have the lion. I have the scarecrow. I have all of it. Like, because that movie was more than a movie for me. It was almost like a Bible to life.

It's like where you are, you always think there's something out there that's better than we're out at right now. But the truth is, when you go out there and get to the Emerald City and meet the Wizard, you realize it's all, it's not really what you thought it was. And then all you long for when you're in the Emerald City is to go where? Exactly. And it's a lesson none of us really learned still. You know, we still are trying to go, like, I got to get to the Wizard. If I could just get to the Emerald City, if I could just, you know, I'm going to keep, everything will be fine. And And then you get there, you're just like, I'm still not fine.

And so I think the big reason why, Wizard of Vaz, it's such a religion and a reminder for me is that there is no Emerald City that will feel like home. Was that sad for you? Was there a grief attached to that? No, I think what it did was it helped me to stop. It helped me to slow down and to, I'm still, you know, driven and ambitious. But I've learned that there's no there there. Yeah. You know, it's like we're all chasing something.

Because the truth is, there's always something you want. And that's fine. You know, you need that thing to make you want to go. But you got to remember that it'll be nice if it happens. It'll be cool. But you don't want it to be a thing that if you don't get it, that you can't find happiness. After the break, Lena examines why relationships can be so hard. You know, we all want to meet someone, fall in love, and have that be it.

And that would be great. But the truth is, love is here to teach us things. Okay, round two. This is insights. Things you have learned or things you are learning. All right. One, two, three. I'm going to go with three.

Three. What's a hard truth you've had to learn about yourself? Oh, man, a hard truth. You have a skip and a flip. I know. You're like, Lena, if you want to. Okay, you know what? I'll do a flip and have you answer first.

Then I'll go. Yeah. Yeah, give me some time to think about the hard truth. It's a little hard truth. Oh, I mean, there's so many. I know. Yeah, I'm trying to think of which one I want to share. So what is the one that we can say.

that we could talk about on NPR. Right. I am more selfish than I like to think I am. That's good. That's good. I can relate to that for sure. And sometimes it comes in the, I wrap it in the package of not really like self-care, but like I can't manage this.

I can't manage this social situation. I can't manage the intense emotions over here of this. And that's just me. Sorry, guys, it's just me. So I got to, like, walk away from it. And I think it's a cop-out. And I think when I do that, it can, sometimes that's true. And sometimes it's an excuse.

And I'm putting my own self ahead of other people. And I think I do that too often. That's really good. I also totally relate to that completely. So you're not alone. and that hard truth. I think one for me is that I think I can tend to care more about what feels good to me than maybe what's best for everyone involved.

Same more. I think that. that I have a hard time not getting everything I want. And I think a hard truth I've had to learn about myself is that I can become obsessive. I can become upset. I can become frustrated. I can become moody and possessive. You know, like you're mine.

That's mine. I want that. And even when it comes to people. And that is not okay. Has that burned you in romantic love? For sure. And I think it's something that I have not figured out because the truth is we all want to meet someone, fall in love and have that be it. And that would be great.

But the truth is love is here to teach us things. Love is here to, I believe, lift us and destroy us. Whoa. I think that's what it is. And I think when we think that we don't want it to destroy us, I don't know if it necessarily teaches us anything. Yeah, but Lena, people are going to hear it. I mean, I get what you're saying.

Like, it's going to tear you down. But there's a violence in that language that you chose. shows, to destroy you. Because then what's left? I mean, I love the title of Michaela Cole's show. I may destroy you. I love that show. I love that show.

Forever, forever. It shifted something at me. Love has that power to, you know, to illuminate and to destroy. Yeah. And I don't know, I haven't known a love that, didn't make me feel like I was in heaven, but I also haven't known of love that I didn't feel like

some days I was in hell. And I think that is actually, some people could argue like, hey, love should never feel pain. It should never be distra. It should never feel bad. That's not been my experience. And maybe not what you're actually looking for. But, you know, I don't, I'm grateful

for the things that I've learned and for the stuff that I've been through. because it's helping me to see myself, and it's also helping me to have a better sense of the human experience. Because that I can't be good at. I just have to live it. Yeah. Thank you.

It's a good one. I'm telling you, like, if we go go there, come on. I know. I like it. That's good. Sheesh. I like you. I like you.

I know. Let's hang out. Come on. I mean. I mean, Last one in insights. Okay, I'm going to do one. I'm going to do one.

What makes you irrationally defensive? A rationally defensive? Oh my gosh. I think this is the irrational part. You know. You know, I can be, I can get defensive, you know, about just the idea. because of being wrong about something. Like, I don't like to be wrong.

I don't like being proved wrong. I don't like, so I realized like, oh, I, what? I wasn't right about that? What? It's my least favorite thing is getting something wrong. And that can be in many ways, you know, it would be a relationship, you know, some trivia, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't want to get this wrong. I want to get it right.

I know. It's like relationship, like taboo, you know what I mean? Yeah. I realize I'm not good at not being good at things. Yeah. So I can get defensive when I'm not like succeeding at something. Yeah. I mean, that's the nature of an ambitious successful person, right?

Like if you were happy with it, then you just stop trying. This is true. You got to keep doing stuff that scares you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When's the last time you were wrong about something? Oh, recently. I thought a particular actress was a Game of Thrones and she wasn't. And I was so ticked.

Right. Because I was like, are you sure? That's not her? And my, yeah, she's like, no, you're getting that wrong. I was like, oh, and I looked it up too. Right, of course. Let me see, let me see. I was like, God.

Because you believed with every fiber of your being that she was in good, I really did. I really did. That's what I'm saying. Like, I was so not happy about that in that moment because I never get that stuff wrong. But it's okay. I never get that stuff wrong.

I'm really, like the child doctor. I don't want to brag, but I'm really good. with like, that kid was in whatever, season two of different strokes, and now their like guest appearance on CSI. We are connected because that's what I do all the time. And so that's why I was really ticked at myself because I was like, what? Okay. I want to find the actress that it was.

I'm like, okay. Okay, we're going to forget you were wrong about that one. No one has to know. No one has to know. Now everybody knows. After the break, Lena and I get to the beliefs round. Are you okay with the idea of being gone? Yes. Yeah, for sure.

Okay, round three. Okay. Final round. This is the beliefs round, okay? So we're getting into beliefs that shape the way you see the world. All right. Let's start with two. Two.

Oh, you already knew. You didn't even need me to do the counting. I'm learning it now. I'm learning the process. You're so smart. Do you think about the legacy you will leave behind? I do. I think about that every day.

Okay. This is fascinating to me. Yeah. And I think that, you know, our work outlives us. I know that. And so when I go, people will revisit Queen Islam. And they may see it through different eyes. They'll revisit the shy.

They'll revisit 20s. They'll go back to these things. Look, you do, when Prince dies, when Whitney Houston dies, when Michael Jackson dies. What do you do? You go back and listen to the music. it because that's what we have. But I also am believing that the people that come through the Hillman Grant Mentorship Lab and the directors, we give an opportunity to make their first film,

whether it be Roda Blank, A.V. Rockwell, or Justin Simeon, they are my legacy. Like, they, to me, represent what I was about. But I also know that the work that I put out is how I will be remembered. And so I really, when I think about what I want to be a part of, that's what I'm thinking about. Like, do I want someone to look back at this and say, this was a reflection of who she was? So a legacy is an idea, a construct that's bound by time, right? It's happening when you're thinking about it when you're gone. Are you okay with the idea of being gone? Yes. Have you made your peace with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Because what I know is, especially as we lose, you know, we've lost people and, you know, some people can be sanctified.

You know, I feel like when you die, all your sins kind of wash away for some. You know, I think about the book about Steve Jobs' life. It's literally a series of everyone he's pretty much ever met or interacted with telling the story about what their experience was with him. And everyone's experience could not have been more different. But that, to me, is such a reflection of someone's life, is that there may be a person who loved you, maybe a person that didn't like you very much. And I believe that both of their opinions are valid. Both of their experiences are true to them.

So when you go, I always say there'll be a person that will mourn at your grave and there'll be a person that will dance on it. And that's why I'm okay. Because both people have a right to do what they do it. You can mourn, you can celebrate. And that's just life. Yeah. Last question.

All right. One, two, three. Three new cards. Three last cards. I'm going to go with two. What's your best defense against despair? Ooh. I love this Baldwin quote.

He says, Nikki Giovanni, in a beautiful conversation there have, but she thinks she's a pessimist. And he says, no. You're a realist. You're cool. But you're not a pessimist. He's like, because you're alive. And I think my greatest, my biggest defense against despair is the fact that I'm alive.

I said, I'm here. And even though it can be a, it can feel like a curse, it is the greatest gift to be, to be earthside at this time. And you can't run away from despair. You can try. Yeah. You can try. I love the salon song, Crane's in the sky, because it's all about ways in which we try to run away.

So you can try to shop it away, smoke it away, you know, like sex to sext it away. You can't, you know. And many people, I think, try to. So in the particular, like for you, because we've all had it. For sure. The chapters are varying lengths of despair. But when it has come for you, how do you just sit there and say an affirmation? Like, I'm alive.

You look in the mirror. You pinch yourself. No, I'm absolutely human. I will, I'm a sleeper. I'm trying to sleep it away. I try to watch the comeback, you know, which is my favorite go-to. Lisa Kudrow, Michael Patrick King, like HBO. It is like, if you're ever sad.

That brings you back from the brinks of despair? No, it just reminds me of. like a character that is so flawed. But yet I love and root for so much. Like Valerie Cherish is a game-changing character for me. When I watch that show, you can't help but look at Valerie Cherish and go, all right, I'm all right. I'm okay.

I'll be all right, you know. It's like I just, that character and that show, the comeback, ladies and gentlemen, go find it on Max. Go find it somewhere. When you are in despair, despair, go out. go watch the first season to come back, okay? And you will be like, what am I experiencing and I feel better now? Because I'm laughing and also like completely have secondhand embarrassment.

You won the game. Just want to tell you. I won? Okay. Fantastic. You won the game. What do I win? Yeah, what does she win?

So you get a prize, and the prize is a trip in our memory time machine. Oh. Okay. Okay. It's a magical prize. It's a magical prize. In the time machine, you get to revisit one moment from your past. Oh, man.

A moment you would not change anything about. It is just a moment where you want to linger a little longer. Oh. All right. Dang, a moment I wouldn't change. I mean, because you're producing this right now. I'm producing in my head. I'm like, which moment do I give?

Jeez, Louise. Just go with the one that's like. like in your brain right now. Okay. Stop it. Stop the wheel. Okay. Okay.

I'm stopping it. I'm stopping it. I think I got to go with, I was like in my apartment and I got a call for my then agent telling me that I got master of none. And we went to like the 7-Eleven to get some snacks to like celebrate. Wait, with your age? No, no, no, no. He called me on the phone. He called you.

He called you. He called you. But you said we went to. Yeah, my ex. Okay. We walked. And I think what I like about that moment is that it was so innocent. And I, and there was nothing on it.

I wasn't like, oh, this is going to do this for me. I wonder, or I bet. It was just, oh, okay, all right. So I'm going to go do this thing. And, yeah, you know, my ex and I were just really happy, and it was just exciting. But there was no pressure. And that was really a beautiful moment. I just remember feeling just happy and calm and curious about what was to come.

And, yeah. What were the snacks? What were the snacks? That's why I wish I could. Probably sunflower seeds, you know, for sure. Flavored? Flavored sunflower seeds? Like barbecue? Probably if a ranch or something.

You know what I mean? And like some, a drink and like some candy, you know, it's just. All three food groups. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was right there. You know, that 7-Eleven, you know, got a lot of traffic from me. Lena Waite, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much for doing this.

so much for pulling so much out of me today. I appreciate it. I hope, I hope this conversation sparked something and somebody. Yeah, me too. Me too. If you want more with Lena Waith, we've got a Wild Card Plus episode you should check out with a bonus question where she talks about an expression of love that she's trying to get better at. Me being vulnerable and being completely honest. Also in the Plus episode, comedian Taylor Tomlinson talks about who she modeled herself after when she was a kid. You'll also hear what has been on my mind since I had those conversations with Taylor and Lena. And what about them really stuck with me? Wildcard Plus is this new way to support our show and public radio. And you get other perks like sponsor-free listening. Check it out by going to

plus.npr.npr.org slash wildcard. Next week on Wildcard, we get a look at the darker side of Ted Danson. I wish I hadn't become a liar and walked out the back door, you know, early in life. I wish that hadn't been me. This episode was produced by Cher Vincent and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Cecil Davis-Bosquez and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. WildCard's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romteen Arableuie. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.