Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Marc Maron would still like some validation

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

Marc Maron can project cynical misanthrope, but those who have spent countless hours listening to him know that his secret weapon is his vulnerability. He tells Rachel why he's ending his podcast "WTF" despite its enduring popularity and why he's as committed as ever to his work as a standup. His latest special, "Panicked," is out next month. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Just a heads up, as you might suspect, from a guy who hosts a podcast called WTF. This episode has got some strong language. What period of your life do you often daydream about? I don't know that I do. Is that right? I think I reflect on things at times. I wouldn't call it daydreaming. I can honestly say there's never been a better time in my life.

And I'm not even sure this one is that great. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is comic Mark Merrin. Do I feel on some level that I should be recognized more as a comic? Yeah, I guess, but I also know that I just know that I'm not everybody's thing. Mark Maren projects cynical misanthrope, and maybe that is his baseline.

But in my opinion, what's made him so good as a podcaster is his ability to be vulnerable and his capacity for loving other human beings. That's why WTF, which he recently decided to end, it's why that show became one of the biggest and most beloved podcasts of all time. It's also what sets his comedy apart. He's got a new stand-up special out on HBO August 1st. It is called Panicked. And I'm beyond thrilled to welcome Mark Maren to welcome Mark Marn to

wild card. Hello. Hi. Thanks for being here. Sure. Here we go. First round, memories, first three cards. One, two, or three? Two. Two. Where did you get to feel independent as a kid? Well, I guess I felt the most independent at this job I had at a restaurant across from the university. A place called the Posh Bagel. It was across from University of New Mexico. So I was like 14 or probably 15 making sandwiches, doing some managing. But it was kind of a groovy place. So I was kind of in the hub of the college scene. And I kind of made the rounds around there and became sort of a fixture of that

neighborhood as a teenager and a young teenager. And it kind of made me feel more grown up. It inspired me to want to do art and understand. music and books and movies and people. Not the Posh Bagel, but the larger kind of university scene? Yeah, the few blocks. It was like just a few blocks there in Albuquerque, you know. But there was some, I think it was really the place where I sort of came into contact

for the first time with, you know, stoner culture, all that stuff that was going on and probably, what was it, the late 70s? And it was kind of the, a lot of it was the template for, for, for, who I became, I think. There was a bookstore down the street that the owner became very important in my life as inspiration and mentor, the great Gus Blaisdale, Living Batch Books. Did you just wander in there one day and start up a conversation with him? Yeah, he was sort of this, you know, intense kind of, you know, he was a very smart guy. He taught at the university, and he was sort of oversaw this little fairly well-created bookstore.

and, you know, I just wanted to talk to him. And over the years, he would eventually talk to me. I remember it was a big deal when he finally said he'd actually have coffee with me. But he was a very funny guy and a very smart guy, and I think he inspired me to be that. It's kind of interesting that you felt you had the wherewithal to ask like a grown-up, right? Like, you were just a kid, to have coffee? I don't think I knew I was a kid. I mean, I did take a couple of years for Gus to kind of treat me not as an equal,

but as a grown-up. It was probably not until I, you know, was either back from my first year of college or second year of college. But, you know, I kind of spent a lot of time in that bookstore. But there was also a restaurant right next door on Central in Albuquerque called the Frontier Restaurant, which at the time was this 24-hour, you know, freak show.

And it was just this large kind of southwestern-themed restaurant. But I think it took, it kind of played the role of a all-night diner kind of thing. And during high school, we would spend so much time there, like at night, because it was open to late. So I'd sit there with friends, and we'd just kind of talk and hang out and smoke and, you know, do the thing. So it was all, it was kind of the center of the universe. My buddy, Ty, had a theory that it was actually the center of the universe. He was a smart guy.

I don't know if I believed him. Certainly the center of our universe at that time. Okay. Thank you for that. Uh-huh. Three new cards. One, two, three. One.

What's a memorable road trip from when you were a kid? Uh-huh. Well, there was a time. My old man was a surgeon, and we used to go, there were these conferences up in usually ski areas. So we'd go as a family, you know, once or twice a year. drive up to these ski areas. We drive up in that big Capri station wagon, me and my dad, my mom, and my brother. And I remember coming back, there was this mountain pass that was kind of harrowing.

And it was snowing. It was a snowstorm. And my dad, in New Mexico, you guys. got your driver's license when you were 15. So I couldn't have been much older than that, maybe 16. So coming back down the past, my dad asked me if I wanted to drive. And it was a snowstorm. And it was kind of a scary drive. Because he was over it or he wanted to test you? Or what was that about it? I don't know. I think he was just, you know, he just wanted me to step up. I don't know if it was test me, but he wanted to give me the opportunity. You know, and you should

learn how to drive in that stuff. It's true. And I was, so he let me drive. And I remember at the time, because I was already smoking cigarettes when I was 15, and I couldn't smoke around my family, really. So I had this huge bag of sunflower seeds. And I was just eating them compulsively and spitting out the shells. And driving through this blizzard on this mountain pass.

And my mother was terrified. My brother was nervous. But my dad was kind of like, you can do it, just go slow. And I'm just eating these sunflower seeds. And the reason I remember it, we made it, obviously, was that my mom remembers it, you know, out of all the things. You know, she's in her 80s. Yeah. But she remembers, you know, those sunflower seeds and just how terrifying the whole experience was.

But I guess that was a pretty important road trip when I was a kid. Yeah. Was that the kind of dad he was? Someone who was pretty good at seeing opportunities to give you and see if you could pass that test? No, no, I don't. No, he definitely wasn't really. good at that. He was more of erratic, slightly emotional and relatively mentally unstable and kind of absent kind of dad. But he was pretty exciting. All those things are pretty exciting.

You know, it's interesting to have a dad that, you know, is a bit on the bipolar side and, you know, kind of dealing with mania here and there and, you know, getting into that energy. Well, that's what it feels like to me. Like, I've got a couple of kids. And I would, would not choose a blizzardy mountain pass as the day that I was going to, like, test my kid on whether or not they could get us from point A to point B. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Roll the dice. Yeah.

Let's see if he can do it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it was a disciplined decision. But I think he probably got a kick out of it somehow. And I think he genuinely wanted to see if I can do it. I don't think he was necessarily competing. with me, but I think he, in his way, he was trying to teach me something.

Yeah. Three more cards. One, two or three. All right. Three. Three. Three. What period of your life do you often daydream about?

I don't, I don't know that I do. Is that right? I think I reflect on things at times. I don't, I wouldn't call it daydreaming. I think certain things spark memories. And I think that I'm in a. perpetual a state of kind of assessing periods in my life and who I was in those periods. But I'm not really nostalgic. And I think that daydreaming about a period of one's life

would imply nostalgia or some sort of yearning or looking back at a better time. I can honestly say there's never been a better time in my life. And I'm not even sure this one is that great. So occasionally, I think I'm more prone to kind of look at whatever triggers my kind of going back. I'm always fascinated about like, who was that guy? How did that guy get through that? Right. So I guess really reflecting on that, you know, like the period of. time when I was a doorman at the comedy store, which was very, you know, infused with drugs and

insanity. And then there's also times like, you know, when I was in college and with my first girlfriend and that insanity, you know, I tried to have some compassion for that guy, but also, you know, a certain amount of acknowledgement of, you know, bad behavior or being, you know, angry and not really paying attention to the people around me and a lot of stuff of. But how did what's the through line that you've been able to articulate in how you managed all those different transitions, whether it was like the drugs and insanity of the comedy store or other really difficult. Yeah, toxic relationships.

Like what is the personality trait or the tool or the specific person who gave you guidance? What's the thing that? that continues to be the lifeline for you over all those episodes? I think my journey has always been about kind of being my full self somehow or finding myself, you know, but not in a hokey way. Yeah. You know, in a very real way, I think that because of the nature of my parents' emotional sort of manipulation.

Like, I don't want to say manipulation, very self-centered people that were not good at parenting. And they were, I was just sort of an extension of their worries and needs. Yeah. So I believe that through most of my life, I was not fractured, but kind of missing a piece that would have enabled me to be grounded in myself. And because of that, my journey has always been to arrive there. I think that's really why I did stand up. You know, there was a certain amount of fear of the world that I had. And for some reason, I think stand-up put me in a position to own myself. So in all these fraught periods of my life, I was, you know, preemptively, you know, defensive and hostile and pushing buttons and just trying to, you know, kind of keep pushing out there, sometimes in toxic ways, sometimes in shocking ways. Very rarely in compassion. ways. But I think through all that, you know, bucking and thrashing, I started to see who I was

at the center of all that. And I think emotionally, I was a, and I think I am emotionally, probably a lot younger than I'd like to be. And I think that I wrote a line once. I don't know, I think I used it in a special years ago. The monster I created to protect the child inside me is sometimes hard to manage. Let's take a break from the game. Congrats on your special. Thank you. I mean, it is, you're in one of my favorite places

because it seems to me you're like on the cusp of a new thing, of a new chapter of your life. Like you're wrapping up WTF after 16 odd years. Yeah. And you got a new special. I mean, you turn out specials. It's not like you haven't done special a while. But you're still at a big moment, right?

Does it feel like that to you? I guess. Big, in what way? To stop a thing that you have dedicated so much of your life to in this show. And it's a show that, I mean, you didn't just dedicate your life. It chronicles your life. Yeah. And it would seem to me that by saying goodbye to that.

And like reconnecting was like, you're a standout. Like, let's get back on the stage. Like, let's get in the mix with an audience. That never went away. It never went away. I never stopped, you know, doing stand-up. It was always the priority in my life. You know, from the beginning of the podcast, I, you know,

it was very hard for me to transition into this role of, you know, talking to people and, you know, surrendering stage. And once people started to know me from the podcast, I started to accept that I was this conversationalist that people listened to twice a week. And I also wanted them to come see the comedy. But the comedy was always the most important thing in terms of what I set out to do. And what you wanted to be valued for. Yeah, the podcast was this other thing that I did in a fairly desperate moment, time where the stand-up was.

working out. You know, like at the beginning of the podcast, I felt that I was on the other side, if not, you know, fading into obscurity as a stand-up. So they both sort of coexisted and both sort of elevated. The podcast, I think, is probably bigger than my stand-up, you know, culturally. Yeah. Is that sort of a hard thing to reckon with? Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, it is. But I do know, as I get older, that the stand-up I'm doing, I know it's the best I've done. You know, the last special, this one too. I'm definitely at the top of my game, and I know that. Do I feel on some level that I should be recognized more as a comic?

Yeah, I guess, but I also know that I just know that I'm not everybody's thing, and I know that I do things that guarantee that. Did becoming this very, very skilled conversationalist, which involves a lot of listening and not talking, did that change your comedy? Did that help your observational powers? I think so. I mean, look, in going back to these connections I've been making recently in conversations about who I was growing up and my need to talk to people and my need to engage with people, which has always been. in there. Like, if you listen to my podcasts, and I've known this for years, if I'm talking to somebody with a strong personality, which is many people, but they have either a way of talking or an

accent that I will appropriate it within five or ten minutes of talking to them. There are many shows, whether I'm talking to, you know, an old Jewish man or an African American person that, you know, at some point, my producer is very sensitive to it. Because sometimes it, it's subtle, but I will take on their vocal attribute. Totally. I get it. I completely get it. Yeah.

It's an act of generosity, although it can kind of come off as weird sometimes. It's not consciously. No, it's not consciously generous. I don't think I'm trying to do something. I think that... I think you're trying to, like, sympathize with that person. You're trying to, like, make them comfortable. Right.

I don't know if that's true. I think I want to be them. I mean, I'd like to believe that. I had the type of boundaries and control that you're implying. But I think that the way they seem to be seems in that moment or in my mind to be kind of more interesting than me. So, and very early on, you know, I was very, and I still am. I'm an interrupting conversationalist. I do press myself in.

And that's out of the same intention that it is about conversation, but, you know, but it's also about me. So there's this mixture of me wanting to be other people and then me wanting them to see me and then me wanting to connect with them. Yeah. Yeah. But very little that, you know, comes from a controlled place initially. It was just me like, you know, like, you know, if somebody's talking too long, part of me sort of like I'm disappearing.

Hey, well, let me say something now. I'm going to say some things. But that's a conversation. That is a conversation. but I also think you're not alone in feeling more seen and heard and understood in relationship to another person. I mean, I guess there are a handful of people who are like, I am a self-contained, happy functioning unit here. But most of us are happy and find meaning and purpose in relationship to other people, whether those are long-term relationships or whether they're just like a short-term, like I'm going to talk to for an hour for this show. Yeah, it's a big part.

It's a huge part of my kind of social, spiritual, psychological life. I think that in conversation, I've certainly over time become a much more empathetic listener. And I find that I, you know, really emotionally connect. And I do feel very close to the person by the end of it. And that's kind of an interesting, you know, heartbreaking part of that whole. endeavor is that because of the type of conversations I have with people, it's really, we do get kind of close. And then they just go.

They just leave your life. You just walk out of your garage. That's right. And there's times where I'm like, I should be friends with that guy. You know, and then you're like, he's a big actor. What are you going to just call him? You know? So there are very few people that I actually pursued friendships with it.

But the couple that I did, I definitely, I'm glad I did. It's weird though, right? You're like, was this like a summer camp romance? Or are we like, for real? Are we going to be for real friends? Yeah, there's there is that feeling. It doesn't have quite the foundation of summer camp romance. But it does feel very connected and like a real exchange of feelings and thoughts.

You can agree with that? Are you already preemptively? Yeah, no, I think I'm in it now. But there is an allation to it. You know, I think the grieving is, you know, we're ready to stop. There comes a time where, you know, you can either look at what you produce as disposable and just, you know, throwing it into, you know, the kind of, you know, ever-churning zeitgeist garbage bin of content.

And, you know, but we never really approached it like that. And, you know, the arc of this thing is that, you know, we did all right in the end here. And it just becomes a question is, you know, why keep doing something just because you can or just because you do? You know, it's never really been, we did, there was no way to make money at the beginning of this. So that was never our intention. Our intention seemed to be not even high-minded just to do a great thing and to, and to do it as well as we could. And, you know, so the money came and the attention came, and we did okay, and it's just, it's okay to stop things, you know. You don't want things to either, you know, fade away or, you know, kind of, you know, become, the quality becomes dubious or...

Stop because of external forces that make you. Like, you can do it on your own terms. Right. Round two. Three new cards. One, two or three. Three. Have you ever had a nemesis? Yeah, I always have a nemesis. I always have one.

Most of that is fueled by resentment, insecurity, jealousy, or whatever. But I've always had nemesises for different reasons. But yeah, I always have a nemesis. You must find utility in it. No, it's habit. And it's the never-ending sort of, you know, struggle against acting out of insecurity or resentment, self-acceptance. But for years, John Stewart was my nemesis. I mean, for most of my, you know, professional life.

I always was like, you know, when I was coming up as a comic, you know, he had figured it out. He had, you know, I always used to think it was just because he committed to a haircut and, you know, a way of presenting. but like he was just everywhere. He was a... A news as satire and that was like a space you wanted to be in. Yeah, and he was a stand-up, but like, yeah, but he was just coming up, he was everywhere. He was the king of the thing, you know, politics, satire, whatever. And it was just, you know, I was just, there was a jealousy to it, but, you know, but, you know, it got consuming.

But it went on a long time and, you know, you know, he knew it. and we've had confrontations about it. And, you know, and we are not friends. And that was, it was always the case. And, you know, sure, it was jealousy. It was resentment. And it was me being kind of, you know, small-minded. But it went on a long time.

Do you find your way to admiring something about him in the end? Can you step back from that and look at him objective? and say, no, you're good at that thing. And I do a different thing, and I do me. Sometimes. I mean, I think over the arc of it, the fact that he's kind of like everybody landed with a podcast, that's satisfying.

But no. Been there? Done that. Your friend, Mark Merritt. Help create it. I'll tell you, I'll tell you honestly. And, And I don't know that, yeah, why not?

So, you know, early on in the podcast, you know, a lot of it was built on, you know, me kind of trying to make amends with people. I thought I had offended or that I had problems with, you know, mostly people in my community. And there was a point there where, you know, and John and I had been through it. And, you know, there was, there's no relationship there. And, you know, he does not particularly like me. I don't think it's a daily thing. But, you know, I annoyed him to the point where that was reality. But early on in the podcast, I remember because I was recording the Gallagher episode.

I was in Portland, Oregon in a hotel room. And I was like, I should, you know, reach out to John because, you know, we've got this historical problem, or at least I do. and, you know, we could, I could, we could work it out on the air. It'd be great. It's, it's like exactly what I do now. All right. So I, I reached out to him. And I remember, you know, he called me back. I was in a hotel room in Portland. And he goes, hey, you know, it's John Stewart. I'm like, hey, man, how are you doing? Um, you know, and he's like, I'm fine. What's up? And I said, look, you know, I'm doing this podcasting. And, you know, I just, you know, there's a lot of people I'm kind of working out things with and kind of making an amends and stuff. And I thought it would be great if, you know, you and I, you know, did that. And he goes, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm not doing that. You know, I'm not.

He said, look, you know, it's like whatever you're doing, you know, there's no love here. And then he said, you know, I'm sure what you're doing is very creative. But, you know, I'm just, there's just no love here. And I'm like, got it, dude. And yeah, so I guess it was pretty creative. Next three, one, two, three. Oh, one. What do you feel as if you're constantly chasing?

I guess it's some form of external validation, which is ridiculous. But, you know, it's real. You know, I've done a lot of things in a lot of different mediums. and I'm, you know, and I've done a good job with a lot of them. You know, I still think I have, you know, but, you know, I talk about this with my producer. It's like, you know, we won. We did great. We helped create something, a medium.

We made something singular. You know, my comedy is singular. You know, all this stuff. I get all that. But there is something about the validation of your peers or some external recognition, you know, outside of, an audience when you work in a creative profession. And it all seems, and no matter how much you rationalize it, you know, like there are things that I'm still, you know, not hung up on, but, you know, I'm disappointed about and a bit

angered about it. The fact that, you know, WTF never got a P-Body is a fucking crime. It's a fucking crime. So, but whatever. Do you know what I mean? You know, I had a president, a sitting president, come to my garage, and that wasn't worthy. You know, I know. I get it.

I get it. You don't want to be attached to those external metrics of success, but it's also hard not to be. But it's like it's an external metric of success, but it's an acknowledgement from a supposedly revered institution that recognizes, you know, what you do. aren't in anymore, Mark Marin. No, no, no, I get all that. I get it's just a group of people, you know, that, you know, one of them could not like me. Yeah. You know, that, you know, the voters are whoever does the voting when it comes to Emmys or whatever, I get all that.

Yeah. But there is something about that that is like, I've never won anything, really. You know, we've got a big podcasting award, you know, from the governors of whatever. And, you know, in the library of Congress stuff, there have been little. That's a thing. Things like that. No, it's a thing. But there are these things that you grow up with that, you know, you kind of want that recognition.

And, you know, I've accepted that I'm not the guy that wins anything. And I do believe I did great work in that it's not about, it's not a meritocracy. It's not based on anything but a group of people who have their own sort of shortcomings, you know, voting their feelings. Yeah. I get it. We got one more round. Beliefs. One, two, or three.

Two. What's a place you consider sacred? Oh, well. Well, certainly that original garage where I did the podcast, that was really a pretty sacred space. It was a very unique space, but I had to let that go. That was kind of hard. Yeah. And then moving into the new house, which doesn't have the same.

you know, kind of organic nature that that place had just from all the clutter and everything else. I think that's a pretty sacred space or it was. What did the original Cat Ranch garage look and smell like? Well, there was just hundreds of old books and pieces of art and bits of Chotchkes and just like just layers and layers of stuff. So I had that smell of kind of like slow. lowly decaying books. And, you know, and it had, you know, there was a rug in there. It was just like everything that I had amassed in the form of knickknacks and books and things

and, you know, random pieces of art from my whole life were kind of in there. And at some point it was like it was like a museum of me. And like I didn't, you know, clean it that much other than vacuum it. So it kind of got that kind of dusty. vibe of an old roadside museum. And I had to, at some point, you know, really do a more thorough dusting. Had a musty kind of vibe to it. Also, I'm a little woo-woo.

And I feel like in a space, physical space like that that has a personality and identity, and then you layer upon it all the conversations, the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of conversations. And the people's energy that is in that space, in that chair, in that mic. that's heavy good stuff. Yeah, yeah, I remember when I'd vacuum and I'd get all this dust up, I'm like, so many skin for... Totally. Totally.

I know some people were like, that's so gross. But I'm like, what if there was like President Obama's fingernail in that stuff? Sure. Or just like they say a lot of dust is like skin. Yeah. Yeah, no, I thought about that all the time. Yeah, there's a magic to it. Three more cards.

One, two, or three. One. When do you feel connected to the people you've lost? Sometimes it's random. With people who are my peers that I have died, and there's a lot of them. And so many of them were funny people. I can think about their funniness, their jokes, my experience with them. you know and then they become alive again you know pretty quickly um with the deeper one

and there's really just one primary one with lynchelton you know it's just thinking about this for people who don't know lynn was your longtime friend collaborator collaborator and then and then love big love yeah yeah with her it was just you know that feeling of uh the way she kind of saw me, that, you know, her belief in me and her kind of, you know, almost obsessive, you know, love for me, you know, that when I was in the light of that, I really felt like I was my best self. So if I can think of her just, you know, watching me, you know, do whatever it is I do, you know, that's when I feel connected. And also I have like a few things of hers that are around.

So she's always kind of around. Yeah. It took me a long time to give away my mom's clothes. I kept them in my closet for probably much longer than, well, there's still some things in there. Yeah, I kept a few things. I kind of distributed a lot of stuff to people that loved her. and then her friends kind of took a lot of stuff. But I have a few select items.

It's funny for, I don't know about you, but the random things that I ended up keeping, I have a butter dish from my mom. So weird. Not a thing. I even ever associated with it. But it's like, there's the obvious stuff that I could have kept, like, a jewelry or like, I don't know, a blanket, something. And it's like, I look at this butter dish that she gave me that I didn't

want because I didn't want a life with butter dishes. But she gave this to me. So it was kind of like a gift with some baggage. And yet there is the thing. And every time I look at the butter dish, I think of her. And then I get emotional in a good way. I have my grandma's melon baller. That's a good grandma thing. Yeah. And I have, yeah, I have wins. I have one of, you know, she wore a very specific hat and she had a few of them. I have one of those. I have one of those. I have the shirt that she wore when I met her. And, you know, for a while there, maybe a couple of years, you know, in my, the main hallway, when you walk into my house, there's a coat rack, and I had her hat and this leather jacket

that she loved hanging and then her red cowboy boots. But it was almost like, you know, it's almost the size of her. So, like, I'd walk in and it'd just be those things, which defined her in a lot of ways. Eventually I had to move it And I eventually gave the jacket To somebody who loved her And who I thought You know, would really appreciate it

It was kind of a big moment I gave it to Rosemary DeWitt Who was in one of Lynn's films And in a fitter, you know And I was like, that's, you know That should be yours But yeah, I have the, you know I have some pieces of art

And I will say it's a It's a really powerful thing to be able to feel her when you feel yourself being whatever your best version the self that you are most proud of because of her yeah and when you feel like you are living the best version of your life is when you feel connected to her and that's it's a really special thing that i'm sure that she would feel very proud of having not known her yeah i i i hope so mark merrin we end the show the same way every time with the trip on our memory time machine. In this memory time machine, you will pick one moment in your past to

revisit. It is not a moment you would change anything about. It is just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose? I guess I would choose that first time that I met Lynn when she came on the podcast. There's something immediately that you knew. Oh, that you were just drawn to? Oh, yeah, for sure, yeah. Did the conversation go on after you stopped the taping? A bit. A bit.

Did you linger? Sure. Yeah, we talked. But it was just like one of those things in my mind. But I had somehow known that it was going to be something special. You know, nothing could, you know, we just became friends, but, but, uh, but I, I knew something. And yeah, it took, it took years to really kind of materialize, but, um, and it was all a big struggle and, and, uh, you know, it was a challenge, but yeah, it was kind of, you know, that was, that was the good moment. There, you know, there was some bad moments that I'd, I'd probably

like to linger in too. Just so I know that because, you know, I got through him. Mark Marin, longtime host of the WTF podcast. He's got a new comedy special. It is called Panicked. It's out on HBO August 1st.

It's been a real pleasure for me to get to do this. Thank you. Me too. Thank you. If you like this conversation, go back and listen to my episode with another kermudgeon with a big open heart, Brett Goldstein. He's best known for playing Roy Kent on Ted Lasso.

And like that character, Brett's gruff exterior is just a decoy. You can check that one out on our YouTube page. Just search for Wildcard with Rachel Martin. Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray and Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolonna Sangweni, and our theme music is by Rom Team Arablewee. You can reach out to us at Wildcar.

at npr.org. We'll stuff with the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.