Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Matthew McConaughey

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Matthew McConaughey likes finding the rhythm in every role he takes – whether it’s delivering a monologue in “The Wolf of Wall Street” or a tearful goodbye in “Interstellar.” And now, as author of the book “Poems & Prayers,” he is finding the rhythm and prose in his own life, and sharing what he’s learned. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Just a heads up, there is some strong language in this episode. Has ambition ever led you astray? Oh, hell yeah. Oh, geez. I can over-leverage myself within my ambition. Okay. I love to accomplish. Mm-hmm.

It gives me significance. Mm-hmm. Makes you feel significant. Significate. I need significance. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest, answers questions about their life.

Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is Matthew McConaughey. I believe because I have proven to myself that I can take on more than I thought I could. But what can happen and where ambitions let me stray is you end up with a bunch of brick and campfires

and no bonfires. I was thinking about what sets Matthew McConaughey apart from all his peers. He's obviously very good at capital A acting. and has the awards to show it, including an Oscar for his role in Dallas Buyers Club. He's got that aw, shucks, Texas charm that made him a surefire bed at the box office whenever he popped up in a rom-com. But besides the personality and the skill, what stands out to me in every McConaughey performance is the rhythm of it. There's a swing and a swagger and how he delivers his lines.

It's like a call and response kind of thing, but he's doing both the calling and the responding. You hear it now. He says goodbye to his daughter and Interstellar. his money monologue in the Wolf of Wall Street. And if you want to hear it in its most raw form, treat yourself to a rewatch of the 1993 classic Dazed and Confused. So when Matthew McConaughey puts out a book of poetry, it totally makes sense to me. He's always been living in the rhythm of things.

I'm so happy to welcome Matthew McConaughey to Wildcard. Hi. Hey, I like that. Hey, yeah? Yeah, the rhythm of things, the musicality. Calls and responses. Yeah. I think that's kind of your voice.

I should say the name of the book. It's called Poems and Prayers by Matthew McConaughey. We're going to talk explicitly about it after round one, but congratulations in the meantime. Thank you. So you ready? Uh-huh. Okay. Round one, memories, first three cards.

You, Matthew, pick. One, two, or three. I pick, but I don't know what's on them. That's why. Of course you don't. Three, one closest to you. your hand, yes, that one. How similar are you to your siblings? Oh, how similar to my siblings? Older brother, Mike, named Rooster, which is really stuck. I think Rooster's almost, maybe 70-something now.

Pat was adopted. He was my Rooster's 10-year-old birthday present. Rooster wanted a little brother for his 10-year-old birthday, so Mom and Dad adopted Pat. He met his home in Dallas. Oh, here you go. Yeah, here we go. Happy birthday. And then years went by, they tried to have another child. Nothing stuck for five, six years. And then one lucky night. And I think it was slot number 72 in Fort Davis, Texas.

It was a good night from Mom and Dad and something stuck. And here I come nine months later. And Mom thought I was a tumor for the first five months. How am I like him? They're good storytellers. You know, it's very interesting because where, you learn something with an adopted sibling. Like how much is DNA and how much is environment?

There are certain things that, Pat, the middle one, just doesn't have that rooster and I have. There are certain things that he has that we don't have. And that was all DNA because it was the same exact environment. Humor. Humor is in the top probably three or four for me and my brothers. We really have always sort of to cut sentimentality out of things or to cut a crisis down by its ankles, use humor in a very healthy way. And it's almost never, what's the word, out of, it's almost never the wrong time in our family.

We will tell the jokes, while the wound is still fresh, bam, that's when we're hitting it. And making sure to. Doesn't hurt people's feelings? Not in our family. And I say this all the time, but what bruises my family who might break other people's arms, it was inherent to our family, especially if someone has a little self-conscious thing

that they're trying to hide, or you catch somebody in our family acting, like, you know, they're all this. Our family will cut you, find your weak spot, cut you down until you cry uncle. And as soon as you cry uncle and admit it, we hoist you up and mix you your favorite dream. You were the baby.

I was the baby. Were you ridiculed? Were you the victim of that kind of mockery? I was the golden boy to them. Mama's boy got away with more, but I remind them all the time. No, I just learned from you to watch town where you got caught. It's got away with stuff better. So I was, yeah, mama's boy, raised more by my mom probably primarily than they were.

Because of the dad, business got good and he was on the road more. Got very close to my mom. was able to get close to my dad in the last couple years of his life. And in our family, there's one thing that's that's sincere and always there with my brothers is they're like, hey, your little brother, you want an Oscar. But who you are, they're not excited or overly impressed. They're less impressed by success. All of us are not. when we succeed, everyone goes, about time.

Or, yeah, thought you would, you know, or cool. But it's never, I think it's an inherent thing that never, we never really let material things or mortal achievements outside of just who we are and our character be what, oh, now I'm worth more. And if we achieve something in life and think we're worth more because of that, that's the time where my family will pound you down. knock you down until you cry uncle and then lift you up and mix you a drink i love it sounds like you're a nice family to grow up and okay three new cards one two or three three three

what period of your life do you often daydream about wow what period of my life that often daydream about eight years old euvality texas in a diaper was i in a diaper at eight Wait, I hope you weren't in a diaper at eight. Hang on. So what's something wrong? Either the age or the diaper. Let me go back. I think it was the age.

Because... Okay, diapers are... You're a parent, you know this. Diapers are up to like, oh, two, three. You know what? I'm remembering now. It was in the daydream. I was eight years old in the diaper.

But in reality, I was eight, and it was shorts. Blue Jean cut off shorts. No shirt, no shoes. Front yard. Not backyard. Huge pecan tree on Getty Street, the big five-lane street, the main drag through Evaldi. And the St. Augustine, even in the summer, you know, St. Augustine has a very deep roots, and St. Augustine grass needs more water than, like, Bermuda and stuff, right?

Okay. Grass, but the roots are really deep. And I remember it was the place I would go to cool off because you can sink your toes down in St. Augustine, and the roots are always cool, no matter how hot the summer day was. Under that pecan tree, finding a pecan, cracking it open, having a pecan that tasted like dessert falling from the tree in that front yard. My mom being able to not even have her eye on me in the front yard, even though there was no fence between me and the five-lane street that was so busy because I understood the rule. You don't go past the sidewalk. That was along right before the curb.

My oldest brother coming by and me out there in the yard and me hearing. Way off in the distant screen right. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And they're getting louder and louder and louder. Me knowing what it was going to be. And then me looking for more pecans to grab a hold up because right as they was getting near me, it was him and his buddies coming in a car with the windows rolled down.

And right when it would get in front of me driving by at 35 miles an hour, they'd be moaning me out the car and they'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And on cue, no, no, no, no, fat man. Then I'd be whirr and throw those pecans out. I'm at the cross the street. And then they'd drive by, no, no, no, no, no. And it'd fade off, screen left.

Whoa. This is very specific daydreaming. Because I had a nice little belly. And I was like, oh, but it's so mad that they'd call me fat man. But at the same time, because it was my older brother, so kind of honored that they took time out of their day. That's right. You were to mock you. Yeah.

Little brother. Yeah. I love that that was the first memory that came to the top of your mind. That would be another example talking about siblings and talking about humor. Like, I remember even then feeling like that was a compliment. As angry as I was that they were calling me fat man. As much as I was throwing those pecans at their car across the street, I felt kind of honored that my older brother was taking time out of his day with his friends to Hay's little brother.

This is a hard one. I have two boys, and it's hard to teach kids. Oh, no. even in the mocking, the fact that your brother's paying attention to you, just try to reframe that, you know, just try to reframe. Yeah, and I think it's even true. I mean, there's plenty of other things that could have been doing. He cared enough about me to mess with me.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like when girls flirt with you and they, like, you know, like pulling your hair or whatever. Yeah, what are you doing? Oh, I can't stand there. Yeah, you can. Yeah. You kind of like it.

You kind of like it. All right. Last one in this round. Oh, yeah. One. One, two of the, oh, you're already new. One. What do you admire about your teenage self?

Mm-hmm. Teenage self. This is probably what I admire most. So I was straight A's student council, most handsome, popular. You do say so yourself. Okay? No, I got, they gave me the word. Yeah.

They said, but, and I was. It was also the two fights I got in in high school were taken up for the sort of school runt. The one they all called the runt. There's this little black kid with the big afro and guys would always pick on him. And I got in the fights taken up for him. I was really good friends with Betty Rice. She was the one gothic girl in our school. Everyone thought she was a lesbian.

And that was all on guard, right? And she was really cool. And I really liked her and she liked me. She wasn't in any of those popular groups, nor was the one they were calling the run. I befriended who became my best friend later on, a guy Rob Benner, my Jewish buddy, who I met him in art class. And so where my life was, hey, let's go out, popular group, Friday night, tailgate, get a keg, chase girls, da-da-da-da-da. My life was extremely extroverted.

He introduced me, Rob introduced me to, where do we go to my house and watch a movie? Place a ping pong. Talk about life. Talk about what we're going to do after high school. We go to his place. We'd watch a movie. He's working on a script, a movie script.

He's the one that went to NYU who called me and gave me the confidence to say, when I said, I don't want to go to law school anymore. I'm thinking about film. was the one going, you should. You're writing good stories. You got good character. You're a good looking guy. Maybe you think about it in front of the camera.

I couldn't think about that at the time, but he gave me the confidence to go in to go to film school, which I probably wouldn't be sitting here if I didn't do that. So the fact that I was, I had friends in different circles in many, many different circles and would then include a lot of them in my very popular social circles and then would go spend time with them. Well, to learn from people who weren't at the center of social norms and mainstream acceptance. That wasn't that much difference.

Yeah. I mean, that was the, that was the main thing. You know, they were getting chastised or put on the outskirts because of their looks or their form of fashion or what's that nose ring or why you wear in that makeup and, oh, she must be gay. or, oh, he's short. He's got that big fro. You know what I mean?

And he's a run. He's down, let's pick, let's thump him on the head going by every time. I think I got that. Probably, I don't know how much that was in me DNA, but probably my dad was a big take-up for the underdog. Not as a savior, but he always just loved the underdog. And I've even to, in my life, enjoyed putting myself in the position of the underdog. Have you played an underdog? Well, I played a lot of underdogs.

Think of the outcast that I've played. People on the fringes. Yeah, that's true. Not adhering to the manners and graces of the world, but having to try and hustle to survive. I love being in that underdog position. Shoot, similar to people ask me about that chest-thumping awful Wall Street. I'd do that before a lot of scenes.

But what I'd do that for is to relax my voice, get out of my head, but also to have the room and the crew go, what's the weirdo doing? People, not everyone knows this, but before you did that monologue in the Wolf of Wall Street. I'm banging my chest here. Yeah. Uh-huh. To relax my voice, to deepen my voice, to get my instrument working through my body. Get out of my head.

I'm nervous. Yeah. Right? I work with Scorsese and DiCaprio for the first time. I'm stepping in for one day. They're a well-oiled machine. And here I come, and I've got this scene I'm really excited about, but I'm trying to get out of my head, so I'm going to find the rhythm.

And that character is a very rhythm guy. We talk about music as you did in the introduction. I want to get out of my head. I want to get past the nurse. I also want to paint myself in a corner that I've got to dig out of. I want everyone going, what's what's what's he doing? And if I don't pull it off, I'm still looking like the weirdo. But if I pull it off, they're going, oh, okay.

So I'll do things to put myself in a corner and to feel like a lot. underdog so I can then go, I got to dig my way out of this to succeed. Don't forget what I want. So we're done with round one. Yeah. And now we get to talk about your book. Cool. Poems and prayers.

The world needs a lot of them. So the book contains some poems that go back a long ways, right? Like high school? I think the first one I have in here was right out of high school. And I was in Australia as an exchange student losing my mind. imploding, writing 16-page letters to myself, and returning those letters with a 17-page letter back to myself. Wait, really? Yeah.

The Socratic dialogue was extensive. I'm sure this is going to be a long tangent, but give me, like, what, you're lonely, like, all the existential angst of a 19-year-old? So, I'm coming out of high school catching green lights. big right of passage in my family is the day you turn 18. Very disciplined until then. I'm making grades, curfews. What I did. Had my A's, mom and dad were happy.

I turned 18. I got four handicapped in golf. I got a job. I got $40, $5 cash in my back pocket at all times. Great girlfriend. Car's paid for. I got no curfew. Boom.

It's got Australia. Population 305 in the middle of nowhere. I got no golf clubs. got no girlfriend, I got no car, and I got a curfew. And I'm put back in my junior year of school because I went mid-semester. And their idea was go to this school with this group of kids for the first half of your year, and then they'll transition to seniors. You'll finish your second half of the year with them. Okay. I graduated. All right? So I'm an English class doing creative writing and I'm getting red marked Fs everywhere. You can't use that language. That's a contraction. I'm like,

I passed that test. I know how to write grammatically correct, but I'm trying to creatively write. Well, not in this class. So I start skipping class, going to the library, found Lord Byron. My friends at the time were U-2's Rattle and Hum, Maxi Priest album, Maxi Priest,

and then I picked up a really good In Excess album while I was over there because they were Australian. Those were my friends besides the pen and the paper. So you're writing to yourself. And the poetry of me not having any of the crutches, not having anyone to talk to or bounce ideas off of, and being very confused at a time when a young man should find identity anyway. But now I'm completely in a different place. It was frustrating. And I was trying to make sense of it.

And so I went into poetry to make sense of the existential questions of why, where the mendacities of the world, the bullshit people do. You know, you leave the country, you leave where you are, which you've known for 18 years. You learn a lot about you are. You get objective about who you actually were. And I'm going to start to get an objective about who I was, how I grew up, what my family grew up on, what Texas meant, what America meant, what it didn't mean, what it shouldn't mean, what was going on in the world, what we were, you know,

what do we call success? What do we reward? And the first poem I wrote was sort of a, I put fangs into that. And that wasn't a one. one-off. I mean, you've been writing poems for a lifetime, huh? Yeah. What does it give you that writing prose doesn't or acting doesn't? You said a lot of it in the introduction. I do believe there's a rhyme to the rhythm of life. And that's not always just in the good times. It's when you step in the potholes and when you miss the mark as well. That rhythm of life, when life is rhyming,

I don't feel like it's compartmentalized. I'm doing different things, but I don't have to, For instance, prayer. Why, I pray as a ritual, but I think when I'm most spiritually strong, all day feels like a prayer. I'm going through life and I'm seeing the beauty. I'm seeing truth. I'm looking at the ugly stuff, owning it, admitting it, not turning an eye from it. Yeah, you're writing the book. Clear declarative sentence. Prayer is to be aware. Yeah, to pay attention to ourselves. Yeah. But I get the sense from reading your book that you actually sit in contemplative prayer from time to time. I do.

Are you praying to a God? Yeah. Yeah. Praying to God, yeah. And God for me is not a person. You know, I love those deep South, Southern Baptist churches. We're talking. We're going to pray the prime mover.

The way maker. Ooh, ooh, ooh. You know, it's not a human. It's a entity. It's a place. It's a space. that's just higher in its own frequency that's not really reachable, I believe, here, but worth pursuing to proclimate or to try and imitate.

Yeah. Why was this the right time to release this book? Because I was feeling doubt. I was feeling myself getting a little short-sighted and cynical. Started objectifying women and men and looking down my nose, like, Probably not worthy. They're going to fuck that up. Hmm.

Ah, shit, that's just the way it is, isn't it? Well, wait a minute. Seeing clearly, I think there's a lot of reasons to look around and not see things to believe in, people to believe in. Reasons not to believe at all. A lot of reasons to doubt. But the way we see that to either concede or go, I'm looking above that.

I'm going to believe in above that. I'm going to believe in a higher ground that I believe we can pursue and maybe attain. And since I'm not finding it with the facts and the evidence, I'm going to go to ideals and dreams and divinity to say, don't quit believing in that. Call it beginner's mind, whatever. Don't quit believing in that. And though you may not achieve that, the world may not achieve that, that is the pursuit. That's the ultimate pursuit. So don't let that get dusty.

So dust yourself off, McCona. I pull some weeds between your old nugget and your heart. Get those two communicating a little bit more. And I think, you know, not even I need it. I talked to a lot of people that are like going, that's what I'm looking for as well. Yeah. We're going to round two. This is insights.

Three new parts. Two. Two. Has ambition ever led you astray? Oh, hell yeah. Oh, geez. I don't even have an example of my head, but I'm sure it has. Yes. I love to accomplish. It gives me significance.

It makes you feel significant. Significant. And I need significance. I need to feel it. That's an interesting thing to know about yourself. Yeah. I can over-leverage myself with my ambition. Okay. I believe because I have proven to myself that I can take on more than I thought I could. but what can happen and where ambition is letting me stray is you end up with a bunch of freaking campfires and no bonfires.

And all of a sudden look at my desk going, geez, oh man, I got a compartmentalized nine things today. And these are all new things. And they're all exciting on their own. Sure. But there's only 24 hours in the day. So I don't have time to, I don't want to take for granted the bonfires that I have built. Yeah.

I've got to keep putting wood on those. Yeah. One of them's a family. And I've got through eight of the things. those things today and I haven't, eight campfires today, and I'm tired. It's time to go to bed. Whoa. You got one, you didn't finish the ninth of the campfire and you didn't tend the bonfire you already had built. Maybe we need to get rid of some of those campfires. But I would say that's where ambition has led me astray at times. It is also, I've done some things ambitiously and I won't

talk out of school with who it was that I chased, I succeeded, I may not be sitting here right now if I wouldn't have chased those things. But I bruised some people along the way. And I look back and I regret that. You didn't say goodbye the right way, McConaughey. You felt like so much you had to have singular focus on this new ambition, which was a wonderful ambition. Yes.

But she didn't need to leave. Didn't need to burn that bridge. And then I go, well, I want to go back and repair that. And all of a sudden, more time goes by and goes, well, I can't repair it. I just want to go, I'm sorry for it. Did you? And you go, some of them, yes.

Some of them have not. And a couple that I went back and said, I could have handled this exit better, this transition that we had. They had already forgiven me. They were like, don't do. No, I was. So I was happy to feel that, oh, your threshold of sensitivity is higher than, maybe even theirs was and it was okay, but I still didn't mean that my feelings were invalid. And I've still got probably a couple out there, which I could go back and go, hey, I just want to say, for what it's worth or not, and I don't want to come in here and be condescending.

If you've already moved on, if you're like, what the hell are you talking about? I just got to, for me, if you give me a second, listen, a bogey back there. I could have handled that better. I could have still done what I did. Yeah. But I didn't have to turn a blind eye. Yeah. I think there's not a time horizon on those things.

I think you always get to go back. I have to remind myself of that, too, because we all have those. Do you know cards? One, two, or three? One. One. What's something you feel has passed you by? I don't think I'm ever going to be what was then a Washington Redskin,

but is now a Washington commander running back. Damn it. John Riggins. Three point four yards of carry. That means if you run first down to three point four, you run second down to six point eight, you're running third down. You are 10.2, just enough for a first down.

Which, can we just clarify this? I know you've talked a lot about it. You are from Texas. Yeah. This is a... I grew up outside of Dallas. Notorious rivalry between the Cowboys. Yes.

And you are a commanders fan. I was... Since I was four years old. Part of it was we were in Longview, Texas, East Texas, behind behind curtain, the big thicket, the Hicks. Dallas was Paris. As it's often... referred to. And when a little hicks from East Texas went

to Dallas, at that time I just remember a little down my nose sort of of, oh, you're from there. And I was like, right here. Uh-uh. Your commander franchise fandom is like a screw you to the elites of Dallas. When I was

four years old, it was a combination of that and the fact that when we would watch westerns, I was always rooting for the Native Americans. I like the guys with the Bose and arrow. had analog that didn't have the man-made pistols and stuff that were riding bareback. I was a fan of them, the underdogs again. Okay.

Then you combine that with the fact my favorite foods hamburgers. And at the time, there's number 55, Chris Hanberger, who's now on the Hall of Fame. I was really going to be curious of that. You're with me? Yeah. It seems totally obvious. So when you're four years old, you're like, are you kidding me? So it was the one game I could stay up on Monday night instead of have to go to bed at 9 o'clock.

I could stay up as late to watch the Redskine. I was at the last game in RFK. I was in the first game of Jack King Cook, the first game at FedEx. And I've always been, I don't dis. I actually like the Cowboys more now, but still I will always be a, what was Dinner Redskin now, Commander, fan. I think it's a sensible thing to think that that particular achievement has passed you by. I don't know.

Which achievement? Being a professional football player. I don't think your body can do it. I know you're ambitious, but I think you're right. That's part of, and I have this one of the poems, oh, my part of getting older. Your body doesn't necessarily mind what the head tells it to do as much anymore. But still hanging in there. Found tennis.

Needs feel good. Back feels good. A little different. A little different. Okay. Last one in this round. One, two, three. One.

What's a lesson you keep learning again and again? Repeat offender. Guilty. Yeah. Oh. Hey, while I'm thinking about it, because I know I got a few, but I'm not finding any of a recall. What's a lesson, flip? you think you need to keep learning. Okay. Okay. I mean, for me, it comes down to patience.

On the daily, I see kind of the worst version of myself as an impatient person. I'm impatient with my children. I'm impatient with work. I'm impatient with the pace of change. I want things to move faster. And it doesn't bring out the best in me, honestly. And just when I think I've like, okay, I've taught, I've done the meditation. I know to do the grown-up time out, I can do it. And then something will trigger it. And I'll be off to the races again. When if, is there a time, or there's too much patience?

Is there such a thing? Yeah. I think so. There is such a thing as too much patience. because sometimes you need to just act. The buck stops here or I'm tired of preparing for this thing. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go.

I have an action bias. That's part of my thing is that if something's going to, then I'll just be like, go, make a decision. I don't even care if it's the wrong one. Let's just choose and move on. Which can reap many rewards. It can. Because I know I've done it and I know a lot of people who walk the this or that for a week and a month and a year and a decade and two decades and you're like, just choose one.

I'm bad with industry. Jump. Yeah, go. And you'll find out. That's right. So that's my answer. I agree with you there. I think that the change we're talking about, I think are going to have to be a punk rock rebellion

with some amount of rage. I don't think a kumbaya, let's be patient. And at the time, that's kind of, there's a time and a place for that. But I don't think that that's going to create changes in a way that are going to really be evolutionary. You know, I do have a similar thing. And now that I work with my wife and we're partners face forward in our tequila brand, Pantelonis. She was hesitant about working together that way. She's like, her marriage is pretty good. I'm always, I'm a partner with you and all your business stuff, but I've never been face forward with you. Yeah. He was like, you sure you want to do

this? We talked about it for months before she finally came over and said, yeah. And that's been part of what I'm learning from work where there's that patience. I'm similar to what you're saying. I'm momentum. I come on, boom, come on. Affirm. Next. Yes, I got momentum.

Offense. I'm throwing deep. Yes, let me go run the score up. And she at every next level stops. Stop. 360 view. Right. Let's look around.

What changed? What did the last decision change across the board? Yeah. And she's picked out quite a few things. Oh, that's a good question. I never thought of that. But it can be also frustrating as someone who wants to play office to go, I don't have time for the pause right now.

Come on and roll in. I don't want to get conscious, actually. Right. You know what I mean? Let's go. So now we are into the last round. Beliefs. There's your sweet spot.

One, two, or three? Two. Hmm. Do you think there's more to reality than we can see and feel? Oh, yeah. Look, I don't know what the heck it means, but I just, Remember Gene Hackman moved on months ago? Yeah.

Passed away. I'd never thought or dreamed of Gene Hackman. I had a dream of Gene Hackman. I woke up and told him I had a dream of Gene Hackman. I was like, this is while back. Before he died? Three days later, they found him. And I'm like, wow, it was a premonition.

Then I find out, no, he had actually been in his house and died days earlier. And I'm like, oh, geez, was that dream at the time. Did you know him? No. Huh. I don't know why last night in real time I woke up at 4.30 in the morning, I was driving a car. Talking to my guy riding passenger seat, having a discussion. First time I've ever dreamed of this person or it's ever been in my dream.

Guess who it was? Who? Robert Redford, who had just woke up this morning and found out he moved on. I don't know what that means. I'm not going to sit there and go, oh, but there's things to see and feel that are unexplainable that I think we all do, whether we try to, don't try to, whether we didn't try to, and they snuck in anyway. So I don't know what that means, but that's not explainable. And I would call that the soul and some things that we can obviously feel and see in reality more than we do.

Last question, Matthew, one, two, or three. One. What does it mean to be a good person? What does it mean to be a good person? Yeah. Good person. Yeah, good person. It's not, I know this is something you've thought of. Well, I work on being, as good of a person or I don't want to start, I have a

tournament there about difference between a nice guy and a good man. Yeah. You know, good man, there is a difference. I've been a nice guy before. It's great. We all know the nice guys. Yeah, they're cute, kind of get along with everything. easy to have around all the time.

Good ambiance. Easy ambiance. Good man? It can be great ambiance, unless you go against their ideals. And then that good man, that nice guy, a good man is not a nice guy. Because they have things they believe in and don't believe in. Things they'll stand against and stand for. Much harder than being a nice guy.

But what does it take to be a good person? Oh, my gosh. I mean, look, I go between, you know, we sell this, find your true self. But I prescribe to that to a certain extent. I also like Bob Dylan's version. What do you mean, find a true self? Just be the creation. Whatever you want to create, be it.

A bit more carny, but probably just as true. And is in an argument you could say whatever creation you make yourself? Well, that is, you're all those. That is your true self. To be a good person, though. I don't want to go with the word good as much as I believe in ethics and morals. I got to watch the morality of good. Yeah.

Because part of why the world's doing this so much is we've started playing God, good and evil. Good and evil. No, evil. Good. And that's part of what maybe we ought to, you know, maybe we ought to deal with like, you know, better or worse. Let God deal good and evil. You know what I mean? Totally.

At the same time, I think that's a great answer. You know, at the same time, that doesn't mean we should just go around middle and the fiddle and appease and, yeah, yeah, I think we need judgment. You have no identity without judgment. You need to be discerning. You need to be able to make choices. Now, part of what is hard about today is people seem to love,

trying to not understand you. It's like, I went away one time with all my bad reviews 10 years ago. Thick book. I read them.

Learned a lot. Also, had a lot where I was like, oh, this SOB wrote this before they went and even solid performance. They already had it in for me. They were already going,

I'm going to misunderstand. I don't care what it is. It's written. We suffer from that a lot right now. When you're talking, I'm already thinking about how can I misunderstand her and say something alternative and contrast this? Because then I've got an original and I thrown a spear. Hey, check that out. More likes, yeah.

I get more popular on that. Great. Oh, yeah, they went up. It's a contrarian. That's a bit like the cynic. That's easy, man. What's hard is to go, okay. So that's why you believe that.

And that's, all right. I may think differently, but now I understand where you're coming from. Now we're in a conversation and I've found a comparison. I've found a through line. Right. Between us as humans. Right. Agree or disagree.

And that's a short supply. That's a short supply. And we got to have to fight to get that to be less short supply. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. Yay. Yeah. You into that? Forward past.

Anywhere? We're going to the past. Okay. We're going to the past where you pick one moment to revisit. it. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. Okay. Just a moment you want to linger in a little longer. Oh,

do, do, do, do, do. Which one do you choose? Oh, there's another one I'm going to bring back from that same sort of time in childhood. My mom was my kindergarten teacher in the schools, down the road. We'd ride our bikes there. And remember there was a Kellogg's commercial fruit loops, Tukin Sam, would come flying through the room animated. And you go, right behind you, baby. Right behind you, baby. And me and mom would ride bikes.

She'd ride up and I'd swear her behind her. And whoever was in front, the gig, would you go? If I was in front of me, hey mom, back there? And if she was in front, she'd go, Matthew, you back there? And the response was always, right behind you, baby. Right behind you, baby. Yeah. Matthew McConaughey.

His new book is right beside me. Right behind you, baby. His new book is called Poems and Prayers. And It's been such a pleasure. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thanks for listening.

If you had fun with this one, then I'd recommend going back and listening to my conversation with Jeff Goldblum. He's another actor who is all about the rhythm and the musicality of the craft. In fact, he would not stop singing. It was awesome. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Robert Rodriguez with engineering help from Sina LaFredo. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni in our theme music.

is by Womteen Arablewee. A special thanks to Nikolai Hammer and the NPR Visuals team for their extra help on this one. And in case you'd like to see a video version of the episode, search for NPR Wildcard on YouTube. We're going to shuffle the deck

and be back with more next week. I'll talk to you then.