Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Nikki Giovanni doesn't think about her legacy

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

At 81, Nikki Giovanni isn't afraid of getting older. And the legendary poet also isn't spending any time thinking about her legacy. She's mostly focused on having fun and being able to look back on her life and feel like she did her duty. She talks to Rachel about the myth of a happy family, what she's learned on safaris and why she's fascinated with Mars.To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind? No. Wow, I'm surprised by that answer. Huh. Because it gets you caught up in your life, and that's not what your life. Your life is not about your life. Life is about your duty. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card.

The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shared. shape them. My guest this week is poet Nikki Giovanni. When you look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms, you think, well, there is something else. I can't quit now. There is something else. There are so many words I could use to describe my guest today. Poet, revolutionary, queer icon, feminist, space enthusiast, mother and grandmother, legend. Nikki Giovanni is all those

things. But she is also a woman who figured out really early that she didn't have to apologize to anyone for who she was or for what she wanted from her life. She can write poems that look directly at all the pain and hatred in the world, and she can write children's books about feeling safe and loved. She can also conjure what it will look like when humans set up shop on Mars and black women lead the way. Nikki Giovanni has just been doing it her own way all along and writing it down so the rest of us can start to see beyond ourselves and whatever hard thing we happen to be stuck in in any particular moment. Nikki Giovanni, welcome to Wildcard. I'm so glad you're here. Oh, thanks, Rachel. I'm glad to be here. So I understand you turned 81 on June

7th, am I right? 81. I couldn't believe. I can't believe it. And, you know, I used to say all the time, you know, I really liked old age. It was a good idea. But 80 really kicked. my butt and I'm hoping that 81 is a lot better. I just got out of the hospital about a week ago. I was just, I'm just old and I was dehydrated and I had to go to London twice. And I like London, but flying back and forth is, I know, I could have swim, you know, I would have been better off. There you go, there you go. So are you a person who enjoys a good birthday party? Did you have one? I am not and I did. I just have, no, you know, parties are work, no matter what anybody says.

But we played card. We play Bidwist. I have a Bidwist group. And we played. I don't know what that is. That's a card game? It's like bridge only for more intelligence. If you do, say so yourself.

We're going to get letters on that one. And my dear friend, whom I love so much, Javon Jackson. came down. And Javon didn't go any place without his saxophone. So he plays sax. He plays dinner sax. And so that was very nice because it was no work. I didn't have to do it. That sounds like a good birthday. And I was glad to be out of the hospital. And I was glad to be with friends. And I didn't have to get dressed. I did shower, but I didn't have to be dressed. I get it. I get it. I'm so glad you're out of the hospital. I'm glad that you're doing better. Are you a game person? What do you think about this?

Oh, I love games. You do? Oh, sure. The weakest link. Jeopardy. The wall. Yeah. All right. I'm into it. So let me explain how this is going to go. Okay? Okay. I've got a deck of cards in front of me and each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer. I'm going to hold up only three cards at a time. And then you, Nikki, are going to choose one at random to answer. Okay. There are two rules. You get one. one skip. If you use your skip, I will swap in another question from the deck. Okay. And rule number

two, you get one flip. So you could put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do. And we're breaking it up into three rounds. Okay, memories, insights, and beliefs with a few questions in each round. And because it's a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end. Ginger cookies. Ginger cookies. How did you know? Oh, I wish I'd made you fresh ginger cookies. I love ginger cookies. Soft kind or crispy? Soft, soft. Always soft.

Like my grandmother. It's not ginger cookies. I should just tell you right now so you can emotionally prepare. I'm leaving. I'll see you later. Okay, so this is the memories round. Three cards to choose from, one, two, or three? Of course, two.

You said that, like, everybody knows it's two. It's the best number. Well, I'm a baby sister, so I'm number two. I get it. Okay. Were you ever obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid? Yes, I wanted to know why Mars was red. And my obsession was that there was a war on Mars and that they had developed atomic energy so that Mars burned itself up. And as I lay in bed for most of my life, actually, to look out the window, I had. have seen Mars, which is why I talk about it a lot. And I would like to go to Mars because I think that

as a black woman, my sisters and I could build a community. And I love that you have planted that idea in our collective consciousness and have written a lot about it. When did Mars come into your head? Do you remember? Like as a kid? How did you even, I didn't think about Mars as a kid. How did it capture your imagination? I'm a baby sister. I shared a bedroom with my big sister. She wanted the bed by the wall. I don't know why.

But that gave me the bed by the window. And so I would look out the window and watch the stars. And the stars haven't changed. So you have to ask yourself, what are they telling us? What am I learning? Did fixing your gaze upward make you feel safer? I mean, you had a tough home life. You've talked and written a lot about that. Did thinking about the planets, the cosmos, the universe, did that help you escape the whatever was going on at home?

Well, my parents had what I would call in Nice Words troubled marriage. And what space let me know is that this could not be the end. And thank God I did have a grandmother. And I went ultimately to live with my grandmother. But when you start to, you look at the stars, and then you think about the other life forms. And you think, well, there is something else that I can't quit now. There is something else. Three new cards, okay.

Same drill. You pick, one, two, or three. Well, I guess I should take one. Okay. Let's do one. what's something you thought was normal about your childhood that you now realize was unusual? Probably the most unusual thing about my childhood was that I recognized that my parents' marriage was not my business. Because it was unpleasant. Saturday night at 11 o'clock, I was listening to my father beat my mother.

So that's unpleasant. But you also recognize it has nothing to do with you. It was none of my business. And I didn't believe Ozzie and Harriet, or Father knows best. I didn't believe any of that. I still don't think that there's such a thing as a happy family. Because that was your norm. So you assumed that all families, to some degree, were broken in that way.

Yeah, they're crazy. And so the best thing you can do, sometimes you need to walk away. You need to find friends and get rid of the family. Because the family drive you crazy. Just because you happen to be born doesn't make them kin to you. You make your own families, but I guess I'm saying. Yeah. I recommend dogs.

But they're faithful. They're intelligent. And they always love you. You walk into the house. The dog is always happy to see you. We've got to take a quick break. But when we come back, I ask Nikki if she is afraid of anything. And her answer may surprise you.

Now we move into the second round. Oh. The insights round. This is stuff you're learning now. stuff you're working through now. Okay, three new cards. One, two, or three. Remember, you have a skip and a flip. You don't have to use them. One, two, or three. Well, let's go for two again. Okay. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? Patience. I'm incredibly patient. It takes a lot to really push me. Huh. Yeah. Where does that come from? Well, I don't know. I'm the baby sister.

of two. So that teaches you, one, you're always watching your big sister because they're always so wonderful. They're prettier. They're more intelligent, everything. And so you're always, and you want to say, well, one day I'll grow up or whatever. But most of my friends are older. I have very few friends who are my age. I'm 80. I'm 81. Right. It's a long life already, Nikki, 81. And most of your friends are older than that. Some good longevity. Well, I'm hoping that Aunt Sarah, who was my mother's great aunt. And nobody liked Sarah, by the way. She was a despicable person.

But she lived to be 100. So I do want that dream that lets you live to be 100. I think it'd be interesting to see what's happening in 100. My kids asked me that recently if I wanted to, you know, not just to 100, but like, would I want to live forever? And, you know, that's an interesting question to talk about with kids. how having a finite end to life sometimes creates appreciation because you think things are going to end, you know. But I said I would, I would do it with some caveats. I just want my health.

I just want my body to still work. I don't want things falling apart on me. Things are going to fall apart. And so that's, again, one of the things that you can hear in my breathing. It's because of the pneumonia. And that'll go away. This will get well. But I'm not afraid of, you know, being blind.

I have a friend who's losing her sight. And it makes you very uncomfortable. I think what an opportunity to now see the world in a different way. I mean, look at Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder. So you say, well, they couldn't see, but look at what they created. So obviously they saw something. And I'm not afraid, as I said, 80 kicked my butt. I mean, if it could be wrong with me, it was wrong with me.

And I was thinking, okay, well, you know, I had cancer, I had lung cancer, and I had breast cancer. And I said, whatever it happens, I don't want to read, I don't want to be sitting, well, I'll be sitting in hell because I don't think I'm going to heaven. But I don't want to be sitting in hell. And they say, she fought cancer for, you know, 20 years. I'm not fighting any disease. I'm learning to live with it. And I want the disease to live with me. So every morning that I wake up, me and cancer, we're good shape.

And I say, well, let's take a shower. Go about our day. Let's do our life. Yeah. And one day we won't. And then that means that I'll be transitioned. I'll be in another place. And that's what, you know, I'm talking about my grandmother,

but that's what I think about grandmother, about sister Althea, who was my eighth-grade teacher, and I loved her so much. But I don't think they're not dead because they will never be forgotten for me. And I find myself if I'm not careful. And sometimes even if I am talking to them or they're talking to me, you're never alone when you have somebody like that around you. Yeah.

Are you afraid of anything? Well, I'm very cautious around ostrich when I was on, you know. Nicky, what are you talking about? You're afraid of ostriches? Well, yeah. You ever been on a far? They are mean. No, they are mean.

And that kick will kill you. Ask a lion if you had to put a lion against an ostrich. The lion is gone. That's why you don't see lions. That was just like not where I thought we were going to go. Oh. No, I like it. I like it.

I mean, it's real. That is your fear. The ostrich. Yes. I have to be very careful around them. I'm not afraid of lion. because lions are an intelligent being that unless you're threatening them, they're not going to bother you.

Right. But the only ostriches I've had in relation, you know, it's been unpleasant. And I'm lucky that they didn't get to me or they were to kill Thomas and my son and I own on Safari. You have to be careful around ostrichies. People need to know that. That is a good and unexpected public service announcement that you have provided. Giovanni. Okay. Next question. Three more cards. One, two, or three? Okay. Let's do three. Three. In what ways do you choose to find joy? Cooking. Cooking. I love to cook. Do you? I really do. I cooked with my

grandmother. And my mother could cook, but not as well as my grandmother. And I didn't cook with Mommy. I watched Mommy cook, but I cooked with grandmother. And I would be the one, she used to be the one, I hope nobody's upset. But, you know, you go and get the chicken. We live in Knoxville. And so you have to go. Yeah, you could go to chicken. Chicken was, unfortunately, for the chicken alive. And so grandmother would ring its neck. And then I would be the one to have to pluck it. And I learned to pluck the chicken. But I also learned to cook chitlins because I learned to turn the chitlins or intestines.

I learned to turn them inside out and pull the fat out. But I also learned to break string beans. And when you do that, you want to pull the string out. So I love every time I'm cooking something, I'm thinking about grandmother and how she did it. Oh, I love that. You know, it's like she's with me. Yeah. It's like it, you know.

But I do. It always makes me happy. And I like other people's cooking sometimes. But mostly, if I have my way, I do my own. You said that sometimes you catch yourself, or maybe it's not catching yourself. Just sometimes you do. Just talk out loud to your mom or your grandmother. Does it happen when you're cooking?

I don't know if I'm talking out loud so much as remembering. You know, and you go and. I made some lamb chops that, I have to tell you, were incredible. And I was trying to remember what it was that grandmother did. It was grandmother's grandma. And I remembered, oh, she put a little cinnamon. And so put a little cinnamon and a little apple vinegar. Yes.

Oh, God. They were so good. I thought, oh, you know, and I don't think I said aloud to grandmother. You know, look what I've done. But, you know, it's one of those. Like, I didn't share. I have people. You just ate it for yourself.

I didn't. You didn't invite people. They should go get somebody else. If they're hungry, go to Wendy's. We've got another quick break, but when we come back, Nikki tells me about her belief system. Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian. So now this is the beliefs round. Beliefs.

One, two, three. Okay. Three. Three. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind? No. Wow, I'm surprised by that answer. Yeah.

Huh. No, because it gets you caught up in your life, and that's not what your life. Your life is not about your life. Life is about your duty. And so, no, I don't think about it, you know. Have you seen people get too caught up in preemptively analyzing their legacy? Oh, I've seen a lot. As I know a lot of famous people in there, oh, you know, I wonder what my stamp would look like.

I'll be dead. So it doesn't matter. No, I'm serious. Someone did not say that to you. Yeah. Oh, wow. And so you just look, no, no. I'm just glad when me and cancer wake up.

And now when me and cancer and pneumonia wake up. And one day we won't. And I don't know. Maybe I'll be sad. Maybe not. I don't know. It's interesting. My friend Tony Morrison, whom I do and still do love so very much. And my favorite, Tony Morrison, among other things, is Sula. And when Sula is dying, she says, oh, wait till I tell Nell. Because Nell is her best friend. And she's, wait until I tell Nell. It doesn't hurt. Wait till I tell Nell.

Let me ask this question a different way then, though. I get what you're saying, that you don't want to get wrapped up in your ego. You don't want to think. think about, you know, whoa, I'm so important. People are going to remember me? What are they going to write on my tombstone? What are they going to, what all the great accolades are going to give me? But are there moments when you think back on your life and allow yourself moments to feel proud? Oh, there are moments that I feel proud because I've worked hard. And I think the word that means, as you probably also have heard in this conversation, a lot to me is duty. Yeah. And when I went to the opening of the African American Museum in D.C., you go around and around. I certainly recommend anybody doing it. And I had forgotten because a lot of those things I don't handle and I'm not interested in.

I forgot we gave permission to use my poetry and we gave permission to use my life. It's not something, if you start paying attention to that, you'd be crazy. And when I turned to the right, there was a photograph of me. And I just automatically, and brings tears to my eyes, I automatically just turned over my shoulder to my left to say, look, grandmother, I did my duty. And, yeah, and it still amazes me that I, I mean, I just, it's like she was there, I did my duty. And that's what matters to me. That was beautiful. This is the last one.

Okay. Last question. One, two, or three. Let's go two again. What belief helps you make sense of the world? Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian. And I think Jesus is a really interesting guy. I really am fascinated by.

the way he conducted his life. And I think 90% of all black women you would run into of Christians. We believe that he may not come. There's an expression that black women have, and I share that expression. He may not come when you called, but he always comes on time.

So we've learned to wait on the Lord. And I think that that's the most important thing. Do you pray? Oh, no, no, none of that. No, no. So how does that? I'd sell them go to church. Don't go to church.

Don't pray, but there's still something about Jesus, the Trinity God, a Christian God, who you're into. Well, he's a very interesting guy. And, of course, when he did come from the... There are lots of interesting guys, Nikki, but like... No, they're not. Let's face that one. But, you know, when he came out of the tomb, he went to Mary Mamie. So the first thing he went to was a black woman.

So you have to appreciate that. And I think that what he said to her was, you know, I've got to go. I've got things to do. But you call me. I'll be there, which is wait on the Lord. And all of the black women I know believe that. And it made sense to me. You may as well.

He'll come when you call. That's why I have patience. No question about it. You know, you wait, you want, you want the Lord to do something. But I'm not asking for, you know, lottery numbers. You know, you know, you know what it? And I'm not asking. Do Jesus help me win those super lotto?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, none of that. Please let me get well, you know. I don't, you know, I'm worried about this cancer. I didn't, I didn't ask for any of that because that's a foolish thing to ask for. What you're asking for is let me continue my life of duty with grace. And that's all. If I can gracefully do what I have to do, I'm happy.

Do you think there's such a thing as heaven, Nikki? There's a heaven, and my grandmother's sitting up there. I'm going to hell because I hate my father. And I'm going to sit down and tell him why. But I'm sure a grandmother and mommy will, you know, talk to Jesus or God, whoever's there. You know, let her come up and visit, you know. And everybody knows I like champagne, so I'm sure they'll have a glass. I'll sit there and talk and we'll sit there and talk to me.

Well, you got to go now. You've been here for two days. You know. Do you actually think that? It doesn't matter what I actually think. It doesn't matter. What matters is what gets me through the next day. Well, you won the game, Nikki. So the prize, alas, is not ginger cookies.

Oh, I know. It is a trip in our memory time machine. So, as your prize, you get to revisit one moment from your past that you would not change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger a little longer in. What moment do you choose? That's not only hard, but it's personal. And so I know what I would, but it's none of your business.

I want you to be a, at now, though. Can you go there now in your mind? I go there. I go there quite a bit. You do. You don't know me. You don't need me to take you there. Yeah. I've been, you know, I haven't been well right now. I'm getting better, but I haven't been well. And so I stay in that spot right now and it works. My old ladies come through. You know, no matter what's going on, My old ladies are, I mean, I'm in the hospital. To me, I love hospitals because they're grandmothers, you know, and they come in the morning and they say, how's my baby doing today?

But it's like all of these, not all, but a couple of old ladies that I've really loved, and they're right there. They say, you know, you'll be all right. Don't worry about it. Well, you don't know me anything. You don't have to take me to your moment, but I'm glad that. you can go there easily these days. Yeah.

They're with me. Yeah. Well, it was my great pleasure to get to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh, thank you. I hope I didn't sound too crazy, but life is a good idea. And wait until you get to be 70. You're going to love it.

Nikki Giovanni, poet, author, revolutionary, amazing human. Thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you. If you want to hear more from Nikki Giovanni, we've got a bonus question you can hear by signing up for Wild Card Plus. I ask her what her thoughts are on marriage. Well, first of all, it takes patience of which I have a lot. And secondly, well, it's a good tax right up by the way. Oh, Nikki!

You'll also hear Ted Danson talk about adjusting to the world of adult responsibility. And you'll hear my reflections on how those conversations affect me personally. Wildcard Plus is the best way to support our show and support public radio at the same time. Go to plus.npr.org slash wildcard to join today. Next week on Wildcard, LeVar Burton plays the game. He talks about the privilege and the challenge of being a beloved children's television host. It is hard to imagine you getting really pissed off about something, getting really angry. Oh, my God. You could not be more wrong.

This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romteen Arablee. We'd love to hear what you think about the show. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.