Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Noah Kahan

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Noah Kahan's breakthrough album, Stick Season, made him known to millions of fans. But he tells Rachel that experience left him feeling like he knew himself even less than before. Noah talks about finding his way back to songwriting with his new album, "The Great Divide.” He also reflects on how depression comes with sneaky superpowers and shares that Oreos and "The Office" are his cures for burnout.To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Just a heads up, this episode does have some strong language. What's an answer you've stopped searching for? When am I going to be happy, you know? I used to think when I was a kid, I first got diagnosed the depression. I was like, okay, so how do I cure this thing that I have? Because I don't want to feel like this anymore. Until I, like, accepted that it is part of my life and something that I could treat and manage, I was not going to be happy.

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They can skip one question and they can flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Noah Khan. I think depression and anxiety give you sneaky superpowers in a lot of ways. Like the power of understanding and sympathizing, the power of like self-deprecation is really important to me.

Noah Khan strikes me as the kind of artist who's taking nothing for granted. When you watch him on stage, he is locked in, making the kind of music he always, always wanted to make in front of stadiums of people. And then he looks up, takes in the crowd, hears them singing his lyrics, and then it looks like he's simply overwhelmed with gratitude. His new album is called The Great Divide. And it is my great pleasure to welcome Noah Khan to Wildcard. Hi.

Hello, thank you. Those kind words. Thank you very much. I'm so happy to have you here. We're going to start with memories. You ready? Let's do it. Okay, let's go.

So, three cards. I hold up three at a time, and you pick one, two, or three. Okay. I think we go for the middle one. Yeah, I just got to feel it out. Part the Red Seas. Here we go. What's an ordinary place that feels extraordinary to you because of what happened there?

Oh. I would say the woods near my dad's place in Stratford, Vermont. We had the property for a long time before we built the house there. So it was really just this huge 130-yard acre, 130-acre property. and like it was kind of wild. Like we would go up there from Hanover, New Hampshire to go camping on the weekends.

And I would just go into the woods and our whole family agreed that you could hear voices in the woods. And so like there was one night where we like all were like talking about our separate experiences with those voices in the woods. Really?

And it was like almost not scary. It almost like there's like this older presence or spirit there. And like it was so cool that we all felt it and heard it. And so it's a very ordinary, I mean, it's an ordinary path through the woods to a little meadow, but it's like haunted and in a cool way.

And so that place always strikes me as something really special and extraordinary. Oh my God. That's an amazing answer. Because it's one thing for yourself, especially. How old were you? I think when I first heard the voice, I was probably like 11, like 10 or 11. And for everybody in your family to have that same experience. It was crazy.

Like I remember being like, yeah, I heard someone like whispers and laughter. And my sister was like, yeah, yeah, me too growing up. And like we all kind of like, I thought it was kind of crazy until everyone like kind of confirmed that they'd heard it too. And maybe it's not real. maybe we're all just very imaginative kids, but it just feels like a place where magic was real in that little stretch. Have you been back to that space? Like, do you know where it is?

Oh, yeah. I go there all the time. I'm up in my dad's place all the time. I live there for a long time after I graduated high school. And it's always, you could always feel it when you go into that little. You still can. Totally. Like the woods in New England are like old.

And there's like presents and there are things in there. Like, I'm not like even super into ghosts or anything. that, but I heard that shit. So there are some old spirits in there for sure, and it's like a, not like a dark way, but it's in a way that you respect the history and like kind of how ancient those, those woods are. Yeah. And like you're not, you're not necessarily alone.

Like, you're coming into a place that has already lived through others' lives for a long time. Yeah, I think it was like, it's so, it could be so lonely out there that like it was almost nice to feel like there were someone else there with. me in those times because like especially in the winter when everything's just silent and cold and like kind of barren like it always felt like there was like someone else with me when I was walking in the woods by myself and I spent like a lot of time alone up there so maybe it was just me trying to like manifest friends but yeah it was a very strange but cool and comforting thing to have growing up really sad if you tell me you already have this song but I feel like

that's a song no I don't have a song I feel like there's a ghost in the I mean there's the sticks in the trees there's ghosts in the trees in New England That's not a bad idea at all. Right? Yeah. Do we have to share royalties with you? No, I'm giving that to you. Are we good?

All right. Maybe a little producer credit. Yeah, we'll find it. We'll find a producer point in there for you somewhere. Okay, cool. Okay. That was awesome. Now I want to go to that forest.

I'm into ghosts and spirits. You're welcome to join anytime. You and Lakshmi Singh. It is so done. That'll be a fun. I'm calling Lakshmi Singh from NPR Newscast and we're going camping with you in the spirit forest. Okay, next three. One, two, or three.

Let's do the far right. one or this one. I'm like, is you right? Yeah, this one. Number three. You're left. Okay. What's something your parents taught you to love? Ooh.

My parents taught me to love nature. We spent a lot of time around nature. We were, we scuba dived, scuba dove every year when we were kids in the Bahamas. And like the biggest thing about being underwater around coral and around sea life is like not touching anything and making sure you're respectful. it. And so, like, from a very young age, that was, like, one really big lesson for me was, like, just don't touch these things that you think are beautiful. Like, let them exist. They have their own existence. Like, you don't get to disrupt that because you want to, you know, touch it. Being in the woods and being around dogs, cats, and just different animals in the woods

when we'd walk around and just nature, literally plant life, nature, just like respecting living things with something that my parents definitely taught me. Did they both grow up in sort of rural environments, natural environments? My dad, my dad grew up in New England. My mom grew up kind of all over the place because their dad moved around a lot, but they both definitely lived in small towns. But I think as they moved to Vermont and lived in Vermont, they kind of started to get more of an appreciation for nature and they kind of, we're just closer to it all the time. And so I do feel like they instilled that, especially with animals, like having dogs. And I had the same dogs now that I had when I was growing up. And I think that's just an extension of like the love that my parents taught us to

show for our animals, our pets. Wait, same more. They're not the same dogs. No, no, no, no. Yeah, we cloned them. They're super old. We clone them. Do people do that? I've had some people on this very show who've discussed cloning dogs. But yes. That's crazy stuff. No, we just have German Shepherds. So, like, we grew up with German Shepherds. And, like, German Shepherds are incredibly emotionally intelligent animals. And they can really tell when you're upset or angry or frustrated. And so, like, knowing that they're really receptive for, like, your emotions is, like, helps you calm down around them. So, like, when I see my dogs, they actually helped make me calm because I grew up having to calm down around the dogs we had

to make sure not to frighten them or scare them or like stressed them out. So I'm grateful for my parents for having animals in the house all the time because it just forces you to kind of have responsibility for creatures that rely on you. Yeah. You've been super open about your struggles with mental health from a very young age. Did you have, were animals instrumental to you then when you were kind of trying to figure out what was going on with you and how to, what tools to use to get over it? Yeah, in hindsight, I think they really were. It was just having something around that, like, you could give a hug to or pet, like, really helped. Also, just, like, a lot of the times when I would have, like, my emotional breakdowns or whatever, I'd be around the dogs. And so

they'd just be kind of witness to all of it. And so having animals in the house was, like, a great buffer between, like, me feeling like I didn't want to talk to anybody about it, but also didn't want to talk to nobody about it. Yeah, completely. Having a little friend there that couldn't rat on you. Yeah, they're like a safe receptacle For things that are happening And they are listening, I think Like I do think

Those especially the dogs We have these German shepherds That were so smart and intelligent Like I could pick up on what I was feeling And it was nice to have that for sure I was always I honestly was always very open With my parents as well But you know of course they're at work

And I'm coming home from school We're having a hard day And like just crying Or venting to my dogs Was always really really helpful for me Yeah You have siblings though right They have three siblings

So I have a younger brother and an older brother and an older sister. So I was kind of in the middle, like other almost, because my younger brother is two years younger than me. My older sister's four years older than me than me and my brother is five years older than me. So I was kind of like in the middle. Yeah. Which is why I think I became a singer-songwriter because I just wanted to talk louder than everybody else and get a chance to be heard around the dinner table. But yeah, my siblings and I all grew up really close, but all kind of struggle with our own mental health challenges. and having our parents who were really respectful, open,

and transparent about their own challenges was really a blessing. Yeah, I love that. I've heard you talk about how just talking about mental health was a natural thing at the dinner table. Yeah, so lucky. I just don't realize how lucky how good you have it until you get a little perspective on the world. And all I knew was my life in New Hampshire and my life in Vermont.

So once I left, I was like, wow, I got really lucky with my folks and I'm always reminding them of how grateful I am for it and, you know, they're just great people. Yeah, that's a lucky thing. I'm sure they're very proud of you. I hope so. Yeah.

Okay, last one in this round. One, two, or three. Let's go your right, far left. One. Yeah, one. Okay, I should say, you're giving them numbers. One, Noah.

One, two. I'm making this way harder than it has to be. One. Sorry. The southmost card. That was really, really, really. messed me up. Okay. When have you felt the most homesick? Oh, probably like two years ago on tour.

I'm not sure where we were. It might have been in Europe. And we had already toured the cities in Europe that we're going back to. And it was our third year or something of touring stick season. And of course, I was so excited to have the fans still love it and get a chance to keep playing it. And what a blessing it is to be able to tour an album for more than just, you know, six months or a year. Yeah, for sure. Recognized the privilege of it. But I was just like, I was really thinking about what was coming next for me and kind of looking at the end of tour and just feeling like, oh my God, it's approaching,

like this emptiness that I'm going to have to confront and I just wanted to be home so bad. And what made it a lot harder was like, I'm singing these songs about home all the time. And so I'm like, every night I'm kind of giving this reminder of like this other life that I had. And so I felt really far away in that moment. And then knew at the same time

that home was never going to be the same because I had just sung about it for three years. I kind of almost felt like I took this thing that was really special to me and that was where I was from and gave it to a lot of different people in a lot of ways and kind of felt like I lost some of that for myself. You know, I go home and sometimes people are super supportive and kind, but like people know that I've made the music about the area. And so I almost feel like I've put too many people on the spot or put the area on the spot and haven't been able to allow it. It's like anonymity that I think made it so special to me. in the first place, which was kind of complicated. I think that was really a projection more than a reality because I got home and, you know,

I've since been living in Vermont and still feel super at home and taken care of there. And the place is still very much what I grew up loving. But it did change a little bit. And I felt very homesick in that moment on stage and aware of like that I wouldn't really be going back to the same place. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like you assigned language to the place, right?

You created images for people that felt really real and visceral to those who live there and people who've never even been there. And in doing that, it's like you give away like a special part of your own existence there. Yeah. It's like with music, like even my album. Like I listen to it on my own and it's just mine for a little while, like before it becomes the worlds too. And I feel like once you give it away, you start, you kind of lose some part of the relationship. you have with it. And it's natural.

And it's what you want to do. It's what you want. Yeah, yeah. But it's hard. It's hard because you want to have things that are just for you. And for a long time, Vermont, Stratford, in particular, when I was living there for all the years after and during COVID was like just mine, you know. It was for everybody that lived there too, but it wasn't like this world's thing to look at.

Yeah. And so sometimes I see people that are going to like visit where I'm from or like going to the town. And it's like beautiful and amazing. but I'm like, darn it. I hope people don't feel like I've, like, exposed. Oh my God. Have you made it like a tourist destination? I don't, I didn't do it on purpose. People are showing up because there's a lot of, there's a lot of like, references to streets and places and stuff. So people are like,

oh, there's a street and there's a store. Selfie. Yeah, a little bit, which I think people have really liked there for the most part, and most folks are really respectful. But it is kind of this feeling of like, what is mine to keep for myself? Yeah. And that's something that I think about a lot. Do, I mean, do people stop you when you're at home? I know mostly everybody that lives in Stratford. So there isn't that many folks that I run into that I don't know. So they're over it. They're just like whatever. Yeah. It's really not like, it's funny. Like they sell my merch at the store, Coburn's General store and the owners who no longer own the store. They're like, we don't listen to your music at all. We just love you. You know,

your family. That's kind of nice too to feel like it isn't about me at all. And I try to really like when I'm not on tour, not doing promo to like just step away from like the Noah show for a little while. And being back home is it's easy to do that because people are very grounded and down to earth there. Yeah. Okay, before we start round two, I just want to pull out of the game for a minute and talk about your album. Okay. Which is a big deal. It's very exciting. Congratulations. It's called The Great Divide. The title track is, it is just this beautiful song, Noah. I love this. I just listened to it on repeat over the weekend. And, you know, you're a songwriter. So you're not, you don't always have to plumb your own biography for material.

But I am going to ask anyway, because this feels so specific. It's about a fuller. friendship and a love and relationship and regret and demons that some of us are fighting silently often. Is that, was that something that happened in your life with a particular relationship or is that just? I'd say it's a reflection on a lot of my relationships growing up. Yeah. I have been both characters in that story. I think, you know, the person that is struggling with something silently and is internalizing a lot of it and engaging in behaviors that are unhealthy to kind of get away from it, but also reaching out for help in ways that people don't see. And I've also been the friend that sits and doesn't ask and doesn't want to know or doesn't want to confront how that person's struggle might reflect on their own struggles and just kind of wants to ignore.

and move forward. And I've been both those characters and a lot of friendships in my life. And I wanted to kind of find a way to write about the gap that exists between people who don't talk to each other in real ways. And I think that's at the root of a lot of problems

and relationships. They're just like how to approach someone in pain. And then in my life, I've felt because of those relationships a lot of just not just shame or guilt, but also just hope and optimism for that person that they were able to make. make it through.

And that the person that was more open with their feelings that able to struggle in front of you that you weren't able to ask about, like, that hopefully that means that they're just growing throughout their lives and eventually bringing that openness into their new relationship and being with somebody, whether it's a friend or a partner, that can have that dialogue with them. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what I was, I respond to so much in your work is this idea that we all so desperately just want to be known.

And we often don't know how to make that happen for ourselves. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. And it seems like that is a through line through your songwriting. Is that fair? Absolutely. I think in this album in particular, like, touches on me becoming known as a musician and feeling like I know myself even less. And so, like, the ways we make ourselves want to be heard and how sometimes they're not actually a way to become heard. Like, you feel like you get farther and farther from yourself. And there's a song on the record called Porchlight that I really.

about like all the ways I've worried my family thought about me now that I've had success like that I've that I don't really want to talk to them or that I only want to use where they're from for my music or their own struggles for my music and I found in some ways like writing these songs has actually helped me understand what I'm still going through and what I could what I kind of my evolving problem of my need to be heard but also my desire to be alone and understood and there's songs on the record that kind of touch on that a lot. And so I do feel like this record is a reflection of that feeling, of that need to be heard and like what it looks like in real time. Yeah. I mean, authors, writers, all stripes, go through this kind of struggle where you use your life for material, right? You observe, you observe things. You observe the world, but it's your life and often it's your relationships. And you just said that that was a thing that you had to work through or you worried about that your

family was going to assume that you were just milking them for good songs? Did you have to have like a conversation about that? Yes, yeah, multiple and many. Yeah, tons. I feel like my biggest regret, and I'm sure that'll be one of your fun cards for coming up here soon. Regret comes up from time to that. Are you going to heaven or hell? My biggest regret would probably be like not communicating what I was writing about before it came out to my to my parents, and my family, to the people in my life. Because I, didn't know what the response is going to look like. I didn't know that people were going to listen to it a lot

and that it was going to be successful in any way. I really didn't anticipate the level of exposure that these songs and these lyrics got. And a lot of the songs were written at a time when I was just processing on my own. It was just my way of processing. And I didn't feel like I was supposed to go talk to my parents about them because I was like, oh, I got this off my chest.

That should be enough. And then I didn't put into account what it might feel like for them to see that without being. talk to you first. And they've all been incredibly kind about it. And they've never really said, like, that they've been insulted or offended by it. But I've just made sure, and especially making the next album, just

to be communicative with them and to talk to them and to make sure they're feeling looped in on what's going on and what I'm feeling. And it's allowed me to have like more authentic conversations instead of just being like, I'm mad of you and here's my song about it, which has been really good. So I've been really healthy. That was definitely a learning experience for me. One of many, but that was a really, really big learning experience about

like people are at the other receiving end of a lot of people's attention that aren't just me. Right. And I signed up for attention. I signed up for people looking into the lyrics and who I am, but it's not fair to put someone else through that without getting their consent first.

Is songwriting still as personally therapeutic to you as it was in the beginning? Because now it comes with all this like the trawbing of the fame and the pressure and the industry and the record deals and the blah, blah. It's such a

motherfucker It's such a little bastard I love I've always loved songwriting I've been doing it for my entire life It's always been therapeutic for me And this process was very therapeutic for me But it was also very painful

Like sometimes writing a song I was just like I got it out You know And this time was like I was having to dig and claw For the music And it was creating all this

Imposter syndrome And this pressure and this pain Imposter syndrome After the stick season Oh yeah even worse It was like Oh my gosh I didn't deserve any of that

How am I going to make them believe that I'm good enough to do it again, you know? And it was a very complicated and painful process for me because I struggled a lot with burnout on this last writing process. And that is any author, writer, creative person really goes through that or anyone can go through burnout. But it's particularly tough when you're having to create something from nothing. And you know there's a deadline.

You know there's a lot of expectation and a lot of people. And I started to really lose what I loved about songwriting, which I think was that it really was at the end of the day supposed to be for me and about me and for my own therapeutic purposes and it wasn't all about creating a product or like expanding on a successful business venture or whatever it is, you know?

So I started to lose that and it took me a long time to find it again only through conversations with I mean artists that I admired for years and friends and family, my mom, who's an author, my wife, who's seen me through a lot of it. And it was just like about reaching out

and saying help, because I didn't have a lot of faith in myself to get through it. And once I kind of reached out and acknowledged that it was something I was actually going through was when it started to be therapeutic for me and I started to realize that songwriting doesn't have to be for anybody else. And I really stopped writing songs for any album. I just started writing music because I wanted to see if I could do it still. And that's when I kind of started to feel not only like the music was getting better,

but like I was falling back in love with songwriting. And so it is still very therapeutic. I just have to treat it with a lot of care and make sure that I'm always tending after the garden and not abandoning it for three years to go tour and then coming back and be like, why isn't it full of fruit? You know, I just left this thing alone. And so I'm trying to make sure

I take good care of my creativity and how it isn't supposed to be for anybody else but me. Yeah. Second round, insights, one, two or three. One, two or three. Let's do two. Two, right in the middle.

What's something you thought about yourself that you had to unlearn? That's such a great question. I think I used to think I was really lazy. Really? Yeah. I think, especially in the past few years, I've thought I was lazy. In making this album, I was like, I'm so lazy. I don't want to get up and make music right now. All I want to do is lie in the couch and watch TV and eat junk food. And I think I had to realize that I, and as people right now in this busy-ass world where everyone's working all the time,

and I was touring for three or four years, it's not like I wasn't doing manual labor, but it was a lot of travel and a lot of energy spent. And I had to just be like, you're not lazy. You're just like recharging and like actually allowing myself to recharge and not see like rest as like a bad thing. Right. So I would say like challenging that I'm not lazy. I just like, and somebody that needs their own certain timeline of rest and and recharging.

Yeah. It was helpful for me. Yeah. I get that. I'm the same way. Like there will be times when I'm just, I need to stare at a wall. Like literally I just stare at the wall. Yeah.

And then I end up comparing myself to other people. I know my peers who don't need. to stare at walls, or at least they project, like they're not a wall-staring person. It's true, you never know. But then I look at people who are just, they're so productive. They're doing like 20 times more than I am doing in the world. That's okay. And I have to remind myself that for me, my truth is staring at a wall.

Sometimes I've got to do it. Because that's what makes you great. Like, you have to give yourself that time. And nobody's the same either. So like, it's pretty useless to be like, I wonder what that other person is doing to cope with. There are myriad of problems that are going to be so different and more convoluted away from yours. it's hard to like I do the same thing comparing myself all the time to other artists, other musicians, other songwriters, other people that work harder than I do in my perception

and then it doesn't really get me anywhere. So I started to staring at walls. Sometimes that's the thing you need to do. What is your thing? You said lying on the couch watching TV and junk food? I love. What's the junk food? What's the TV?

Oh yeah. I love like I'll watch The Office and they have super fan episodes now. So they have like extra longer versions of all the deleted scenes they edited to make it look like one continuous episode. So, you know, nine seasons of that. That's like six months in my life. Uh, eating junk food. I love eating like chips and salsa. Like anything spicy. Chips and salsa. A lime polar seltzer. Oh my God. I'm all about seltzer. See, I don't think that's really junk food. I feel like that's just food. And then I eat 10 double stuff Oreos. There you go. Yeah. Nope. That's the junk food. There is. But also, what is the point of a single-stuffed Oreo

anymore. Because they don't even want that anymore. They're making everything smaller. The double stuff used to be way bigger. Now the double stuff is just a single stuff, and the single stuff is basically just a cookie part. It's just cookie with very little cream. So you need to get mega stuff if you really want to experience a significant more amount of stuff. I completely agree, because the ratio of cream to cookie is now off.

Have you had a ring pop recently? I don't know if it was because I was a little kid and those ring pops were looked bigger in my fingers. They look tiny now. They're like actual ring size. Same with baby bottle pops. I guess they're both like, just they're both like, Children's candies. Well, also, is it just because you're grown now?

I was thinking that. Well, I said it. You might be right. But the Oreo thing is true, though. You agree in the Oreo thing. Okay. Next three. One, two, or three.

Let's go three. Three. When have you been in over your head? Ooh. Oh, man. I've been in over my head since I got into the music industry. Like, I've never, literally, I've always been like, whoa, I don't belong here. kind of been like agent Cody Banks like faking my way through. I felt like I was like a spy and

like pretending to be a musician. So I think my whole career and it's funny because the feeling has never really gotten easier. I've always kind of felt like I don't belong in this moment. And it's really not to get like sympathy or something to be like, yeah, you do like look at the cool things. It's just the way I felt like. Yeah. Even when I was like at, I think it's because when I was at open mics growing up was where I started out, I started doing open mics like every day of the week in New Hampshire, Vermont. Yeah, when I was like from when I was like 12, when I was 17 or 18. And I was always a youngest one.

And I couldn't hang out of the bar and drink with everybody. And I couldn't catch up with the people because they were all in their 30s and 40s. And I was just me and my mom hanging and eating big potatoes waiting to go on. But I think that made me feel like a little bit on the outside of the group when it comes to music. And I think when I got into the music industry, people were so kind and welcomed me with open arms. But I didn't really lose that feeling of like all I can do is go up on stage and like crush it. because that's the only thing that's going to get me to make me feel like I belong here. And so I think I've taken that into my music career a lot where I'm like,

I can only control like the music and the way I sound and the way I sing and the performance. And it was just kind of this way of me feeling like I belonged on stage was like actually singing or writing. So I've always kind of felt in over my head. But never as much until like the last like four years like stepping out into an arena or a stadium and just being like, what are you guys here for? Okay. So I want two stories from you. One about the first time, if you can remember, when you're 12 getting up at an open mic, because that seems wild to me. Like the confidence required for a child to do that is crazy. I didn't lack confidence. So what was that on stage

moment like? I was like, I think this was at a time when I had, there was like a very rough period before puberty where I had like, I just wasn't very good and had a really high voice and like, puberty somehow made me like sound better. Like it gave me like a little rasp. And I was getting really into like Ray La Montaigne and Cat Stevens. And so I went on stage at Jesse's in Hanover, New Hampshire, and I was the youngest one by far. And I wasn't great, but I do remember, like, I think people expected me to be, like, sound like a dying frog or something like that.

But I was able to sing. And so people were like, okay, like, I got a couple glances up and then people went back to eating their food. But I remember that was the first time that I was like, all right. Like, I can like get people to look than all of them. One more person each night to look up and listen to me saying, like, that'll be something. And it was just my mom back there and she would drive me to them after a soccer practice after school.

I love that your mom did not say, Noah, that's just like that you're, as a parent, as a mom, you're so afraid that your kids' feelings are going to get hurt, right? And I love that she fought against that. And she's like, nope, this is, let's go. Because she would, she would, she wouldn't hurt my feelings, but she was, she would critique my music even when at a young age, not in like a, this sucks kind of way, but in like, she's a writer, bestselling author. so she would help me hone in on certain ideas and phrases, and she would, like, ask me what that means, and if there's a different way we could sing that or, like, what part she liked and what it reminded her of.

And so, like, she was willing to, like, question what I was doing and help make it better. And then she was also willing to, like, three or four nights a week, pick me up from school or soccer practice and drive me to a random bar in the area. And, yeah, I'm sure there are sometimes, like, she didn't want to go take me out, but she always did without ever complaining about it.

So I was lucky. I remember she took me to, I think maybe the one time she didn't want to do it. We went to America's Got Talent auditions in Rhode Island. And it was just so brutal and weird. It was. I think she was like, this sucks. It was not do this.

And I actually got a record deal like three weeks later. I didn't get through the first audition. But like separately I got a record deal. I'm like, I got it didn't do good enough on that show. Take that. America's Got Talent. Yeah. What now?

Yeah. Okay. So that was the one stage experience I wanted to know about when you were 12 years old and you get on stage for an open mic. The other one I want to know is. is the first time you stepped on stage at Fenway. I mean, you sold out Fenway Park in Boston, and just that had to have just been surreal for you. I was, like I said earlier,

there's a lot of times where I feel like I don't belong on stage or I don't deserve the moment or whatever, but that was like the one time that I stepped on stage and like, this is like, I've earned this, I deserve this, I'm ready for it, I'm right here in this moment. I'm not thinking about it. in over your head. I didn't at all. I actually didn't feel it over my head in that moment. I felt

like very, the word in control sounds like Patrick Batesy. I guess I mean like in control of my own feelings. Yeah. Yeah. And very excited to be just in that moment and not wanting the moment to end or even to get to the next part of the song. Like just I wanted like stay as long as I couldn't. After the show, I remember just like standing out there and being like every show I do, I walk away before I can see how people felt about it because people are cheering. And so I just like stood out there for a minute. took it all in and they hear 38,000 people, like all my friends and family, like, just like cheering your name and celebrating this place we're all from. Some of us being from the same town, but New England as a region,

and getting that experience with them was just like so special. I always choke up thinking about it because it was just like one of those moments that you know you'll remember forever the second it's happening. Yeah. And it was very, very special. I did not feel it over my head. I felt like right in the water needed to be in. Yeah.

Okay, last one in this round. All right. Three new cards. I like this round. You're going to do it? Okay, I do two. One, two or three. Let's do one.

What's a quality you're drawn to, but don't possess? Oh. Patience, for sure. Oh. I'm very impatient. Singing my song, Noah Khan. Are you really patient? I'm so impatient.

Oh, yeah, I know me too. I'm the most impatient person. It's so bad. I don't know what to do about it. I feel like I just need it all to happen right away, and so I'm really drawn. to people, especially my wife who's so patient, like, who can just take a second, you know, and, like, wait for the moment to happen instead of meetings all happen right away. I just want everything to be fast. I want traffic, my experience going grocery shopping, playing golf, playing a show, driving somewhere, going for, I just like, I want it to be over.

I think I'm just, like, bouncing from one thing to one thing and never, like, experiencing anything. But I love people who can, like, patiently take in a moment and, like, enjoy all of it. but also people that are patient with others. Like sometimes I can get impatient with people and that's like one of my flaws. And so I love when people are able to like take a breath, relax and realize like some battles aren't worth fighting. Yeah. What about you? Can I flip that one on you?

I mean, I've talked about my impatience so much that now people who watch the show will come up to me and they'll be like, that patience thing. It's hard, right? Oh my gosh. You've been pretty patient with me. But not so much with you because you are a fast talker. I know. It's quick. But it is definitely a professional liability because I've been having, you know, conversations with people for like 25 years.

And also because I worked on a new show where the conversations had to get edited down to like six minutes. And so I developed this horrible tick where then I would just be in my actual life and I'd be at a dinner party and someone would be telling a story. And the story, they were just not telling it in a really efficient way. And it was just going on for so long. And I would just be like, oh, no. Have you ever said it? Just like, stop, hurry up. No, no.

I've done that before. Really? How does that go over? They know me really well at that point. So, like, they've made a mistake telling the story that's slowly in front of me because they know that I'll say something. If it's someone that's like, just, I haven't met, like, I'll go ahead, like, wrap it up, but I'll let you finish.

But if someone's like, I'm like, dude, I can't. You have to skip. Oh, my God. Bing Bang Bang. It's so rude. It's so rude. It is like the rudest, rudest thing. I'm sorry.

And so I have to really. I have to be patient. And my kids, God bless him. And my older son knows he does this. He just tells a long story. And he wants all the details in there, but I'm sort of losing the plot. And it is a real, it is my work in life. You got to time the, uh-huh.

Yeah, that's right. Uh-huh. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. You got time them out. Yeah. Okay.

Well, we share that albatross. We share that albatross. We share that albatross. It's our last round, Noakon. Beliefs. Okay. Three new cards. One, two, or three.

Let's go two. Are there any recurring symbols that show up in your life? Whoa, that is a really cool question. It's only cool if your answer is yes, and here's some of them. It's not that. I don't think, no. No, I'll skip that one. I don't have any recurring symbols.

Yeah, I don't have any recurring symbols. Skip it. Done. Okay, so I'm supposed to ran on. family pick, so I'm going to pick this one. Does the idea of an infinite universe excite you or scare you? Oh, I'm excited by that. Are you? But let's get around to it, though, similar to the impatience conversation we had. I'm getting

lack of patience to see some of this stuff. I don't want to be in my 70s or 80s when it's time to, like, go explore and, like, go to a different planet and, like, eat really cool for in different fruits and stuff like that. Like, I'm ready to go right now. At least next 10 years, while I'm still, you know, in shape and, like, young adult would love to be able to get out and go see some different planets and stuff. Oh my God, there's so much to unpack in that question. Yeah. So as you're aging, you think you're going to go to other planets?

You think this is definitely a thing that is... We're eventually going to figure out how to travel through space and time in a more efficient way. Yeah. And I think it'll probably be like in my late 80s, late 90s when we're like, unless we're like all out of food by then. But in my late 80s, late 90s is when I'll kind of be like what people start locking into that technology. And I don't want to be like an old man who has to go to like the cruise ship planet to like

like chill. I want to go to like the dope like young people are going here and like partying planet. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just worried about missing out on like what the really cool stuff is. Like I am not interested in going to like the equivalent of like a museum planet. Like I want to go to like nightclub planet. Nightclub planet. Golf course planet. Uh huh. Planet where everything's candy. That kind of stuff. Uh-huh. Okay. Okay. Cool. And right now in your imagination of what that universe is, there's definitely all those discrete activities. It's, sin it. Like you think that. You think that. But it just doesn't make sense to me that an entire planet would be the golf planet. If I had my way.

We're called Noah's Planet. Do you really like golf? I love golf. Do you? Yeah. Oh, man, I hate golf so much. You do? Oh, darn.

Yeah, I despise the golf. Do you hate it? I'm never going to golf planet. Have you ever played? You know what I was? I was the bar cart girl at a country club. Oh, that will make you hate golf because people are fucking weird of. And it ruined the game from me.

Oh, I'm sorry about that. So there's that thing. Yes. But also it gets back to the patience. An impatient person is never going to be good at golf. That's why I'm so bad. But it's also an addictive personality game. Uh-huh.

So I have the addictive personality makes me want to keep going back. Right. But you're right. The bar card thing is bad because people, I mean, that's like the position that, like, they're like usually like a younger woman driving around these old weird dudes. Oh, yeah. Golf gets a terrible rep from people like that. So I understand why people wouldn't want to travel to golf course planet.

I'm not going to go. I'm still not. You've made a good case. You can do a one week staycation at golf course planet. Maybe. I don't like golf by then. You can go over to everything's made a candy planet. I am going to spa planet.

Spa planet's beautiful this time of year. I'm going to spa planet. That's what's going to happen for me, Noah. Three new cards. One, two, or three. One. Besides going to planet golf, this is the question. What do you look forward to when you're older?

It depends if I can play golf or not. No, when I'm older. When you think about being old, what is the thing that you think you're going to enjoy? Old people, similar to babies, can get away with a lot of ridiculous behavior because of them being old or babies. Old people can be pretty cantankerous without a lot of social repercussion. Like grumpy old person, no one's like, hey, like, I'm going to, it's like, okay, he's an old man. Right. And you would enjoy that.

I would enjoy that, being able to be grumpy whenever I want. It would be awesome. You start to lose the ability just to be pissed off about something. public, which is fine. Especially when you're famous. You can't really get mad at people. Yeah, well, you have to be polite in matter what. If old people are rude, being rude and being grumpy are totally.

If I'm just like in a bad mood, I'm just like, walk around the scowl on my face, I would love to be able to do that. When I'm older, I hope I have a huge family. I would love to have grandkids and to be able to like spend time with like generations of family and just to like kind of like impart my wisdom or impart my life story onto other people like my granddad has done for me like my favorite thing in the world to do is to listen to him talk about his childhood and how just how different the world was but how much he grew and changed and to be around a dinner table with like three generations of people that are all there because of you know the grandparents up there it's really special so I want to be able to have that experience um tell me about him my granddad yeah um so my I have one set of grandparents that's that's alive I never met I met my dad's mom uh but I I was really young. My dad's dad passed away before I was born.

So I was really close and really close with my mom's parents. And he was living in Wyoming working in oil, but also going to school. Before going to school, I think he would bottle milk cans and then go to school and then go work on like an oil field. So, you know, I didn't have a lot to complain about around him. Right. But that perspective was like, his perspective is very much like, you have to make things happen yourself.

And like hard work is a huge. you know, principal for him and he's also just just really lovely sweet man and to come from such a hardworking

environment and both my grandparents grew up pretty poor and to see them kind of like get to this place where they have

their home and their beautiful family and are still so full of like life and energy it's nice to see that like

you can escape you know some circumstances of your life and like turn them into positive things. What does he make

of this new path that you're on? He's so proud I mean I remember every Christmas who would just have me like play music for him and even before obviously I was like any good. And he always was like, Noah's going to sing and him and my grandma always have been so proud of me and they come to a lot of my gigs. They do.

Yeah, and I always see him. Not now. The gigs are getting too big where I can't see him anymore. But they used to be like up there and the, you know, they have the elderly, a lot of elderly folks who need like Keynes or walkers are sitting up there and I'll just see him and wave. And it's just like so cool to see people that, you know, are probably not used to having like this kind of environment, like a lot of young. kids screaming and music and them just enjoying it. It's really cool. And we're all super close with them.

I'm close with my cousins, my aunts and uncles. So whenever we all get together, we just like listen to my granddad and grandma talk about their lives. It's really fun. That's awesome. Three more cards. There we go. Okay. One, two, or three.

I haven't done three in a while. What's an answer you've stopped searching for? Oh, that's such a good question. I've stopped searching for like, when am I going to be happy, you know? Like, when am I, I used to think when I was a kid, I first got diagnosed the depression. I was like, okay, so how do I cure this thing that I have because I don't want to feel like this anymore? And the more I try to do that, the more just miserable I become because I would feel the distress of knowing that I felt like this and it might not go away. And until I, like, accepted that it is part of my life and something that I could treat and manage, I was not going to be happy.

because I don't think happiness is like one state. I think happiness is being content within yourself maybe, like being okay with the flaws and the struggles you have. Here now. Yeah, exactly. Like, there's not like one utopic place where you're happy all the time. And I'm happy in moments and unhappy in other moments. I've never had a happiness that's lasted me my whole life and that's okay.

And I found that not putting a pressure on myself to like be something at all has allowed me just to be whoever I am. And that makes it easier for me to be myself. So I found that just taking in, like you said, moments as they come, accepting I have my flaws and trying to grow through them and work through them. But not feeling the pressure to be a perfectly content person has been really nice. And it's kind of unlocked a different perspective in life for me. It's hard, too, when you're young, especially if you're trying to work through mental health stuff.

I mean, adults do it too, but especially when you're young, You just want to know why, right? Like, why is this happening to me and not someone else? Yeah. And how does it stop happening? And it is a really hard thing to help a child understand that you're not broken. This isn't a thing that's wrong with you. And it's a thing also you're going to live with.

Yeah. Like, do you remember, was it a therapist or a parent or a friend or a friend? who helped you learn that it maybe wasn't going to get fixed because it wasn't a problem to solve, but it was part of you. And there was the word manage is more apt. That's a great question. I think it's like this thing that people wanted to dance around a little bit because they knew and I didn't. I'm not sure if I ever asked outright like, well, I ever get rid of this.

But I think in my head, I was like, okay, therapy, three months of therapy and I'll be good. or like medication, be on medication for months and then I'll be done with it and I've done everything and now I'm good. And like, as I saw that not working that way, I started to come to the realization that it was something that I was going to have to manage for a long time and that was a really difficult period. I kind of had to figure it out for myself. And I was really lonely in this feeling of like, oh, fuck, I'm stuck with this forever. And because right now it feels so hard, I'm going to feel this bad forever. And the truth was, as I started to kind of manage and like there are so many great ways to manage depression and anxiety and, and, and, and, and,

And I started to lean into those a little bit more. I started to be okay with how I was going to feel right now being forever. You know, it's like you should have to get to a place where you accept that you're going to have periods of depression and anxiety and preparing herself for those moments. Not listening to the story you've been telling yourself your entire life. Like I saw a bumper sticker and it said, don't believe everything you think. And like that changed my life. Like I was like, you're right. I've just been listening to every shitty thing I've said about myself.

for 10 years. And I've never questioned any of it because I think I'm so smart that I must be right. It's like, I just need help. And so when I asked for help and reached out for help, it's when I started kind of getting a different perspective on who I might actually be. And then I started being a lot more happy because I was like, I still can grow. And I'm not going to be a completely happy person, but I can still grow and learn new things. And also, I think depression and anxiety give you sneaky superpowers in a lot of ways. Like the power of understanding and is sympathizing. the power of like self-deprecation is really important to me being able to talk about my flaws

without it having to be like this terrible taboo thing is really really important not just in my career but just like the way I interact with people so I think they give you these like sneaky little like traits that are kind of cool and of course it's not fun to have depression and anxiety but there can be moments of humor and levity in those and those feelings sometimes you're like man this just sucks so much I can almost laugh at it and I've gotten to that point a lot in my life which has helped to get through some of those harder moments. I mean, it's, we're all so complicated in our heads. There's so much going on.

I know. And so many of us don't feel comfortable to say it out loud. And you do, and it's a beautiful part of what you do, in my opinion. What has it been like to hear people? I'm sure you get notes and messages all the time from people who are saying, this has helped me. Hearing you talk about this stuff has helped me. It's so beautiful because even in the way they write,

you can tell that they're sometimes for the first time, but they're always speaking openly in the way that I have tried to. My music or in conversations like this, like you can see them being open and not guarding anything. They're like, I went through this thing. And here's what I felt about it. And it was awful. And like, I'm here for all of it.

It's an amazing, amazing privilege to be able to be trusted with those feelings from people. Sometimes it's hard, you know, because they're taking in a lot of pain from people. And I'm not a therapist. And I'm not somebody that can give feedback at a, a professional way, but it just makes me happy to see that the music that has been really hard for me to make and really hard to speak about, has allowed people to kind of face that fear of being open and being honest. It's incredible. The people that have connected with this music come from all over the place from different walks of life, from different backgrounds, but we're all kind of connected by these lyrics, I think, and by the fans' response to the fans community. And to know that, like, something that's so, universal has been found in this music is really special to me. I know how different life is for a lot of people right now. I had a really lovely childhood and was very lucky, like we talked about with mental

health stuff, to have that support for my family. And a lot of the folks that write to me don't have that kind of good luck, but to know that the feelings they're describing are things that I have also felt just makes me believe in like something bringing us together right now. So it's a really great start. And I'm always just honored that people write to me and share with me. It's really cool. We end the show the same way every time. Okay. With a trip in our memory time machine. Here we go.

Okay. In the memory time machine, you revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose? I think I'd like to go back to the first month of COVID. without COVID happening because I got to be with my family

all together and there was there was no way we were all going to be together like that without some monumental event happening I obviously wish COVID hadn't happened but just getting to that week or two in March back home us all just kind of in the same place

not knowing what was going on it felt like we were all little kids again for the first time in a long time and it's really special to me Can you give me a scene? Where were you? Where were you together? Where did you fill that closeness in a way that you hadn't in a long time?

We were all at my mom's house in her living room just drinking red wine and laughing and talking about each other and about our lives and stuff. And it was just really beautiful. And again, of course, do not like COVID. COVID sucks. It's horrible for so many people. But that moment that that temporary craziness offered us was really special to me. Yeah, I remember it's all laughing, and it was just like we had no idea what was going on, but we were all just drinking red wine. And it was like time was suspended. It was like we were all kind of like living in amber, you know?

It was just so I just knew it was something that would never happen again in that moment, like we would never all be together again for the same reason. It was really beautiful. Yeah. Noah Kahn, the new album is called The Great Divide. It was so wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. If you like this episode, check out my conversation with Jack Antonoff. Just like Noah, Jack was an open book about regret. Also coming to terms with his mental health issues and his abiding love for his hometown. I loved talking with him.

This episode was produced by Alicia Zhang and Summer Tomon. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Becky Brown. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolonna Sangweni, and our theme music is by Ramteen Arlou. You can reach out to us at Wildcard, NPR.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.