Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Orville Peck killed his impostor syndrome

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

Orville Peck is full of apparent contradictions. As a kid in South Africa, he went from dancing ballet to playing drums in a punk band. He loves musical theater but made a name for himself as a country singer. He sings about vulnerability but covers his face with a mask. Peck talks to Rachel about embracing those contradictions and about starring in "Cabaret" on Broadway. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

What do you feel like you're constantly chasing? I think less and less. I think I was chasing acceptance my whole life. But I have really worked on not needing to chase that any longer. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards.

They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Orville Peck. I had to lose my career for a moment while I went and got health and sober. And it was just a very defining moment where I was like, man, like, this is taking everything I love away from my life. Orville Peck is full of apparent contradictions. As a kid growing up in South Africa, he went from dancing ballet to playing drums in a punk band. He loves musical theater, but made a name for himself as a country singer. A lot of his songs are about vulnerability, but he covers his face with a mask.

The contradictions are all part of the Peck mystery. He keeps a lot of his life under wraps, even his real name, which is not Orvo Peck. And maybe that's why his voice feels so singular to me. It is so very beautiful and full of longing. And it's all the more powerful because I don't have the full context of the artist himself. But I don't need to know Orville Peck's real name or what his cheekbones look like because his entire soul comes through his music. Orville Peck is currently making an exception to the mask, bearing his face and his musical soul on Broadway as the master of ceremonies in Cabaret. And it is my sincere pleasure to welcome Orville Peck to Wildcard.

Hi. Thank you so much. Hi. I'm so glad to have you here. I'm very happy to be here. We're going to talk about Cabaret in a few minutes, but quick congratulations. because it is amazing. Thank you. But with that, are you ready to play our game?

I'm ready. I love games. I love a gamer who likes games. All right, let's do it. Memories. First three, cards, one, two, or three. Let's go number two. Number two. Where would you go to feel safe as a kid?

I think as a kid I had such a rich, imagination. I had like entire fantasy lens built in my head. I played a lot outside as a kid but yeah, just into my own

world for sure. Do you remember any details of any specific fantasy world? You know, I loved Westerns as a kid, obviously. So I think... Me too. Yeah. Deeply.

There's a photo of me. actually when I'm eight years old, and I used it for a cover for a song that I did. But I used it as the single cover, and it's a photo of me as a little kid, and I have a cowboy hat on and a handkerchief covering my face. And so I'm still sort of playing the same game, I guess. But yeah, just like make-believe land for sure is where I'd escape into. So the question is about not just escapism, but safety. And it implies that there was something to feel safe from.

Did you have that in your life? Did you have a thing that you needed to escape from that? And so you sought safety in your imagination? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, you know, I've been able to contextualize it a lot better as I've gotten older. But, you know, I was really, I think, a very unique kid from the very beginning. And I think when somebody is unique or, you know, different in that way, I think it's really hard for, it's hard to fit in. And I think when you're a kid, you don't realize, of course, you don't have the context that, like, you know, these are things that make you special and are sort of like your strength.

To be celebrated. When you're little, yeah, when you're little, you know, it's sort of, it makes you feel ostracized. and I think, so I mean, I definitely, like, I really struggled with making friends when I was a kid. I felt very much outside and excluded from, you know, everyone else that I grew up with. So I think, and then, of course, as I got a little older, that led to, you know, I was picked on a lot as a kid. And so I think the escape for me was definitely a lot of that. but you know it's funny like like I said I'm I'm actually I'm kind of grateful in a way that that is how I grew up and that you know even though it was really tough as a kid I think for any kid who feels kind of bullied or ostracized it's incredibly difficult but I will say it definitely it built this kind of imagination that I had you know I spent a lot of of time on my own as a kid. And I think, luckily, I built this kind of creativity to, I think,

kind of deal with that. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. Okay. Next set of three. One, two, or three. Let's go with three. Three. What's an ordinary place that feels extraordinary because of what happened there. In South Africa, I grew up going out to the bush a lot. And, you know, I've had such a very, very deep connection to nature and animals because of that my whole life. And so when I go back home to South Africa, that's where I spend most of my time is out in the bush. And there's just something about being there that feels so

in sync with who I am and it feels so incredibly familiar. I think having also traveled and moved around so much my whole life, lived so many different places, kind of you know, I've kind of had a nomadic sort of existence

for the majority of my life. It's sort of the only environment in my life that feels like it never changes and it's familiar. So going back there is like the most comforting thing that I can ever do. And so that always feels extraordinary to me. Yeah. What does it look like? What are the sounds? Definitely the first thing I think of are the doves. There's like a very particular few kind of dove calls there. It's really quiet, but you can kind of hear. the life in the leaves, rustling, in the trees.

So there are trees, for some reason, I think, if it is being desert. No, it's so it's not very, it's not like, it's not like Savannah style. It's, uh, there's a lot of like acacia thorn trees. And there's a particular kind of smell, like, uh, of the dust and the felt. Um, and, yeah, it's interesting, you know,

like I've, I've taken people home with me that are not from there. You know, my partner has been a lot. I know a lot of people that have gone. And, like, there is something sort of inexplicable about being there. It is just Africa in general, but especially, I'm biased about South Africa, of course. But, like, it is unlike anywhere else I've ever been in the world. And I hear most people saying that as well.

Hmm. That is beautiful. It also reminds me of where I grew up. I grew up in Idaho, and there's this real smell of sagebrush that smells like home to me all the time. And you just evoked that for me, thinking about the smells of places that make us feel safe and at home. Yeah. Okay. One more in memories.

One, two, three. Let's go number one. Number one. What's a moment with a stranger that made you feel loved? There's a lovely lady who has been to a few of my shows, and, you know, she was diagnosed with stage four cancer, and she came out to one of my meet and greets on tour, and she had taken all these beautiful, you know, I have, I'm obsessed with motels and like motel culture in America, because I just think it's, like, really fascinating. And she had gone around, and she's a photographer, and she had gone and taken photos of all these. different motels and she gifted them to me. Wow.

She wrote me a beautiful letter that came with the photos and just, you know, talking about how much my music has meant to her and like, I mean, you know, it's a lucky thing in my mind that I get to, you know, be some kind of whatever it might be, relief for someone that's going through something, you know, so. I mean, that's what happens. Vulnerability feeds on itself, right? So if you make yourself, you share the hard stuff that you've been through in your life, which is a lot. And you put it in your music and other people respond to it.

And then it makes them also want to open a door that maybe they haven't opened before to disclose their own stuff. And so it's a beautiful symbiosis, you know? Yeah, for sure. And then, of course, like I'm saying now, that all these experiences of people telling me their experiences, that also changes me. and so that in a way probably dictates what I eventually write about. So they're also like, it is kind of like this symbiosis. Yeah. Oh.

You're lucky. That's a lovely thing. I really am. It's amazing. We're going to pull back for a second and talk about cabaret. Perfect. I mean, you're on Broadway right now, right? Like, I think we pulled you away from probably the stage.

Yeah, I've got a show in a few hours. So my first question is, what was your experience with this material before you got this role? Because, I mean, it's been around for a long time. I remember seeing the Liza Minnelli, Joel Gray movie, like, when I was in my 20s. Were you familiar? Had you seen it on stage before? Yeah, so I saw the movie first as well. When I was a kid, I was like probably 12 or 13.

Which is really scary, by the way. though. Didn't you think it was scary when you were talking? Oh my gosh, yeah. It's really, it's an intense. I mean, the story is, it's a beautiful show, but it is very heavy at times, you know. And when I was a young dancer, I did a production of cabaret. So I was one of the K-Cat boys. I played the gorilla as well. Oh, you did? For those who don't know, there's a gorilla in camera. Yeah, just right. That's probably a confusing comment for out of context, but go see it. You'll figure it out. But, you know, it's funny. I was just telling someone the other day, I'm like, I feel so lucky because I've actually been able to accomplish a lot of my dreams, which is incredible to say.

But this one in particular and so specifically, like playing the MC in Cabaret on Broadway, that exact specific scenario has been a lifelong dream. Wow. Okay. So just a little backstory. for those who don't know the story. It's about a dancer performer named Sally Bowles, who's come from London to Berlin, and this is the build-up to Nazi takeover of Germany.

And she meets a guy named Cliff, and there's love, and all this is happening in the backdrop of this place called the Kit-Cat Club. And the presence that ties the story together as we watch, you know, events unfold. is this role, this person called the Master of Ceremonies, the MC. So that's the backdrop. But can you explain, like, what is this person or is it a person?

And what do you love about that role? Why was that the dream? I think that is, I think what you asked is exactly what I love about the role, is that I kind of see it for myself. I think you can play it a million different ways. For me, I think he definitely, there are moments that he exists as a concept. He exists as Germany. He exists as fascism. He exists as a mirror to the audience who are also in, you know, in this show, part of this show, whether they know it or not, which is also a very fascinating device that, you know, it's such a cleverly written show.

but yeah, he, it's an amazing. He's also an enigma. I mean, he is the definition of an enigma, which is sort of you, Orville. I know it's true. There is definitely, there are some parallels. Well, that's what's funny about me taking off my mask to do this because I'm putting on sort of a character, but also the character and the show. There's sort of ideas of masks coming on and off.

Yeah. The mask of assimilating into fascism. There's like a whole, you know, we could do a whole deep dive into the parallels, but there definitely are some. How was the no mask thing going for you? I don't even think about it. You know, it's fine. I mean, I was nervous leading up to it. I think, obviously it was never a question whether I was going to do it or not.

But then a few days before my opening, I was like, oh, my God, people are going to see my face. It kind of dawned on me. But then I haven't, I literally haven't thought about it since because, I mean, you know, just, it sounds like such a pageant answer, but I mean, genuinely, I'm really just focused on trying to deliver a good performance, and it doesn't even cross my mind, honestly. But you do put it back on for the curtain call, I noticed. Yeah. You come out for applause.

It's like that's supposed to be your real self, but for you, because the mask makes you feel like your real self, it makes you more comfortable in a public guy. So you put it back on to get your applause. Yeah, because that's like me coming back. Exactly. Second round. Insights. Insights.

One, two or three. Let's do two. Two. What do you feel like you're constantly chasing? I think less and less these days, which is really relieving. I think for most my life I was chasing. Validation is the wrong word. I think it's more nuanced than that.

I think I was chasing acceptance my whole life. And I think my idea of how to gain acceptance was through my accomplishments. But I have really worked on not needing to chase that any longer. Yeah. And I think that comes with probably age. You know, I think it comes with the fact that I've pretty successfully killed all my imposter syndrome at this point. Well, man. I think Broadway was like the last stab.

You've made it, Orville Park. No, literally. But also, you know, like I got sober a couple years ago. There's like a lot of things in my life that I have worked on over the last two or, well, probably about two or three years, where I'm just really, I'm just really happy with myself these days, you know. I, which I think for pretty much my entire life, I wasn't, you know. And listen, I have my days. But for the most part, I can really happily say that I really like who I am. And I think I know pretty well who I am.

And I think that makes it helpful because I don't feel like I have to chase too much. Yeah. Congratulations on your sobriety. Thank you. I stopped drinking eight months ago myself. It is a journey. Yeah, thank you. It's a journey for sure.

Can you tell me how you came to that realization that you just, it's hard after a lifetime of a habit. Oh, yeah. To say, I'm going to do something different today. Yeah, it was a. And I think it matters for other people to hear that, too. No, absolutely. You know, it was just being in the industry I'm in, obviously drinking and drugs and things are just, it's very normalized. And it's a part of nightlife.

It's a part of, you know, like I don't think I ever played a show in my life without at least a sip of beer or whatever, you know. And so it's just part of it. So there was that normalization. And then, you know, the big moments for me sort of were over a few years. I was in a really terrible relationship that was, you know, pretty abusive and very difficult. And that is when I really ramped up my drinking to cope with that. Pandemic hit kind of amplified that situation and amplified my drinking. And then by that point, I was, yeah, just very dependent on it.

And cut to a couple of years, go by. And then, you know, I had like a pretty definitive moment where I had sort of lost my relationship, which I have back now. I had to basically lose my career for a moment while I went and got help and sober. And it was just a very defining moment where I was like, man, like this is taking everything I love away from my moment. my life. And so for me, that's like always the constant reminder and why I actually very thankfully don't, I never feel tempted to drink or to relapse personally because for me, I'm so grateful for the things I have in my life and I know that for me, drinking takes that away for me. Yeah, the cost is way too high. Exactly. Yeah. So that was sort of my, that's the

bridged version. Yeah. Thank you. You're sure you. You're welcome. Okay. Three more. One, two, or three?

Let's do two. What's an expression of love you're trying to get better at? Trust for me. I think trust is an important expression of love. And I think it's something that a lot of people struggle with in relationships. And I think it's something I've struggled with a lot. And I think that's due to... Someone breaking yours.

Exactly. Previous trauma, like, you know, unrelated things in my life, but a lot of things in my life with trust issues. Yeah. And, you know, I think trust with a partner especially, it encapsulates so many important things. You know, it encapsulates you allowing your partner to be who they are. And trusting that that is good and right and learning to not try to control my partner in fear of getting hurt. Yeah. That's big.

I mean, it is just a big trust fall when you fall in love. I mean, you just hope that they're there. And then when they are, it's the most beautiful thing. But you have to fall. And that is so scary. Well, I mean, I think, too, it's like, you know, you can't. I was always in relationships trying to seek assurance and reassurance, which isn't really trusting, right? And I think, I think the, yeah, the kind of like the most beautiful form of, I think partnership is when you don't have to seek that assurance.

but I definitely have trust issues, like control issues in a lot of parts of my life. But I think that's something I've always been working on. Yeah, that stems from insecurity. And it sounds like you've been dealing with that too for a long time. And now you're in a different place. 100%. Okay. Last round.

Okay. Orville Peck. This is the beliefs round. Three new cards. One, two, or three. Let's do one. How often do you think about death? A lot less than I used to.

I used to think about it a lot. I was very afraid of it as a kid. How were you? I'm very, like, aware of it, I think. Did you have people die when you were young that were close to you? I had an uncle die when I was young in kind of a violent way, which was sort of, you know, I guess looking back would have been traumatic, but at the time I didn't really think but like that, obviously. But I lost a friend in high school, or I was just out of high school. I would

have been about, I think I would have been maybe 19. And she was 18. And that was my first, I think, real interaction with, like, death in that way. But I used to, like, I used to frighten myself. When I was young, I remember I used to, like, think about death. And I think I've, for me, personally, I've never really thought about there being sort of an afterlife. And so I think I've sometimes been able to sort of, like, frighten myself with the thoughts of it, of that it just ends. Yeah. But, but, you know, honestly, I think, I don't, I don't think about it that much. as I get older and I don't know.

I'm so overly concerned and in my head about current status. I think I don't even have time or space in my mind anymore to go there. But yeah, I don't really think about death that much. That's a good thing, I think. I mean, I'm totally preoccupied with it. And there have definitely been chapters of my life where I would practice it. That's not what it sounds like. No, I know what you mean.

But it mentally. I would just be like, what if I'm just gone right now? Like, what does that feel like? I would like try that on for size. I do that less and less. I think having kids like focuses my mind on the present too. A hundred percent. Yeah, it's a thing that can take over your mind.

Well, it's definitely, I mean, it's an inevitability for all of us. Right. It's going to happen. It's wild. And like any life experience, I'm super interested in living and what it means to be alive. and a byproduct of being alive is being unalive. And that is also interesting. Yeah, it'll be, it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a fascinating part of our experience.

Yeah. Yeah. Last question. Last three cards. One, two or three. It's due to. Hmm. Do you prefer mystery or certainty?

Ah. That's a great question because you know what's funny is I, I have two sides to my personality that are forever in conflict in this way. There is, I have a side to me that is extremely pragmatic and loves logic order. I'm a very neat person. I'm very tidy. I'm very, I have like, there's a part of me that is so, like, it scratches a part of my that feels so good, yeah, structure and, like, logic and all of that stuff, certainty.

Yeah. And then there is, like, a 50% competing part of my brain that loves mystery, uncertainty, chaos, adventure, the unknown. I would never want to ruin a surprise or, like, or like, I was never the kid that was, like, trying to peek into the presence, you know, like, I love. to be surprised. I think mystery is a great thing. I don't want to know everything about someone.

I like to make my own mind up about stuff. Yeah, that is the part of the most mystery. You wear a mask. Exactly. I can't not say it out loud. But I am. There is also a part of me. I promise you, that is very much about order. But I also

have a very chaotic nature as well. We end the show the same way every time and this is how we do it. we take a trip in our memory time machine. Okay. So in this memory time machine, you revisit one moment from your past. It is not a moment you want to change in any way.

It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose? I did a song with Shania Twain when quite early in my career. It was my first time doing any kind of duet and kind of collaboration. and the whole thing was kind of amazing, of course, honestly, like insane for me. And I remember we shot a music video for it. The song is called Legends Never Die. And at the time, I was in this really awful,

situation in my personal life. And it took so... That situation had so much... Had taken over so much mental space for myself that I don't even remember doing the music video because I was so... So unpresent. And I had so...

much fear and worry and stress that I don't even remember making a music video with Shadi Twain. And it's such a bummer for me because that was such a moment to be celebrated and such an insane moment. My first big kind of moment like that in my career. And I often think, like, I wish I could kind of go back and be present for it because I don't, I literally have no memory of it, which is crazy. Oh my God, I wish we actually had a time machine where we could put you back there. But hopefully you can imagine what that would be like for a moment. Yeah, exactly.

Sometimes I watch the video and it is surreal because I'm like, man, I don't even remember this. It's just blacked out. I like blacked out. There's video evidence, so it definitely happened. Yeah, exactly. Orville Peck, you can see him right now on Broadway in the fantastic musical Cabaret. He plays the MC. Orville, it has been such a pleasure to get to talk with you and do this.

Yes, you too. Thank you so much. If you like this conversation, you should go back and check out my episode with Ani DeFranco. I talked with her when she was also living her Broadway dream in the cast of Hadesown. And like Orville, she took an unusual path to get there. Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni, our theme music.

is by Romteen Arablewee. You can reach out to us at wildcard at npr.org, and you know what we're going to do? We're going to shuffle the deck, and we'll be back with more next week. Talk to you then.