Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Rita Wilson

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

Rita Wilson tells Rachel that she was tired of always being cast in the same kind of “nurturing” roles. And so she decided to explore a totally different career  – one in music. Her latest album is “Sound of a Woman.” They also discuss the inspiration Rita draws from her immigrant parents and from older women. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

When has selfishness served you well? Well, okay. Selfishness. I always think of selfishness is it being a bad thing. Right. But, you know, selfishness did apply because for many years, I keep getting offered the same kinds of roles, which, you know, they were always a version of somebody nurturing, you know. And I love that. It's great.

But I've exhausted doing that. I don't want to be. I got that down pat. Right. Exactly. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me.

My guest this week is Rita Wilson. If I want to do it, I'm going to do it. And if people like what I put out there, that's great. And if no one listens to it, that's okay too, because I'm doing it for myself. You know Rita Wilson on screen in many ways, as Tom Hanks' sister in Sleepless in Seattle, Arnold Schwarzenegger's wife in Jingle All the Way, as Marnie's mom in the show Girls, and again as the mom in the Netflix show too much. But it wasn't until she was in her mid-50s that Rita Wilson figured out how to take center stage in her own life, and music made it happen. She's out with her newest album of original songs that's called Sound of a Woman. and I am so very, very happy to welcome Rita Wilson to Wildcard.

Hi. Hi, Rachel. So nice to meet you, and it's really a pleasure to be here. So first round memories, three cards. You pick, Rita, one, two, or three. Well, I'm the middle child, so I'm going to go with two. Ah, all right, here we go. I've already learned something about you.

We didn't even have to do a card. Is there a meal from your childhood that brings back strong memories? So many. My mom was a great cook, and because she was Greek and didn't, she went shopping every day. She went to the market every single day to see what was good, what kind of produce was good. She would look at the butcher and see if there was any fresh fish in or if there was a new meat that came in. So we never knew what we were going to be getting, but it was always fresh. She did that even in L.A.?

Yes. You grew up in Hollywood. In Hollywood, California. She went to the market every day. But that was old school. That's how she grew up. So in a way, that's what she did. And so favorite meal, I would say she made what, you know, Americans would call meatballs,

but what Greeks call kifthedis. And that is sort of a breaded meatball made with chopped onions. And sometimes people put mint in it. We never liked mint. But it was chop onions, parsley meat. and then you'd bread it and then you'd fry it. Oh my God. And it was delicious.

A deep fried meatball is what you're talking about. Yeah. You can't go wrong with that, right? And then she would also make these incredible beans, fasolia, and those were just green beans, but they were sauteed with tomatoes, onions, olive oil. And I loved that because I would sit at the table with her and she would teach me how to take the side of the green bean, the strings out so that you wouldn't have that and chewy bit when you were eating it. And there's something about that I thought that was really, it was a good way to spend time with my mom. Anytime you're using your hands and you don't really have to

focus on something, you're focusing on the task at hand, but you kind of can free associate. And it was a good time for conversation. What were meal times like? I mean, was your family one of these where everyone's eating at different times or was there a concentrated now we come together and now we're eating as a family? Well, my dad worked nights sometimes. So he worked as a bartender at the racetrack. So he either worked during the day if it was that season or during the night if it was the other season. And so when he was home, we would eat together. And when he wasn't, he went to work early and then it was my mom, my sister and brother. But it was great. And, you know, I still am a big believer in family meals when the kids were little and we were raising the kids. We always had family dinner together.

Okay. Next three. One, two, or three. I think I'm going to go with three. Three. What's something your parents taught you to love? Another parent question. I'd say family. I mean, they were really so family-oriented. My parents were married for 59 years. Wow. They, it was, I really don't remember,

I remember very few occasions where other people that weren't family members came to the house. Because it was really my mom's brothers, sister, my dad's brother, all the cousins and... Wait, everybody came from these different countries? Because I know your parents both were immigrants, your mom from Greece and your dad from Bulgaria. So extended family came to California, too. Well, they, no, they had all moved to Los Angeles at that time.

So my parents, my mom was actually born in Greece, raised in a little tiny village on the border of Greece and Albanian. She's Greek. But it was an ethnic Greek. village, and my dad was born in Greece and raised in Bulgaria. So when they met in New York, they got married there, and then my aunt had already moved out to Hollywood. And she said, why don't you come out here? The weather is so good. What are you doing in that cold, cold, East Coast snow? So they came out, and that's where they stayed. And that's where we were all born.

So you had a big family there. Yes. So everybody had already come out. Yeah. They were the last ones. And they, you could, you can see now, in retrospect, that family was a priority. They, like, centered their life around making sure that you had access to aunts and uncles and cousins and that you felt some big familial network. Yes, 100%. And it, in some ways, that was a beautiful thing. but it was also this other interesting thing

because I think about it now because back then I didn't quite understand it, but because I think they felt safer in their own familial group. I remember my dad very much wanting to assimilate and when he became a citizen of the United States, he changed his name to Wilson because he thought no one's ever going to ask me

how to spell it again. The name I was born with was Margarita Ibrahimov. You know, like, beautiful. That's a very, I feel like, no, exactly. And I felt like my dad was just tired of people asking, how do you spell it? How do you say it? What is it? And I think assimilation was such an important thing for them.

They really wanted to feel like they were part of the community, but it was hard for them in some ways, too. You know, my mom didn't really go to the PTA. She didn't do that stuff. But she knew, like, when we were campfire girls, she knew how she, you know, was going to sew the beads onto our vests and, you know, make sure that we were doing what we were supposed to be doing. But we didn't have a lot of non-Greek or non-Bulgarian family friends. Did that make it harder for you as you grew up and you were a teenager and you're trying to find your old world? and, you know, for lots of kids of immigrants, it's like this in-betwixt kind of existence and identity. Right. I remember reading something once that I think is actually accurate, which was that when you grow up in a family that comes from another country,

if they have accents or something like that, that you can develop a high sense of empathy because you, in some ways, are an observer of how they're treated in the world. You're observing something. And you can pick up on subtle things that people are, you know, making fun of an accent or correcting how you say a word or treating you differently. And so I think in some ways that was really a good thing. And I'll never forget a time that my mom, she was very quiet and very polite.

Like she would never scold us in front of anybody. And she would wait until we got home. And she would say, if you ever talk to me like that again, it's going to be a problem. It just sounds scarier in that accent. It just does. Exactly, totally. And, you know, you're home alone now. You're like, right? What's going to happen? But I remember once we were going to the Broadway department store, it was on Hollywood Boulevard and Hollywood and Vine. And it was the big department store. And my mom had just learned to drive. and she was waiting for a parking spot,

and a guy tried to come and, you know, snake into the parking spot. And she was in the right, and she took the parking spot. And the guy got out of the car, and he was so mad at her, and she was yelling. And she was just putting the coins in the meter and quiet and just poised, and how dare you do that, blah, blah, blah. And she spoke up to him, very polite. But like, I was waiting for that parking spot. You are in the wrong.

I was in the right. And she just, it was the first time I'd ever heard her sort of stand up for herself. And that was, I was like, wow, that is cool. I had never seen her do that before. Because she was very quiet and she would never do that publicly. So I remember being very impressed by that in the best possible way. How old were you? If you think.

Probably around eight or nine. Oh, yeah. Young enough that that makes a real impression. Like, oh. Yes, yes. My mom. Strong lady. Yes, she was. Okay. I mean, you say that. It's true because my mom, I can say these stories. I don't know if they're related to the number three question, but my dad was born in Greece, raised in Bulgaria.

He has a very interesting story, but he tried to escape Bulgaria so many times that he was caught and put into a labor camp. While he was in that labor camp, it was a coal mine. And he was observing time and how things were being kind of what the patterns were of this place. And he realized that if he worked at night, that's when the trains would come in and they would collect the coal and they would take it away. So he bribed one of the guards with cigarettes. And he said, I would love to work the night shift. I'm kind of a night person, and can I get on that? And because of the cigarettes, he got on the night shift. While he was on the night shift one night after he timed it out and thought about it, he said to one of the guards, do you mind if

I go down and get some more firewood because our fires going out? It was about one in the morning. And the guard said, okay, and he said, Lus, can I take my friend, we'll call him Richard, with me because it'll make it quicker. So they said, okay, so Richard and my dad went down there, and the way the trains were set up, they blocked where the firewood was. So they were able to go down, pass in between the trains, and a high tail out of there, and there was a river. So it was probably around 20 minutes or so before they heard all the dogs barking and the alarms

and sirens going. And they just kept running and running and running. And eventually the next day made it to actually close to Turkey. But they continued on into Turkey. My dad got a job on a freighter boat that was coming to America. They didn't have a job for Richard. So my dad stowed him away onto this boat. My dad was the guy that, I think they called it a stevedore,

the guy that would shovel the coal on the boat. And he just split every meal that he could with Richard, and they both made it to New York jumped ship, and that's how he met my mom. Oh, my God, Rita! No, it's crazy. These stories are the most courageous people on the planet. And my mom was born in Greece.

She went back to her village when she was four years old with her mom, dad, and three siblings. And while she was there, her dad died suddenly. and now there's this widow with four kids under the age of 10 and the relatives in the United States said because they were American, they were born there, said, don't come back. What's a widow with four children going to do in America? Stay there, we'll send you money. And eventually the money stopped and they were just there. And when it started getting rough, and I think it was actually during Greek, the Greek, issues up in northern Greece at that time that were having, they got messages saying you have to leave now, you have to leave. But because the village was in Albania and during the war, the borders were drawn now

that she had to escape. And I remember her telling me the stories of this escape through the mountains and I thought it was, I grew up on the Hollywood Hills. I thought it was like, I climbed the hills all the time. They were real mountains. They were real mountains. They were real mountains and she had to stay behind because they found out they were getting a letter. When the letter, if somebody were going to come deliver the letter and no one was there to receive it, they would get very suspicious and they would shoot you on site. So my mother decided she would stay back for the letter.

She was 19 and the rest of the family would go. Wow. So she stayed behind and she took with her only this on her back, the Sterling. silver they had brought with them from the United States, you know, silverware. So she climbed those mountains at night by herself, met her family on the other side in Greece, eventually made it back to Athens, got their new passports, got on a boat, went to Greece, met my dad. When you're growing up with that kind of lore, do you just not complain about anything?

Like, you really couldn't complain about anything. Because I'd be like, my parents have gone through so. much, you know, if you're like, oh, I'm not kidding you. I didn't make the cheerleading team. And your mom's like, I climbed over the mountains alone. And your dad escaped from a prison camp. That was the thing. They never talked about it. But I knew it. I knew it. I think about that a lot because their courage was, I mean, pretty extraordinary. And both of them being able to sort of have a vision. for the kind of life that they wanted to have and then make it happen when you really think that's almost impossible to do, and they did it. So, you know, maybe we'll talk about this later,

but when it came to doing music for me, and I was like, I'm terrified. This is so scary. I was like, yeah, but is it really? I don't know. It's a different kind of scary. That is incredible. That is such an incredible story. Okay, we have one more in this round. One, two, or three. One. One. Why not? What period of your life do you often daydream about? It's wistful and nostalgic in some ways to think about when your kids were younger. That part is just that will crush you. It will crush you. It will crush you and take you down. The older I get the harder it is to look back at old videos. And, you know, old photo albums. I love keeping photo albums. Because those little people are gone. They're different people. Yes, they're different people.

That version of them is gone. Exactly. But very, very grateful for all of that. And I'm grateful for the daydreams because you do remember them. Sometimes I just sit back. I actually close my eyes and I will try to envision my children's faces when they were little and their hair and the smell of their necks and, you know, that. I still see my mom and dad's faces so clearly.

And of course, you know, if you're lucky enough to be in a long-term marriage, you really, you have so much history with that person that you. you can go back to, all of that is, it's powerful. Before we start round two, let's talk about your album. Okay. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you.

It's called Sound of a Woman. This is, this is a, you've written about your life, obviously. This is the fodder that you use to write music, but this, it does feel very, very personal, these songs. You know, there, there. As I've written now for 14 years, and really with some of the best writers ever, I have put myself in sort of a masterclass of songwriters. So I've been able to learn so much through writing with these amazing writers. But what I've learned is that what I wanted to say started getting more and more refined and more specific and deep. to my own personal experience. And so this album is sort of about those experiences that women go through.

You know, what is it like when you're younger, when you have your life ahead of you, when you're a little girl, what's it like when you get married? What's it like when you have a baby? What's it like when you find your voice or you're struggling to find your voice? And you've made compromises and you get sort of lost along the way and then you find yourself again. And how does that take shape? I didn't have any kind of a role model or a blueprint for anybody who had started doing music late in life. But it was also important for me to take this advice that came to me from one of the great songwriters of all time, Bruce Springsteen, when I was able to ask him, about songwriting, and I was confused, and I had asked him, what makes me think I can start

writing now? You've been writing your entire life. And he said, because Reitz, creativity is time independent. I mean, what a piece of information that is. Because, like, who's to say that there was that clock on creativity? Who was to say that, I'm sorry, you missed that window. That was supposed to be, you know, 23 and two-thirds a years ago. And it was liberating to me to be able to say, yeah. I mean, if I want to do it, I'm going to do it. And if people like what I put out there, that's great. And if no one listens to it, that's okay too, because I'm doing it for myself. Can you identify a song on this album that for you, when you perform it, you just like feel it in your body in this distinct way.

Almost every song on the album, but there is one that I have to, I've only performed it a couple of times live, but I cannot look anywhere where I can recognize any face in the audience. I have to look sort of into the black to the back of the house, and it's the song called Your Mother. Oh, my God. And it's such a gut punch of a song. I love it.

It's like, you know, that feeling of you get to a point at this age and your children are now adults and you're thinking to yourself, what do they not know about me? What can I tell them? What conversations can we be having so that anything is on the table? Ask me anything. I'm like my own personal Reddit. Just AMA, man. Go for it. Because the song, we should just say, it's about mothers and the 360-degree view of that human. Like, they were a person before they were your mom. That's right. You know, when you have kids, they come into this world and they just know you. You're the mom. That's you.

And then it was also this idea that even though my mom was my best friend, that when she left, I still was hearing her. I still talk to her. I still have conversations with her. and all of the things she taught me are still with me. And there are still things that I wished I had asked her. You know, I really felt like there was so much more, not just the recipes, but why she made certain choices. What was it like when she first came back to America? Did she feel American?

Was she homesick? You know, how much did she date before she met my dad? And, you know, there was such a societal thing about being a virgin when you got married. And to this day, I don't really know if she was a virgin when she got married. She told me she was, but I kind of don't believe it. I think she was trying to protect me so that I would be that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And so I really would want to, I would really want to know that. I would want to ask so many questions. I did ask her once, like, she was so good with

people. And, you know, it was almost annoying sometimes because I'd break up with a boyfriend and then I'd be driving up at home and like, ugh, his car is out in front. And they'd be just sitting there talking to my mom, having a cup of coffee. Was your mom my mom? It's weird. Really? Are we sisters? Yes, my mom was the same. Same. Same. Everyone loved my mom. And I remember saying to my mom ones like I choose between him or me because I will circle the block and not come home until that car is gone. I will not come home because it was just like, come on already. But I wanted to, you know, I asked her once, what would you have done if you had been educated? If you had been

schooled in America and you had gone to college, what would you have done? And she, without hesitation, said, I would have been a psychologist. And I think she would have. People opened up to her. They said things to her that were, you know, very personal and very deep. But she was a listener. Yeah. She listened.

But that song is so powerful because it just reminds us, all of us, to not just look at one dimension of a person, even those who are closest to us, but try to see them for the full sum total of their human. in relation to you and not in relation to you. Okay, round two, insights. Okay. One, two, or three. I'm going to go with a one.

One. What's something you thought about yourself that you had to unlearn? I really have to, I'd have to say I have been such a people-pleaser my whole life. And so it was sort of a new experience, and I had to sort of go through growing pains of learning to say what it was that I wanted or what didn't work for me. And to declare in some ways your own self-worth to be able to say, if I need something or, if I need something or, Or if there is something that is really important to me, that I don't have to allow that to go away because somebody else's need is more important to me. Now, I'm not talking about, obviously, things like, you know, real needs that people need you. I'm talking about the daily sort of things that come at you that...

Letting those things be subsumed by other people's desires. Exactly. Yes. Yes, and it can wear you down. It can really, really wear you down, and you feel like depleted almost. And so I'd say it would be that, you know, a little less people pleasing, a little bit more boundaries, a little bit learning how to say no more, and saying yes. I remember hearing this one great saying once, which is if you say no to something, you're saying yes. to something else. And I really like that. You know, it's not like you're giving up something to say no. You're actually gaining something. Right. Okay. Three new cards. One, two, three. Okay. I'm going in order now.

Two, what has age taught you about love? Oh, so much that how you love when you're younger is very different from how you love when you're older. It doesn't go away. It gets deeper. I remember when I was having my second child, I was talking to the pediatrician, and I said, you know, my older son is having a little bit of an issue welcoming a new sibling. And he said, yeah, it's kind of like they've had it all the way that they want. And now you're bringing a new person into the mix. And you're trying to tell them, but I'm going to love you exactly the same way as I love you. but he said to it was very good he said but your heart gets bigger so it's not like your heart shrinks when somebody new comes into your life it gets bigger so over the course of time i feel like it does get bigger you you want it to be bigger you want it to expand and so in that way i think love expands your your love for your family expands your love for your friends expands um your love for your husband, everything just gets bigger and deeper. Also, someone asked you, because you've been married to Tom Hanks for a long time, so you get all kinds of questions about how do you stay married?

And your answer, which I think is very funny, is that, well, you just don't get divorced. And you say that as a joke, but it really, so much of it is just true. Just like, there's a lot to be, just keep showing up. There's a lot to be said for the actual commitment that you've made when you marry somebody. Just don't stop. Yeah. But look, that does take two, you know? And it really is that I do have to say there is that shared value.

But look, when I really never thought that I was already, you know, I would say older. And that I had not really fallen. Yeah, I had not really fallen in love with anybody until Tom and I got together. So it was like a dream come true. I just couldn't believe that it was actually happening. I thought it was like something that was a fantasy. I didn't know. So here we are.

Last three in this round. One, two or three. Three. When has selfishness served you well? You're like run a theme. Yes. Yes, that is. Well, okay.

selfishness. I always think of selfishness as it being a bad thing. Right. But, you know, I grew up in a family where everything was really out there. It was really hard. Like, I didn't have a lock on my bedroom door. We had one phone in the house. And, you know, if you were on the phone, everybody could hear you. And I learned recently something that blew me away, which was, in the Greek language, there is no word for privacy. There is the word private. You are, that's a private piece of property or a private room. There is not this concept of personal privacy. And I think it's because in these Greek small towns and small villages where most people grew up in the old country, everybody knew everybody's business.

And so you had to be very careful. And, you know, it's communal. Exactly. Everybody's, yeah, and if you were smoking a cigarette behind the shed, somebody was going to tell your mom or your dad, or if you were kissing a boy, you know, at the bus stop, they were going to know. And so there was this, what it was related to was this concept of shame. Like you could not bring shame onto your family. And so everybody was always looking around. Like, I remember my mom would say in her village, if somebody invited them over.

and she was at somebody's house and they said, would you like something to eat? She was instructed to say no that she was fine because they were this widow with these four kids and they didn't want to feel

as if they were needy. They had a lot of pride and so they were instructed to say no so that it didn't look as if they were hungry. And that, I think, I think my mom and dad carried that into...

To not be a bother. To not be a bother. And also... Exactly right. And to keep it like, don't share anything that could be used against you. Right. Which is so strange to me. Now, especially when we live in a society where everything's out there. Right. So have you, on the selfishness issue, taken that and metabolized it in a way that now you have given yourself the permission and the freedom to say, this is what I need? I am going to do music. And maybe I'm not going to let this person access my life. And I'm going to erect some boundaries. I'm going to ask for privacy in a way that may not have been okay for your parents'

generation. I did, that selfishness did apply because for many years I just stopped, I would keep getting offered the same kinds of roles, which, you know, they were always a version of somebody nurturing, you know. And I love that. And it's great. But I've exhausted doing that. I don't want to be. Right. Exactly.

And yet it's very challenging for people to see you do something different. They don't see you. So it's almost like starting over again, even in acting, to be able to say, I can do other things. And music for me was completely. liberating in that way because it was all in and and it still is all in. Gratefully so. We've reached the last round, beliefs. Three new cards. One, two, or three. Let's go three. Three. Are there any recurring symbols that show up in your life? Symbols. Well, I really feel, I don't think I'm uncommon. It's uncommon, but I I see butterflies and I think it's my mom.

You would not believe, Rita, the number of conversations with people I have who especially, it's moms specific. It's moms in birds and butterflies. Birds. Birds. The damnedest thing. So many people experience this. I know.

And it's, it is wild. And when I was expecting my youngest son, a. Butterfly came. Now, the butterfly, I was outside and the butterfly sat on my belly for an hour, that my mom was still alive at that time. But what was that? I mean, like that, I mean, why would a butterfly sit on your belly for an hour? I didn't move. I just sat there with it.

I love that. I love that. Okay. Do you new cards? One, two, or three. Two. What do you look forward to about being older? I'm thinking about will I go gray one completely, because you know it's all natural.

It's amazing. I really, like for me, what's exciting to me is that if there's ever any moment where I, that I, that. whatever I'm doing is breaking a norm that people can be inspired by to say, well, she did it, and why can't I? That would be really happy. I would love to continue to be doing something in that way to just, if I keep doing what I'm doing, hopefully other people will be inspired by it also. because like I said, there's no clock on creativity. I just went to a show in London of a woman, an artist. Her name is Rose Wiley.

She was having her first solo exhibition at the Royal Academy of Art at 92 years old. Oh, that's amazing. 92, her first solo exhibition. She's been painting all her life. So to me, it's like we're only limited by what we either, what happens to us in our life. life, fortunately, not too bad. But if life is good, if you're healthy and you, there is something you love to do and want to do, I hope people keep doing it because there's a lot we get from that.

There's so much reflection that goes along in that process of writing a song or cooking a meal or painting a painting because your mind is allowed to wander and process. I, I really believe that. I believe we need that quiet time and that solitude so that we can keep moving forward in the things that we want to be doing. Last one. One, two or three. One. What's something you want younger generations to understand? Oh, that's so good. to understand the importance of having friends of all ages. You learn so much, I learned so much from my younger friends, my friend's daughters, and my family, there was always somebody older around.

And hearing those conversations between older women is always. also incredibly valuable or older people. But to me, it's really about that conversation that we could be having with each other at all times. Do you think we don't do enough of that? I think it's hard, you know? I mean, there's so, so many times you're just with people and they're looking on their phones or, you know, they're like, hold on a minute, or everybody finishes a meal. They pick up their phone instead of smoking a cigarette like we used to do in the old day. Like the good old days. And I would also say be open to listening.

You know, conversation is one part of it and listening is the other part of it. You know, what is it that somebody is really needing to tell you? And, you know, how do you take that in? And gosh, there's, listening is really. underrated. Boy, is it important because I will take something I've heard and I will ponder that for a really long time. It's so important and it sticks with you and stays with you. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. In the memory time machine, you revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything

about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. Oh, which moment do you choose? Oh, I probably have to say giving birth the first time. I mean, which part, Rita, a lot of it's very hard. Which part do you want to linger in? The moment that they put that beautiful baby on your chest and you're meeting this soul for the first time. and you are, it's almost like the focus and the concentration is so vivid and so focused. Like everything is brighter colors.

The smells are different. The sounds are different. The touch is different. All of your senses are engaged in the most perfect. way, including everyone around you, you know, that just that joy, that tenderness, that love, that hope, the future, the power of being, of what your body can do and what it has done. Oh, yeah, that's great. Rita Wilson, it has been such a pleasure.

Rita's newest album is called Sound of a Woman. Thank you so much for doing this with me. Thank you, Rachel. Thanks so much for listening. If you like this conversation, then I think you should go and check out my episode with Melinda French Gates. Although she and Rita Wilson are in vastly different fields, there's something really familiar about their commitment to doing the work they care most about. This episode was produced by Mitra Arthur and Lee Hale.

It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Josephine Neonai, Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni, and our theme music is by Rom Tina Rablui. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.