Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Ronny Chieng is still chasing the perfect joke

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

Comedian Ronny Chieng's original path wasn't to become a correspondent on "The Daily Show." Plan A was to be a lawyer in Australia. But when he couldn't get a job in law, he turned to comedy as a backup. He talks to Rachel about his path to success and how he's more like his parents than he realized. His new stand-up special is "Ronny Chieng: Love to Hate It." To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hey, it's Rachel. Just wanted to let you know that if you want to watch this episode, we've got a full video version of it. Just search for NPR Wildcard on Spotify, YouTube, or you can go to npr.org. How do you consciously try to emulate your parents? Oh. I try not. I don't think anything is that impressive. That's how I mimic them because they're not. easily impressed by by much.

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card. The show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is comedian Ronnie Chang. I'm just looking for the funny bit. You know, wow.

If it happens to touch upon politics, so be it. If it happens to touch upon race, So, okay, as long as it's a funny bit. When you've watched Ronnie Chang's comedy, it becomes pretty clear that this is a guy who takes none of his success for granted. He knows life could have turned out differently. What were the odds that a 20-something Chinese-Malaysian guy

trying to launch a comedy career after law school in Australia was going to make it big in America? Whatever the odds were, Ronnie Chang beat them to become one of the biggest names in comedy right now. He's been a regular correspondent on the Daily Show since 2015 and is now a rotating host. He absolutely crushes his role as Jimmy O'Yang's best friend in the Hulu Show Interior Chinatown.

And he's got his third Netflix comedy special out now called Love to Hate It, which made me laugh so hard I started recommending it to anyone within earshot. The comedy in his specials is always personal in some way, like a lot of comics. It's rooted in personal experience and observation, but this one is especially so, from stories about the challenges

and absurdity of IVF to his dad's death. He weaves in and out of these intimate places in the most hilarious way possible. Throw in some razor-sharp observations about masculinity and YouTube in the Trump era. And boom, you got yourself an epic comedic journey. Well worth the ride. And I was left wanting to know a whole lot more

about how this guy sees the world and understands his place in it. So with that, Ronnie Chang, welcome to Wildcard. Hey, thank you so much. That might be the nicest, best, written intro I've had for me. Are you pulling my chain? No, I'm not. That was like

very MPR award winning. It was very accurate. I appreciate it. Thanks so much. Yeah, you're very welcome. I live in fear of someone thinking, God, you really phoned that one in. So, um, thank you for appreciating it. Yeah, thank you. All right. Let's go. Let's go, Ryan, Jane. Round one.

Memories. One, two, three. Okay, go three. Okay, when's the first time you really got in trouble? The first time I really got in trouble. Oh, man. I think there's a lot of trouble I got into. I'm trying to find the one that I can actually talk about in public. My sister and I were in Manchester, New Hampshire.

This was like 1989. and we were kids and we were outside in the snow playing and we would just slip and fall because the sidewalk was slippery and we would get up and we would be all red because it was cold right like our cheeks were red our hands got red and my mom thought that we were all red

because we hurt ourselves falling on the ice because we came from Malaysia and we didn't know how bodies reacted to cold and so she yelled at us for like severely hurting ourselves in the snow but we were like no no we're not injured this is just what happens when you touch something cold for too long I think that was the first time we got in trouble with something but you didn't even do anything wrong yeah but that's a lot of Asian Asian stuff is you get in trouble for not doing anything wrong. That's a lot of the stuff you get in trouble for as a Chinese kid is for like, we didn't even

do anything. That was your first memory. Did you? She didn't punish you. She was just like stern with you. She yelled at us and then we were like trying to tell her that no, no, no, we're not hurt. We're just, this is what happens when you touch something that's too cold. You get a little red.

And she like half didn't believe us, but it didn't, it didn't escalate further. It was just one of those like, oh, oh, we're being wronged here. but it's okay, it's not big... I don't know. You didn't get grounded. No, no, yeah. No, no. Second question, three new cards.

Okay. One, two, or three? Two. Two. How do you consciously try to emulate your parents? Oh. Wow, that is a good question. Consciously.

Hmm. I try not... I don't think anything is that impressive. That's how I mimic them, because they're not easily impressed by much. And so... No, but in a good way, I think. You know, they're not like susceptible to show biz, like, you know,

razzle-dazzle. So I think in that way, I kind of like... I try to see reality the way they see it. where it's like, oh yeah, this is not that big a deal. That's not that bigger achievement. I think that would be helpful in your line of work, actually. Yes, yes, he does. Yeah.

Yeah. That things spiral and all of a sudden you think you're really awesome or. Yeah, yeah. It also keeps you, it keeps you working. It keeps you working to, you know, pursue perfection, right? You never think you've achieved it. So it's good. Did that ever cut the other way for you growing up?

Like if you did a thing, you wanted them to be proud of you. Maybe you were trying for a certain reaction and they were like, hmm. You know, I don't know. I don't think I was that impressive a kid. I didn't have that many great achievements anyway, so I don't feel like they wronged me by not being impressed. So no, I don't.

I was like, yeah, I was like, you're right. It's not that impressive. When I did stuff. So. And do you find that people in your line of work are, constantly, I don't know, I guess, seeking that kind of affirmation. I mean, do you find yourself falling into that trap? You know, my line of work being stand-up comedy, undoubtedly we seek affirmation through

a crowd response to our jokes, right? Like that is, we are looking for a good reaction to a joke, specifically laughter. so in that way our integrity is compromised but we don't let we don't believe our own marketing I think most comics do someone told me

someone told me like the best comics think that their material is bad and there's something to that I think as in I don't know any great comic who's like oh my material is the best in the world you know you're like

you're always looking at other comics and going man that guy's really funny I need to write a better bit you know it's like never done You know, you never feel like you have the greatest joke in the world, you know. You're always impressed by someone else's joke. That's how I feel anyway. Yeah.

Yeah. Keeps you going. Yeah. Okay. Three more in this round. Three. What's something someone told you that changed your trajectory? Change my trajectory?

I get, okay. I've never actually answered this before but because I got in my the biggest trajectory change in my life, I think would have been going from law school to doing comedy. And I made that decision on my own. Like nobody said something that made me do it.

But I think I will give credit, I guess because when, just before I started doing comedy, I was, I discovered that, there was someone from my law school who graduated maybe four years before me. So he was my law school senior whom I never met. But I discovered that he graduated and went into a stand-up comedy.

And so I was considering doing it. So I emailed him, Janice. And he didn't know who I was. And I never met him before. And I just asked him, how did he go about starting? doing stand-up comedy from law school. And he wrote this very long, detailed email, you know, telling me basically,

you have to go out, you have to get stage time, you know, this is how you do it. It was a very easy to follow. Okay, I just need to go get stage time. He wrote you like a little manual. Yes, he wrote me a manual on how to get started, which I really appreciate it. Because if you're an experienced comic,

someone asking you how to get started is a very basic question that can actually come off as quite annoying you know like what do you mean how you get started just go do it

but this guy didn't have that's what I would have said but this guy was this guy was way more patient than me and his kind of friendly email and him having this being from the same kind of background as me

you know in this law school made me go like oh okay he did it this is the next step to do it let me go try it out so I guess that kind of was one of the things that changed my trajectory

round one is done before we see start round two. I want to talk a little bit about your creative life and in particular your special. Congratulations by the way. Oh, thank you so much. I definitely connected to the administrative tasks

associated with death and the death of a parent. Your dad died a few years ago and my dad died three years ago and there is this, all of a sudden you're like a hacker and you're trying to break into your boomer parents' email

accounts and it's like hilarious. Yes, you're trying to figure out that digital lives that they barely figured out. No, because they didn't know how to work the technology anyway. So it's like password one, password two. You're just like casting the most obvious things. Yeah.

And then not to mention, you know, in addition to grief, even if you take away that digital component, you're still dealing with, just dealing with the analog life is complicated. Oh, yeah. there's a lot there's so much stuff involved I mean I was just at my my parents house going through all these

photo albums and we had to decide which are the photo albums that we keep and which ones are we like I don't know we've seen it sounds bad to throw away pictures but there's so many and at some point you've got to be like I guess we're not going to keep these and that feels sad

yeah but the third option you could digitalize it right Oh my god, Ronnie, I'm never doing that Oh, you never doing that? Did you do that? No, we didn't throw it away We kept it all Because it was We didn't have to get rid of my dad's place

So it's all there still So basically I punted the problem It's still an issue But I gotta go Like decluttering your parents' place is Yeah, it's something they don't tell you about That you have to do one day one of the comics who saw your special kind of early on, I read this in some article, suggested to you that maybe you wanted to remove a section of your special right now.

Like it starts with these very personal places and talk about your dad's death. And in the middle, there's this bit about MAGA and masculinity and YouTube and exercise bros. Yeah, yeah. and the connection between all those things. And I read that one comic was like, I think you should leave that stuff out. Wow, you did your research. I can't even remember this.

But I clearly didn't listen to them. I just left it in. Yeah, I put it in. So, yeah. Is there any part of you? I mean, does this political moment expand your comedic possibilities or contract them? I think it does It's not really about the politics of the of now

I think for me it's just what's a funny bit You know I think when you think about it with the politics It's almost like the tail is wagging the dog Or at the very least that's not how I go into it Looking at comedy I'm just looking for the funny bit You know wow if it happens to touch upon politics So be it you know

If it happens to touch upon race okay, as long as it's a funny bit. And so for me, I felt as I was describing a situation that I felt was very funny to me and it also felt very prevalent to me. Like that idea of guys get losing their minds on the internet. It felt very funny and also real to me. Like I've seen it happen. So I wanted to talk about it.

I figured out this bit. I put it in. So the question for me wasn't, is it political? or not. The question for me is, does it, is it funny on stage? And then is it funny in the special? You know, and can, and does it translate to video? And that, those are the only two things that that really, I focused on for this special. Well, it was, I wasn't lying. I laughed out loud by myself in my kitchen. Many, many times. Thank you so much. It's really good. I hope you're proud of it. Okay. We're moving on to round two.

Insights. Three new cards. One, two, or three? One. One. What was a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing? I couldn't get a job coming out law school. My grades were too bad, and I couldn't get hired.

And everyone around me was getting jobs, because I went to a very good law school. So everyone around me was like this very hyper-competitive. type A people who were getting really good jobs at these big law firms. And I felt a little left out at the time. But in hindsight, I'm like, oh man, I'm so glad I never got hired because I think it would have been more difficult for me to quit a job and do comedy. As it was, I just didn't have anything to lose so I could just do comedy. It wasn't like I had to pick between comedy and a corporate job.

I never had to make that decision because I never got hired. Ronnie, why weren't you getting hired? What was happening in those interviews? I wasn't a good student. I wasn't a good law school. My grades were bad and I think I also was like just not smart enough. Like my wife, I went to law school with my wife and she's like a genius. Her grades are like amazing.

She got like all these job offers. But I couldn't get a single one. So were your parents disappointed that that didn't. No, they want because I never told them. What do you mean? I just didn't tell them I was doing comedy. They thought I was studying for the bar exam, which I was in fairness. But in that time, I was just doing comedy.

And by the time they found out, it was almost like too late. That's awesome. Yeah, that's the secret. Led this separate life, but you were, I mean, assuming you were in a good and enough place that when they found out they weren't traumatized. You're like, I'm a comedian and I can pay my rent. So it's okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Is that where you were? Yes. They only found out honestly when I got hired on the Daily Show. What? Yeah. Wow. Did they know what the Daily Show was?

No, no. They didn't know. When you called to tell them, I got this thing. No, they didn't know. They didn't know what it was. They didn't know what it was. but they after

I told them I got hired they didn't know what it was and then like a couple days later they googled it they found out all about it they were like oh you know this is an important show it's a very famous show

and I'm like yeah I know I know it's something yeah they kind of trained me to be like it's a you know it's just an opportunity it doesn't mean you're good it just means

it just means you have a chance to do something cool right like that's that's what it was So that's what I took it for. And that's really what the strength of being on the daily show is. More so than fame or whatever, it's like this opportunity to work with extremely talented people and really become better yourself.

Because everyone at that show is so good at their jobs that you don't want to be the weakest link. And so you lift your game. So that's really the... That's why it's the best job in comedy. You know, it just makes you a better writer, performer, comedian, satirist,

you know, that show is, yeah, it's just, it's like the Harvard Business School of comedy. Yeah.

Okay. Three more. One, two, or three? Three. Three. Yeah. What's a quality

you're drawn to but don't possess? That's a really good question. I know. I like this one. Yeah. People who, are always able to put out good energy.

I think that's very invaluable to always be able to give good energy to other people in the room. I aspire to that. Oftentimes I fail. Oftentimes I'm the one just... Because I know I'm a grumpy dude. So oftentimes I'm the one who's like,

oh, just, you know, sometimes I try not to bring the mood down, but sometimes I'm the guy who's just like, I don't have any enthusiasm for this birthday party. And I can't hide it. But I admire the people who are always giving out positive energy. Like, I think that's a good trait. Yeah.

I think guys and girls are a little different as well. I think girls want positivity from their friends all the time. I don't think guys need that. I don't think guys need... No, dude. I'm calling you out on that. Okay, I might be wrong. No, not that we don't appreciate it.

We don't hate positivity. I'm just saying we don't need it like oxygen, you know? Like, we don't need someone next to us just being like, yeah, we can do it. You know, like cheering for us. Roddy Chang! Yeah, we don't. No. No, no.

No, denied. Okay. No, I don't want that. I'm a lady. And I don't want like a positive cheerleader next to me. Oh, hey, no, good. I'm like a hard, cynical. Okay.

Sure. Trash talking. Okay. Yeah, I'm off base then. I'm off base with it. I was more asking the question than making a statement. I think it's, I know that I actually have an intolerance. This is hard to admit, for really over the top positive people. It turns me into the not great version of myself. Okay. When someone's being like over the top positive, it becomes annoying. Like I don't, that I agree with you. I don't want that. I'm just saying that there's an energy, you know, to answer your original question, there's the energy that people have, which is the right amount of positive, right?

And that's what I aspire to. And that's something I think I don't have. I think you're a very positive and lovely person. But I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying. This is the beliefs round. Okay. One, two or three.

Two. How have your feelings about death changed over time? Oh, yeah. It's become more real. The older you get, the more people you know who have died. So that is a bit of a bummer. It is. So that's changed.

You know, it used to be this kind of, for me, it was this kind of conceptual abstract, right? And then it's become very real the last couple of years. Relatives and friends, unfortunately, seeing it up close. and I think So it becoming more real Was kind of frightening But I was studying Buddhism recently

And there was this very interesting concept That I'm going to butcher Because I'm going to give you the cliff notes of it In like five seconds But the idea was something like We are a different person In every moment anyway Our thoughts are different

our cellular makeup is different in every second, every moment, meaning we are different people in every second or every moment anyway. So the concept of me doesn't really exist because I'm constantly changing anyway. And so when I die, it doesn't matter because I never really existed. And that is, you know, so that is kind of like the Buddhist, answer, I think, one of the Buddhist answers to that. I like that idea. Does that mean that when a person dies, you think that it's just another transition, or are they gone?

I think that unfortunately, as a person observing someone dying, that person is gone. I'm just talking about me personally for me to come to terms of my own mortality. That's how I view anyway. I never really existed. I'm different every moment. So if I go, that's just another change. Right? That's how I do.

I deal with other people, that's tough. I think that requires a different concept. Yeah. Last question, Ronnie Chang. Okay. One, two, or three? Three. What's a place you consider sacred?

Oh. Wow. many places. Yeah? So many places. In bed. In bed. Don't disturb me.

Unless you're my wife. You can disturb me. Come on. What do you mean? It's the most sacred place you could be. No one else. Like, how many people are you going to let into your bed? Explain why?

How many people are you going to let into your bed? Also, when you're there, you're usually resting. That's true. If not outright unconscious and asleep. So, like, isn't that? a sacred thing for yourself to be like, this is just for me and my wife. Don't no one else coming.

I'm not going to let press into my bed. Yeah. No, I get it. I get it. I should not have dismissed that answer. Also, it's where you go to recharge, literally, right? You go a bit tired, you wake up, hopefully not tired. So it's energizing.

It clears your head, right? It's very, I think it's a secret, but. But especially as you have admitted to being, sort of a grump. Yes. You strike me as a kind of person who needs alone time. Yes.

Like, to just, to be you, to be funny or whatever, to do your job, but just to live, you need to be alone a little bit. Be alone, yeah. I think also, I mean, take it outside the context of a bed.

I think stand-up comics spend a lot of time on the road, unfortunately, and we spent a lot of time on the road by ourselves. So, you know, I don't know whether we develop that or that's a characteristic that, you know, lends itself to stand up comedy.

But either way, I think comics are quite okay with being kind of loners, you know, most of the time. So I think that's, yeah, it doesn't lead to healthy mental health. But I'm just saying that's something that you can't get used to. Okay, so we end the show the same way every time. it's a trip in our memory time machine Oh no Okay Try very how to lock that stuff away

But here we go We're gonna go down there Okay NPR hit me I want you to pick one moment That you would go back to in your past That you would not change anything about You would just linger there a little longer Oh

I can't pass on this I kept one pass right Can I pass on this thing It's just I can't Yeah This This goes against my religion

I'm supposed to stay in the moment I can't go back and do that It's not I don't know I can't think of what Something I go back to I don't know I can't

How about The first time I I Watched Came back from school And watched Sesame Street. Is that lame?

I don't know. It's your memory. It's not lame. No. Sure. First time I came back from school. How old were you? How old were you?

Five years old. My mom and my dad were there. My sister was there. I was watching Sesame Street. That was a nice moment. Was it Big Bird? Was it Oscar? I need one more.

I need like one more detail. It was definitely Big Bird. I'm pretty sure. All the guys were there, Burn, Ernie, Oscar Grouch. I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, it was the, there was the, you know, the one, two, three, four, five,

six, seven, nine, ten, 11, is that, is that, uh,

do, do, do, yeah, it's probably that, that was playing. Yeah. Okay.

That is a lovely memory. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so. Ronnie Chang, his new special love to hate it is out right now. It is definitely a good time.

You should check it out. Ronnie, thank you so much for doing this. No, thanks for having me. Hope I gave you some non-psychotic answers. I mean, a couple. If you like that conversation, you should go back and listen to my episode with Seth Myers.

He was so funny and deeply thoughtful in talking about the lessons that he has learned from another institution of late night, Saturday Night Live. You can listen to that episode or you can watch it. Hello. Just search for NPR Wildcard on Spotify, YouTube, or check out NPR.org. This episode was produced by Summer to Mod with help from Ramelle Wood. It was edited by Dave Blanchard.

It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda San Juani. Our theme music is by Romteen Arablewe. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck, and we will be back with more next week. Talk to you then.