Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Sterlin Harjo gets irrationally angry in Whole Foods

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

When Sterlin Harjo was growing up, he didn't see many Native Americans in mainstream media. But Sterlin's TV show, Reservation Dogs, changed that, depicting the lives of four Native teenagers growing up in Oklahoma. Sterlin talks to Rachel about how he thinks fate has guided his life, why people should go to more funerals and how hunting feels like praying.To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcardSee pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

When have you felt overlooked? I think my whole life, I think as a native kid, you feel that way because of the lack of seeing yourself in mainstream media. I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. You know, Res Dogs definitely change that. My kids don't know what it's like to not see themselves on screen.

My guest this week is writer and director Sterlin Harjo. And no one will ever know what that feels like again because of the show. So, you know, that's pretty amazing. I got lost in a world that wasn't mine recently. And I wanted to stay and hang out with the people who live there because after three seasons of reservation dogs, I had fallen in love with four teenagers from Oklahoma. Their Native American kids living on a reservation,

trying to figure out their lives after one of their best friends dies. It is poignant and hilarious, and it echoes a lot of Sterling Harjo's own life. He is Seminole and Muskogee, and he grew up in rural Oklahoma. He's one of the founding members of this Native American comedy group called the 1491's, and all his creative work is about showing the full dimension of what it means to be native in this country.

Reservation Dogs was nominated for the Emmy for Best Comedy this year, and I talked to Sterling before the awards show. And even though he didn't get that prize, he got something better. He got to watch one of his young actors take up the mantle of representation for native people himself. Deferro Wunitai went to the Emmys with a red handprint painted on his face

as a reminder of violence against Native women. In addition to that message, DeFerro told Variety Magazine that doing reservation dogs taught him, quote, how important it is that we are the ones to tell our stories. Sterlin Harjo did that. He inspired a new generation of native actors, writers, and directors to tell their own stories, their own way. Just a heads up.

In this conversation, Sterling likes to drop the occasional curse word. Sterlin Harjo, welcome to Wildcard. We are so happy that you're here. Thank you, Rachel. Thanks for having me. So we have this game. Yeah. And I think it's fun.

I think you're going to enjoy the process. I'm excited. I'm very excited. It's one of my favorites. You say that to all the game show hosts. So let me tell you how it's going to go. I've got a deck of cards in front of me. All right?

Each card has a question on it that I'd love for you to answer. So I'll hold three up and you get to pick one at random, one through three. Okay? You have two tools at your disposal. You get one skip. So if a certain question, is just not doing it for you, you can just skip it. And I'll replace it with another one from the deck. And you get one flip is the other thing. It's basically a way to buy yourself time. You can ask me

to answer the question before you do. And then you still got to answer it. But you know, it gives you a minute to think. And you can take as much time as you want with each question. We're breaking it up into three rounds, a few questions in each round, and we'll get deeper as we go. Awesome. Does that sound okay? Yep. All right. Let's go. Here are the first three cards.

You pick one, two, or three? Two. What's something your parents taught you to love? I would say people, community. Yeah? They were both, you know, both of them are very like, if you were to talk to people in my hometown, there's a lot of love for my parents. And I think it's because, A, my dad was a martial arts instructor.

And so a lot of kids came through and took his classes. And then he worked at the school and worked with a lot of students, Native students in particular. And then my mom was like the type of person to, when someone passed away, even if we didn't know them well, or like weren't related, she would take them food and make sure that they were taken care of.

And a lot of times she would take me with her. So yeah, I think they taught me how to love community and be a part of that, be a loving branch of community. It's one thing to go with your mom when she does that, but when did it click for you? Oh, now it's on me. Like now I don't have my mom to do this.

It's on me to extend this. It's on me to love people through action. I remember at one point when I was in a freshman in college, I had a job at a barbecue restaurant. And I was a server, and it was called Bob's Barbecues in Norman, Oklahoma. And I was a server. And then to make extra money, I would just dress up in a pig suit and wave at people on the highway. And it was $8 an hour, which was like big then.

And my friend's dad died. And I remember, I just remember thinking, well, this job and sort of regular society, does not support what I need to do, so I need to just leave it. So I quit my job that day, and I went back to my hometown and just changed my whole life and kind of was there for my friend. Can I ask more about that? Sure. You were working at the barbecue and you did the pig shift every once in a while, but presumably you were working towards something? I mean, I was in school-ish. And I mean, here's the longer version.

So we were like in love. Her dad died. She was in school out of state. I quit my job to be with her. We ended up moving to Oregon together. And that's when I decided I wanted to be a filmmaker. And we moved back. A kid later.

Had a kid. That's a good longer version. Wow. Wow. Okay. Three more cards. Cool. You pick one, two, three.

Three. Were you ever obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid? Yeah, very much. I used to almost have panic attacks as a kid over the idea of infinity and that space keeps going. If I sit there and I would think about it, I would go into a place where I'm really, feeling it and knowing it and the idea of infinity and never ending. And that's too big. That's crushing. It feels like they could crush a human. I mean, there's things that like our minds can't fathom and that's one of them. And somehow built into our brains, I think, we have a way to cut that

off. Yeah. And for me, I can dip into that and that's scary as shit. Yeah, because I don't, I don't think of that. And I don't think of that. And I, I didn't as a kid. And when I do, it doesn't make me feel scared. I think it's like one of those things. Like when, you know, there's like the hormone with women after childbirth where they're like, oh, yeah, I can do that again. Or like right after they're like, oh, I'm never doing that again. And then like right after they're like, ah, I can do that again. Let's go. You know. With selective memory. Right. Right. You forget the trauma. I used to see a hand in the sky. That's crazy. Interesting. I used to see a hand in the sky. And I don't know what that was. Like,

when I was like five, four or five, I remember looking up into the sky and there was a giant hand, like the palm of a hand like that. And I would like marvel at it and I would tell my mom and them and freaked them out because I said, do you see that? You see the hand? And they would be like, uh, what? And I'm like, there's a hand in the sky. Do you see it? And I remember my mom saying, oh, yeah, yeah, I see it. That's just God counting his people, just like trying to say, something and I'd be like, she doesn't see it. And then I remember I was writing with my cousins one time, my mom and my grandma. And I saw the hand again and I was telling them, and my cousins were acting like they could see it too. And I remember overhearing my mom talking to my grandma,

obviously worried about me, going, yeah, he's been seeing that. I don't know what that is, you know. Coming up, Sterling talks about what gets sacrificed when there's not enough time for a career, kids, friends, and a meaningful relationship. So this is the point in the show before we move on with Game, where we talk about what you're working on creatively right now. And I guess my question is how, because if it wasn't clear, I fell in love with reservation dogs, how has the legacy of that show shown up in your future creative projects? I mean, it'll always be a part of it, but nothing will be that, though. It was amazing and the pressure and the putting everything into it. Sometimes I feel like, wow, I did the thing that I wanted to do.

Now what? But now it's kind of like, now I just play and have fun. You know, I just made a pilot. And it's with Ethan Hawk and Keith David, Kyle McLaughlin, Tim Blake Nelson, lots of folks. And it's a noir set in Tulsa. Very excited about that. So we'll be shooting that next year. But I see it in other people's work.

You see resdogs in other people's art. Yeah, people that worked on the show. Yeah, that's cool. I see it branching off into other people's work. People that were there and part of it. And that's cool because it's not ending. It's totally, it's part of why I ended the show. It's like all these people need to make their own stuff.

And it's like, now it's sort of branching out into other things. That takes discipline, though, to know. You know, it's time for all these other people to go out. We can't just keep doing this. There's lots of shows that keep going on for many seasons, Sterling. I mean, you can't be selfish to do that, but also you can, it's kind of punk rock, too, which I like doing things that are unorthodox and not expected. Okay, so we are moving on.

Round two. Okay. Okay. Three no cards. One, two, or three? Two. Two. What makes you irrationally defensive?

Anyone hurting my family or people that I love? Yeah. Maybe that's rational. I think that's rational. Okay, here's a funny one. With my kids, and not to be, not to throw any race under the bus or anything like that, but it happens to always be an older white woman that does this. I'll be pushing a cart at Whole Foods.

And my kids, you know, their kids, they run around. And let's say it doesn't matter their race, but a social class probably. The kids are running around and the lady would be pushing a cart fast. And the kids run out in front of them and they stop and the woman huffs and puffs and rolls her eyes. Here's the thing that I do. And I feel like Larry David when I do this, but I think that I do, and I've done it for a long time, is I talk really loud to my kid and I point at the woman and I say, guys, do you see what you've done? You've ruined her day.

You have ruined this woman's day. And she's never going to recover from it. And I say it where they can hear me. And I'm like pointing at her and then they shuffle off and whatever, you know. Another thing, I hate when people are in a hurry at the grocery store, same type of human. And they're in a hurry and they're going way too fast in a grocery store. And so I will make. like lamb noises at them or like blah?

Yeah, yeah. Like I'll do that really loud as they go by or I'll go, I'll say zip-dip-de-do or like be really loud as they go by just to make them feel uncomfortable for going so fast. There's no point going that fast in a grocery store. So those are things that I do. It's funny to me how when I ask the question, you were like, oh, I don't know, like anyone hurting my family. And then you were like, oh, no.

I got some irrationally defensive behaviors. For sure. Yeah. It always happens at whole food. Three more cards. One, two, or three? One. What feels unreachable to you?

What feels unreachable? How deep? How deep do you get on the show? Feels like a deep question. Yeah, pretty deep. You know what's unreachable? I think for me, to be honest, is I think, I think, like a calm, sustainable relationship.

There's so much work. You know, you have to do so much work. You have so much. And then I also kind of give, I think, to a lot of people. And then, you know, you also have your kids and being so busy right now. there's not time for that, you know? So I think that, you know, there's been attempts, obviously, throughout the years. But, like, I truly feel like that's the thing that's, you know, unattainable right now.

And my career doesn't make it easier. No, I know. I mean, that's the thing. When people, I talk about this all the time with friends or whoever, like, if you have a career that you love and you're good at and you had a family and you have kids, they need a lot of things. of, right. Turns out, kids,

they need a lot of stuff. Right. And they need a lot from you. And then if you are with your partner, then that's another thing

that you're trying to cultivate. And for me, I don't, like, I feel like my friendships have fallen dormant, or I haven't invested enough in,

like, friendship. Because I don't understand how people have all the things. Right. I recently stopped drinking because it takes up your life, right?

Like you, you, You go out having a good time, might have a hangover, you know, which takes up your life. And it's like, you know, like I don't, I work too much. Like, I have no time for that. Like I had to sort of dump it. Like the recovery time wasn't worth it. Yeah, right.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like, going to have a good time is easy and fun. But I don't have the hours in a day to sit around and recover from it. This is probably, I probably know how you're going to respond to this. But have you ever thought about, I mean, you're pretty successful now. you can write your calling card. Have you thought about just like taking a little hiatus creatively? I mean, you know, I do, but like I can't right now. Like I have, you know, maybe in a couple

years. Because you need to ride the wave. Yeah. Like I have projects that have been in the queue, you know, and they're ready to go. And they're getting to, they're getting made now. So, right. I got to see that through and then, you know. Yeah. And then we'll go on vacation. go on vacation and I don't know, we barely know each other. But I think that there is a relationship out there for you. Thank you. Not that you need me to encourage you on that front. But, you know, when the time is right.

Sure. It'll happen. Getting deeper as we go. I'm going to like relisten to some of the episodes and it's just all going to be like bubble gum. No one got deep. And then I'm just like spilling my guts on here. Dude, I'm telling you right now that this, I don't want you to be offended. Right.

But we're in miles of territory. You and I, we're right here. Like, there are so many other places. Let me put my sunglasses on. Maybe I'll go deeper. Yeah, of vulnerability and exposure. By all means, you do not have to do those things. I'm not like pushing anyone into that space.

Just that the spirit moves you accordingly. Okay. Last question in this round. One, two, one. One. Two, one. When have you felt overlooked? I think my whole life, I think as a native kid, you feel that way because of the lack of seeing yourself in mainstream media.

And, you know, ResDogs definitely change that. My kids don't know what it's like to not see themselves on screen. And no one will ever know what that feels like again because of the. show. So, you know, that's pretty amazing. And, you know, you sort of, you accepted what you got when you were younger, when we were younger, because it was like, oh, we're the evil bad guys in the Western that say nothing but just scream and, you know, kill white women. But now there's other examples. So do you, it's not a moment, but do you remember? a consciousness setting in when you realize this is sort of messed up that these are the people.

I remember seeing a movie called the Seminole Wars or something and I'm Seminole. My dad called me in there and it was a Western and they were all dressed like Lakotas. And at that point I knew what you know Seminoles dressed like and I knew that wasn't what we were but it was kind of this moment of like wow, it doesn't matter.

We're being represented. Sure, let's just enjoy it. You know, there's other good examples as well. One Flew of the Cuckoo's Nest was great example where, you know, you, Will Sampson, who's from my tribe, who plays the sort of mute Indian in it, who actually isn't, who isn't mute, who's tricking everyone. Yeah. So it's sort of a play on, I think, the Stoic Indian who doesn't talk and is mindless. and then you find out that he's actually tricking people all along.

That was kind of a good, you know, inspirational representation, I think, when I was young. When we come back, we talk about the upside of funerals. Three more cards. One, two, or three? Two. Is there anything in your life that has felt predestined? Yes, all of it. Really?

Yeah, I feel a little bit sometimes like Forrest Gump, and that, like, you know, Forrest Gump was always in these, like, interesting things. things. And as far as like native art and representation and media, I feel like I've been a part of so many little movements in this. And I've been so lucky and it's been very blessed. You know, like part of the thing that I did in my 30s had a comedy group called the 1491's. We've never officially broken up, but we just got jobs. And we toured reservations and did sketch comedy and showed our videos that we would do that were on YouTube and got paid enough to pay the bills, not a lot.

But that was one of the most beautiful times, you know? And it was like we were watching things shift in our universe as far as native people, like humor coming to everyone and just people being able to laugh with us. And like that was a really beautiful, beautiful time. And it's a whole era that's not here anymore. I mean, this is more like post-res dogs era now, you know. And, you know, it's just been a really cool, beautiful life. But that's different.

So I hear you appreciating all these great things that happened. But predestined destiny, like fate. I mean, all of that, I think is fate, though. You do. So is there a guiding hand in that? Like, is there a divinness? Yeah, I think that I think there could be sort of energy or something. But I was meant to meet Brian Redcorn.

Dallas Goldtooth, Bobby Wilson and Miggazee Pinsano. We all came together in this weird way. And then we all ended up going on and I hired them to be in and write reservation dogs with me. And we were meant to be together to do that. And everything that we did with our comedy group was used and implemented in the writing of the TV show. And, you know, a lot of us say this. A lot is like, man, no one would believe us. Like when we're old someday, we're going to tell our grandkids, like, well,

all of these things that we did. And no one's going to believe us because it did feel like we were destined to find each other and meet each other and become a part of this thing. Does that make you feel pretty optimistic about what the rest of this whole thing has in store for you, life? Yeah. I mean, there's also the other side of that, which is like, yeah, you did it. See you later. You know, like there's that. And now the other part of your destiny.

Right, right, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Three new cards. one, two, three, you pick. Three. How often do you think about death? All the time.

Way too much. I was thinking about it right after the last thing that we just said, actually. I was thinking about the line by the band The Turnpike Tributors in a song where he says, everybody wants to be Hank Williams, but nobody wants to die. And I think that it is definitely prevalent in all of my work. Because I think that there were people that died in my life when I was young that had a great impact on me that I just couldn't figure out. I couldn't figure out the mystery of that. And, you know, I couldn't figure out where they go.

What is this? What is this that I signed up for? And I've been exploring that ever since. What do you mean? The living part? Like they're here and then they're not here? Yeah. Yeah. Where'd they go? Yeah, where'd they go? Like when you lose a loved one, it's just this cognitive dissonance. You don't understand. They were just here. Right. And how are they not? And where do they go? And everybody says they can live on. And, you know, my mom was, my mom died of cancer. She had a long death. So she got to plant a lot of stories for us about how to remember her. So she got to buy us wind chimes and say, I live in the wind.

And that's a comforting idea for me. And it doesn't change the fact that she's still just like not here. So, yeah, I think, I mean, I think about death all the time. I mean, I think having kids is the most heartbreaking of all. Like, if you are confused by death and scared of death or confused by it and just blown away by it, wait till you have kids. And then you look at them and it's like, whoa. Like nothing good in the end.

However it is. Right. Right. The separation from them. What I also appreciated about the show, and just what you told me earlier about going around when people would die and your mom would be like, now it's our thing.

We go and we bring food. Right. But also, just like going to a lot of funerals. Like, I don't think people go to enough funerals. I don't think they do either. I grew up at them. I think they're important. And it was one of the best times because I think that people are very honest with each other after someone dies.

You know, like people that would normally not say, I love you, say I love you. There's people in my family that maybe I had a falling out with or not talking at the moment. And you just think, like, you know. Calling them might not work, but at a funeral, we'll talk again, you know. And I've seen that happen a lot with, like, family coming together at funerals and sort of throwing out the past and moving forward. I love that. Okay. Three more cards.

These are the last three. One, two, or three? Two again. Two. Is there anything in your life that feels like? praying? Hunting. Huh. Yeah. Tell me why. Because I think that praying is similar in that when we go to our ceremonial dances there at night and it's around a fire and I feel the same that I do there, which is very prayerful. I feel the same there as I do hunting. And I think because when you're hunting,

you are very close to life and death. You know what's coming. You know what's possible. You know that any minute you could be ending something and, you know, literally covered in blood. And that's sad, both devastating and sort of primal and literally what we were supposed to be doing as humans because that's how we survive. So it's kind of built into our DNA, I think. But you're also hyper-aware. You're in the forest with nothing but yourself.

You're hyper-aware, and you have nothing but yourself to contend with. So everything that you're feeling insecure about or everything that you're unhappy with yourself about or any argument that you're in at the moment, all of that bubbles. up to the surface and it's like on the edge of your eyelids and on the top of your mind and you have to deal with it and you have to be at peace with it. And it's ends up being a very peaceful thing, I think. But it's also very hard because, you know, it does bring your anxieties to the surface. We end the show the same way every time. And this is how we do it with a trip on our memory time machine.

Yep. You pick a moment from your past that you wouldn't change anything about. But you would just want to linger there a little longer. What do you choose? I would go to my grandma's kitchen while my grandma, her brothers and sisters, are sitting around the table, telling stories, laughing and talking. And I'm there soaking it all up, not knowing. that I was learning how to tell stories at the time.

And I was learning how to tell a story like them and use humor and sadness and drama and everything. And not knowing that that knowledge and the things that they were saying were going to be gone. I wish I could go back to that. Sterling Hardo is the creator, writer, and director of Reservation Dogs. Sterlin, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

It was really fun for me. Thank you so much. It was really fun for me. What a game. If you want more from Sterland Harjo, we've got a bonus wild card question with him for our wild card plus supporters. Sterling talks about a chapter in his life that went by too fast. Well, I think it probably passed too fast because it was stressful, you know. And I didn't sit and smell the roses because I was working so hard to build this career, you know,

that I wish I could go back and really be present sometimes. You can listen to that bonus episode and every one of our episodes. Sponsor-free by signing up for Wildcard Plus at plus.npr.org slash wildcard. This episode was produced by Rommelwood with help from Lee Hale. It was edited by Dave Blanchard, fact-checked by Greta Pittenger, and mastered by Carly Strange and Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romteen Arablewee.

You can reach out to us at wildcard at npr.org. We love it when you do. We will shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then. Thank you.