Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Suleika Jaouad (Encore)

Episode Date: August 13, 2026

Suleika Jaouad has written extensively about what it means to live in the in-between — the space between sick and healthy. She’s dealt on and off with cancer since her early 20s. Her latest book, "The Book of Alchemy," provides a guide on sustaining a creative practice through journaling. Suleika tells Rachel about eavesdropping on laughter and what she's learned from the people she's lost.To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hey, it's Rachel. So the team here at Wildcard, we all thought long and hard about what conversations to leave you with while we're on our brief summer break. Okay, not really that hard because this one was such an easy pick. It's got the perfect blend of irreverence and sincerity, Muppet, joy, and human heartbreak and a charming British accent to boot. Yeah, I'm talking about the Mentioniest of Mention's Brett Goldstein, who's been on my mind because the man just got himself three Emmy nominations for shrinking, the show he co-created with a show he co-created with Jason Siegel and Bill Lawrence. And of course, Brett is back as Roy Kent in the much-Ballyhooed fourth season of Ted Lassau.

It's truly one of my favorite conversations. I do have to give a language warning. We're talking about Roy Kent after all. Happy summer and enjoy. What does age teach you about love? I think if you look hard enough at anyone, you can love them. You know, if you're like, just trapped with someone, you're like, oh, fucking hell, this person's so boring, this person's so shit. That's on you.

I have to ask the right question, and I'm sure there is a key to this person. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Brett Goldstein. My one sort of rule of writing is you have to love all your characters. You have to love even, you're writing the worst.

people in the world. You, you the writer, have to write them with love. Brett Goldstein may have become a global sensation for playing a deeply cynical soccer player in Ted Lasso. But at his core, Brett's a guy who loves a big, open-hearted story, one that isn't embarrassed to show all its feelings, and maybe offer up a lesson or two about how to be a good person, which is what Ted Lasso was all about, and the hit show shrinking, both of which have Goldstein's creative fingerprints all over them. Also, any person who, you know, who says, with zero irony, that the best day of his life was spent with Muppets on the set of Sesame Street. Well, that's a person who loves humanity.

As if creating massively popular TV shows wasn't enough and hosting his own podcast, Brett Goldstein is out with a new stand-up comedy special on HBO called The Second Best Night of Your Life. Brett Goldstein, welcome to Wildcard. That was a heck of an intro. Thank you very much. Nice to see you. It's nice to see you, too. Thank you for doing this.

This is going to be fun. Let's do it. All right. Here are the first three cards. Yeah. One, two, or three? Two. Two.

What's a tradition or ritual that feels unique to your family? My dad, I don't know where this came from or why it started. And I really don't, and I hope there's not a dark story behind it. But he used to do, when we were little, he did a thing where everyone was called Trevor. and so he'd come he'd come home from work and he'd have like a bag of uh chocolates candies for the americans sweeties and he would and they would be like in a brown paper bag and he would me and my sister would be there and he'd be like and for Trevor the great or Trevor the stupid or Trevor the funny or Trevor the each of us was an adjutant

adjective Trevor the something depending on I don't know what was going on and then when we all went to we went with a load of people once to Universal Studios when they had like the E.T ride maybe they still do and when you went on the E.T ride you give your name when you queue up and at the end of it ET would go thank you Brett as you went past right but My dad, is this funny? I forget he was really funny. He made all of us say Trevor. So the end of the ride is like 20 of us, and it looked like it was broken because the T.

He was just going, thank you, Trevor, Trevor, Trevor. It was funny. I don't know where the fuck Trevor came from. I don't know who Trevor is. I don't want to know who Trevor is. Yeah. Okay. Three more cards.

One, two, or three. One. One. What's an early memory of appreciating beauty? Oh man. Maybe I've talked about this before. I don't know if this is too woo-woo. I was like always atheist.

Like always thought that there's nothing to it and it's all just sort of random chaos. And I was in Barbados and I was sat on a rock in the sea. and in front of me was the whole horizon, nothing but sea, ocean, sorry, for the Americans. And it was the sunset and it was so beautiful, it was so fucking beautiful. And I thought to myself, if there is nothing else, there is no God, there is no nothing. Why do I feel the profound urge to say thank you? And that was, you know what I mean? I was like, who am I? Why do I need to say thank you if this is all just absolutely chaos?

Random beauty. Yeah. And that was a big one. And then, yeah, that may sense? Yeah, that's a big one. How old were you? Like, when did this happen? Uh, no how old I was. Uh, when I started thinking that God, God was the sun. I basically was like, oh, God is the sun, basically. And that that's your, all the religions get in the way. All the religions are like middlemen, like brokers, going, oh, you want to talk to God? Yeah, I'll hook you out.

They're like the sunglasses. Yeah, whereas the sun is just there. You just look up. There it is. There's everything you need. Yeah. That's my, that's my heart take. Oh, my God.

I don't know how old I was. Not even at the belief section yet. Oh, that's, yeah, my belief. Because now I have a framework. Yeah, okay. But really, I'm still curious. like a young thing? No, I think I was like, early 20, 19, around then, 1920s, maybe maybe a bit older.

But I'd always been like a sort of cynical like, yeah, man, fuck it. And then I was like, oh, shit. It's the sun. Do you actually say the words or feel the... I do? You do. You say out loud, thank you. I say thank you a lot.

I say the words I use most are thank you and sorry. They're my three most use words. I mean, if you were limited, like if you were on the desert island of language and you only had a few words that you could take with you, those are good words. Yeah. Thank you, sorry. Please, thank you, sorry. There you go. Let's talk about your special.

Okay. So you keep quite busy. There's a lot of things that you do creatively. But a special is a big deal. So were you craving the audience interaction that you get from stand-up in a way that you don't get from, acting or producing or writing, which are contained environments. I've done stand-up for years and years. Yeah.

I've done stand-up for like 17 years now. And I love it. And I always do it. Even when I've been making shows and stuff, I'll still go and do. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I'm always doing stand-up. Like most weeks I'll do some good.

Most weeks? Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, unless I can't. Unless it's like the filming schedule means I can't. making a TV or film is wonderful and a privilege and amazing but it's it's hard

one of the things that's hard about it is you're managing 200 people and you're managing execs and you're managing you're trying to keep a vision and you're having to yes anthem things and the thing takes so many turns

and you're trying to keep it on a certain path and all of that and stand up is the opposite you go I just had this thought I can say it right now and let's see what happens and I don't have to check with anyone. I don't have to fucking sell it.

I just have to try it. And it's incredibly satisfying when it works. And I also think I feel a bit mad when I don't do it. Like I feel a bit ins-like, I think it's like heroin as in. I think the first time I did it was a huge, huge, huge rush. I don't think I've ever felt that rush since. But when I don't do it, I feel depressed. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean? I mean, personally, it sounds terrifying to me to do that. But I can imagine, I can't imagine the rush that one would get from that. But it's also the thing of like, my favorite thing to do is new material. And when I do new material, I realize it isn't really, it's not really saying, is this funny when you try something. What you're saying is, am I insane? That's really what every piece of new material is me going.

Based on the reaction? Yeah. How do you measure the answer to that question? Well, because if they laugh, it depends on the, if they laugh, it's like, oh, I'm not alone. You also think this. Or you can tell. Or sometimes, no, you are insane, but it's okay. We get it.

If they don't, if it doesn't work, then you truly feel insane. Yeah. The third option. Then you go, oh, I am a very, very. weird person and that's a horrible feeling. I'm alone, yeah. Yeah, I'm completely alone and I'm not part of this world. So is that a good segue?

No, in your show, when you didn't have a good segue, you just turned around. And you said, I don't have a good transition for this, so I'm just going to turn around. So this is me turning around. Okay. Coming back. Ted Lassau is coming back for a fourth season. Yeah. Didn't you go through this whole, like, emotional saying goodbye to this show?

Yeah, it did, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was very emotional. It's a strange. Yeah, it was. We all cried. We all cried a lot.

It's a strange thing. It's like I have a friend that I went to university with. I think about this a lot. He had a cat that died. His cat was, loved his cat, and the cat was run over. and they buried the cat, buried it. And he was a child. They buried the cat in the garden.

And he lay in bed so sad, so upset and crying. And he prayed and he prayed and he wished. I wish the cat would come back. And it turned out that the cat that they buried wasn't their cat. And so the cat came back. And I think about that all the time. Wait, what? They just accidentally buried a different cat?

They buried a different cat. And so I'm like, no wonder this guy's fucked in the head. He's such a weird guy because he thinks he can bring things back from the dead. Did you bring Ted Laso back from the dead? I guess I'm saying I feel like that kid, like we buried it. Are you saying everything could happen? We all cried. We had a funeral.

Are you saying we can bring anything there? It's too much power. It's too much power. It's too much power. But I'm sure you're all very thrilled. I'm sure it'll be wonderful. Are you writing this thing right now? Like, where are you in the process?

Yes, in the rightest room at the moment, yeah. Yeah. That's obviously all I can tell you, I'm afraid. Yeah, no. I hate it. I respect an NDA. Thank you. But can I also ask you about shrinking?

which I adore, I love it. I mean, they are both very big-hearted shows. Yeah, that's nice. I think the word earnest gets a bad rap. They're both very earnest shows. And shrinking, you know, it gathered these people together who genuinely seem to enjoy one another's company. I mean, maybe it was the same on Ted Lassau,

but according to my Instagram feed, everybody's like in love with it. Like, they just are, All best friends. Is that? That's true. The second pilot I did in L.A. was for Bill Lawrence.

And I remember on day one of it, I was just there as an actor. And he said to the cast, I don't want anyone going back to their trailers. You hang out. You hang out here between takes. Like, this show works based on you all getting on in real life. And I think that's really true.

And a lovely way to work. and also from a writing point of view, my one sort of rule of writing, which I had learned, is you have to love all your characters. You have to, even you're writing the worst people in the world. You, the writer, have to write them with love. And I think that is the key to it all.

And also I like the, I think it happens in Ted Latter, when it happens in shrinking, taking a bad part. person and then humanizing them and giving them love and then making it harder and harder for an audience to hate them is interesting to me. Yeah. I mean, the part of the plot is Jason Siegel's character has been this very bad and absent father after his wife has died. And so he has this arc where he realizes that. And it's lovely. It's lovely. And the honest thing is like, I don't know, like it's easy to be cynical.

It's harder to be. It's harder. And I proudly think shrinking is fucking funny. It is. It's really funny. You can be both earnest and funny at the same time. Yeah. But it's not embarrassed to be like,

hey man. Hey guys. We've got feelings and shit, right? Okay. This is the next round. Okay? Yeah. One, two, or three.

Three. What's your shortcut to a good cry? The Stevie Wonder song Lately, that will do me. You're going to be annoyed if I ask? I don't know this song, so now I'm saying it to everyone, so I need you to give me like a couple bars or something. It's like, lately I've been staring in the mirror. It's basically he's realizing that the person he's love with is not in love with him anymore.

And she's definitely having, he's starting to realize that she's having it fair and she keeps telling him it's fine, everything's fine, but he knows. He knows it's not fine. It's a very sad song, but it's a beautiful tune, and he sounds really upset. He's really singing like it's happening. So do you ever feel like you want to cry, so you turn it on, or it's just when you catch it, then it's just like waterwork central? Oh, no, I hate experiencing emotions and do my best to avoid them at all times.

but I do go to the cinema alone to get them out. For real? Yeah, for real, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I do think there's something about being alone when other people are with other people. Yeah. Like being alone together with other people?

Yeah, I think you're right. And you're all in the dark. Do you cry a lot? Like, is that part of your personal brand? No. I never cry. Shut up. I haven't cried, it is.

I mean, I'd cry it. films. I cry in films, but do I cry in real life? I don't. I guess I thought you might be like a closet crier. No, I'm emotionally repressed. I don't know. The stuff you write is so, I kind of thought that was like a schick. No. I mean, I write all the stuff because, you know, then I don't have to live it. Whoa. She's like, I got him. I got him. I just, I think that's It sounds exhausting to live like that Oh

I never sleep Really? I don't Next question One, two or three Two Two Two

What does age teach you about love? I read something that Steve Martin Said that he found Stand Up harder As he got older because, made me not stand up. Forgive me from Miss Quay.

He found the comedy part harder because he had more empathy for people, so it was harder to be mean. And I guess that's where comedy was. I think if you look hard enough at anyone, you can love them. And I do really mean that. I don't mean that in a cheesy way.

I mean it like, me at my worst, like I'm saying this is, I don't want to hang out with people. But like, you know, if you're like, strapped with someone, you're like, oh, fucking hell, this person's so boring, this person's so shit. That's on you. Like, I have to ask the right question. And I'm sure there is a key to this person that if I ask the right question, I will suddenly be flooded with love for them.

Yeah. Yeah, I do. No. But can I, can I nudge on that? How did you come to that realization? I think I've had this cycle with people. I have it where. I have it often.

And I tried to make the cycle shorter. But I've had it on jobs or something where there's a person that I will instantly dislike. Someone I'll be like, oh, this fucking, like whether they trigger me or, you know, something about them I find so annoying or they're so fucking pathetic. Something about it.

I'm like, God, they're so needy. I don't know what it is, something. I'm like, getting this person away from me. And then something will happen along the way a couple of weeks in, I'll see something, I'll see anything, and suddenly I will fight to the death for that person. Like, I'll be like, I love, I have so much love for them. I good at telling people after you've come to that, like that arc?

What do I go? I really thought you were an a-hole. No, no, they wouldn't, I hope they wouldn't know. I wouldn't say, I thought you were an absolute note. And I was wrong. Because often they still are. There's a certain type of person where it's like, you are still a nightmare, but I've now found a way to have empathy and love you.

And they probably think the same about you. No, come on. It's be ridiculous. Okay. This is the final round. Okay. Beliefs. One, two, or three.

Three. Have you ever tried to force a belief? You have a flip in a feeling? skip. I'm going to skip. Skip it because I don't think I have. I don't think I have. No. How have your feelings about God changed over time? Well, I think we address this. I think that God is the sun, basically. And you didn't used to think that. I didn't used to think. I used to think there was no God and now I'm like, oh, it's the sun. So. And by which I mean the universe. But I also do mean the sun. What? What a bit of sun people?

Aztecs? Yeah, I think I'm an Aztec. Something like that. Aztec, mine, something like that. Any religious upbringing? I was like atheist always. I always thought it was all stupid until that sunset. And then I was like, oh yeah.

There's more to this. Yeah. Does that extend to you beyond, wow, this is really beautiful and it's not just random? Do I think things are meant to be? Is there a pattern? Is there things that are meant to be, or is it just all random? No, I don't think it is all random. But it's hard to, it is, you know, the impossibility of existence is it's hard to square the magical things with the terrible things.

But I do think, you know what? Sometimes when like a really terrible thing happens, I like wonder if it's, I thought about it like, is it like an angel having a bad, Like they dropped the thing they were supposed to hold this thing and they dropped it. And they're like, oh, fuck. And then there's like a earthquake. Yeah, or someone dies or someone, you know, some sad thing happens. It's like an angel dropped it. You know what I mean?

Like they had a plan. The plan was lovely things. And then, oh, fuck. I slipped. And now lots of people are dead. You know what I mean? I don't know if I'm with you on that one, but if that works for you, then I want that to be your framework. Well, we can't square it, can we?

No, we can't. We can't. I like the idea that everything's preordained, but then why preordained terrible stuff. But then so many magical things also happen. I do also kind of believe the thing that you make your... Look, it's about gratitude. and the more you practice it, the more you see

wonderful things around you, even in terrible things. And so I do kind of believe this thing of you make your own world. And if you walk down the street and you step in a puddle, that can be, oh, fuck, everything's awful. I've stepped in a puddle and my leg is now wet. But at the same time, if the sun,

was out and there was a beautiful person across the street that you were looking at when you stepped in that puddle and there was music in the air and there was a song you liked and there's five other things happening exactly the same time that were beautiful and if you're paying attention you're going like bigger picture this wasn't the worst thing that ever happened it was just a little bit in this lovely picture you know what I mean and the more you've practiced that train your brain to do that I think yep maybe it's not yeah I agree Do your new cards? One, two or three.

Three. Sorry for the sigh. How often do you think about death? I think about death all the time. Yeah? Well, I do a podcast about death. I'm interested in death. Listen, you know, I'm a workaholic.

I can do stuff all the time. And I'm sure part of that is because I'm going to be dead soon. You know what we've got to get this shit done. And but then also I think there's, I think there's more to it, you know, I think about death all the time. What else is there to think about? Why aren't we always talking about death? So in your newfound religiosity or spirituality, I guess.

Aztec mine, yeah, yeah. Your renunciation of atheism. I don't know if we can call it. renunciation wholesale, but do you think that you die and that's it, you're done? Or is there, no, you don't. I think

the closest version of it, and I don't say this as a joke, is the Pixar film, Sol, I think is basically what I think. I think you go up, you have some fun, and then you come back as a for a whole new adventure.

Aztec Mayan Buddhist Very Very popular intersection of the alties Yeah That's what might be like that I think it's yeah You like the idea of that kind of continuity I don't know if I like the idea

As in Because part of me guys I mean forever's a long time To keep coming back Yeah and that's the thing That bums me out about it Also I've had such a lucky time that I'm like, oh, my next life, I don't know what.

You know, it seems like this was a nice one, next one, fuck, no, is I'm going to be, you know what I mean? I'm going to be a worm. Counterbalance, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do you think nothing happens? No, I don't know, is my answer. I mean, who does, right? No one knows.

But I do. I think I was pretty clear that Pixar knows exactly what's going on. There was some certainty in the universe. Pixar's cracked the code to the afterlife. Yeah. Oh, I don't think it's just like you die and then it's over, though. I don't know what the alternative is. I like the idea of being part of the air and not to get too woo-woo,

but I like that idea. I've talked about this before, but when my mom died, she was really good at creating this narrative for my siblings and I that she was going to live in the wind and that was so helpful it's so like because wind is everywhere right wind is wind is everywhere and and it you can see it manifest and how it moves things yeah um so I I love that idea do you talk to her in the wind yeah I love that you're going to make me cry at Berkultzstein but yeah it was I think she knew what she was talking about I don't I think on the one hand it was a helpful story to tell us but

now that I'm on the other side of it. Yeah. And to see that happen, like, I think maybe she knew. But that's very special. And I bet sometimes a wind will happen and it will make you think it's a sign that you needed. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I like that very much. Well, thanks for letting me tell you. Thank you for sharing it. This got serious all of a sudden. Okay. It's the last one.

One, two or three. One. Are you comfortable with being forgotten? Great question. Legacy. You're asking about legacy. You are a smart chap. Legacy, does it matter?

Does anything matter? It'll all be gone in a life cycle of 150 years. I think there's someone I won't name who is a creative, famous creative, who said I don't care about legacy anymore, just make stuff.

And I noticed that their output got steadily worse. It's interesting. That is interesting. And I'm not saying the two are connected, but I thought that is interesting. And I don't think I think in terms of that,

like as in I just want to make really, really, really good stuff always. I just want to make really good stuff. Whether it outlasts me, I don't actually think about. I think there's magic in, I think Alan Bennett said it, that there's something magical like reading a book from 200 years ago, that if you read it and you feel a connection to it, that it is like a hand reaching from the past to hold yours.

And I sort of buy that in terms of art or whatever this thing is. Like, you know, it's a wonderful life. People still watching it. And in fact, it didn't work at the time. It wasn't successful. And now it's this thing that people watch every year. And it helps them. Like, that's kind of amazing.

You'd like to make something like that that lives that long. Yeah, sure. Why not? Have a go. But I don't think you can work thinking that in your head because otherwise you'll be frozen. You just have to just make stuff for the present. Right. And whether anything lasts out of our hands. But yeah, it'd be nice. I do you think artists are lucky that way that you have a mechanism to do it. But it always kind of freaks me out that I don't know the name of like my great,

great-grandfather. Do you know the name of the great-great-grandfather? Or grandmother? I don't know. I can guess. I can guess because everyone, I mean, it's probably Henry. Like everyone in my family was like Charles, something. But I don't know.

The legacy is so short-lived for most of us, you know? People remember you and then you're just gone. And he just said like weird. There's a TV show. I don't want to name. maybe I want name it out of sort of respect. There was a TV show in England that was like 20 years ago, 15 years ago, it was the biggest show on British TV, like the number one watch show.

And it was a sitcom and it ran for like eight years, 10 years. No one talks about it now. Isn't that weird? It wasn't, yeah, it is weird. It was insanely popular and it's dead. It's fascinating. I don't know why. It just doesn't resonate beyond the time it was in.

Yeah. Yeah, right. So you can't set that as an expectation for yourself, as a human or as an artist, as a human artist. But are you asking me, would it be nice? Of course it would be nice. But yeah, you can't go into it going, I hope this lives forever.

I don't think like that. We're at the end. So the last thing This is the way we end every episode It's with a trip in our memory time machine You pick one moment from your past It is not a moment you would change anything about Okay

It can't be the moment on the beach Because you already said that one Okay It's just a moment You would linger in a little longer For whatever reason At moment in the past I would like to linger in longer I absolutely can't tell you my first answer

second dance who would be I don't think I'm finding this one difficult but give me another minute I'm going to sit here all day

yeah okay something I'd want to sit in I mean for real I've said it in the special but I really mean it was the best day of my life

when I went to Sesame Street and there was a thing that I watched and I could have stayed longer. After I did all my stuff and they were very, very nice to me and they still had more stuff to shoot and they said,

would you like to go? Would you like to hang out? And I was like, I'll fucking hang out. And I watched a group of grown people older than me, I believe, lying on their back on skateboards

with cat puppets on their hands riding into each other and pretending and playing catch trying to catch a ball in the air while pretending while making cat noises

and I thought this is fucking brilliant and I did think I would like to retire here on Sesame Street and just do any job on this like it was truly

be like a collective everyone imbuing this thing with magic and it was so fun and so lovely and so stupid just these fucking adults on skateboards smashing into each other and going and I thought that's fucking great it's great I could have so I would have extended the day at Sesame Street it's like so beautifully analog too to think about people for all the rather. And the fact that it wasn't, at no point are they going,

this is mad, isn't it? Like, they're just, this is the job. And they're doing their job. It took it, you know, seriously enough. They care about it being good. It's still good stuff. And at the same time, they're pretending to be cats and ramming at each other at speed on skateboards.

Oh, and the reason the special is called the second best night of your life. Oh, tell me. It's because of Sesame Street. Because I did Sesame Street, and it was the best day of my life. And the problem is, I'm still alive. Every day is a vague disappointment. So I wanted this special to be good, but I didn't want it to be so good that you had nothing to live for.

It's just the second best. The second best night of your life is available now on HBO. Brett Goldstein, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This has been a very intense therapy session. I am filled with regret for everything that I've said, and I will do my damnedest to get this all deleted. My work here is done.

Thank you for your time. If you like that conversation, go back and check out my episode with comedian Rob Delaney. He and Brett are these kind of gruff and cynical guys on the outside, but I mean, that barely covers up the fact that they have this really sincere and tender core. I loved that Rob Delaney conversation, and I think you might too. This episode was produced by Summer Tomod and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Gilly Moon. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangueni.

Our theme music is by Ramteen Arableu. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We love it when you do. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.