Wild Card with Rachel Martin - The light and dark of Ted Danson

Episode Date: July 4, 2024

Ted Danson has mastered the role of the happy-go-lucky guy with a quick wit and a quicker smile – who nevertheless has a few cracks in his sunny demeanor. It's there in Sam Malone on Cheers, in Hank Larsson on Fargo and in Michael on The Good Place. And that same duality is there in Ted's real life. He goes deep with Rachel on the light and dark sides of aging, marriage and what he calls "karmic poo."To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

How often do you think about death? Ooh, a lot. I had so much fun doing a classic spy, but halfway through it, I went, oh, don't die. And then I go, wait a minute, what you're really saying is, you are so happy to be doing what you're doing, having so much fun, don't take it away from me, life. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three.

Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. I will say, Teddy, Teddy, this is your life. My guest this week is actor Ted Danson. This very second is your life. Do you really want to be not grateful for this moment? No. I started watching the good place with my kids. It was sort of born out of my own guilt that I didn't take them to church, honestly.

So I decided at the very least, I mean the very least I could do to prevent complete moral decay was to watch a show that sandwiched real ethical questions between jokes about frozen yogurt and the infinite nature of the universe. What really captivated my kids was the idea throughout the show that people are both good and bad. We are both things all the time. Some of us are a little more of one than the other, but you get the point.

Ted Danson is one of the best representations of this. He plays Michael, who's a bad guy, playing a good guy, who actually becomes a good guy, who's still a little bit bad. In that lies the real joy of a Ted dancing performance. Because you can see this duality in so many of his roles. He's a happy go-lucky guy with a quick wit and a quicker smile. And then you start to see the cracks in that sunny demeanor. There's a darkness underneath all that goodness that gives his characters a certain depth. Sam Malone on Cheers, Hank Larson and Fargo.

even when he played a version of himself in Curb Your Enthusiasm. He's all light and fun, and then you see that little twinkle in his eye, that unforgettable smirk, how he literally skips into scenes, and you have to wonder if everything is as it appears. So we're going to try to find out. Ted Danson, welcome to Wildcard. I'm very excited to be here, especially after that introduction. So, yay! Come on, dark, please, Ted. Have some dark.

Please. Don't be bland. Don't be bland. You are never bland, my friend. I will tell you that as a longtime observer of your work. And so I'm super happy that you're here. Thanks for doing this. My pleasure.

I actually said that you skip into scenes. I've noticed that you actually do do this a lot in movies. Was it a skip or a sachet? I can do both equally well. And now that you mention it, I feel like it's more sashet. I feel like it's a, that's your natural default. is like a sashet. Yeah.

What's up with that? Well, it's just my feminine side coming out. I just want to make it clear when I walk in a room. That you encompass multitudes, Ted Danson. You've got a new podcast out. It's called Where Everybody Knows Your Name, a nice little shout out to Cheers. So, do you like it? Do you enjoy being a podcast host?

I do. Which is so odd. I would never have paged myself as somebody who, would really enjoy doing a podcast because I'm the opposite. I am in, if I'm not acting or, you know, have a script or a function or something, if I'm at a cocktail party, talking is like pulling teeth. I can be kind of surfacy and shallow and, you know, cocktail chat, but I tend to be a little more of a wallflower than you would think.

And, and here I am spending. half hour, hour, 90 minutes talking to somebody nonstop and finding out who they are, and I find it. I'm scared in the beginning always, but I find it such a gift. What makes you tick? I'm into it too. Yeah. Who made you you?

You know, how did that happen? Fascinates me. I've got a deck of cards in front of me. Each one has a question on it that I'd love for you to answer. So you too will be surprised about the question. Correct. Because keep listening to Dancent. Okay.

I'm going to hold up three cards at a time. And then you pick. And there are a couple of rules. You get one skip. So if you use your skip, I'll swap in another question from the deck randomly. You get one flip. You can put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do. I'm there.

Good student. Okay, we're going to break it up into three rounds, memories, insights, and beliefs with a few questions in each round. And because it's a game, there's a prize at the end. Oh, thank God. Maybe an award or a statue or something. It's a golden statue with your name on it, Dancin. Lifetime achievement for life. No, it's not that.

But I think you're going to like it. Great. I can already tell. Okay. So you ready? I am. You said you're working. Okay. So here we go. This is round one. Memories. Three cards I'm holding up before you. And you pick one, two, or three.

Three. Three. Yep. What was your form of rebelling as a teenager? I'm not 100% sure I ever rebelled as a teenager. I brought my parents to their knees when I was 45. But as a teenager, I smoked cigarettes. Yeah. Yeah, my father's museum had this big, huge, hopey bowl full of sand right outside the door and said no smoking. People would drive up from Phoenix, get out of the car, and we'd watch them from our hiding place. And they would come out, light a cigar or a cigarette, walk, five feet, and go, well, hell, and have to stick it out.

They would go inside, and we'd scamper up, grab the cigarette before it was put out, and run back into the canyon and smoke. I guess that's rebellion. See, you were a conservationist, even then. Yeah. Right. See, I'm a milk toast, but I'm telling you, it came later, yeah. So now I have to go there. I have to go, even if you were 45, you brought your parents to their knees?

Well, I won't be too specific, but I didn't really grow up emotionally until I was about 44. and I was a bit of a liar in my relationship. I'll leave it at that. And I started to work on myself very seriously around that time, going to clinics, and I had a mentor, a psychologist, and a mentor. And I worked very hard to not be that person who, who hid his emotions and just went out the back door. And so that was all kind of messily in the press.

And my parents, poor parents, were going, you know, and I finally called them. And they were very sweet, and they came to support me and everything. But it was, it was, the press sounded horrible. The work underneath the press was invaluable. And I'm very glad for that time, even though it was, you know, messy. Yeah. Very messy.

Thank you for that. We're still in memories. Three new cards. One, two, or three? Middle. Let's go middle. Two. Two.

Two. Two. Sorry, two. Yeah. What was a moment in your life when you could have chosen a different path? Wow. A different path. I suppose there was a while where I so misguidly thought, basketball.

You will be, yep, at Kent School for Boys, I was on a basketball team, and it meant the world to me. I mean, I was not an academic, and the only thing that got me through this intense private school period was basketball. and my coach, Jim Wood, saved my life. In what way? Save my life and that he gave me purpose. He taught me things. He taught me, you know, basketball and my coach taught me the joy of team. That it's not about you.

It's about the team. It's not, and it's very much so enacting. This is not about you scoring points as an actor. It's about the play. The play is the thing. And I firmly believe that. and I've gotten the most joy in life out of being part of an ensemble and not just by myself. You never know if that's choice that you're not Tom Cruise like career or whether, you know,

there was just no way you're going to be that. But I love ensemble. I love being part of a group. Yeah. Hey, can I ask you, is this like your lazy version of running a podcast? Because all you have to do is pick up some cards. That's not fair. Ted!

Shh. Do not tell people. I'm going to use this. This is good. Zip it. Zip it, Ted dancing. That's funny. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Ted talks about how growing older has changed his perspective on things.

You do at this age start to go, oh, you know, you have less years ahead of you than you do behind you. To the second round. All right. Give me the title of this round. Insights. Things you're learning now. All right. Okay.

Yep. Three new cards. Number two. Number two. Yep. If you got a do-over for one decision in your life, what would it be? Oof. I wouldn't.

Next question, please. You're skipping that one. No. No. No. I said, I wouldn't. You wouldn't do-over? I wouldn't look for a do-over.

No, I wouldn't. And there are things that I'm deeply embarrassed about, ashamed about. It came to you automatically. Yeah. Because if I did something over, I'm being a little bit tricky here. I know. I mean a little tricky. That I'm, you know, if I did something differently and I took a different path,

I wouldn't be with my wife, Mary Steenbridge. I know. I get that. But I also think that it is, I think people get hung up on, I have no regrets because if I did anything differently, I wouldn't be who I am today. All right. But there are things I definitely wish I had done differently. Oh, me too.

But that's numerous things. I probably can look back at this podcast and pick one that I wish I hadn't done. I have cringers. I am, you know, I am horribly embarrassed about many things. And it's cringe-worthy, you know, but that's my life. Were you always so accepting of that? Or has that been an evolution for you to look back at your life in those mistakes and embarrassments and errors and say, it's okay? Well, I wish I hadn't become a liar and walked out the back door early in life.

I wish that hadn't been me. But even your wounds, you kind of have fondness for if you've gone through them and lived through it and, you know, acknowledged it and, you know, made amends and all of that stuff. then you don't want to not have those in your life, although they're horribly cringeworthy. Did your wife, Mary, have a hard time accepting those wounds, or was that? No. No, I spoke to Mary. I mean, first off, I'm one of those people that obnoxiously vomits their life out on people.

So like on your first date, you just... Literally, the day I met her. First off, we both realized individually we said to ourselves, I said to myself, I'm incapable of being in a marriage, a relationship, because I will mess it up. You know, and it's on me. And she was saying the same thing to herself, that I know I look like I should be good at relationships, but I'm not. You know, we both had come grinding to a halt. And also had, in my case, been working on myself to be honest and real. And she accepted you for all the things.

Yeah. So from day one, in essence, I was like a convert, you know, to truth. So I, you know, I had to, you know, lay out. I get it. Yes. The drunk on the street knew who I was because I'd stop and tell the drunk on the street, who I am. But our life is so empty of secrets, you know. And if there's even a momentary one where a shoot,

I didn't exactly tell the truth, it's so devastating that it, to me, for me, that I immediately grind all and say, I've got to talk to you. You know, so being truthful is such a, it just greases the skids of life, man, being truthful. our life together doesn't mean we don't deal with hard things. But our life together is very full of laughter and joy.

Yep. We're very blessed. Thank you. Yep. For that. I also think of that's a good lesson for everybody. Okay. This is the last one in the insights round.

One, two, three, three new cards. Are these three new cards so I don't have to. There's three new cards. Every time. There's three new cards. So you're not picking the residuals. Gotcha. I'll take number one.

Is there anything you long for? I'm going to flip it just because I'm tired of talking. What do you long for? Ha! Rachel, you're on camera. What do I long for? I long to stop longing. I don't mean that to be like, oh, so meta, philosophical.

But I long to just be okay. I long to just stop Okay with yourself. Stop looking. Yeah, stop looking for external validation and stop looking for to meet other people's definition of success and to just be okay.

Just be okay with where I am. And that's... Well, it's so interesting that you say that because you present the exact opposite. You totally present the exact opposite. I mean, thank you. I'll take that as a compliment. But I think all of us struggle with that.

Like, you know, it's learning to appreciate things and not look at something and say, if only X would transpire, then I would be happier. And if only Y would happen, then this relationship would be better and then I would be more content. And that relationship might never get better. And it's just, it's just, I long to stop longing. Yeah.

All right. Wow. What you got? Thank you. Yeah. That's very cool. This interview just got really interesting. No, really.

Thank you. It's, it's good to share stuff with other people. That's cool. That was real. Wouldn't it be funny if I went, well, I'm going to skip it. You can't. When you flip, you can't skip. Oh.

Okay. So wait, ask me again. What do you long for? Right. Huh. Longing is kind of a lovely word. It doesn't feel bad, morose, you know, hopeless. It feels wonderfully.

It's kind of warm. Yeah. I don't know. Longing. Very little, but let me, I don't want to. I think that's a lucky thing, yeah. It is. But I will say that being 76, and no matter, and I'm not doomed myself to a certain amount of time left on this earth,

but you do at this age start to go, oh, you know, you have less years. ahead of you than you do behind you. And it's much easier for me to catch myself when I am into longing, meaning I wish that or, you know, I'm worried, you know, which all kind of come into that longing for something other than right, what's going on right this moment.

I will say, Teddy, Teddy, this is your life. This is your life. This very second is your life. Do you really want to be? you know, worrying or angry or sad or, you know, not grateful for this moment? No. And it's not to be a goody-to-shoes. It's to make my body feel better. You know, if you're grateful, all of a sudden, you've got joy running through your veins again, and it feels good. So I think it's good to have these desires, you know, and it's good to visualize what that would be like and then behave as

if you're already there, not like an idiot, but, you know, dabble in allowing yourself to feel, yes, I have that, as opposed to, no, I don't, and I wish I did. And then be joyful and grateful in this moment and behave as if you did have what it is you're longing for. I love that. It's much more imaginations are powerful, aren't they? Yeah, I do think you manifest. And even if I'm wrong, I feel good. Right. You know? I don't think I've answered one of your cards, but I have babbled.

In a moment, Ted Danson introduces me to some new spiritual terminology. Karmic poo coming my way. We are now into beliefs. Okay. Three new cards. Yeah. One, two, three. Three.

Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you found out wasn't true? Was there a bedrock truth in my life that I discovered wasn't true? Right. Are beliefs, is that mean you think something is absolutely real and true and factual? Is that a belief? Because there's faith. I think he does. I have faith that there's an afterlife.

I have faith in that there is something, you know, godlike or supreme, other than, you know, just what we see in front of us. I have faith that, you know, love can change. I have all these different faiths. But if you call them beliefs, then I don't want to defend them because beliefs all of a sudden are like belief is, you know, so-and-so believes this because of their religion. And now you can't have a conversation or, you know,

I'm not interested in arguing. with somebody over beliefs or put my belief out there with the assumption that I think it's the way to go. No, everybody gets to have their own beliefs and their faith and all of that. Has your faith ever been challenged? No, not challenged. I do remember watching my, you know, I've read, you know, Alan Watts. I've read all my different philosophy books and my mentor took me.

years ago when I was in my 40s through all sorts of different spiritual explorations and I went to church with my mom who was Episcopal then converted to Catholic and I had all of that information and then I was sitting with my mother while she was dying. She chose to die, came home because she had pneumonia she couldn't shake and didn't want to go have tubes in hospitals and she was 88 or 9. and my sister and I took different shifts. I did the nighttime and she did the daytime. But I remember sitting there when she had mostly was no longer able to talk to us. Or, you know, she had been, for all intents of purposes, she was no longer there.

Her body was still going. And I remember thinking, oh, I don't know. All my beliefs and faiths and things went flying out the window. and I had this deep realization that I do not know. I think that maybe she knows at this moment or she's about to know, but I don't know. And it doesn't matter. I became happy with not knowing.

And I'm getting back to the good place, you know, just try to be a little better every day. You know, try to be more nurturing to those. Try to be more kind. and try to be more understanding and loving and real and all of those things. Just try to do it a little bit better every day. And that'll do. I don't need the big beliefs, you know, because I don't know, and I'll find out in due time.

Thank you. So now three more. You do know that I'm being totally guarded and just putting out the kind of glorious part of Ted. What? Now you just told me that. You realize you just said that out loud. I know. No, but it's kind of true.

I mean, if I were sitting here with Mary, we would laugh at all of the, you know. At all the stuff you weren't saying? Yeah, yeah. And we would poke fun of each other. We delight in each other's foibles because we love each other and we want each other to grow. But we delight in growing, wait a minute, you know, not so fast, Mr. Perfect. Mary, Mary keeps me in check. She's glorious and celebrates me nonstop.

It's a wonderful thing. Oh, we should all be so lucky. Yeah, we should. Yeah, okay. Here we go. Still going. Yep. Three more.

Yep. One, two, or three? Three. Okay. Oh, well. How often do you think about death? Oh, a lot. It's usually a version of, I mean, not.

literal death, but I see, I flip my brain. I've trained it and I like it and it may not be real, but my brain immediately tries to contextualize and spin myself away from fear. I don't like living in fear. And I have tons of it, you know, it comes up. I had so much fun doing a classic spy that I just finished. for Netflix that halfway through it, I was going, oh, don't die. Let me finish this. Really? To yourself? That's what you were saying? You know, I haven't, I have a, something hurts.

You know, oh, is that mean I'm, you know, I'm incapable of finishing this? Oh, you know, but then I go, wait a minute. What you're really saying is, you are so happy to be doing what you're doing. You're so joyful, having so much fun, don't take it away from me, life. you know so instead of being fearful just say oh my god thank you thank you thank you for this

blessing that i have thank you for this job thank you for whatever because then i can live in gratitude which is more joyful and i don't have to live in fear you know i i will contextualize my way out of fear as much as i possibly can there are times COVID COVID was like a brick wall for a while. It was like, damn, I can't spin my way. I got no context here. I got no context. So I have a, I guess I have another question related to this because you did, you, you have talked publicly about suffering from plaquesoriasis for a long time. And I wonder if that experience made you think differently about your body and your own kind of physical fragility. Oh, definitely and and and I can never look at myself in the mirror I have you know I was born without a

chest muscle I was six foot at 13 and weighed 120 pounds and then when I was 25 I got psoriasis I was I was never able to go you know oh what a glorious creature you are in your speedo you know I never had that self-affirming reflection in the mirror so it I think it made me, I think self-deprecating humor came out of that. My mother also was, you know, she dealt wonderfully with the light things of life, joy and gratitude and excitement and all of those things. When things were dark, which life has, she had trouble with that. So there were things like phrases like pride goeth before a fall.

you know, that kind of stuck in my head. And so it was like being prideful, even though I am, it was something that I tried not to be because I didn't want the fall. Even having a conversation with you today where I'm kind of forcing it to be on a higher level of the joy meter, because that's what I like to hear back. That's where you like to live. Yeah. It's where I like to live.

But I'm also very aware that I will step out of here and directly into a pile of carmic poo because that's just the way life, the way life works. Mr. Ted, who thinks he's so wonderful dancing, you know, we'll get a reflection of the truth. But that's fun. That's funny. Last questions. Yes. One, two, or three.

Three. Last one in beliefs. Three. Yeah. What is a place you consider sacred? Wow. I don't know why. You're bringing tears to my eyes.

I don't know. My love for Mary. Sacred. Well, my life with Mary. That didn't make me tear up. That's a beautiful thing that not many people assign that word to a relationship. Yeah, I'm very blessed. I'm very blessed, yeah. So with that, Ted Danson, you've won the game with Mary's help.

This has been really fun. I hope you feel better. I do feel better. Every time I feel better. Oh, I didn't mean feel better from playing the game with me. I just meant I know you were a feeling a little under the weather. Sorry. I hope you feel better being with me. Your presence. My mere presence. Really lifted my spirit.

Carmic poohs, coming my way. You made it to the end, so there's a prize, remember? Yes. Okay, this is the prize, dead dancing. A trip in our memory time machine. Okay. Dittlil lily. Okay, so for your prize, you get to revisit one moment from your past.

This is a moment you wouldn't change anything about. You would just like to linger there a little longer. What do you choose? Sorry, I'm editing like mad. Oh, I like that one, though. Whatever one made you laugh. The canoe ride I took with Mary, that by the end of it,

without anything necessarily happening, other than being together in the cool canoe ride, I knew I was in love. Where were you? Mendocino. We were shooting a film, and we were both knew we were incapable of relationships. So I wasn't, but I thought,

well, this would be romantic in the way that it'll be beneficial for the acting in the film. It's old-fashioned romantic. We'll go on a picnic and a canoe And up we went, and it was one of those magical days. It was a tidal river, and so you had sea otters on their back, you know, cracking oysters or clams or whatever it was. Blue heron. Mary was in the front seat with his straw hat on, and we just kept going.

And we paddled in sync. We didn't talk for, you know, minutes. without it being self-conscious. It was one of those things where, oh, wow, we are so totally in sync. And Mary kept wanting to go around the next bend, you know. And that's kind of, she actually wrote a poem about this moment I'm describing that became our vows. It was part of our wedding vows.

But it was also kind of like our life. I'm always the one going, oh, you sure. Sure, we should go around this corner? All right. I will do it. I'm with you. I'm behind you paddling, but, uh, this is scary, you know. Um, so that canoe ride was, was huge. Changed my life. Our life. Our lives. Ted Danson, his new podcast is called where everybody knows your name. Ted, thank you so much. Thank you, Rachel. Have a great day. Next week on Wildcard, legendary poet Nikki Giovanni.

pray or go to church often, but she tells me she still finds space for Jesus in her life. Well, he's a very interesting guy, and of course, when he did come from it. There are lots of interesting guys, Nikki, but like, no, they're not. Let's face that one. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Susie Cummings, Cecile Davis Vasquez, and Jane Gilvin. It was mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donner. it. Our theme music is by Romteen Arablewee. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.