Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Wagner Moura

Episode Date: February 12, 2026

Wagner Moura doesn’t compromise when it comes to doing work that feels meaningful and aligned with his values. That much is clear in the politically-charged Brazilian film, "The Secret Agent," for which he's earned a nomination for the Academy Award for Best Actor. He spoke with Rachel about getting better with age, the sacredness of performing onstage and why he's made seeking joy a priority.To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcardSee pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Have you ever experienced some divine power? There's some moments on the stage that there is a connection. Something happens. It's like there's something going on that's not from these. Between you, the audience, the third thing that becomes your connection. Yes, the third thing. Exactly. That it's divine. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard.

The show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is Wagner Mora. There were moments that are like, oh, I really need that money. You know, but I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do that because otherwise I'll be miserable.

After watching the Brazilian film The Secret Agent, I came away with a deeper appreciation for how much fear, resolve, and longing can be communicated through a person's eyes. Wagner Mora subtly conveys all those emotions. as a man on the run in a military dictatorship. Yes, there are powerful moments of dialogue, but so much of Wagner's talent as a storyteller and an actor comes in what is left unsaid,

how he uses the negative space to make us feel and to make us think. I am so very happy to welcome Wagner Mora to Wildcard. Hi. That was a thoughtful introduction. Thank you. Well, I'm very pleased to have you here, And many congratulations are in order because the film itself has been nominated for several Academy Awards. And you yourself have been nominated the first Brazilian male actor to be nominated in the best acting category for this film.

Congrats. Thank you. Thank you so much. We're very happy. Well, we'll talk more about the movie in a few minutes. But we're just going to go. You ready to play this game? Yes, I am.

I'm excited about it. Let's do. Let's try it out. First three cards, Wagner, you pick one, two, or three? Three. That's this one. What did your parents teach you to love? Elderly people.

Elderly people. Yeah. He was, my parents were very serious in, like, that we should always respect people that were older than we were, you know. ended up translating to me, like, for what I do, like, the admiration and respect that I have for actors, especially in Brazil, that opened space for younger actors, you know, like, in terms of, like, work opportunities. And it was, it was hard to be an actor back in the, in the beginning of the 20th century. Right. You know, so every time I meet up an actor that,

like, it's like in their 85, 90s right now, you know, there was a reverend. And I know, there was a reverence that I have towards these people. That it's, yeah, that's very important to me. Who was the elder person who they made sure you had connection with? Like, can you think of a person who... Oh, yeah, there was this director that I worked with who was such an important person, theater director. Such an important person in my life as an artist.

Unfortunately, he passed two, three years ago. His name is Adherbao Freire Filio. Theater directors, it's interesting because they have this amazing careers, but their work as it's theater, it disappears. If you go to the theater and you see a play, it's going to be in your memory and in your heart, and it's going to be there forever. But it's not record.

It's not like movies that you can, oh, let's go and see the work of that director. Theater directors, like their art, just burns. Ephemeral. It's ephemers. He directed, when I played Hamlet in Brazil, he was the director,

and there was such a pivotal moment of my life. We've worked together many other times, but this one is very special. Like, he gave me so many. And I was hanging out with him, like, exactly, like to hang out with someone that you would go out, like just the two of us. He was like I was 30, in my 30s back then,

and he was, I guess, 79, 80. And we would go to bars, you know, and, you know, and talk and spend the night together, drinking and talking life. And I really, really miss him. Yeah. I love that. Okay. Three new cards.

Three different cards. You pick again, one, two or three. Two. Two. Similar but different. What's something someone told you that, changed your trajectory? I don't think, I don't think it's something that someone told me, but I think that in the

last three or four years, I feel like the universe was sort of telling me to, just to relax, you know, because we are all ambitious and we all have plans and we all have goals and we all have. But at some point, I think I wish I had more time to, to, you know, yeah, to have joy. And did you feel joy? Do you feel joy in my daily life? You know, and I think that at some point, like, and to have joy, especially in this thing that I do, it's so important because sometimes we forget about the joy of it all, you know, the joy of doing what we do. And it became like a pragmatic thing.

Yeah. You know, I was watching a couple of years ago, a couple of years ago, the documentary about the Beatles, you know, the one that Peter Jackson directed. And they were like, oh, they were fighting, and there was like horrible. Everything was not going well.

And one of them was about to leave the band. I think it was George. But when they played, then when they played together, they had so much fun and joy. And they were messing around with the music and they were playing like, and they were looking at each other and they were laughing and they were having fun. I've been telling myself, like, just, yeah, have fun. Enjoy, you know, enjoy each moment of your life.

Like it's here. I'm here with you and let's enjoy this moment. It's hard, though. I imagine in your creative work, too, you get momentum, right? Like, and people talk about, oh, you're, you're, you've caught, you've caught fire now. And so now more projects are going to come and more directors come to you. And the scripts get better and better and your choices get better.

And if you don't keep moving, right, like a shark in the water, like you got to keep moving and taking the opportunities. Or else, oh, no, Wagner, they're going to go away. You're going to, you know, you've got to act now. Do you feel those kinds of pressures? Is it hard to say no? I felt that before. It's interesting because I have felt that before with other things. things because I've been doing this since I was 15.

For example, when I did narcos, it was a thing and everybody was like, you should do it. And I was like, but I always, I have to say, always rejected that kind of thought. You know, I always kind of did the opposite of what was expected. Like, for now, for example, I'm going to go to Brazil. I'm going to do a very independent film there. After that, I'm going to tour with my play in Europe. I'm going to be doing theater.

You know, and then in the end of the year, I'm going to direct my film, also a very small independent film. That doesn't mean that I'm not aware of, like, the new possibilities are coming because of the moment. But they're not going to go away. And you're going to center joy in all these projects, right? And you're not going to work too hard. And I'm going to privilege joy. Yeah. And, yeah, and to do what I want to do, what I feel, not what.

what expected for one to do, but what you want to do. What's, yeah. Last one in this memory's round. One, two, or three. One. One. What's an early experience of appreciating beauty? I remember when I was many, I was coming back.

I lived in this very small town in Brazil. And I was, I think I was already like 15, and I woke up at night, and I don't know why, it was like 3 in the morning. I skipped through the window of my bedroom, and I don't know exactly why I started to walk around the city by myself. I was walking, walking, until the day it started to, the sun started to shine. And I was by myself. I was alone.

and I could see the sun, I could see the light changing over me and I could see to look at the sky, there were some stars still there, but I could see like the curve, somehow the curve of the earth, I don't know how, I could see like the curve of the atmosphere. I don't know what it was. You know, it was a... It sounds like a vaguely- mystical experience.

Mystical experience, and I was by myself. Yeah. I felt a very strong feeling of happiness and, and connection to the universe and to, like. Which is a beautiful thing to happen, especially at a young age. And I was a kid, exactly. Yeah. And I also felt that, oh, there was so much ahead of me. Yeah.

You know, like, I'm going to, you know, I'm still like, I don't know, I think I was, I don't know, 13, 14. I don't know, I don't remember. There's so much ahead of me. Yeah. You know, I'm going to live so, for so long, you know. It's also true that it passes real fast. It passes so fast. That feels like not as long time ago.

Sometimes I still feel that. I still have 13 years old. Hey, everybody. Ever since we launched Wildcard, there is one thing that you have asked about more than anything else. Where can I get the Wildcard deck? We hear it constantly.

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Let's talk more about the movie. Yeah. The Secret Agent, I understand, this was a project that actually was a long. long time coming, right? A collaboration with the director. The two of you have been working on this script for a while. Can you tell me kind of the genesis of it? Yeah, the genesis.

I mean, I met him a long time ago. I met him in Cannes. He used to be a critic back then, but we hit it off in a festival because we are also from the same region. He's from his Sifim from Salvador, both cities from the northeast of Brazil. I'm going to misstate his name, so I was hoping you would just do it, but I'll try. Claibre Mendonca, Philho? Mendonza.

Mendoza. Can you just say it from me? Yeah. Claber Mendonza, Filo. Yeah. But you did a pretty good job. And I met him and I was like, dude, I want to work with you. But then he invited me to be in his film Baccoral that he directed in 2018, but it couldn't be in it because I was directing my own film.

And so we created this, and we were both always very, so we, Claibir and I, we are very, very different people, but we see Brazil and we see the role of an artist in a very similar way. We think that art and politics, they are not separated. But this film is openly a political film because it comes from our shared perplexity over what was going on in Brazil from 2018 to 2022 when Brazil elected democratically a fascist president. And we were both very... Bolsonaro, and we were both very vocal against him, and we both suffered the consequences of that.

So I think that the security agent came from that, from like how can we... We wanted to work together, we wanted to do something together, and so it's like the film about this man that is sticking with the values that he has when everything around him is saying the opposite. It felt something that related a lot of, but resonated a lot with clubber and I.

Right. Your main character is living and running from this military dictatorship that has, you know, as military dictatorships do, they've got a war on truth, they're issuing propaganda left and right, there's corruption rampant, and your character's just trying to live a life and survive, really. But it's interesting, you mentioned the 2019 movie that you did and that was very critical of the Brazilian government at the time. That could, That could have cowed you. That could have, you could have absorbed all that criticism coming from pretty high up in Brazil and separated yourself and said, I'm not, I've learned my lesson. I'm not going to touch that third rail anymore.

And instead you decided to lean in. Was that, was it an easy decision for you? Or was there a moment of pause? Like, maybe this isn't how I'm going to make the most impact. No, it was, it was a very, it was a very. organic decision for me because I was making a film about the film is called Marigella and it's about the leader of the armed resistance in Brazil against the detectorship and that film that I directed and was censored by Bolsonaro and all that and I couldn't

I mean I how could I be doing a film about a freedom fighter you know and to and not to fight for that film to to to be released and to have a proper release in the country. So I engaged in that fight with lots of energy. It was hard, you know, because, you know, this polarization is just really hard. It's really hard. It's really difficult because it's people are living in different mental states.

We are, that's what's separating us. It's like we are not living in the same world. We are not seeing reality in the same way. Right. The hardest thing for me when I engaged in that fight against the government in Brazil to have my film release and against the government itself and against everything that that government represented, it was hard, but the hardest thing was because I felt that we were not talking

the same language that we are not talking about the same reality. Which is, it comes through in the way that you play this character, Armando, because you see him struggling to make sense of something that's not sensible. The facts on the ground don't matter anymore. As a viewer, you sort of see for him how words fail ultimately. It's not going to make a difference. and then he's just trying to survive. Yeah.

I think this is also a film about infamy, you know, because it's how he was treated and how, and we shouldn't give any spoilers here, but the way he's treated in the end of the film and the way it's displayed who he was, you know, in the newspaper, so unfair and so, and that happens so often, you know, like right now when they are, when the government and people are trying to discredit the man I forgot his name, that got killed,

the nurse. Alex Prattie. Yeah, so they start all this campaign against him, like saying, people are inventing lies about his life, and it's so cruel because you kill him twice. You killed him, and then you try to kill his reputation. You know, it tried to kill his memory, you know. And this is a grim parallel that I hadn't thought of with your film. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, but that's how fascism works, unfortunately. You know, and it's, and sometimes I get scared, scared because as a Brazilian, I can see those signals very clearly because I've been, I come from a country with that we had, unfortunately, not only one, but some detectives. You know, some could, a history of coupitas and an authoritarian regime. So it's crazy how the signals are the same throughout history. You know. I want to just acknowledge, you mentioned your role as Pablo Escobar in Narcos earlier.

And, I mean, this was a huge show. This was a huge role for you. And I read several times in preparing for this conversation that you came out of that experience and you were very grateful for it. But you were not going to take roles that reinforced Latin stereotypes. And I imagine you had a lot of other similar offers because people are constrained by their imagination. People are not imaginative. And they were like, oh, this is what Wagner does. He does this so well.

That works. Let's just keep casting him there. That's how it works everywhere, right? Yeah. And so it must feel all the sweeter to have achieved this Oscar nomination not having done that. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the main thing for me is like I really, I like to think that I was always very coherent

with what I thought was artistically. That was all that always mattered to me. Even when I... There were moments that were like, oh, I really need that money, man. Right. You know, but I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do that because otherwise I'll be miserable.

You know, I'll feel... So it feels good to look back and go like, I thank God it did. band. Yeah, it feels, it feels coherent. It feels good. Yeah. Good. Well, congratulations again. Let's play more game. Round two. Insights. Three new cards. One, two or three. And they're blue now, too. They're blue. Okay. What's a sound that instantly puts you at ease? Yesterday. I'm not very used to cats, right? Like, I'm a dog guy and I love, we have a cat and a dog. And the dog is like already eight. And I love him.

It's like a most beautiful little thing. And the cat showed up like a year ago because of my kid. And I'm not, cats don't care about, you know, the whole thing about cats. You don't really care about you. And they stay, you know, you call them, they don't come. But yesterday. I was upset about something. I was sad about something that had happened. And I laid on my sofa in my living room. And the cat came and he literally lay down over my chest like that. like that

and started to do that purring thing and that was so therapeutic I felt like a connection between us and I was so grateful for him I think he was like really like like hey

let me share some some energy with you I don't know what he was and I was looking at him and in my mind I closed my eyes and was like, thank you, man. Thanks for doing this. And he was purring. And that little noise is so nice to hear.

Yeah. You know, and he stayed there for a moment, like, for a good, like, 20 minutes. And then he stood up and went away. And it was like, that's, it created a connection to that cat that I didn't have before. But every time I see him now, I was like, hey, man, thanks for that. We had that. Also, as you were describing it, I was feeling not just the sound and how comforting that is,

but the weight and the reverberation of the sound through the cat's body on you. What a, he was just, he was giving you. Our bodies together and it was warm, you know, and it was a cold day. It was very warm. My chest was warm. And he sensed it. And we were exchanging energies, I thought. For sure.

Because I realized that there was something happening. He was like, I'm going to send him good energy, too. So it was like a very interesting and a cool moment. So now you're cool with him, the cat. Oh, we're great. We're great now. I see him now and go like, hey, what's up, man. You're cool.

Go just do your thing. What's his name, by the way? Evie, because we thought he was a girl when we got him. So he has this girl's name. Gender's a construct. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, I'm really glad to give Evie his moment.

Okay, three more cards, one, two, or three. Three. What's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing? You know, when I like to write scripts, right? like I work on the scripts that I direct, and always, always, when I'm working on a character, a character really wants something. Like a character always have a drive and wants something.

And always, like always, what he wants, it's not what he needs. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Usually a character wants something, but he needs something else. And the beautiful part of any character as a curve

is when the character realizes that. Like, oh, that's not what I need. That's what I wanted. And I don't know, I think I've been around this thing for so many years too to understand that, like, sometimes when you relax, that's when things happen to you. Because you go through so many, as an actor, it's like so, so full of ups and downs,

your career, you know, like you're, I don't even like to say career because it's my life. Can you give me an example of a moment in your life when you felt that more acutely? Oh, right, during the pandemic, because I just moved to the West

for many reasons, but one of them was like to, because my agent was like, you should be here, you should be more in Los Angeles. In Los Angeles, yeah. In Los Angeles, just moved to L.A., and then the pandemic hit.

And then I was not really doing, what I was supposed to be doing here, which is like to be, you know, connecting and working. But then the pandemic gave me a relationship with my family that I had never had before. Really?

You know, I spent time with them in a way that I had never done it before. I could look at each one of them separately and spend time with them separately and really listen to them because we had all the time in the world. Yeah. And that was very special for me. Yeah.

How old were your kids at the time? At the time. Like were you trying to do virtual school at the same time? Yeah. Oh, my God. Good for you for finding moments of joy through that. Oh, my God. That was hard.

That was so hard. Poor kids. One of my kids were doing the things in his pajamas and his, you know, in the blankets. like this and it's like, what is it? Like, what are you doing? And this is school. Oh, I know. And it's like, no, it's not. And we would try to teach. Like, my kids don't want to hear, they don't want to hear anything from me. They don't want to take any instruction from me. It became painfully clear. That was not like a good dynamic during COVID. But if we could separate school and like really lean into what makes our family beautiful, then it was a

lovely experience. But I wouldn't go back to COVID learning at all. How many kids you have? I have two boys. They are 11 and 13. Oh, it's about the age of my mind. I have three boys. They are 19, 15, and 13. Ah, yeah. We're in it.

That's a lot of dude energy in your house. I mean, I, yeah. That's a whole other conversation. It's a beautiful thing. Boys are a beautiful thing. Okay. Yeah. One, two, or three.

One. What have you found surprising about getting? getting older? That my body is not the same. You know, I do Jiu-Jitsu, for example. Ah, do you? Yeah, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is my sport and the thing that I love, and I've been doing this since I was in my 20s.

And it kind of sucks when I go and I have to train with a 20-year-old kid, and I see that kid has more strength, it's faster, it's more full of energy than I am. And then I have to come up with, okay, I have to come up with a plan to roll with that kid as a 50-year-old man. You know, how can I, you know, make him tired? How can I just like— How can I, like, do some Jedi mind tricks? Because I'm not— Wait for him to, yeah, to make him mistake.

Right. Because I can't really match the energy. the energy that I kid like that has. And that is a little like, oh, that sucks. But also, I feel that I'm a better person now, a better human being now than I was, not that I was a bad kid, but when I was 20, and I don't know how my, I was all over the place.

But like, I think that's, it's good to. I like myself. Say more about that. I like myself a lot. You know, I'm at the, I'm at a, and I'm not ashamed of saying that. Like I don't, I feel like who I am. I'm happy with who, with the kind of person that I, that I, that I, that I am and the, and the, and the things that I have to work on it. I'm aware of it and I'm, you know, and I'm, and I'm working on it.

Like I want to, you know, but I feel more, yeah, secure and calm and aware of what are the things that really matter, you know, in life, I guess. Approaching 50, you'll do that to you. I guess so, right? Like, it's like what's important, what's not that important. Yeah. What's important, but it's okay if it doesn't happen, you know. Beliefs. First question.

One, two, or three. One. Have you ever experienced some divine power? Yeah, I think so. You know, I'm not, I, listen, I don't believe. God, I'm not like, but I grew up like in many, my grandmother was very Catholic and Brazil was a very Catholic country. My parents were spiritualists and all that they had like relationship that, you know, they were

like having these experiences with, you know, with deceased people through like mediums and all that. So I grew up seeing this thing in Brazil. From where I come from, there was this Afro-Brazilian religion that's really powerful, a beautiful, culturally extraordinary, called Kandomblis, which I love, and I see it as a cultural beauty. And also I can see the energies going on.

And Hamlet has this phrase that he says, like, there are more things beyond heaven and earth than we could, you know, that our brains can't, something like that cannot, that our philosophy could, can't even dream, something like that. And I truly believe in these things. And, yes, I've, I've experienced things, you know, like, the things that...

Can you tell me? Something that felt close? I was just doing theater in my hometown, Salvador, about, yeah, three, four months ago. And it's not all the time, but there was one moment. There's some moments on the stage. stage that there is a connection. Something happens. You know, something happens there.

And many artists will say like the same. It's not always, but there is a moment that's like, oh, it's like you, you know, there's something going on that's not from these. Between you, the audience, the third thing that becomes your connection. Yes, the third thing. Exactly. It's me. It's an actor, the audience, and this third thing, whatever that is.

That it's divine. Yeah. There are things going on for sure. There are things going on. There are things going on. Everywhere. All the dimensions. I don't know what it is.

Three more. One, two, or three. Three. Yeah. Is there anything in your life that feels like praying? Well, I think theater is, you know, I think very, I see very, many similarities between the liturgy of theater and of some religion, especially. especially Catholic religion, I think that when a play starts,

you're commanding some sort of ritual there. Because you're saying those same words every day, but differently. You know, like as a priest would go up there and say parts of the Bible. There was a liturgy where he, you know, I don't know, like he holds the cross and he takes the watch.

and he gives the, I think that this, when you repeat, the sacrament, when you repeat, when you repeat a gesture and you repeat an action for many, many, many, many, many times, those actions, they gain meaning and they gain like, and they, and the ritual of it creates the ritual, the ritual. It can change. It can change throughout time and your perception of the, of the ritual can change. change, but it's meaningful. And you find different meanings of it, but it's... When you're practicing that, when you were doing theater and you were repeating lines night after night in this way that becomes like a meditation, like a prayer, does it help or hinder your effort at acting? Like, does it get harder because the words take on this different meaning or does it? does it get easier?

It gets amazing. It gets like, it's like, because it's interesting because you feel like, oh, it's the same words and it's going to be the same thing. No, every day is different because every day you discover something different to those things. Every day you're like,

and your colleague is going to throw something different to you and then it's, that's the beauty of acting. For me, that's the most valuable thing about acting. You know, if acting was something that was stiff and you were supposed to be there and say these things and go back home, I wouldn't like to be doing that. That's why it's hard for me when I work with directors or actors that stick with a, they think that a scene should be, this is how the scene should be.

And they want the scene to be exactly how they thought. And they lose the opportunity of like going to so many different directions. You know, each single take can be different. You know, it's depending on, you know, sometimes, yeah, depending on how the other actor looked at you or set something or you yourself discovered something else when you're saying that, those words. It's the most beautiful and exciting thing about acting, I think. It's like how, yeah, how electric it can be when you're like, it's not the same. It's the same words, but it's different. And if you're not opening yourself up to that possibility, then the spiritual component of it is lost on you and the audience.

And then that gift is never given. That gift is never delivered. That's exactly right. So that exactly, that spiritual component goes away because then it's just like, you know. Yeah. Last one, Wagner. One, two, or three? Three.

Three. How often do you think about death? Not often. I feel that I'm going to die really, really old. I think I'm going to get, I want to be at least 100. Yeah. You know, so I think it's a nice number. Yes.

Round? Yeah. Round. Three digits. I'm into it. Yeah. And I don't want to romanticize that moment, but therefore I don't think about that often. But I want to, of course, I want to die.

you know, feeling good about the life that I, that I, that I, that I, that I lived. And we have to understand, like, this is the only certainty that we all have. Right. Is that we all are going to die. And somehow we should be grateful for that, you know, because that, that's what gives meaning to our lives. Exactly. You know, if we lived forever, that would kind of suck, you know, because you wouldn't, like, you wouldn't, how, How are you going to live your life in full if you know that, you know, the word.

We need these limitations. We need these limitations. We do for all kinds of reasons. Much has been written on this. Yeah, you have to have some kind of finite nature to the thing. Finite. To create meaning. But I don't know if I want to go to 100.

It's interesting. I don't know. It depends on what that 100 looks like. It depends. Looks like, for sure. I don't want to be like, listen, I don't want to get sick. I was just talking to some friends yesterday. have a friend that he discovered early symptoms of Alzheimer.

And he went to the Netherlands and he did the assistant death thing. Like, you know what I'm talking about? Physician assisted death or the physician assisted death thing. And I respected that so much. And his husband was totally on board with that and he went there and he did it. It was like, I don't want to live my life, not remembering anything, not knowing who my people are. I mean, of course, it's like, of course, I want to know how, but when I mentalize and when I foresee that 100-year-old, I see myself in a good shape for a hundred-year-old guy. I mean, you got the jujitsu, but you got to keep working.

I want to keep, I can't, I don't want to stop working. I want to work until the last, my last days. Yeah. We end our show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. In the time machine, you go back and revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment that you'd like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose?

That's when my first kid was born. My first son, bam. because that was that was another mystical experience that was a moment that was a divine that was one of the things that I like and it was it was difficult because it was

difficult I was traveling I had to I took an airplane and my wife was in the you know she was like you have to come and it was very stressful and I got there and you know it and she was in it was very and when he I finally, when I finally was able to grab him

and to see him and to see that he was okay and to happen like in my chest like that, it was, I don't know. I don't know, that was, how can you describe that feeling? I don't know, it's like it was very, I would linger, I would do everything to do just to feel that I'm. To feel that again, I don't think I'll ever have other kids. And you see your kids growing up, and it's beautiful because they're like, it's, you see each moment of their lives, but sometimes, like, oh, I miss those little things.

Yeah. And also, if you give me another one, I would go back to the last conversation I had with my dad, you know, before he passed. It's interesting, right? like death and birth, you know, the birth of a son and the death of a parent. Those were the moments that I would be going back to. Wagner Mura, you can see him in the Oscar-nominated film The Secret Agent. It was such a pleasure, thank you. It was such a pleasure. Thank you very much.

If you like this episode, check out my conversation with Padma Lachmi. Like Wagner Podma talked about the joy that can come with aging and how she feels more confident in middle age than she has at any other point in her life. You can watch that conversation with Podma Lakshmi, along with this one with Wagner Mora or any of our recent conversations on our YouTube channel. Just search for at NPR Wildcard. Today's episode was produced by Annabelle Edwards and Summer to Mod. It was edited by Dave Blanchard, mastered by Becky Brown.

Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sain. Wenny, and our theme music is by Romteen Arablewee. Reach out to us, why don't you? At wildcard at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.