Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Wanda Sykes is looking for higher stakes

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

Wanda Sykes life has been defined by one act of courage after another. Leaving a safe career for comedy, getting divorced, coming out and surviving breast cancer all took a lot of guts. She shares with Rachel what she learned from each chapter of her life, and how it has made her stand-up stronger. Wanda is on the road for her new tour - it's called Please and Thank You. To listen sponsor-free and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Before we start the show, you may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order that's trying to block all federal funding to NPR. Millions of people. People like you depend on the NPR network as a vital source of news and entertainment and information and connection. We are proud to be here for you. And now more than ever, we need you to be here for us. It is time to join the movement to defend public media. Visit donate.npr.org.

And if you already support us through NPR Plus or another means, thank you so much. Your support means everything to us. Now more than ever, you help make NPR shows freely available to everyone. We are proud to do this work for you and with you. Just a heads up, like most of my interviews with comedians, today's episode has a little bit of swearing. When did it feel like the career you wanted was in reach? Hmm. I'm going to say after the I'm going to be me special.

The comedy was stronger. I was very open, talking about, you know, being out. And it was very liberating for me. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question

and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is comedian Wanda Sykes. There's so much going on that I know people, yeah, they need to hear what I have to say. I mean, I know that sounds like very self-absorbed, but you know what? Yeah, they do. I think comedians are the first to admit that they're just built differently than the rest of us.

Because standing on a stage in front of hundreds of strangers and bearing their souls through jokes requires a ton of courage. But then when you look at Wanda Sykes' career, you realize that the courage doesn't just show up on stage. She had to conjure it at every step along the way. Quitting her stable government job to pursue comedy took guts. So to getting divorced and coming out publicly,

surviving breast cancer, all of it takes guts. And when I watch her on stage, taking up space, saying all the taboos out loud and having the best time doing, it. I think she makes everyone else watching feel a little bolder themselves. Wanda is getting on stage again for her new tour. It's called Please and Thank You. It is my great pleasure to welcome Wanda Sykes to Wildcard. Hi, lady. Well, hello, Rachel. Thank you. That was a, that was probably one of the best intros ever. I meant it. I meant it. So this is like a card game, conversation game. Is this something, I mean, you're married, you and your wife have two kids who I think

are teenagers now? Yes, 16. Are you a gaming family? Or they over you by this point? I love playing games and card games, board games. My wife is not into it. Only if we're playing a game in French. If we're playing a game in French, like a card game, then, oh, then she wants to play. We should say she is French. That's her first language. Yeah, well, that's one thing. She's not just trying to, like, mess with you. Yeah. Okay. This is not going to be that hard.

I'm like sitting here trying to figure out how to say that in French, but I can't remember because my high school French was not that awesome. Je ne'ne pas du, I think. Je ne'ne pas dure. Yeah, je ne' not dur. Right. Dure. I'm not hard.

I'm not hard. It's not hard. It's not hard. It's not dure. It's facile. It's facile. It's facile. It's facile.

It's easy. Okay. Okay. Let's do it. Let's do it. First three. Memory round. Skip!

You're feeling punchy. You can't skip. All right, all right. Okay, one, two or three. Two. What activity gave you a sense of freedom as a kid? Hmm. What activity?

When we first moved to Maryland, our, it was, you know, housing development, and it wasn't quite finished. And we would just go off and, like, take our, get on our bikes and ride through the areas that were still under construction. And just roam through the homes. And we're kind of like, play hide and seek a little bit. And I just remember, like, you know, have my bike and I'm sitting in this house that's, you know, under construction and no one else is in there. And it just felt like your own, you know, like your own place. And your parents had no idea, you know, where you were.

And a little dangerous, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly, a little dangerous. And, you know, there was a few, you know, every now and then a construction crew would come through. And you're like, oh, I got to get out of there. So, but yeah, that was, that was, man, I was living on it. edge. That was freedom. How old do you think? How old were you? I was going into the third grade. So what? That's eight, right? Eight or nine? Yeah. It's funny how when I, just thinking about that, the idea of scooting right up against what's safe does have a relationship with freedom. It's like you've sort of got to

push beyond what feels like the natural contours of the rules of what's, of what's going to keep you on the straight and narrow. You get a little further out and then you're like, oh, I like this. Yes. This feels like something I'm maybe not supposed to do. And that feels good. Yeah. But then again, I remember being terrified because if my brother didn't, if they couldn't find me, you know, because the whole game, the thing was the high and sick.

So there's a point where you're like, oh, I am so willing. They can't find me. Then it's like, wait a minute. Are they still out there? Right. Are they still looking for me? Are they still looking for me? And then you kind of like give up and go out like, here I am, here I am.

Oh, yeah, you don't want to be the last one seeing. You still want people to care. Yeah. Okay. Three more. One, two, or three. Still in memories. Let's go one.

What's an ordinary place that feels extraordinary because of what happened there? An ordinary place. Yeah. Uh, you know what? Bowling alleys seem to do that for me. Oh, I love that answer. Tell me why. Yeah. Bowling, not any one particular bowling alley, but bowling alleys, I remember from a kid, because my father, he had a side hustle, and he would clean the lanes at the bowling alley, on the military base. So we would go with him Saturday mornings

While he was cleaning the lanes We would get to bowl So yeah I fell in love with bowling then And then as I got older Bowling with friends was always a good time They would just drop us off at the bowling alley And we would just you know blow a Saturday

And then when You know As college or adult age, I should say. Boy, drinking and bowling is a lot of fun. That's so much fun. And I still enjoy doing it. I've had birthday parties, bowling alleys.

I actually think my 60th was a bowling party. I love it. Yeah, in Philly. It was great. There's something lovely about the conversations that can happen in bowling alleys, too. It's like one of those things. That too, yeah. It's like because there's not the pressure, it's not.

Like, let's go for a walk and talk or like, let's go sit down and have coffee and like discuss this thing. You're just doing this thing. It's super fun. It can be as competitive as you want. Right. And while you're doing it, all of a sudden something can happen. And there's like a little conversational alchemy and you're bowling and all of a sudden you're in like a deep interesting place with a person. Right.

Absolutely. Yeah. Then there's this, like you said, the competitive, you know, that kicks in. And it's like, oh, wait a minute, you're trying to win. You're lowering me into this conversation. Right, right, right, right. And now you're trying to win. Ah.

That's what we're doing. Wait a minute. Let me focus. Let me, now I've got to get my focus back. Right. We're going to push back from the game because I want to talk about your tour. It is. and you decide that you're going to pack your bags and live this tour life for a bit.

Did you, you just get the hankering every few years, or how does it come to you? Someone tells you, Wanda, you're due. You need to get out there. What's the impetus? I still love it. Yeah. I still love it. And, you know, when I'm filming and I come off of a project, I definitely want to just hit the road because that's where I feel connected and funny again.

And also I get nervous that if I don't do it for a while, am I, you know, am I going to lose it? Yeah. And also it's like there's so much going on, especially in our country right now, that I know people

want it. They, yeah, they need to hear what I have to what I have to say or they're wondering, I just wanted to. I mean, I know that sounds like very self-absorbed and, you know, like, oh, really want to people really need to hear what you have to say. But you know what? Yeah, they do. And I think they do. Well, you spend a long time to, but I get that. You've spent a long time. You've built an audience over decades. Yeah. It's my audience, basically. I want to stay connected with them. I've worked hard at, you know, developing this audience and they stick with me.

And they've been there for five specials or whatever. So I love getting out on the road and talking to the people. You said earlier that you need to get on tour to remind yourself that you're funny. Does it start to – I mean, I saw you walked in. You were talking to our crew. You made a job. You're a funny lady. You can't help yourself.

You're just funny. But it doesn't feel like that to you in your regular day to day? or you need the adrenaline and the ecstatic feeling that comes from being on stage being funny? Yeah, I think I need higher stakes, you know. And so to say, hey, I'm on tour and what are you doing Saturday night? How about pay for this ticket and throw some pants on and, you know. That's all I need. Just pants.

And come, come see me. Yeah. So I have to show up and make sure you walk out of there going, man, glad I did this. This was fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of like hide-and-seek when you're a little. Like, it's just a little riskier.

You need something with the, yeah, higher stakes. Yeah. Something a little unsafe. And the live audience is a little unsafe. Right. Yeah. Right. Um, comedians draw from friends and family in their personal life. That's not a new thing. But, um, you do too. And, but your kids are now, you know, like we said, they're teenagers. Yeah. Are they cool with it? Or do you now, do you need their buy-in for certain jokes? Or do you stay away from things that are going to implicate them in some way?

Um, I am cautious when it comes. to them, you know, because it is their life. And they should, and they really shouldn't be fodder for, for my material, you know. But they are, they are a part of my life. They're a huge part of my life. And they take up a lot of my time. So I feel like some things I can talk about because, you know, I didn't have, time to go experience something else because I'm busy running you around.

That's right. It's your fault. It's your fault. I have time to read a paper. There's no other creative will to drop from. I don't have time to screen or scroll or whatever we do now with how we read. I have time to do that. I was busy with doing some of your crap. So I want to talk about it. But I am, like I said, very particular as far as like what I, you know. what I say about them. Because they are aware and they have asked, you know, look, we don't get to watch your specials, but some of our friends, their parents let them watch. So can you, like, not talk about us?

So. They can't watch them, huh? Your specials? Well, they can now. Now I think they just choose not to. It must be said. Your wife must be a very, very good story. sport. Oh, she loves it.

She's like, uh, after every shall I come home? Did you talk about me tonight? How did I do? You know. We're moving to round two. All right. Insights, this round is called. Okay. One, two, or three.

Three. Three. Hmm. When did it feel like the career you wanted was in reach? Hmm. I'm going to say after the I'm going to be me. special. So that was 2009. Okay.

Yeah, because the kids were born. And why did that feel pivotal? What changed after that? It was like elevated. You know, I felt like I moved up. And the comedy was stronger. I was very open, talking about, you know, being out and been married and kids.

But I also talked about, you know, what was happening in politics and all. So to me, it just felt it was very liberating for me to, you know, to just be that open on stage. Be yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So that, you'd been doing this a long time by that point. A couple decades. Yeah.

So it's a couple decades of not really feeling like you'd made it. Right. Well, not, I shouldn't say like I, you know, had made it because I think I, yeah, I had TV shows. It's a different question. You're right. It's a different question. Yeah, I had a TV show. I had stuff.

Yeah. Right. This was the career I wanted. Yeah. So you had been super successful in this one way. By any other measure, other people, I'm sure we're looking at that like, Wanda's got a round show, just the specials and blah. And you're on all these, you know, you're on all the popular, funny shows at the time and guest appearances. But it is different to get what you want.

Right. The career that you wanted sounds like was to be able to be your whole self on stage. And that wasn't, and talk about what you wanted to, no matter who was going to piss off. And there's an element of vulnerability in that too. And you've got to be at a certain point, a certain age, to know. not give a damn what people think. Is that part of it too? That totally it.

Yeah, that's it. And that, hey, if there's not another TV show, you know, your own show, sitcom or whatever that comes along, I'm okay with it because I like where I am right now on this stage. And if I just continue to tour and do this, I'm fortunate. I'm happy, you know. So it was at that moment at that special way I felt that. And it was after, according to what I've read, you tell me if I'm wrong, you were living your life.

You were living your life as a gay woman. You just didn't feel the need to make some big pronouncement about it. But the year you've identified, 2009 in that special, that was like not that long after you did come out publicly. Right. So was there any part of you that had wished maybe you would kind of rip that band-aid off earlier in terms of like some big public acknowledgement? No, I believe things happen in time when they're supposed to happen. I probably wasn't ready. You know, I probably some, I probably wasn't ready to handle if whatever backlash would, you know, that would have happened.

but when I did it was when I was ready. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that. Three more cards. Okay. One, two, or three.

Let's go with one. One. What's something you think of very differently today than you did 10 years ago? Oh. Hmm. Wow. You can skip it or flip it. Let's skip it.

Let's skip it. Let's skip it. Okay. What do you find most difficult to model for the children in your life? Probably the drinking. Yeah. Wow. I would say drinking.

That's a real one. Yeah. You know, we have a wine at dinner. Well, not my kids. My wife and I will have, you know, wine at dinner. But it's so good. I know. She's French. She probably has a great taste of wine. Yeah, yeah. So it's the, so it's that, you know, the, the conscious choice of, you know, we'll just have water tonight for dinner.

We don't, we don't need to, you know. That's a big deal. I recently stopped drinking in large part because of that. Yeah. Because when you see yourself through your kid's eyes, when they start to be like these sentient beings or like, you know, you know, middle schoolers who are now tracking everything you're doing. Right. You're like, I don't know if this is what I want them to see. Yeah.

But it's hard because you're like, oh, it's just a class or two of wine every night. I know. Or like I have friends over and we're playing games or whatever and drinking and my kids are around. Yeah. I mean, you can hear this. You know, when you're getting a little louder and a little slur. Yeah, you hear that. It's so funny.

You think you're so much more funny. It's so funny. Yeah. So you have to, I got to go, okay. Whoops. Now it's time to pull back. So, yeah. Yeah.

I hear that. I hear that in a very real way. Thank you. And I'm just saying well. Did your parents drink? So they didn't. Okay. They were super religious.

And, um. See, my parents, they did. And I can remember. Yeah. So what did that? as a kid. Really? Yeah.

I mean, they weren't like, you know, alcoholics. Sloshing around. No, I know. Yeah, yeah. But you, you know. You pick up on things. Mm-hmm. As a kid, you, you know, you feel sometimes a little, I don't want to say, like, unsafe, like, or are they going to be okay?

You know, especially, you know, the getting home, you know, like, oh, boy. Yeah. They went out to a party. Are they going to be okay? are they going to come home? You know, it was that type of thing. Yeah. And just that's a part of recognizing that your parents are also just people, right?

They're not these perfect beings, but they're people with vulnerabilities. My mom came home after a party. She never drank. She drank at this party, and she clearly had too many margaritas. And she came into my bed to tuck me in. And it was so weird. I definitely have a core memory of that. She was not tracked.

Her words were slurring, and I was like, What's going on here? So yeah, those little children are watching everything we do. Exactly. But, yeah, again, like I said, it was never a problem. I understand. Totally. I totally understand.

But as a kid, you just, like I said, you clock all of that. You do. Yeah, they're watching. Okay. Three more cards. Last one in this round. One, two, or three. Let's go.

So let's go one. One. How big of a role does fear have in your life? Not a huge role. Not a huge. Fear is not a big deal for me. But the most part, I don't live in fear or think about fear. And what I do, I think about God and I think about, you know, scriptures, you know, tells us.

you know, be anxious for nothing. And so, yeah, I try to live by that. Hmm. Is that always the case for you? Because, I mean, I started this with an intro about conjuring courage to do what you've done at several steps in your life. Well, I think as my faith, you know, get stronger than that, that helps, you know. Like, I really believe that, hey, if something happens, I'll be okay. I'll get through it, you know, and that's through my faith.

Like, if I have to go through something, it's because I need to learn something, or someone needs to see someone go through something to help them. Or, but yeah, I always feel like I'm going to come out okay on the other side of it. It's just something we just got to go through sometimes. But so I don't look at it as, you know, like, ooh, I don't want to do it or fear. Breast cancer. Was that scary? That shit was scary.

Ooh, that scared the shit out of me. No, breast cancer. I mean, it is scary. It is. It is. It is. It is. And at the time, you know, I, so many friends who had either gone through it or were going through it.

And some didn't make it, you know. Yeah. So, again. I just, you know, just clasp on to that, wow, I was so fortunate that it was detected at such an early stage and that I was going to be okay. We're moving to the beliefs round, which I feel like we've already sort of touched on, so I'm anxious for your answers to these questions. One, two, or three? Three. What's the most religious thing about you?

The most religious thing about me? I tithe. You know, I try to. You tithe. I try. Yeah. So does everyone know what that means? To tithe, to give a certain percentage of what you make to a church or to mission work.

Just give, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And our church, the whole church does a fast. I participated in that. We just did a 40-day fast. So when you're picking a church, what are you going for? I go, I look at their work that they're doing.

Uh-huh. Okay. Are they giving back to the community? Are they nurturing? Is the message in line of what? you know, the teachings of Jesus and what's in the Bible and are they, it has to be open. They have to, you know, pretty much, you know, what God said, love everybody and you're, you know, who's your neighbor? We're all, you know, everybody's your neighbor.

And, yeah, and of course, it has to, they, they, I have to feel welcome. I have to feel safe there. And I do. Have you ever doubted God? Doubted God. I would say I've been, sometimes like distance felt distance. And like, I guess the doubt is like, wait a minute, why is this happening? I don't understand this.

Are you really going to let us go through this? Is this, what is the plan? man, you know. What is the lesson here? Yeah, it's like, it's like, oh, boy, I can't wait to see how you get out of this one. You know, it's more that. It's more that like, oh, boy, you are in a pickle right now, God. What's you going to do about this?

Yeah. How are you going to turn this one around, you know? And does he most of the time in your experience? Most of the time, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. But yeah, yeah, it, I love it. I love having that belief and just to be able to have those type of conversations and, you know, like. And you're convinced there's someone on the other end listening.

Oh, God, yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, I can feel it sometimes. Like I told you, my parents were really religious. I was raised with the church and have kind of held it lightly. And then when I had kids, I was like, okay, well, now I got to make a choice. Am I or not?

Like, do I give them the religious foundation that I was brought up with? And then it's up to them to do with it what they will. They can reject it. They can keep it, whatever. Or do I not do that because that's not where I'm at anymore because I found myself sort of falling away from that belief system. And we ended up in the second. in the second option. And so I feel, I still feel a lot of ambivalence over it. Yeah. See, that's the thing. I, like, my regret is that I didn't do that for my kids.

And I feel like I kind of like shortchanged them because, you know, my parents gave that to me. And I know how much I rely on it. And so, I mean, I talked to them about God. And, but, you know, I didn't raise them in the church. Right. It sounds like I. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I, I, like we, we, we say grace before dinner, you know, and I do a little, you know, a little extra in there. Slip some stuff in on them during the grace, you know.

I know they got an exam. I asked, you know, God help them out with that and all stuff. And focus. So I slip stuff in. but yeah so I you know we'll we'll see yeah I do I do feel bad that I didn't give them that I even I still talk to God about that

what am I going to do here yeah yeah well they they will carve their own way right they will give their own way right and things that you think aren't seeping in just just like with the drinking and the drinking is the negative stuff right on the positive stuff they've you have modeled that. You have modeled what it means

to be a person of faith and that is navigated, it has helped you navigate how you walk through the world. Right. They will see that too. Okay. Next three. That was a long one. Okay, three more. One, two, or three? Two.

Two. When do you feel connected to the people you've lost? Ooh. When do I feel connected to people I've lost? It was weird My grandmother, my mother's mother It was out of the blue I was just

Actually talking with my friend Liz And I think we had just We just got back from a wedding And I was sitting at a bar We were having a glass of wine And out of nowhere I just got this sense Of

And it was a like, I was like, what is happening? And I just start sobbing. And I looked at Liz and Liz's like, what is happening? I was like, my grandmother loves me. And she's like, what? And I'm like, I just, I just felt her. It was weird. It was, it was, it was like she just, you know, needed to let me know that. Like, hey. Because I always wondered, like, what I'm doing now and, and a whole family thing, like how she would feel and I just, it was just answered. But I wasn't, you know, out of the blue, out of the blue. It's always going back to that moment.

How long ago after she died did that happen? Oh, we're talking, geez, maybe 30 years, 25, 30 years, yeah. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. I was like, that's a long trip. Took you that long to get here, grandma. I couldn't give you an express pass or something. But that little, you know.

But no, it was the best. Maybe it came when you needed it. Yeah, it came when you needed it. I think so. Probably. Probably. And then there's places, Fire Island, Cherry Grove,

like my good friend, like Lynn Lewis lost her of breast cancer. And so whenever we're out, we're out there, there's a, you know, we're sitting on the beach. There's always something, you know, if it's a song or a breeze or something. Just that place is just really just something magical about it. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. You get to pick one moment that you would go back to. It is not a moment you would change anything about.

It can be any time in your life. It is just a moment you would like to sit in and linger in a little longer. Ooh. What moment do you choose? Hmm. So I think about my dog rightly, but I'm trying to which moment, though, but I still miss that guy. You know what? I'm going to go with.

My first date, like real date with Alex. It's your wife? Yeah. Where'd you go? She met me at the ferry in Seaville. We went to this restaurant. Where's Seaville? Forgive me.

Saveville, New York. New York. Okay. Yeah. That's where you take the ferry to go to Far Island. Oh, yeah. Cherry Grove. Yeah.

So, and we, yeah, we set out. on the porch or whatever at this restaurant. And it was empty. It was no one there. And, yeah, we just had a really nice little snacks and a drink and just talked. And it was really special. I'll just say that.

A little smooch in there. I got a smooch. Yeah. Wanda Sykes. Very funny lady. She has a new tour and you should go see her on it. It is called Please and Thank You. Wanda, thank you so much.

Thank you. That was fun. If you had fun with this conversation, you might want to check out my episode with another comedian, Taylor Tomlinson. She and Wanda are from different generations of comedy, but they both have this ability to interweave since, and humor into almost everything they say. Check it out. This episode was produced by Lee Hale with help from Romel Wood and Summer Tomat.

It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni. Our theme music is by Rom Teen Arablewee. You can reach out to us at wildcard at npr.org. We love it when you do. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.