Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Why Chris Pine gave up on being perfect

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Chris Pine says his directorial debut, Poolman, got "obliterated" by critics. But the Star Trek and Wonder Woman star tells Rachel that the experience helped him reevaluate his desire for perfection. Chris also debates predestination with Rachel, reflects on the struggle to feel awe and discusses his recurring childhood dreams of having tea with an elf in a tree. To listen sponsor-free, access bonus episodes and support the show, sign up for Wild Card+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hey, everybody. Just a little heads up. This episode contains a little bit of cursing. What's a goal you're glad you gave up on? Perfection. My film got absolutely decimated when it premiered in Toronto, which brings up for me one of my primary triggers or whatever is like not being liked or this idea of perfection of not creating something that is perceived as, right? I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wildcard. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped their lives.

I have joy. I experienced joy. It still gives me joy. That's it. That's enough. There is no perfect. That is perfect. And our guest today is someone you may think you have figured out.

You've seen Chris Pine on the big screen for a long time by this point, playing different versions of. of very good-looking heroes, it must be said. Most famously, he played a young Captain Kirk in a few Star Trek movies. He was Wonder Woman's boyfriend and did a star turn in one of the Jack Ryan films. To My Kids, he will always be the charming hero from the Dungeons and Dragons movie. Thank you very much. And yes, these are all guys who always save the day.

But it's clear, Chris Pine is drawn to characters who push out of masculine stereotypes. They've got a vulnerability that makes them more real. And it makes you wonder what Chris Pine would do if he got to call all the shots, if he got to create his own version of a movie hero. The answer, my friends, is Darren Barronman, or DB for short. He's the main character in Chris Pine's directorial debut Pool Man. And he has this intensely earnest guy who makes his living taking care of a pool in L.A. But he's an activist at heart, passionate about fair zoning laws and about better bus routes.

And this movie is so weird and big-hearted and holds so much humanity at the same time. I knew Chris Pine would be good at this game. Chris Pine, hi. Oh, Rachel, you, I mean, that intro, I'm going to probably keep that intro and play it to myself as I go to bed. Ernest and Big Hearted, man. That is really what it's all about. That's sort of on brown for me, too. I mean, I love an earnest, big-hearted character, and I love this guy so much.

Congratulations, by the way. Thank you very much. It really means a lot. This film is all you. This film is yours. You wrote the script with your friend. Ian Gottler. You directed this bad boy.

I did. I did. starred in it. I did. So of all the stories that you could put all that creative power behind. Yeah. Why this? This whole process of making.

pool men came from a place of my partner and I call it following the giggle and it's a feeling of delight and it's this thing that I feel like as we get older we get beaten into submission by society and culture and parents and what to do and should do's and all of this and this idea of impish play that we have as children gets lost along the way and I think this film is my ode to the part of me that wants to smile, that there's no rules or regulations to making something other than what brings me ecstatic joy. So there is this scene with the actor Stephen Tobolowski, who plays a kind of antagonist to your character.

And I don't want to give too much away, but it is just this most beautiful little gift in the middle of this wacko film. And it's about forgiveness. and it's just the most authentic way. Yeah, that, I'm so glad. I mean, the whole film to me reads like kind of free jazz or there's a lot happening and the tempo of it is kind of insane. And I wanted the film to bottom out for one moment and one scene where people shut up

and actually, actually look at one or other and talk. And I wanted it to read as if it were like two eight-year-olds on a playground, being taught by their parents how to apologize to one another and how to say like, this is what I'm going to do this and then you're going to do that. And then I'd like to hug you and then we're going to hug. But shouldn't we all just keep doing that? It's like we've forgotten actually how to forgive each other as eight-year-olds. I actually think it's exactly right.

Well, it is a wonderful, crazy journey of a movie. I appreciate you enjoying very much. I can't tell you. Yeah, I really did it. So congrats on that. Thank you very much. So how do you feel about playing the game? I love an existential card game like anyone else does.

Sweet. After a quick break, Chris Pine plays the game. Rachel, I'm a fully realized, man. Come on. In front of me is a deck of cards. Okay, dope. For each question, I'm going to show you three cards. And then you choose one at random to answer, okay?

Okay. There are two rules. So not a ton to remember. You get one skip. Okay. If you use the skip, I'm just going to swap in another question from the deck. Okay. And rule number two, you get one flip.

You can put me on the spot and ask me the question. I'll answer it, but I'm still going to ask you to answer it. I just do it before you. We're breaking it up into three rounds, okay? Memories, insights, beliefs. Okay. And there'll be a few questions in each of those rounds. and because it's a game, there's a prize at the end.

A physical prize? It is not physical. Okay. It is also existential. But I think you're going to get it. Wow. All right. I like this. Okay.

You ready? I am ready. Okay. Let's get these. We're in round one, round one. Memories, experiences, that kind of thing. I am holding three cards in my hand. One, two, three.

One. One. Yeah. Who was a peer when you were growing up, who you modeled your behavior after for better or for worse? Pass. Pass. Skip. Skip that question. Replacing it with one in the deck. What was a recurring dream you had growing up? A recurring dream I had growing up is I grew up with this beautiful sycamore tree in my front yard. and I had a dream that this elf lived in this sort of subterranean lodge that had a connection with the tree in my front yard and this like little door next to my garage. And I remember going in and having like tea with a elf.

It probably was engendered by my mother told this fantastic recurring story about this family of mice that lived in the sycamore. So I think that's probably what dropped in my brain and percolated around and flowered into that dream. I love that though, because that, it was mostly positive. Like there wasn't a version of the dream where the elf like, eh, eh, eh, eh. No, I've never had, I don't have nightmares. Thank God.

And I have anxiety dreams. Clive fantastic anxiety dreams. But no, that was the one growing up that I remember the most. Did you have, I won't probably. into the anxiety dreams, but did you have any anxiety dreams when you were young or that's mostly an adult? Sure, I did. I was a very anxious child and a pretty anxious young man and still am, but have wrestled with that demon for long enough that I think we're in a stalemate, at least for the most part now. But no, my more interesting anxiety dreams are now.

Moving on. We're still in round one. Next question. I'm getting my cards straight. One, two, three. Two. What's an experience from growing up when you realized your parents didn't have all the answers? I remember very distinctly I was 16 years old maybe and I was driving. My father was driving is 1984 gray sob 900, which is a, fucking beautiful car. I have so many memories of that car. And even when my dad was broke,

he continually spent more money trying to make that car work much to my mother's chagrin. Anyway, but we're traveling south on Laurel Canyon Boulevard. I know exactly where it is. And I remember my father saying something and I turned him in the passenger seat. I looked at him And it was as if like the shroud of the impenetrable parental aura dissipated and left. And I knew in an instant that he was a boy that became a man. It was so far out. It was so, so far out. Wait, but what precipitated it?

I have no idea. I don't remember that. Oh, really? I just remember that distinct feeling, like that really distinct feeling. Yeah. So did that make you feel unmoored? How do I say this? I think I'd taken care of myself for a very long time, I think, at that point.

So I think it was more of a intellectual moment than it was some sort of kind of emotional moment. We're finished with round one, and now we're on round two. And this is a new deck of cards. I know. It's moving. This is the insights round, okay?

Things you've learned or things you are learning. You're not learning anything. You're not learning anything? Rachel, I'm a fully realized, man. Come on. You got no struggles. No. I don't believe.

I'll go to one. I'll go to the... This one. Yeah. Yeah. What's a lesson you have to keep learning over and over? To be in awe always. In reverentia semper.

To be in awe always. What's yours? Whoa. I mean, I'll tell you mine, but that I want to sit with that. That's beautiful, though. Mine's not as lofty or, I mean, I just, I'm an innately impatient person. I get that. Where does the impatience come from? Are you a perfectionist?

No, absolutely not. Oh, my God. I wish I were more of a perfectionist. You've never been a perfection. Zero, never, ever. So what is the impatience from? Time. I'm urgent about time. I want to use it well. I hate wasting time. And I just want to get on with it. But so it's a constant struggle of like, I want to get on with things, but also you need to sit and find reverence and awe and everything, right? Well, again, you talk about need, need to, need to me reminds me of the word should.

When I should, which I detest the word should. So I don't think you need to do a fucking thing. I think, you know, honestly, it's like what makes you happiest. Yeah. But so I'm resting this away from you. What are you, do you find yourself in points when you can't recognize awe and reverence? Of course I do. I'm on the fucking daily.

Of course I do. Oh my God. Oh, my God. I'm impatient as well. And oftentimes feel this kind of like oblique background, static energy of need should go, do what's happening. why isn't it this, why isn't it that? All of these things that are saying, the present moment is not fulfilling X.

I was talking to my therapist about this, and I was like, I want to be in flow state again. Like making this movie was flow state 24-7, 365. Well, what is flow state other than a complete disappearance of the overwhelming reality of the march of time? We go into flow state to forget about our mortality. No, but you can't live there forever. Otherwise, it doesn't exist.

You can't live there forever and take everything away. What are you left with? You're left with sitting here now. So you better get really good at dealing with getting good with boredom, getting good with frustration, getting good with all of that. Yeah. All right. We're moving three new cards.

Still in Insights. One, two, three. Two. Two. What's a goal you're glad you gave up on? Perfection. That really was a goal? Yeah. In everything or in a particular project?

No, no, no. I had this. I was a very hard-driving boy and men. And, you know, and I think actually, coming back to my phone, my film got absolutely just decimated when it got. premiered in Toronto, just like obliterated. I didn't read any of it. This movie, Poolman. Yeah, I didn't read any of them, thank God. But I heard enough to know that people really didn't like it.

Which brings up for me one of my primary triggers or whatever is like not being liked or this idea of perfection of not creating something that is perceived as, right? Yeah, yeah. So in many ways, this journey thus far with this has been so. great to remember I had joy, I experienced joy, it still gives me joy, that's it, that's enough. There is no perfect. That is perfect. There's nothing more perfect than that. And that perfect cannot be contained. You can't write about it. You can't put it in a box. You can't give it any sort of award. It's much more special than that. As an art is, what is perfect art is laughable. It's laughable. It's

antithetical. We're going to take a quick break then we get a glimpse into Chris Pine's psyche. One of my defense mechanisms is being cerebral, using words to block the emotion. Last round, round three. So this is beliefs. This is the stuff that helps you make sense of the world. Okay, one, two, three. Three. Is there anything in your life that has felt predestined? Do I have another skip? Uh-uh. I find this a boring question, unfortunately. I'll ask you.

I want you to engage on why. Did you ever think about becoming a psychologist? Did you ever get into, did you study psychology? Nope. But I am super curious about people. You never wanted to get into that line of work? No, because I get frustrated with, So I'm going to flip it on you. What is yours?

Anything felt predestined? Well, I have, I don't know how I feel about destiny in general. Interesting. And if that's a concept that serves me. I also don't necessarily think that everything serendipitous that happens to me is coincidence. I'm not so interested in just dismissing those things, those synchronicities in life that are, I'd like to see more meaning in those. And so was it predestined that I met my husband a few months after my mom died when I was like swearing off all romantic life? I don't know. That predestined feels like a really big, heavy word for it. But, um, But it sort of feels like it has a glimmer of that, if that makes sense. Like, maybe I was supposed to meet him then. I don't know if that fulfills the definition of something that's predestined, but that's my answer.

But you came up with these questions, no? With help. Then why choose this question about predestination? Oh, because lots of people have, lots of people are very interested in this idea and have real answers that say affirmatively, yes. Things feel very as they were meant to be for me. So I, like you, prefer the story of synchronicity having meaning. That is much more delightful to me than the opposite. I would rather not believe in entropy and chaos, and I would rather believe, no, there is

something to that. There is something more important than us happening, because that gives me, that takes some of the onus of being alive off my shoulders. So religion, religion to me makes a lot of sense. I don't engage with it personally, but it makes a lot of sense. So the idea of predestination on a very, on topic, poolman felt predestined, but let me, let me explain that. I call it like a snowball. The snowball starts growing, and at a certain point, the snowball is so fucking large, just falling down the hill. He can't do anything about the snowball falling out.

You just get out of its way and let the whatever snowball, rock, whatever, fall down the hill. That's what acting is felt like. That's what writing and directing and acting in this film has felt like. That idea of it being faded, I totally buy it. Huh. And that compromise surrendering, I mean, you had total agency over this film. You made this film. But in some ways, it got to a point where it took on a life of its own and then you just let it happen?

No, let me again explain. The process of, like, I had this idea. I tried to find a screenwriter who fell through. I wrote the thing, couldn't stop thinking about it. I may as well direct it. Predestine, I'm not sure. Somehow faded and like there was no other thing that could be happening. Yes.

to your second point about the the the it took on a life of its own um one of my defense mechanisms is being cerebral using words to block the emotion and so this this film this process of making this film was a way for me to to simply follow instinct simply follow emotion So this idea of like it came out. This is what this is what my brain and body wanted to do collectively together. It was the most harmonious in that regard, which is not an answer to your question. No, but I like to where it went. Last one.

Okay. Last one. Okay. One, two, three. Three new cards. Pick a card. One through three. Has your idea of what it means to be a good person changed over time?

is my idea of what it means to be a good person. Ooh, changed time. Let me go Jackson Pollock this for a second. So the way that I hear that to be a good person, I like this idea. I remember learning it when I was learning some form of meditation. And I think it's a Buddhist meditation, but the loving kindness meditation.

Where do you start? You start with yourself. So a lot of what I hear that question as is how, my evolving sense of what it means to be a good person is to begin by being as kind as you can to yourself. And hopefully from embracing yourself that deeply, that love transmits itself outward. Do you see that manifesting in your external relationships?

When you are kinder to yourself, does your life get better? Do your relationships get better? Yes, of course. I mean, you talk about frustration. I think that kind of like, I also think about the idea of the fist is not a closed fist. It's not an open fist. It's a fist at the ready. The fist at the ready can do anything.

It can clench. It can be as like delicate as a ballet dancer. You want to be supple. So becoming supple allows for anything to happen. You can ride whatever wave is thrown at you. If you're rigid and things aren't conforming to what you need it to be right now, it makes you miserable and you getting miserable, then you become miserable.

It can be to other people. So, yeah, I have found for sure that I've, yeah, I'm marching more, I think, in that direction. You won the game. I want to, what did I want to hug? A virtual hug. Hey! Yay! You won a hug, but you also won a trip in our memory time machine.

Awesome. So this is the deal with the memory time machine. You get to revisit one moment from your past that you would not change anything about. You just want to linger there a little bit longer. What moment do you choose? I was in my front yard four years ago, and it was one of these days in spring where it's like it doesn't know whether or not it wants to be hot or warm if it's raining and cloudy or sunfilled in Los Angeles. And it was the first bloom of my flowers in my front yard, and I had this great big garden that kind of looks like controlled chaos. It's like it's like a wonderland of plant life.

And I'm standing in like a foot of warm water, and I'm looking up at the sky, and the clouds, break and there's this this like gentle rain of water coming down and the sun comes crests over this um this gray cloud and shines its gorgeous light through all of these very delicate raindrops that are coming down and i swear to god it was like it was like communing with god it was like a moment of talk about being in awe it was like what on earth um That was how awesome it is to be alive. Chris Pine, his new movie that he wrote, directed in Starsen, is called Pool Man. Chris, this was great. Thank you.

Thank you very much. If you want more from Chris Pine, we've got a bonus wildcard plus episode available now. Chris talks about the tension between being an introvert and being a movie star. One of my most favorite lines that have ever said in a part is I was raised to be charming, not sincere. And that resonates very deeply with me. You'll also get to hear last week's guest, Issa Ray, answer an extra question. Wildcard Plus is a new way to support our work here at NPR. And you get perks, like sponsor-free listening and bonus episodes with more from our guests.

Check out Wild Card Plus by going to plus.npr.org slash wildcard. Next week on Wildcard, we hear from Poet Laureate Ada Limon. Do you think there's more to reality than we can see or feel? 100,000 million percent. Yes. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard with help from Lauren Gonzalez. It was fact-checked by Susie Cummings and mastered by Maggie Luthar. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan.

Our theme music is by Romteen Arablewee. You can reach out to us at Wildcard at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.