Wild Card with Rachel Martin - Willem Dafoe

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

Willem Dafoe sees acting as a form of service – both to the audience and to his coworkers making a movie. That selfless approach means he’s also on guard for anything that can inflate his ego, including, he tells Rachel, sounding too pompous in interviews. “Don’t let me talk too much!” he jokes with her. They discuss his highly productive year, including his film “Late Fame,” and why he loves putting the animals on his farm to bed every night.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

I'm a terrible liar. And when I'm disturbed, people know it? Yeah, maybe I'm a bad actor. Well, definitely sometimes. You've got to be a bad actor to be a good actor. I'm convinced. Ones that are good all the time are no good. To live a good life, I think you have to extend yourself to other people.

And, you know, we got to walk each other home. That's the phrase that I always think of, you know. And it sounds kind of Pollyanna and all sweet, but deeply, I think that's true. We're here for each other for now. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card. The show where Cards Control the Conversation. My guest this week is Willem Defoe. Willem Defoe was never the kind of actor to play it safe.

He never shied away from using his face and his voice to make people feel like something dangerous might happen. That could mean playing a misunderstood scientist in the Art House film, poor things or the Green Goblin in Spider-Man blockbusters. His desire to keep challenging himself has made him incredibly productive at the age of 71. He has five films coming out in the second half of this year, including his most recent movie, late fame. I'm so happy to welcome Willem Defoe to Wildcard. Hi. Hi. Hi. I'm good. How are you?

Good. Yeah. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I've got to see what this is, but we should be good. It's going to be fun. It's going to be something. It's going to be an experience. I feel like you're a guy who's up for an experience. That's it. That's it. That's the mantra.

Good, bad or ugly? That's the mantra. So the first round is memories. I'm going to pull three cards and you pick randomly. One, two, or three. Two. Two. What did you think adulthood would look like when you were a kid?

Oh, my God. Listen, when I was a kid, No, the tricky part about being a kid is you don't get that far. Or at least I didn't. I came from a big family, and I was, it wasn't really until I was a teenager that I started thinking, you know, there would be a world outside my family and I would go out into the world. So I didn't have, I didn't know. You didn't have a template? I mean, I had my parents.

An imaginary template. No, I had my parents as models who worked and loved what they did. I had older brothers and sisters, but there was no model for me. So it was really, even when I, you know, sort of gravitated towards performing and making things, I wasn't sure I could make a living at it. I wasn't very career-minded. I always thought that I'd do something else, but I'd find it later in life. So I had no picture.

When did you start to imagine that performing could actually be a way you made a living? That came last night. When you lived at your bank account, you're like, this is working out. What's a living? What's a living? No, you know, once I don't know, because I had a very unusual path becoming a performer. I mean, I went to school very briefly, and then I started working in very small theaters doing kind of non-traditional work. So that wasn't popular.

That wasn't, you couldn't really monetize that, particular in the... the time I was growing up. So I didn't know. I was just, when I was young, I was just doing everything for the moment. I wasn't that career-minded. I was ambitious. I came from a kind of culture in the Midwest that you had to do something. You had to make your way in the world, you know. So I did feel that pressure, but I was not a kid that, you know, had a picture of Marlon Brando, you know, in his room when he was a kid, or that watched a lot of movies. Actually. Is that right?

No, I liked performing a lot and, you know, I did plays and things when I was a kid. And I knew I liked to do that, but I didn't know anyone that was in the movies or even anybody that made their living as an actor. So it was very far from me. What propelled you to leave school and move to New York? Well, I was working even before that. I was working even before that with a small company. And I just liked working with people, you know, in a collaborative way.

I like performing, and I like the idea of creating something that didn't exist before. And New York, for me, I moved there because it felt like Mecca. So I went toward that because New York was the place to catch what was going on. Let's move to the next question and see what happens here. One, two, or three? One. One. What did you reject as a teenager?

I was pretty sweet, God-fearing, obedient kid, but something snapped when I was a teenager. And the kind of pressure to conform to certain things really was heavy where I grew up. It was a great place to grow up to a certain point. But I found that once you stepped out of certain kinds, kind of norm, people really came down on you. And I wanted to get away from that. So I rejected a kind of conformity that I felt was oppressive and unjust. Can I ask you for an example of how you... That's a little heavy when I hear myself saying that. I grew up in a very small conservative town in Idaho. I understand what that can feel like. And I have my own examples, but what did that

conformity feel like to you? What specifically was the life plan maybe that was laid out for you that you didn't want? You know, I just felt like, yeah, a certain kind of, you weren't encouraged to experiment. You were, soundly, you were, if something wasn't popular, it was regarded useless. And there was too much emphasis on function rather than exploration. And you didn't find other people? Like usually you can find a couple other people on the fringe. Sure, they were there. They were there.

Yeah. But you went to, like as I say, you went to places that when I first came to New York, I assumed I would try to be a conventional actor, you know. But then I looked around and I found myself just going. down to downtown performances and off performances and watching dance and kind of non-traditional music stuff. And that's what turned me on. I wanted to be with those people because I felt like they were speaking to something

that interested me. And I was a pretty square kid from the Midwest, and I felt like that was learning new things. Can you tell me about the Worcester Group? Yes, they were the people that, you know, I got in a room and we made stuff with. That became a family. And there was little separation between life and work. And in fact, the director was someone that I spent 27 years with and had a son with. Elizabeth Lecomte, yeah.

Yeah, Elizabeth Lecomte. And so it was a big part of my life, and it really formed me in many ways. As a person, as an actor, it was very important. I learned very basic things about what turned me on and what I wasn't interested in. So it shaped me. It helped you, I imagine, continue to make choices. Because now you're this big blockbuster, starring actor, you know, come here, baby. It's true, it's true.

A-list, whatever the hell that means. And I imagine that experience with that group has kept you grounded to some degree. Well, not only because, you know, it was initially when we started out, we were quite, I don't know, we were popular in the community maybe, but outside of that, we would get terrible, you know, dismissive notices in the New York Times. And then people in Europe started bringing us over and commissioning works. And then people from the states started to see the reception we were getting in Europe. And then all of a sudden, everything shifted and we were more accepted. So I know while the work didn't change so much, people changed. So it's all about having fun and being engaged and the quality.

of loving the work you do and enjoying the people around you. That's what it really established for me. When I hear someone talk about career or they talk about being in the industry, to this day, I don't relate to it. And maybe that smacks of a certain snobbery. I don't mean to, but I really just don't think that way. It's a case-by-case business, just like at the Worcester Group. We weren't a rich company. And every time we made a piece for a long time, it felt like it was going to be our last.

Yeah. That never happened. After many years, we said that's a little ridiculous to think like that. We'd go on. But it formed me in a lot of ways. It was very important. You do think you have a career, though, right? I mean, you just said people.

Yes, yes. But let's not call it that. Okay. Last one in this round, one, two, or three, Willem. One. One. What's a mistake you made early in your career? There's no such thing as mistakes. I don't believe you're going to be one of those people who tells me that.

Are you really going to tell me that? Listen, I put it out there to try it on for size. Listen, I don't know. No. Listen, if you survive them, they aren't mistakes. I mean, I am one of those people that I don't try to make mistakes, but you learn from mistakes. Yeah, I've made mistakes, but you don't dwell on them.

You learn, they shape your intuition, I think. So I have nothing juicy for you there. I'm intentionally skipping that one, and I'm asking you a different one from this round. That's fair. Listen, I'm a dud with some of these things. I'm happy to talk, but sometimes I can't give good answers to your... I get it.

I get it. And I understand the idea that nothing is, that regrets are difficult because it all makes us who we are in the end. I understand that perspective. Listen, I just, I'm thinking about if I really answer, really apply myself to that question, I don't have an answer. Yeah, that's fair enough. That is a fair answer. Yeah. I can hardly remember what I did yesterday. Look at it, you're like, well, that was easy. I'm just going to. Tell her I can't remember anything. Okay, this one, I guess this one. When was a time when you weren't sure what the next step in your life should be? Probably when I left the Worcester Group. Really?

Why'd you leave? Because, well, I started living in Italy, and I, I, um, I, um, I, uh, married an Italian woman, which took me away from that circle socially. And when I started making movies, there were two possibilities. One was that they would continue to work and cut out something for me. But because I wasn't there, the process wasn't the same. So I'd rather have a rule that wasn't so demanding or engaging, but kept me in the piece. or they'd have to wait until I came back,

which had a bad effect on the work. So it became a schedule thing. People were happy and also socially. At the beginning, people were like, great, they wanted to know the stories about the movies and all that. Sure, you had to tell us about Hollywood. But after a while, I'd come back. I always took the red eye back

because I'd be working the next morning with the group because we worked every day pretty much. And after a while, it was like, they didn't want to hear anything. So there was socially a little bit of a split. And I think that was hard. Yeah. I imagine there had to have been some degree of sadness or grief around closing that particular chapter of your life.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think so, yeah. Yeah. But it's also good because it changes your situation. Your sense of who you are and what gets reflected back to who you are changes. And I think that keeps you flexible and it's a good way to avoid corruption sometimes. You don't design it that way.

But when you have changes in your life, it really cleans out your kind of rigid idea of who you are. And your ego, I imagine. If you only associate yourself. Which is a little ridiculous. Because, you know, when we talk about ego and performing, but the truth is, you know, it has to be, I don't want to say destroyed, but, you know, the worst, the thing that you have to do when you're making things is forget about yourself in a funny way. And particularly as an actor and habit, a point of view, feelings, a whole way of being that's not necessarily you. And if you are too invested in who you are or too obsessed with, you know, too egotistical, you can't consider other ways of being.

Thank you for that answer. Well, it's goofy because if you're thinking about these things, you don't want to get too sanctimonious about it. But for me, that's part of the challenge, you know, a certain kind of to a arrive at some sort of place where you're open-hearted and open-minded and you're not, you know, I don't think in terms of position or ideas or choices, I think you come to a project, you come to a situation, and you see what space there is to make something. And you try to not be, to sell anything. You try to have something happen to you, to have an experience. And if that experience is done sincerely, I think that's when people can be with you when you're performing.

Yeah. And not feel like you're using them to validate something in you. You're trying to give them something. So you're like the dancer around the campfire. You're doing it, you know, to, you know, it has to do with a certain kind of liberation of self. you know, performing. Yeah. And that's what, you know, motivates me.

Yeah. I want to talk more about what motivates you. I know so much more. I'm getting serious. I know. That's the magic questions. Okay. Keep, don't let me talk so much.

I saw an episode of this and you were a good interview. So get in my face a little bit. All right. Fine. You've opened the door. So here I'll go. Before we start round to you, I'm going to pull out of the game and let's talk about your most recent movie.

You have so many movies. It's hard to just focus on one. But let's talk about late fame. It was a lovely experience to watch that movie, by the way. You saw it. I did indeed. Okay, good. So this is a movie about a fictional poet named Ed Saxberger.

And he falls away from a creative life. I'm just summarizing here. And then kind of gets a glimmer of it again. And the whole story was inspired by an actual novella, right? An actual... Arthur Schnitzler, who is a famous Austrian writer. And this, I read this novella because a friend of mine, Danny Zippy, gave it to me and said, I think this is a movie.

And I was carrying it around with me. And I was intending to find out who had the rights because I read it and I thought, yes, this is a movie. just given the themes and I felt some kind of special contact with some kind of relationship to the material. And then it turned out there was already a movie being cast that I didn't know about. And I was on a plane and I ran into the director, but I didn't know it yet. So I had this novella in my backpack. We sat the whole flight from L.A. to New York talked about everything in the world, but late

fame. No way. And then two days later, yeah, two days later, he called me and said, listen, I've got a project called Late Fame, and I'd like you to play the part of Ed Saxburg or the lead role. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I know this. I know this material. And then I found out the, it is wild. And then I found out the original material, you know, is set in Austria, in Vienna, in a different

time and the script was updated to New York present day. And I thought, oh, I don't know. But then I read the script written by Sammy Birch. And it was really interesting because it expressed some of the things that are in the air for me about, not just about fame, but about change, about change and about recognition and the corruption that comes with flattery. how you can get seduced by believing you're it. And as we were talking about before, that's something you've got to fight all the time. Yeah.

So just to give a little more plot for people, this is a guy at Saxberger who was famous for a moment. He had his moment. He published this. Not even famous. We don't even know that. Oh, we don't even know if he was famous. No, we know he was a guy in the poetry scene.

He wrote one. volume of poetry. And he did readings and he was in a poetry scene. And then the scene went away. Yeah. We're assuming. And he got a job at the post office and continued working at the post office. As his friends at the bar has a very solitary life, probably lives in a rent control department. And he's not unhappy, but it's not that life anymore. He's not he's not, he's not, he's not, engaging with that kind of artistic pursuit. He doesn't have a creative life.

And then, well, he may have a creative life, but not an artistic one. That's right. Good clarification. So then this guy comes and says, hey, you're crazy. You're an inspiration for us. You know, you have to visit us.

We're a group of poets and young writers, and we're very, you know, we'd be honored if you come and hang out with us. You just recognize us him on the street. And then decides it. Well, he has the volume of his poems, and he's totally into it. And I initially am not that crazy about the idea, or it seems confusing to me. And then I check it out because I'm curious enough. And then I kind of get sucked into this world.

And then they have a reading, and then I have the possibility of writing again. I'm still working at the post office. I still have my friends, but something is starting to shift. And then you have the Greta Lee character who's part of this poetry group, but she's an actress and there's a slight flirtation there. And it's got a lot of interesting events in it. I mean, I can just draw obvious parallels, right? Like you are an older actor of a certain age and looking back on a career and the nostalgia of that. But your career is obviously so different than that.

this fictional writer who... But there were certain elements, the main element, that kind of flattery, you know, because we had a little meta thing because this group of poets is mostly young actors that are starting out. They have great training. They've come from some of the best schools.

Oh, in real life, the guys who played the group. The actors, yeah. So there was a meta aspect to it, where, you know, it's not a big budget movie with trailers and all that. We shot in the cold of winter. So we're always going off into restaurants, you know, to get warmer or little places.

You know, we don't, we're together. And we're eating together and we're hanging out together. And inevitably, after a while, they start to ask me about your career. Ask me to tell war stories, you know. And I find myself getting sucked into it. So that was a real, you know, that really fueled that understanding of, how you get seduced into thinking, you know, your experiences are elevated or important to other people. What happens if they are, though? Like they are?

They, you know, it's probably better not to, you know, people have to find their own way and it really does become you and it fortifies something about thinking there's something special about you. And you have to fight that, you have to fight that, you have to fight that, on all levels, I think. So did you ever want to be famous? I mean, I know you wanted to be an actor, but was there anything about fame, if you're being honest with yourself, that was attractive? Can I tell you, my friends tell me, like, if they're interviewed for, you know, a piece on me and they talk about way back when, they all say yes. They'll say, wow, wow, he was ambitious and he wanted to be in the movies. I don't remember that. I really don't.

You know, we all crave attention. We all crave validation. We all crave what can be seen as a successful life because it's our, you know, it's the trick to think that's going to make us happy. But we know better than that. It's the old story. I'm living the old story. Yeah.

Has there been a cost to your fame that you would prefer have not been required to pay? No, I don't think so. Yeah. All is good. I mean, you know, there are certain things that are not nice about, you know, doing a work that's public. But people are generally very sweet to me, I must say. And, you know, that's great. it gives me energy.

I don't live for that, but when you get it, it's really touching when people genuinely you know, you know, tell you that they, you gave them something. So that's ultimately a gift to me.

And that gives me energy and makes me feel useful. And, you know, we all have the same problems. We all want the same thing. And somehow, to live a good life, I think you have to extend yourself to other people. And, you know, we got to walk each other home. That's the phrase that I

always think of, you know, and it sounds kind of Pollyanna and all sweet, but deeply, I think that's true. We're here for each other, for now, because it's short, it's uncertain. So the least you can do is try to extend yourself, share experience, and listen to other people, and also, Help where you can. Yeah. Wow. That's beautiful. I don't mean to flatter you or to pump your ego.

But walking each other home, walking each other home is a lovely, is a lovely visual. I like that because, you know, walk each other home means there's no other agenda. It's just to be with each other and get people to where they feel safe and where they feel good. So I do need to acknowledge that you've been very busy. you have many, many movies out. Is there one in particular that has captured your imagination? I mean, just in the next few wolf, you got Tenzing, you got Werewolf. Yeah.

When you release, you got a Gonzo Girl, you got. A couple of Gonzo Girl. There's a little movie that's been playing around. It's not in theaters here, but Les Sufler. There's, you know, one of the nice things is I've been able to. work in big things and small things and mix it up. And I think that keeps me from, you know, going to the same well all the time. And also, it keeps you flexible. It keeps you flexible in the respect that you don't get used to working one way. Yeah. I read that in some other interview you said

that you need, you need to not do the same role again. Like you need to learn a new thing. Not just the same role. You've got to have, every time you do a movie, your function in that movie is different. Not only the role, but where you fit as a puzzle piece and what we're all trying to do. And that's one of your biggest jobs. And it's something that people don't talk about. Everybody thinks acting is one thing. Acting is not one thing.

Acting is doing. And doing requires knowing what has to be done, what your obligation is, what you're What your, where is the space that you're supposed to contribute? And you find. What is your service in this project? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's, and when everybody does that, then it's a beautiful shoot. And I find, you know, the fun shoots, the lovi-dovey shoots aren't always the best movies. that's not what I'm saying. But I always feel like if the movie, the final product feels like the experience of making the movie, then it's a good movie. People may like it, people may not like it, but then it's, you know,

it's got an authenticity that is important because that goes beyond. It is what it is then. and it goes beyond the whims of popular taste and all that. Because when you work for a while, you realize some beautiful movies get ignored and some terrible movies get elevated. Right.

So you have to ignore both. Yeah. Yeah. It depends on a lot of different elements. Yeah. But when you see that happen, you say, well, where am I going to put my money? You know, where am I going to put my energy?

Where am I going to put? You do it with stuff that feels, for lack a better word, authentic. Round two, Willem Defoe, one, two, or three? Three. Three. Are you good at asking for help? I'm learning. That's a no.

Yeah. Tell me. No, it's no secret. I think it's a product of, you know, there's a whole thing of masculine. about being self-sufficient. And the truth is, I'm not. And so asking for help, you're encouraged to, or at least I was the way I grew up to, you know, take care of yourself. Yeah.

You know, don't, don't lean on other people. Don't, you know, don't be a problem. Don't, that's part of that repression that I was talking about. Yeah. And there's a good side to it. because it encourages you not to be a pain in the ass. Right. And it, yeah, and there's a part of it that respects other people.

But I think, no. Can you give me an example of something you have not wanted to ask for help for in the past, and now you're coming around? I'm learning more because there's some things like technologically. for example, my wife is much more technological than I, so I always have to ask for her help. I think that's a good start. That's a good start.

That does sound kind of poultry like nothing. But I tried to personalize it. You did. You're trying very hard, and I really appreciated it. It didn't really fly, did it? But you have a far. Like, did you know how to be a farmer? You, like, have, like, real animals in Italy on a farm.

That really, that is a good example because I have to learn a lot. And I have to, I'm very humbled by how much I have to learn. And that's part of it because, yeah, I have to learn a lot. So I have to trust other people to tell me things. And then I have to try it out for myself. But, yeah, I can ask for help. I'll change that answer if I may. But please.

I'm all about people changing their mind with better information or better recollection. That's the big thing. We all got to be good at accepting change. That's the big one. What's your favorite farm tour out of curiosity? Mostly I like putting the animals to bed at night. I never recruit to me that you put animals to bed. You're cleaning up shit too.

I mean, it's so metaphorical. How can you resist? No, putting them, you know, because generally you put them out in the fields and things. And then at night, of course, you close them in because there are a lot of predators. And also they sleep and they eat at night what they haven't eaten in the pasture. So there's something beautiful about them seeing me. and having 35 goats and sheep stampeding toward me to open the door to their little place to sleep. Sounds nice.

They need your help. They need you to be the helper in that moment. No, they're helping me. That's the idea. Next three. One, two, three. Three. What's something you love that no one else in your life gets?

That's a really good question. Do you have an answer? You know, I like, no, I'll go back to the farm. Or I like simple tasks sometimes. I get a great pleasure out of them. And I think that's the connection. There's a connection to performing. I've talked about it before, but truly,

I'm never happier than washing dishes or cleaning up the animal shit or doing simple tasks where there's an A, B, C, and you can live in the simplicity of those tasks. And are there people in your life? Some people are like, oh, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. That's dead time for me.

For me, it's a good meditation. Yeah. I imagine, though, that that would not be, that it only works because it's one half of your life or maybe even less a quarter. Yeah, if I had to do it all the time, maybe not. But I see people that, like, work with me on the farm, and there's a beautiful grace to what they do

because they surrender to these tasks. And it puts them in touch with nature, and it puts them in touch with, you know, what's going on and the rise and fall of things. And that, if you can accomplish that, that's one of the difficulties of living in the city, you know. We have a rise and fall, but it's not controlled by us, or it is controlled by people,

where in the country, the rise and fall all comes from nature. Last one in this round, one, two, three? Let's go with three again. Are you good at concealing your emotions, or do people find you easy to read? I'm so easy to read. Are you? Yeah.

I don't know. I know, like I'm a terrible liar. And when I'm disturbed, people know it. Yeah, maybe I'm a bad actor. But definitely sometimes you've got to be a bad actor to be a good actor. I'm convinced. Ones that are good all the time are no good. They're at a safe level.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you're a bad liar. What was the question? What was the question? I forgot too. How embarrassing. Are you good at concealing your emotions are easy to read?

Easy to read. You're a bad liar. I think I'm a bad liar. The point is I don't, you know, sometimes people write about my face or my voice or my body. you know, I, you know, people can usually tell what's on my mind. I can't hide. Not because I'm trained at it, not because of any psychological makeup. There's something physiologically about me that things sometimes show without me even wanting

them to show. I wondered, do you ever, since you brought it up, do you ever get annoyed at all the talk about your, oh, his face and his voice. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. Sure, because, you know, nobody knows, unless they do it, how movies I make. Nobody knows unless they're doing it about performing. So there's a lot of mythology out there that just isn't my experience.

So what it does is it separates you out from them because you think, well, they don't know. Yeah. You know, so when they say, when they concentrate on certain things too much, or they have a kind of idea about what performing is, and it doesn't respond to what you feel, then, I don't know, it's distancing. Yeah, negative. Well, what do you think? Do you think I'm easy to read?

I think I've very much enjoyed this conversation, and when I do, it is because a person is pretty easy to read. And I mean that as a compliment. It means that. I got it. I always get nervous. I'm having a good time talking to someone. I get nervous.

I'm revealing too much or I'm loving what I'm saying too much. I don't quite feel that. But it's dangerous. I mean, I get it. It's weird. Let's, you know. Let's keep a doubt. We were just too close.

Let's just. Yeah, yeah. Let's cool things down. Well, I don't know if this round's going to do it because these are the big questions. But, you know, let's just go. One, two or three. Oh, God. I thought we did the big question.

No, these are even bigger. What was coming? What's your favorite color? That's not on here. One. One. What's your relationship with time? Really.

For real. Time is the trickiest thing in the world. One thing, no, I'm getting very conscious because it gets reflected back at me. Listen, a guy came to me. I was having lunch the other day. I had just flown in from someplace, and I was a little tired, and I didn't feel like cooking. I just got to my place in New York, and I went to a place close by. And the guy was, it was like between lunch and dinner, and I was eating there.

All the people were in the back folding napkins and all that. It was empty. But there was one guy over there, and he came up, and he came over, and he said, Hey, I saw the second Spider-Man the other day, and I hadn't seen the first. You were really good. You were a great green goblin. And then someone told me that you were in platoon. And I thought, wow, isn't it great that we recognize, you know, you guys that have been doing this for a long time,

that we recognize what they've done before they're gone? Is that strange to you? I mean, he was talking to you about your imminent demise. Death. And that seems like an odd way to make chit-chat with a famous actor that you spied in the diner. But, I mean, it sounds like he was being genuine. Maybe, maybe. But do I think about time?

Do you think about getting old? Yeah. I think about, you know, I'm very. conscious of getting older because it gets reflected back to me by people. I don't feel old. Everything's, you know, fine. I know a lot of dead people because, as I say, it's a big line in late fame and it's maybe a kind of spoiler, but it comes from my life. Once in an interview, I was describing how, you know, a relationship to New York and a relationship to time. and I said, I used to be the youngest one in every group.

And then it seems like overnight, I became the oldest one. And I'm kind of dealing with that because your position in the tribe changes. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So that's a relationship to time. But you say it's only because it's reflected back to you. You don't internally feel the time, huh? Not really. because I think, you know, there's something missing in my brain.

And I, no, really. Really? I, no, I feel like I've got a selective memory. And that's a good thing for me because whenever I start a project, I don't carry other projects with me, you know? I don't have a bag of tricks because I can't remember that bag of tricks. That made me think of finding Nemo. And then I remember, because Dory always forgets, it's her trick as the goldfish.

and then I remember that you were in it. Yes. Well, call me Dory. It is a good trick, though, to wipe the slate clean. It's, you know, slightly Buddhist. But it's not a trick of my choosing necessarily because it just happens, it seems. So back to time, it's interesting getting older, but it's a little, you know, you're just further down the line. So you think a lot more about where things are going.

Yeah, yeah. But it's okay, you know, as long as you have these moments and you try to connect the moments where you feel like, oh, this is great, or you really feel everything that's beautiful about being this gift of having a life in this body. If you can connect more and more of those, then it's okay. Then you don't worry so much about where it's all going.

Yeah. One, two, or three? One. One. Is there inherent goodness in everyone? Yes. Great. Is that ever a difficult belief to hold for you?

Or is that actually like a guiding principle for you? I don't think about it, but I think, you know, when I said before, you know, we all want the same thing. We all have the same problem. the second that we're born were, you know, dying. So that's at the center of everybody's lives. And like when I go in New York, go to the subway or something, and I look around, I think, you know, we know a lot of bad behavior. We read shocking things.

Horrible things are going on in the world. There are bad people. But it's kind of a miracle that they, don't all wake up and kill each other. I thought that that story was going to end in a different way. And what messes things up is identity and a kind of righteousness or permission to do violence or think your life is more important than another person's. But even those people, I think, have some sort of goodness.

I don't know everybody. I know. I don't know everybody. But I also think. And I've been a very lucky person. I probably wouldn't feel like that if I had been fucked over, you know, a million times like some people have. Yeah. So.

Yeah. Last one. One, two, or three. Two. Two. Have you ever experienced a divine power? Every day, baby. Come on.

Really? Yes. Yeah. That's your earnest answer? That's my earnest answer. Why the hell not? Yeah. Why the hell not?

Like I said, yeah. Everything's a miracle. You know, when I look at you, even though you're on a screen here, what's how I see you, is a million functions going on in my eye that I don't even control. There are all kinds of things that are working in my body. that I don't control. It's kind of amazing. When I see how animals live, I see how nature is,

there's a system at work that is beyond. The design of things is beyond. And the word divinity fits for you, not just wonder at the marvel of living, but... Wonder is divinity because it puts you in touch with... I wonder, I wonder. I wonder how it all got this way. And there does seem to be some sort of order in the universe, in our little lives, in our little town, and our little house, and our little body, and our little toilet, and our whatever.

And that order, I didn't make it up. It does exist. And it's kind of amazing. You painted me into a corner on that one. I did not. You did. There's always the worry that you said, used the word earnest before. Yeah.

And I'm an actor. Nobody wants to hear what I think, really. I express myself through what I do. And then this is a perfect example of being seduced into thinking what you, people want to hear what you have to say. Yeah, I can see that. It's tough. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I get that.

Go on the end. go on, you know, Instagram or whatever, and, you know, everybody's got, you know, is at the center of their own universe. I know. I really want to get away from that. I get it. And this is not helping on that respect. Which is like a joke because I'm an actor. And part of my livelihood is trying to make movies that people connect with and want to see.

Willem DeFoe, we end the show the same way every time with a trip at our memory time machine. in the time machine. You revisit one moment from your past, but it's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose? When I was a little kid, I lived on the outskirts of a little town of 50,000.

And they started building. I was on the edge of town. And they started building houses, you know, around me. It was country, and then it became city. And when I was a little kid in all my free time, I would play in these half-constructed houses. And there was great pleasure in that.

That's a childhood memory that I like a lot. That's all. Willem Defoe, you can see him in his latest movie, Late Fame. Thank you. This has been so fun. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.